Ideas to improve Fort Aspenwood

No, I never said that the map was fair, but I've never complained about it.

Thinking a few changes should happen doesn't mean I'm complaining about it.
It would just make the map better and a bit more fun in my own own opinion.


See above. kthx.

Well of the Profane

Campaign: Core
Profession: Necromancer
Attribute: Death Magic
Type: Well Spell

25 Energy 3 Activation 10 Recharge
Exploit nearest corpse to create a Well of the Profane at its location. For 8...18 seconds, foes in that area are stripped of all enchantments and cannot be the target of further enchantments. (50% failure chance with Death Magic 4 or less.)

Learn to bring it.

End of thread

Pauli: First of all, I do understand that you are frustrated that the AI is being easily exploited by the Kurzicks, but like I said before it works on both sides. Now with that out of the way, here's my response.

No, you said that the monks can easily hold the gates and that people can stall the turtles on their own not because they are skilled but because of the map design. I hate to break it to you, but it IS about the monk having the ability to keep both himself and the npc up while under fire from the turtles and other luxons trying to break the gate and being pressured at the same time. Just because you can't beat that monk, doesn't mean they're unbeatable. The same can be said about the monk healing the turtles as well. It IS about the lack of skill on the luxon side for not bringing the proper counters to the turtle tankers that you KNOW you will be seeing all the time. Because the Kurzicks are more prepared and can take advantage of the information available to them, they're abusing the map? News flash: both sides can abuse the mechanics of the map. Everything can be countered. If you already know what to expect, why aren't bringing something to counter them instead of bitching on the forums?

Since I know you will say: it's a random casual format so you can't expect everyone to bring the right stuff. Then let me ask you: it's random for both sides, and yet which side brings more shitter builds? That's right, Luxons do. So again, which side has more bad players?

And yet it's common knowledge that Kurz dominate Lux at JQ. Your wins there are like a minor detail in the overall picture. Why do you think that there are so many Kurz waiting there as opposed to Lux? Because Luxons know that they won't stand a chance. So again I ask you: if Kurzick players are that bad, why are they winning all the time in JQ where the map is actually balanced?

Doesn't mean that it can't be done. You can easily pull him like any mob: with a bow. Actually, if you time his wanding animation and run outside green as he's about to attack again, he WILL follow you outside.

You see the problem with that? Juggs were meant to counter the turtles and have high armor so that it keep green up longer. And yet pretty much anyone can solo it without taking much damage. Knockdown abilty? What knockdown? I said that they can be body blocked so that they just stand there and do nothing. And just because the body block is also an issue elsewhere doesn't make it any less significant here. At least the turtles can spam carrier defense.

And I also mentioned that the tankers/healers can and should be countered if you want any hope of success. Sure I agree that turtles firing into walls where people are standing by the teleporters are annoying and should be fixed. But complaining about tanker and healer is like going to fight Shiro without bringing any anti-melee and then complaining that he owned your team. I understand that you are frustrated about the AI being exploited, but like I said a good team (which the Luxons currently lack) do not have to rely on the turtles. At all.

Not true, if you read the forums and Wiki and talk to others who have played there, then you have a pretty good idea of what's been going on for both sides, and that is how I came up with the consensus.

And that's why I agreed that the Kurzicks have the initial advantage of being more coordinated simply because they are all balled up in the fort. Only thing I have to say is, if you strip right before that turtle hits, that npc is dead. No coordination required.

TD;LR Version: I do understand that you guys are frustrated about the turtles being exploited and the monks healing the gates. But this can be abused on both sides. A good Luxon team does not need turtles to win. Still, the tankers/healers can and should be countered if you want to win (or have fun in your case and not be frustrated), then topics like this wouldn't have to come up time and again.

You know that's exactly what I did in my first post (in this thread). I said that just a few changes are needed and the map would be more fun. kthx.

Learn what a casual format is, and how to design a PvP map for them. Forcing builds to win a casual match is one big fail.
End of thread (for Brother Andicus).

No, I'm not frustrated. I'm having fun playing at Fort Aspenwood, but you only had to read my posts because its specifically written in some of them. Furthermore, I never said I'm frustrated.

I hate to break it to you, but some builds are very very very easy to operate. Builds that are shared or published and can be easily obtained. If its that easy, it requires a lot of skill, right? Wrong. Furthermore, We know both sides bring, occasionally, bad players which means that its very easy to overcome their attempts to harm you. I also know, from experience, that its true. Its very easy to overcome many attempts to harm me, even from quite a lot of players (when I'm playing a monk).

Another fail in your post, is that fact that you tell me what I'm doing, and then said I'm not good enough. I hate to break it to you, but whenever I bring a necromancer or a mesmer, I always bring strips and/or skill denial. If I dont, I just go to the other gate so I wouldnt spend time. Please ask me what I'm doing instead of trying to tell me what I'm doing. It'll prevent more fails in your post. Could I expect anyone to act like me? No, I cant. Its nothing more than the basics of designing a map for casuals. Dont force builds which are only prefered by rare people.

I hate to break it to you (yes, again), but skill is the way you use your build and casuals dont only lack skill in many cases, but also bring prefered builds. That's the basics of designing a map for casuals. You shouldnt force them to bring builds that are rarely prefered (rare is the key word here). Its about builds people have fun playing. Its about preferences.

Solo builds with a lot of ways to survive and/or run away are popular because many casuals dont like it when they die. Such builds can hold the turtle in one place,even though they can hold the turtle without being hurt at all (which is one of the major issues here). Skill denial builds, which are extremely useful against monks (among others), are very vulnerable and dont have the satisfaction of killing, also because they cant coordinate the lockdown with damage from other people. Therefore, such builds are unpopular.

Yet another fail in your post is the basic fact that I said I want to fix ANY type of issue that originates in the map's design, while you try to make it look like I only want to fix the Luxon side's issues (maybe you do that purpose, I really dont know). I said, for example, that I'd prevent any chance of luring the last NPC out, so it will serve the Luxons. You keep seeing only what you want, and I'm starting to think its on purpose. If its not, its about comprehension.

Of the two of us, you're the one who complained about the players while I never did so (try to quote me, just give it a shot). That said, you just called yourself a forum bitch. I didnt call you that, you called yourself.


Common knowledge? Says who? You? Did A-Net approve it with any kind of statistics on their part? If not, why should I talk your word for it? Furthermore, any attempt to prove that one side is inherently more skilled than the other side (when its an RvR discussion) has always failed, like your (attempt for an) arguement here.

You must know, by now, that forums are far from being a good way to represent the game's population. Its a well known fact that's been proved time and again and again and again etc. That said, you cant base your arguement on the forums. A-Net's statistics are the only way to know.

Which is why I said I'm against it and it should be fixed.

I never said its not an issue. Quite the opposite, in fact. I specifically said its an issue, but not one that belongs to Fort Aspenwood alone. I dont know what can be done about it. If someone comes up with a good suggestion, I'm all for it.

I'm against body blocking the Juggernaut just to prevent it from doing its job. However, I remember its damage being very easy to once it got to the turtle. The turtle didnt have such a major problem doing its job even with a Juggernaut on it. That said, its an issue but not nearly as serious as the turtle's. Why? Because the turtle's impact, once its not stuck far from the battle, is much more serious.


When fighting Shiro you have the chance to organise a team and choose your team mates and builds properly. People also tend to be much more coordinated when working with premade teams. The case we're discussing here is far from being the one you mentioned (Shiro) and therefore the analogy is irrelevant.

Again, its not frustration. I'm having fun, but I'd have more fun if things were a little different. Therefore I initially made two simple suggestions in a constructive way. Gladly, most of your post was mature and constructive and I believe you'll understand me better now. I think I understand your side here.

Other than that, the turtles were given to the Luxon side to be an advantage, and not a small one too. This advantage has the greatest impact when inside the fort, but its extremely easy to prevent them from going inside. You wouldnt be surprised when we ask for the advantage we were designed to have, do you? Just like I'm not surprised if you dont like it when the last NPC is lured out (and like I said, it shouldnt happen).

Its quite the same story with the monks and the gate NPCs (which is coupled with the wast way in which the gates can be fixed), which we discussed quite a lot already.


Conclusion

It all boils down to everyone here asking one thing: Let skill be the factor that decides who's going to win. Skill and team work, while taking into account the fact that we dont know who will our team mates be or which class/build will they choose.

What we have yet to agree about is forcing builds (especially ones that are rarely prefered), and like I already said, its one big fail when someone designs a map for casuals this way.

First of all, I do think turtle blocking should be fixed.

Let's assume I play Luxon side.
This means I have to counter two kinds of players, monks healing at gates and rangers blocking turtles. I have to choose between those two, forcing me into a certain build.

However, if I want to play for win on Kurzick side I am also forced into one or two builds. The gate healer or the turtle blocker. When I don't bring those there is a chance that no healer or blocker is available, making winning harder.

Next we have the 'I want to play whatever I want' mentality.
That's ok, but don't expect to win while thinking that way. It doesn't work in any PvP arena and also doesn't work in PvE without relying on your team.

Kurzicks bring monks and rangers because they want to win. The format forces them to do that. If Luxons want to win they should run builds to counter them. Or pray that others do. That's the way it works.

First of all, there's a way to hold the turtles without getting hurt at all. Not only that, but Rangers are far from being the only way to hold the turtle. Killing the turtle is very easy in almost every match, and therefore there are many more viable builds. If that wasnt enough, we only discussed the gates, and there's a lot of fighting beyond that, so that makes quite a lot of builds viable on both sides (as long as the gate isnt held for such a long time because of one person). On top of it all, Amber is an easy and good way to fix the gates, so many running/survival builds are also made viable on the Kurzick side.

Lets take a step back and see how many viable options the Kurzicks have: Tanking builds, Solo Survival builds, Solo running builds, Various monk builds (to keep the last NPC and other team mates alive), and DPS builds. All those builds are popular options.

Lets take a look at the Luxon side. They have to deal with perches (which I find reasonable), they have to deal with walls (which is acceptable as long as they're maintained because of skill alone), they need to keep the turtle alive, and they have to kill the last NPC.

For the above roles the Luxons need (mostly): Ranged DPS builds (spells are way better here because of walls and perches), Protections builds for monks (or else its very hard to keep yourself AND the turtle alive), Skill Denial (to take care of gate monks, and other monks later) and/or very good strips.

Skill denial isnt common for the reasons I mentioned before. Protections builds arent that common at all (I've been through many many many many battles without seeing one). Good strips are almost always taken by Necromancers or Memsers (mostly Necromancers) who have vulnerable builds (builds with very limited self survival options), and therefore they're much more rare. Rs, Ds, As, Ps and Ws are way less viable, which cancels quite a lot of options (they could be more viable if the walls were breached faster or more easily, and if the NPCs had less anti melee skills). In short, many of their viable builds are unpopular.


The conclusion is extremely clear. The current format supports popular and easy to play builds on the Kurzick side, while the Luxons are forced to take unpopular builds if they want to have a good chance to win.


This is a casual format in which its well known that popular builds will be often taken, and unpopular builds cant be relied on. Therefore, such builds shouldnt be forced. Not even in one battle.

Let's assume that the turtle blocking is fixed somehow.
What do we have left then?

Heal/prot monks seem to be common on Kurz side and rare on Luxon side. Has this to do with popularity? Or easier to play builds? No, it's because on Kurz side people know you need to keep stuff alive to win. For some reason people on Lux side decide in huge numbers that they rather play non-heal/prot roles and hope to win that way.
So my first suggestion to those players is to start thinking about learning to play monk or bring some support skills to keep the turtle alive.

Then we have various melee classes. Those work well on Kurzick side (running amber) and less well on Luxon side. That is, when the gates are not breached. Oh, that's not entirely true. Melee can take care of the amber runners. No amber means no repair of the gates once breached.
Melee has more advantage on Kurzick side, but isn't completely useless on Luxon side when played well.

Then we have casters. Mesmers and necro's have vulnerable builds? Sure, if it's build for one purpose. I played both necro and mesmer in FA and can stay alive just fine. And take care of gate healers at the same time.
There are several skills present to deal with a gate healer, one just might have to resort to secondary profession skills.

The main problem in my opinion remains a player problem.
Kurzicks seem to have a slight clue on what to do (run amber, delay other team by keeping gates closed or slowing turtles/players) while Luxons don't have a clue at all. Recapture amber mines? Can't do that, my build isn't fit for it. Kill or slow amber runners? Oh, can't do that either. Speed boosting turtles/warriors? No way, I need 8 skills to kill that enemy I cannot reach because he's behind a closed gate. Bring a useless build and you will be useless indeed.

Kurzick builds are popular because they work and increase chance of winning.
Luxons bring random 'popular' builds but fail to see that those don't increase the chance of winning. Sounds like there are more smart Kurzick players than smart Luxon players to me.

Is this thread still alive? Stop trying to change my FA already, I like it just fine the way it is.

I'll be blunt here:
Advice like this is the reason why the Kurzick still lose.

So are we talking about tactics or how FA needs to be fixed?

(Spoiler alert: it's a rhetorical question.)

So I guess that means that FA doesn't have any problems.
Because you like it.

he message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 12 characters.

First of all, being a skill denial mesmer, I know that good protection monks (mostly protection) arent as popular as you make it look like. In most cases its no more than one. I rough estimation would be around 20% of the fights without even one protections monk, and 70% of the fights with one protections monk maximum. at about 6-7% of the battles you get two monks that are mostly protectors and in extreme cases you have three such monks. Sure, its my experience here and there's a lot I havent seen, but when at (roughly) 90% of the cases there was no more than one monk who was mostly protections, you get the idea, and I've fought a lot (and I mean a lot) at FA.

Most monks are smiters, healers or bonders that dont concentrate much on protectons beyond that. That said, its not that popular. Furthermore, whenever I was DPS, I cant say most of my opponents were well tended by a monk, much less a protections (protections mostly) monk. It sure is about popularity AND (this is an important point here), the Kurzicks have much more to earn from bringing protections (mostly protections) monks, while the Luxons have much less to earn by bringing them. Kurzicks can keep the gate up for a long time, and save themselves from defeat by protecting the last NPC. What will the Luxons do? Protect a Turtle that gets stuck in one place?

Getting the mines helps much more than any monk ever will. You get a close res point, and you prevent the Amber transferals, which has a lot to do with delaying the Luxons' entrance (or preventing it once they got in). Your suggestion to protect the Turtle is invalid because of the reasons I mentioned above.

Melee are a lot less viable for the Luxons because: They have a hard time taking down the gates and the mines, the Kurzicks have gates and perches, catching an Amber runner is much more difficult without range, and that's a fact. That pretty much leaves them useless (not entirely, but still). Oh, I almost forgot to mention the anti melee defenses on the last NPC. Those defenses make their lives miserable. I'm no against making it hard to take the last NPC down, but what I said is a fact.

There are so many spike builds going on at FA. You cant possibly say that you arent going to get killed often, if you really try to do your job well. hexed monks, or other hexed enemies are going a little back to get their friends' support. All the hexes you've spread will make people hate you and seek you. A good strip build (N) or a skill denial build (Me) will not be able to survive a decent spike. That's twice as true if that build is multi purpose, which takes more skill slots.


What are you talking about? The turtle isnt worth protecting because of reasons we said so many times. Speed boosting the turtles/warriors? What? What for? The turtle isnt going to move an inch (you already know why), and the warriors will usually be long gone because of DoT and/or AoE (both are common). The Warriors will also get stuck near the turtle anyway, which means they wont move an inch.

Recapturing Amber mines happens a lot when I'm fighting. On top of it, dont forget that all those classes which are so great for the perching (and therefore so popular on the Kurzick side) are also viable for taking mines. Some mines can even be taken from the Kurzick walls, no less!

The Kurzicks always have, more or less, one task to deal with. Amber before the walls are breached, inner defense (with few going to the Amber mines sometimes) and then defending the last NPC. The Luxons have to breach the gates, protect the mines, protect the turtles. All those tasks were given, at the same time, to an uncoordinated team of casuals.

I'm sorry, but none of the things you claimed in your post are right, and therefore the conclusion that its the players' fault (and not the design's fault) cant be accepted.

Another person who has nothing constructive to bring to the table and just wants things the way he likes them. There's nothing to see here guys. Move along.

I absolutely agree. More details can be found in my reply to his post.

No.1 rule when designing a PvP map for casuals. Dont force builds on either side, because you know casuals will bring what they prefer. Tactics include coordination and good builds (usually the builds are coordinated as well). How is that supposed to be a mandatory requirement for a random team of casuals?

Its ok. Nobody cares about such comments. Look at this thread. Many posters are taking each other seriously when they post constructively and post arguements. Nobody takes posts like his seriously.

The person I replied to was posting in a constructive way, and my way of respecting him was providing as much detail as I could. You dont have to read it if you dont like.

I think you are placing far to much emphasis on the casual bit.
Its a pvp mode. In a ANY pvp mode players will try to win.
Kurzicks bring the builds they do because they are trying to win. If luxons want to win, they need to know what to expect and counter it.
If they dont want to adapt to the opposition and want to run their build, they shouldn't be in pvp, they should play pve instead.

Its not even like its a big change for ANY build. In most other formats of the game a player will take a res skill. In FA all they need to do is replace it with a skill that is useful for FA and they are set.

While you're right, in a way, there's a major difference between PvP formats such as Random Arenas and the Jade Quarry or Fort Aspenwood (even the Alliance Battles, to an extent), and formats such as the Codex Arena, Guilds vs Guild and Heroes' Ascent.

A person looking for a serious challenge will go, in most cases, to organised PvP. Its no secret that many players there are better than many ones you'll find at RA, FA or the JA. Organised PvP enables the option of voice communication, player selection, build selection and more.

Places like RA, JQ and FA force you on the group, no matter what you bring. If you think many people dont use it to their advantage, you're totally wrong. You'll find leechers, griefers, people who dont care much about their builds or classes or their viability in general. I'm not saying all those who go to the JA, RA of FA fall into the above categories. I'm saying that many such people find their way into this format. Furthermore, there's no chance to coordinate builds, to use voice communication, and you usually dont even say a few welcome words (like "hi") to your team members.

There's a reason I keep mentioning this term (casuals). Its because this format is vastly different than organised PvP in many ways and it has an extremely great impact on the battles themselves. Its foolish at best, for those who design such maps, to ignore those facts.

You want to certainly have Profane on your team?
YOU need to bring it.
Same thing with deep ench strips.
YOU need to bring it.
Otherwise you are relying on your party members to fulfil the NECESSARY roles. To fill the roles without which it's going to be near impossible to win.
Which means if you want Profane and targeted ench removal - you need to either be a primary or a secondary necro.
ALWAYS.

That's certainly NOT a minor adjustment.

I completely agree (again). Therefore I made my suggestion about the NPC who'll be able to provide a prolonged stripping (more details ca be found in my first post in this thread).

I remember the days I was still going to the university (Psychology) and we learned one important fact there, which relates directly to the situation at hand: In public situations (like the one at FA, when you're playing with strangers), people will always try to rely on others to do what they dont want to do.

Players, in general, prefer not to take the good strips. Its a fact. There's no way around it. Its because of this fact they rely on others to do it for them, which doesnt usually happen (surprise surprise).

There's also that well known experiment in which people are given the opportunity to cooperate with strangers, or f*** them and gain more. Guess what people do 90% of the time (no less)? They f*** strangers to get a little more than they get if they cooperate with them. People dont usually care much about strangers, especially when its all anonimous the way its over the internet.

The people in your team are random strangers. Enough said.

I'll agree with all of that, but to me all you just proved is that it is the luxon playerbase which is broken, not the game mode.

Asking maybe 2 members of a 8 man team to bring maybe 3 skills between them specific to the game mode they are playing seems absolutely fine to me.

I've played many games on both sides, and its VERY rare to see a side with no primary or secondary nec or mes.

When I play either side, I first decide what class I want to play, and then depending on that class I pick a skill or two that will be suited to the map.
If I choose to play necro that means well of profane.
If I choose mesmer I take shatter and drain enchant (hardly a burdon).
Feel like a paragon, fallback and holy spear(1 skill to negate any possible minions)
If I play monk, on Kurzick thats nearly always Healers Boon since other builds have more problems with the turtle strip.
On luxon a fairly normal hybrid prot bar, but instead of warrior stances or dark escape maybe drain enchant, rip enchant, scourge healing.

Now I have a background with organised pvp which I accept puts my approach to FA slightly different to more "casual" players, but to me there is nothing wrong with asking individual players to make 1 or 2 skills on their bar taylored to the arena they are playing in.
And if they don't like the skills then either suck it up or continue to lose.

While being one of well made posts in this thread, you missed the point. You talk about yourself, which is perfectly fine, but the fact is that many people dont act the same way. I might act in a similar way to yours, because I care about my viability, but that doesnt mean everybody does.

While you see nothing wrong with forcing builds, you're not in charge of designing this map. Maps are designed for players to play. More specifically, each format has a target audience. FA is a casual map, and its crystal clear. We both know its true. Since maps are designed for players to play in, they must be popular, or else why should the company spend resources to create, maintain and balance them?

If you had to be that designer, and you had to be the one to explain the reasons its not popular enough (and you might lose your job), would you still do something to reduce that map's popularity? There are two major aspects (among others) which are critical for a casual map like FA: Balance and freedom (to an extent, of course). Balance is something I dont want to discuss here because its just too much, so lets talk about freedom.

Freedom, in this case, is a related to balance. If you allow certain decent builds to have extremely more impact than other decent builds, you dont really allow enough freedom for a casual (also random) team. If decent builds have, more or less, the same impact on the battle's outcome, you hit the spot. Viability is one of the key words here.

Casuals play this PvP format because they're having fun. Many casuals dont have fun, especially in the long run, if they're forced to run specific builds because those builds have significantly more impact (providing they're both at least decent). They get bored, and they leave. They stop playing. The map becomes less popular and then you ask yourself again: Why did I design this map if its rather unpopular or seriously unpopular? Content is made for players to play, and if they dont want to play it, the designer failed.

I'd actually classify all the Factions game types as semi casual as they all have certain 'rules' and objectives that if you want to succeed have the effect of 'forcing' builds.
AB and JQ are all about speed buffs and alter nuking, FA needs either nukes and strips or heals and shutdown.

I'd much rather not talk about freedom.
Freedom gave us Ursan, Freedom continues to give us SF. It was acknowledged in an interview recently that these 2 items have been allowed to dominate pve in order to allow players to play content that was to difficult for them. My personal opinion is this ruins the game for those that are able. Instead its better to help educate the playerbase so they become better players. Thirsty River is a good example of this, and i'd hope to see more of the same for GW2.

Part of what makes FA fun where RA is very unfun is the fact the game has 'rules'. Part of the skill of a player in GW is picking and utilising an appropriate build. In FA regardless of the side I fight on, I know that I can make a positive impact on the game just by doing this. By allowing more build 'freedom' all we do is take away an element of the skill of GW and take a step closer to 8v8 RA. You then may as well call it PvX playground and watch degenerate players use degenerate builds they copied from google because they don't have the ability to judge what is useful for themselves.

So yes, if what your 'casual' player wants is big sandpit with no rules, then the designer has failed.
However as a baby step towards the build/strategy - counterbuild/counterstrategy of competetive pvp the designer has made an entertaining game mode that is inclusive for all players and introduces some key concepts (running skills, snares, enchants and removals) to beginning pvpers

I'll try to keep the flaming down to a minimum.

IMO it's not about operating a build that takes skill, it's about keeping npc's and yourself alive while under fire from the turtles, gank squad, AND other luxon players that takes skill. It takes awareness to know, for example, when to put up that guardian ahead of time to protect yourself from the sin about to shadowstep to you. Also, if you're protecting yourself from others attempting to harm you, you're not protecting that vital npc that would easily die in seconds if you weren't paying attention. This also forces you to make decisions. Will you take that diversion so you can keep someone up longer? Will you let it die to save yourself? I believe that is what requires skill to successfully monk; because as bad as some people are, they at least have enough sense to attack the monk when they see him (as you also agree with me on that one).

No, I said that in general, Luxons don't know what they're doing. They don't bring enchant removals, waste their time killing stuff that don't need to be killed, bring stupid builds, etc. I'm sure that you are one of those good luxon players, but that doesn't mean that the general populace in FA are the same.

What makes you think that Kurzicks won't also fail to bring these preferred builds? Like I said before, if you're going to talk about a format for casuals, then you also must consider both sides. But like I keep saying, Kurzicks are more prepared thus bring more effective builds than Luxons do. In any PvP format, it all comes down to winning, and using what's most effective for achieving that goal. Players bringing whatever they want and expecting to win are being too naive. If they wanna have fun, so be it. But just don't expect to steamroll other, more prepared players who are there to win, like they would in PvE.

Not everything has to be about killing. It's more effective to shut down that monk than trying to kill him in many cases, because a dead monk can come back like you said, but a shut down monk is practically useless. You don't need to coordinate damage from other people once the monk can't do anything. Everything will die on their own, and rather quickly, if the monk can't do his job.

Also, I'll throw this back at you for the casual players don't wanna die part:

And yet the basis of your argument is that monks are healing gate npc's and that players are getting the turtles stuck. How is that not complaining about the players? Because certainly in your view as far as I understand, is that they are abusing the mechanics of the map, even though both sides can abuse them. I AM agreeing with you that turtles shouldn't be blocked so easily especially at the teleporters. But until it gets fixed, you must also expect to see them and provide counters. Still, the players are what makes a difference in the arena, and NOT the npc's; but you seem convinced that you MUST have the turtles in all their godliness or your chances of winning are slim to none. Even though others have already pointed out the fact that good teams do NOT need the turtles. At all. Yes I've won on Lux side with the turtle still stuck in-between the inner and outer gates. Again this goes back to player skill.

So you really think that the many kurzick players there waiting for up to 20 minutes just to get in, do so because they think they're gonna lose? JQ is like a kurzick faction farm fest even with the long wait times. If Luxons are winning so much, why aren't there more players on that side? Also see below.

I also said chatting with players/guildies/alliance in-game. The Wiki is also full of many others pointing out the faults in Luxon players' builds.

Fair enough.

Juggs can flip over the turtle. Once flipped over, the turtle is not only prevented from shooting (and it gets interrupted in one flip), but it also takes massive damage from almost anything.

I was talking about the skill bars that you would be bringing in when you know what you will be going up against (healers and tankers in this case), NOT about organized teams because again, this applies to both sides.

Okay, fair enough.

Well like I said, everything can be countered. Running amber takes at least 2 people to do it successfully, so that leaves only 6 out of 8 people defending. So there is a drawback. Not only that, if there is no monk, the gates can be broken so fast that it would take more than 2 runners to keep them up. You do the math.

Anyway, if anything I do admire your dedication to this subject and arguing against so many people at once.

The Kurzick aren't more prepared.
Had they be more prepared - we'd see 8 monk teams.
Pretty much anyone that isn't running a monk on the Kurzick side is running a sub-par build.
And the problem is that due to the strength of the monk, the few monks that do appear are actually able to negate that failure of the individuals that do not bring a monk.

No single build on the Luxon side is able to do that.

@ Brother Andicus

What you're saying about the AB and the JQ is extremely wrong. If you think capturing and killing cappers doesnt matter, you're very very very wrong. That said, your statement about builds being forced is wrong. By the way, RvR games and maps vary in their designs. Lets not even mention the difference between oRvR (open Realm vs Realm) and the RvR you find at GW.

Ursan is PvE, and I'm not talking about PvE. Freedom in a competitive map is so different than freedom in a non competitive content like PvE. The analogy (or any type of comparison, regarding freedom) fails because those two types of content are too different. By the way, a designer must be perfectly aware of what target audience he's aiming for. Some players really want to be educated, while some others will quit the moment they see see the first signs of education (above the tutorial level, of course).

You totally confused two very different things. One thing, which I was refering to, was freedom that's related to decent builds (which are also very easy to operate). The other freedom, which you speak of, is reducing the impact of excellent build and excellent use of them. Those are two very different things. Take, for example, two decent builds for FA. One is a Fire E build and the other one is a W build (on the Luxon side). Both are easy to operate. The W will be much much less viable just because of the map's design. When I was talking about freedom, that's what I meant.

If you want a place (for casuals) in which one person, who's skilled and has a good build, can make a very serious impact, you should go to RA. At TA you're on of 4, and not one of 8. Mobility is also less of an issue compared to FA, which means you can pretty much concentrate on doing a said job. If you want to learn about organization, you should go to a premade mode. You learn about player selection, build selection, communication (including voice communication, often) coordination during combat, and more. None of these are possible with a random team of casuals. That said, there's no reason to accept your statements about forcing builds and/or premade coordination on a format like FA.

@ upier

I totally agree.

After playing a monk for quite a lot of matches I can tell that most of the "aggro" you have to deal with is not of "high quality". What do I mean by that? I mean its easily negated and there rarely is something that's really threatening you once you're able to mitigate damage very very well. In times

I've been able to take care of the "aggro" created by 10-11 players at once, when I had another monk with me (Alliance Battles). At Fort Aspenwood I usually manage to keep myself and another person alive from 4-6 people with no serious problem. Once I meet a very long lasting daze (that isnt coming from an arrow, since I can avoid it easily), or a skill denial Me, I have a problem. Such a Me was something I rarely ever met, and was also killed at times, when my team mates found him. That said, its mostly about the build.

Thank you, and I'm sure you're one of the better ones yourself too, but please see my comments about this issue in my last reply to you (about popularity) and here:http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=96

Please see my comments about freedom (in this post).

You try to shut down a monk (also in the last battle to kill the last NPC). What do you get? The monk moves a little back, still able to sustain most (if not all) of his friends. You're lured into the open, quite close to his friends. You have a vulnerable build. What do you get? Death, for yourself. Good lockdown builds wont include a great deal of survivability skills. Furthermore, skills like Diversion (a key skill in many Skill Denial builds) is susceptible to interrupts, which means you will usually need Fast Casting, in addition to Domination, and that pretty much leaves little options for yourself.

You're the one who claims its the people's fault, which is complaining about them. I never said its the people's fault, which means I never complained about them. Furthermore, I never tried to make any assumptions regarding your personal skill or the way you perform. That said, you cant throw these back at me, because those two quotes have nothing to do with my posts.

That's not complaining about the players. That's complaining about the map design, which is something I said many many times. A designer never blames players for trying to exploit his design, because its in the human nature. It'll ALWAYS happen. Therefore, the designer is the one to blame. I also said that I'm against Luxons abusing the map in any shape or form.

As for me, I expected those things to happen and bring counters, but can I expect every random player, who's also a casual to do so? I cant. Its also the designer's fault, like I said before.

Sure, the players make the difference, but what I asked (multiple times) is to make sure none of them makes such a serious impact as an individual, and just because of the map's design.

The Luxons dont need the turtles and the Kurzicks dont need Amber. Does that mean one of them should be taken from the other side just because of map design faults? No.

I've been losing an amazing amount of times at FA and still had a lot of fun. Did I want to fight again? I sure did. Furthermore, it still is a well known fact that the vocal ones (like forum posters) arent the majority of the players.


Sounds like a fair solution to the problem.


My comments about Skill Denial and strip builds are already known. Furthermore, there arent always tanks, and you wont even find a protector (mostly) monk in every match.

I cant do the math, because an Fire Ele (AoE build) can wipe the gate NPCs in an instant and a W (for example) wont nearly be as effective against the them. The drawback of losing two people to keep the mines is acceptable. Its a tradeoff one should be aware of.

Breaking the gate isnt the end of the battle. Kurzicks have preches, which I find perfectly acceptable, and they can fix the gates with Amber, which I also find perfectly acceptable. Currently, the Turtle can even be delayed for an unlimited amount of time, and gates can really be hold for a long time (potentially), so I wouldnt say that a broken gate is the end of the battle.

Thank you very much.

Well, good rant on something I stated to be fixed before starting my argument, Pauli.

Now it's my time for a little rant.
For some reason Kurzicks have the brain to bring somewhat effective roles once in a while. The moment you see many brainless physicals running around on Luxon side without having a clue how to breach the gates while at the same time a monk is protecting the gate and someone is holding back turtles while a ranger is capturing the amber location from the wall you know which side use their brains more.

And since Kurzicks can keep a gate alive, how hard is it for a somewhat decent monk to keep a few warrior npc's and a turtle alive (again assuming the blocking is solved).
NPC healing is NPC healing, though healing 5 including the turtle requires somewhat more skill than keeping one alive.

Keeping myself alive is part of doing my job well. As caster I have my secondary profession to help me keep alive. Skills that keep me alive as long as I'm not ganked by several players. Since we are talking casual play on both sides this should not happen too often, both sides should have a roughly equal number of mindless players.
If I get ganked all the time when playing Luxon I'd say Kurzicks just have better players.

If Luxon have a goal then the opposite goal is the goal for the Kurzicks.
The only difference is that Lux has the more offensive role and Kurz the defensive.
So protect gate vs breach gate, protect Guntar vs kill Guntar and both sides have to (re)cap the amber mines.
Protecting turtles isn't much different from protecting Guntar or Juggers (as long as they are not blocked). It's part of the gameplay and if you bring a monk you can heal not only turtles and npc warriors, but also the rest of the team (who are in range).

Next thing is that playing melee good in PvP isn't easy.
Sure, I can bash my weapon against something but that isn't good play. Good play is taking out the right person at the right time. And often this requires coordination with other teammates.
On Kurzick side this is different. People can win by keeping gates closed, running amber. That's not playing melee, that's running. So we have one class who has two different roles depending on side.
Maybe this is too hard for people to understand and this is the reason why they bring melee. If it works on one side it should work on the other side.
Sounds like a player problem to me.

In the end it's simple. If it works it's good. If it doesn't work you are useless, the slot you are in could also have been empty. It's easy for Kurzick players to determine what works. Bring a monk. If you don't feel like that bring a runner. If you don't want that bring a ranger to cap the amber mines from the wall.
For Luxon things ain't so much different. Bring a monk (there seems to be shortage of decent ones). Even if your turtle is stuck you can keep 3 other people from your party (or more when gates are breached) alive. If you don't like bring a caster/nuker. If you don't want that bring shutdown or stripper. Or if you are really know what you are doing bring a physical.

Now again my question: Let's assume that the turtle blocking is fixed somehow.
What do we have left then?

First of all, I didnt see monks protecting the gate NPC all that often, its just that they have a great impact when they do, so your statement is wrong. Not only that, but those are far from being rangers alone who're able to hold the turtle in one place. Everybody (almost) does so very easily, and one of the reasons is that the turtle can be held back in one place without even getting hurt (which I already mentioned in many posts).

You should also see my comments about popular vs unpopular builds, which will refute your "theory" (about Kurzicks being even somewhat superior as players) in two seconds.

You suggested the turtle will be fixed, but I talked about the time in which its not fixed yet. Why did I do so? Because the best way to learn about the
Luxon behaviour after a change, is to monitor it after the chance. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&postcount=83

upier's post is also relevant in this case: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=101

While you're at it, take a look at the link containing psychological facts
which are directly related to FA: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=96


Let me help you by showing you what a rant is, so you'll know for the next time:

–verb (used without object)
1. to speak or declaim extravagantly or violently; talk in a wild or vehement way; rave: The demagogue ranted for hours.
–verb (used with object)
2. to utter or declaim in a ranting manner.
–noun
3. ranting, extravagant, or violent declamation.
4. a ranting utterance.
Origin:
1590–1600; < D ranten (obs.) to talk foolishly

Related forms:
ranter, noun
rant⋅ing⋅ly, adverb

Synonyms:
3. bombast, extravagance.

Please show me how was I exaggerating or unconstructive. Good luck. You'll need it.

Keeping yourself alive can be done in the following manner (in the vast majority of the cases): Staying out of your enemies' aggro range, which means you wont be able to seriously influence decent (or better) monks OR bringing a build which is able to withstand a spike, or two consecutive (more or less) spikes. Such a thing happens often when you attract a lot of hate and you're close to the enemy lines (which happens inside the fort).

Spike builds, of many kinds, are very popuplar at FA on both sides, and some include E damage so blocks wont do the job all the time. A Necromancer build (except a MM) or a Me build (which has no Illusions), wont be able to sustain a spike. The Illusions attribute has little to do with skill denial and strips (not to mention fast casting against interrupts), which are very very important to the Luxon side.

That said, your self survival skills will take a good toll on your ability to do other things. Furthermore, staying out of aggro range will mean you help much less, and is more or less the same result.

You seem not to know how to prove yourself right. To prove yourself right you must prove that you cant be proved wrong. You try, time and again, it has to do with the Kurzicks being inherently better than the Luxons, but you can see its easy to refute any of your claims. I'd even take a guess and say that if you really wanted to see the truth, you could know in advance that your claims can be easily refuted. Here's a little hint: Every attempt, so far (no matter where), to claim that one side (in an RvR game) is inherently more skilled than the other, has always failed. Take it as a friendly hint.


Healing the turtles? Its already been discussed. Defense? I already prove, time and again, that defense is much stronger than the vast majority of the offense you find in a casual format. That said, even this fact alone gives the Kurzicks an advantage that can make them easily win all the time. I didnt complain about it, though, since its not going to happen (remember upier's post?).

Many melee builds, at FA, are either tank or spike. Both are easily to play against the vast majority of FA's players. The Kurzicks can do a lot by using melee once you get inside the fort. There's no one who's able to refute that.

It was a player problem if you were right about the melee play at FA, and if monks couldnt that easily keep the gate up, and if the Kurzicks couldnt that easy sneak Amber from either side, and if the Kurzicks didnt have perches (from which they can even take the mines), and if the Kurzicks couldnt stall the turtle forever without getting hurt (which could be very helpful against the gate NPC, and if the Kurzicks were the ones who need to get past the walls to do their job (its the Luxons who need to get inside), and if the Kurzicks didnt have an easy map travel with all their portal, and if and if and if... Bottom line is that you try to prove its the player problem when its extremely easy to see that the map design plays such a huge role. All you have to do is try to see the truth instead of what you want to see.

By the way, its not like I think the Kurzicks shouldnt have an advantage like perches, map travel or some other things. You already know what issues we have because we discussed it many times.


First of all, as a Luxon player, lets say that its painfully obvious which builds are better for monks to the Kurzick side, but I rarely see more than one such monk in a fight (and not even one in every battle). That said, I refuted your claims that one side is inherently more skilled. Again.

Casters and nukers can easily be found at the Luxon side, since those are popular builds. The strip and skill denial were also discussed. Monks are far less viable than on the Kurzick side because the Kurzicks are the ones who need to buy time. If you know what you're doing bring a physical? We already discussed this enough and you really seem to ignore (on purpose or not, I dont know) most of what's been said about it in the thread.

Just a little hint: Play a good E on the Luxon side and then try a physical on the Luxon side (mostly melee). You'll change those things you said about physicals in your post in an instant. They're extremely less viable on the Luxon side (melee most of all). Its a fact.

+1

There is no way to fix it. leechers leechers leechers. Fa is dead.

nuff sed

/kgo

Pretty much. FA is pretty much a 8v8 RA, you win some, you lose some, game design or not, depends on players. Flawed AI is to FA as syncing is to RA.

OP You're just restating your points over and over in every post. Put more TL;DRs

If I can find a group by waiting 2:30 minutes at worst, and most usually 0-60 seconds, I wouldnt call it dead. There were no leechers or just one leecher in most fights I've been. You could said "nuff sed" is you had some kind of statistic from A-Net, since your experience (as well as mine) has its limits, but you didnt provide anything. That said, there's nothing to see here. Just another post.

The OP didnt post for some time, and as for me (in case you talked to me), I wish I didnt need to say the same things over and over. Its just that some others repeat themselves because they dont understand. No person in this thread (including you) has been able to refute any of my arguements, which means something. That said, there are issues. You can discuss them if you want, but you're not forced to. You cant deny them, not unless you refute any of my arguements, which you havent. By the way, I'm trying to save some space by posting links, like I did in my last post.

I do agree that the Kurzick's have the advantage on this mission, but in my experience it's never been a major hindrance to the luxons winning. I usually win 2/3 games as a luxon in FA. I do like the side switch idea.

Refute my arguement that FA is basically a 8v8 RA.

Granted turtles are buggy, that needs fixed, we all know, but they also are not needed to win whatsoever.

Bonder monks are too hard omgQQcan't win
They can be beaten by strips or better yet profane well.
You find strips just as much as you find bonders.

Physical suck due to all the anti melee.
And? There are plenty of areas where melees suck in PvE, don't use em. There are certain times where casters suck in PvP/PvE, don't use em.

Luxons suck at FA due to players, not map mechanics.
Just like kurzicks are good at JQ and horribad at AB, players, not mechanics.

Let's look at AB, it has been in kurz territory for months now, when kurz are in their territory. They have an advantage, yet they still lose.
How could this be? Buggy maps? One sided maps? The maps are in favor of the losing team, so it must be the players.

TL;DR: Luxons don't know what they're doing.

Best idea i can come up with to fix everything in GW1 is for Anet to hurry along and lerease GW2 asap!

This weekend I played a couple of Luxon rounds to see what would happen.
All on same character, so my role was no different in every match.
The teams with mainly melee would lose and not or only with serious effort breach green, the teams with mix would have a fair chance to win or to at least breach green gate long before timer runs out.

Next I watched some of the melee skill bars. W/Mo with WoH and Breeze. Nice warrior with Frenzy but he forgot cancel stance. And he aggroed everything he could. Kinda hard to keep such a guy alive, not even keeping in mind that he could have no monk in team at all. Several X/R with pet. People attacking Kurzick Defy Pain W/Mo tanks.

On the other side things were only slightly better. I've seen some stupid actions on their side, but most teams had at least one monk present.

I'd say this is what casual play is about. People with no clue playing whatever they like. No need to fix mechanics :P

To begin with:
At RA no side has any advantage, the tasks given are much more straight forward and there's no need for splitting, its easier to work well in a small team of 4 as a part of a small map compared to FA, there are no NPCs helping anyone in the fight except the Priest (in one map type), and I could go on. Your statement was easily refuted.

Again, it doesnt mean I shouldnt get the advantage I was designed to have.

Reading comprehension is your best friend. Bonders were far from being the main issue. Many Bonders I've seen concentrate mainly on healing (except the bond) and therefore are not the issue, but then again, you could read before QQing about other things people are posting about.

This statistic of yours, of strippers being as common as Bonder on the Kurzick side, doesnt even need to be refuted because you provided no evidence of that being so. That said, you still proved nothing.

You keep saying the same things and provide nothing that even resembles evidence or some kind of proof. With such empty claims I can only say: Refute any of my arguements regarding freedom, human psychology (the facts that are related to FA) and popularity of builds.

The AB is amazingly unpopular and therefore there arent many changes in the maps. Furthermore, this fact proves there's no one side which is inherently better than the other in an RvR game (or map). That fact had been proved countless times and also proves all of your (relevant) statements wrong. Its that simple.



@ the_jos

Sadly this is what casual play means on avarage. However, it has no bearing on the fact that the game mechanics need to be changed. Why? Because, as I've said all along, individuals shouldnt have such a serious impact if it originates from the map's design alone. The best case I can think of, at the moment, is of someone being able to hold the turtle without even being hurt.


@ choclatedippednillawafer

First of all, I lose more than I win in some days, and win a lot more than lose in other days. Experience can be very different and the only real statistics are for A-Net employees to see. Other than that, some of the issues I mentioned are a problem in almost every match (turtle) while some arent as common but shouldnt happen either (monks and gate NPCs).

Ok, we both agree on the turtle bug.
And I think killing mines from the walls by Kurzick rangers.

People who play serious for faction (titlehunters and such) won't go to areas like FA.

This means it's likely to encounter only a few experienced players on those fields. And because of their experience they can make a difference.
This is not only true for FA, but also for AB and to some point JQ (I've not been there for weeks, so not going too much on that one).

I know this is casual play, but so is AB. And to some point RA. You win by learning to master your profession and the situation. And it can be the profession is not so well fit for the situation, always has disadvantage.
If I want to get streaks in RA I bring two professions I know by heart. I can bring one or two other professions I know well enough to be an asset to the team, but I won't play optimal. The other professions give me disadvantage, some due to mechanics in RA, others due to my lack of experience.

In FA things ain't much different. Some professions work better than others. But with the current gameplay every profession played by a somewhat experienced player can be an asset.

This makes it very hard to determine mechanic problems.
When I play and win over 50% of the matches and hear alliance members who win time after time this cannot be luck alone if the map is truely unbalanced. Or Kurzicks must have even worse players than Luxon, which I don't believe since it's random.

I hope you understand that I'm only trying to say there are several mechanics at work that contribute to the problems in FA. One of those problems is player skill and it's about as serious as map mechanics in my opinion. It's hard to balance an assault/defend map when average player skill is what you call 'casual'. Only if two sides have about the same experience and the random factor is taken out (by syncing or such) actual imbalance is possible and detectable. Now too much accounts on the (bad) skill of players instead of broken mechanics. Sure, there are some theoretical problems like gate protting, but I didn't see that as a problem in the rounds I played.

@ the_jos

The mines question isnt an easy one to answer. If the developers really intended that to happen, then its ok. If not, its not ok. However, I dont know what they had in mind. In my opinion they didnt want that to happen, since it only gives Rangers (Kurzick Rangers) an advantage when they already have enough (again, I refer to Kurzick Rangers).

I believe you really meet a few experienced players, but that's just an opinion. I really have no data, and I dont know if even A-Net employees have that data. Furthermore, experienced players might take stupid builds on purpose if it fits their favorite playstyle. They might do so because they're tired of taking viable builds and/or because of any other reason I mentioned when I posted about human psychology (the facts that relate to FA).

AB is, to some extent, designed to be less casual than FA because it allows premade teams. That step is a very important one and sets the AB aside from the JQ or FA.

There's nothing wrong with not knowing how to play a said class, or a said build. After all, different builds can change your profession's playstyle so much, that it might look like another class (profession). Anyway, the point is that you can always try to improve your own performance if you want to, and I see no reason why you shouldnt try to do that at RA or FA.

At GW there are different factors, but each of them is extremely important. Some of the main aspects are: Profession(/class), build, player skill. Choosing the right class is already a step on the right way, as well as choosing a good build. No matter how experienced you are, and how skilled you are, the class and build will have an extreme impact on your performance. Therefore I wouldnt say that just being an experienced player means so much, especially not when some good builds are very easy to operate.


RvR and FA

Every arguement, regarding one side being inherently better (player quality) in an RvR game (or map), has always failed. This thread is just another proof for that. There are countless (and I mean countless) matches in which none of us, or other people we know, take part of. Furthermore, such statistics dont refute the basic issues that are very obvious. For instance, its very obvious that the turtle wasnt designed to be stuck all day long from someone who cant even get hurt.

RvR maps, such as FA, rely one the fact that most of the players' performance (on both sides) is bad. The map's design was made in such a way that no individual is able to have a very serious impact alone (without anyone else's help). However, the developers didnt see everything in advance and therefore there are issues, like the Turtle which we mentioned so many times. To compensate for the lack of (avarage) player skill, there were NPCs and specific mechanics. Those were supposed to make up for the players' performance (player skill is a part of that performance) in various ways. Some of those ways are great and some arent so good at all.

RvR relies, mostly, on a way of balance that revolves around numbers. This fact was the main reasons that RvR instances start with equal numbers on both sides. Balancing oRvR (open Realm vs Realm) is even extremely more difficult and was one of the main reasons oRvR games failed (DaoC, WAR). Anyone who has enough experience playing one of these games knows exactly how right I am. Numbers are superior to almost anything when it comes to RvR. Why did you think the term "Zerg" (regarding MMO PvP, especially oRvR) was invented and used so many times?

To keep it short: FA's design, like any RvR map at GW, relies mostly on numbers and the fact that no person is able to have such a great impact alone (without any help at all). That fact remains true as long as there are no issues regarding map mechanics However, there are often such issues and therefore they should be addressed.

OK I will add something here regarding freedom (just my observations the may or may not influence the arguments):

1. If there is no player to stop me I can kill every kurzick NPC on my way including juggernaut, gatekeepers and Gunther. Did it on ele, war, para, ranger and sin and I can do it in under 2 min. Did it more than 50 times already. I do not have a single pvp rank and I am just a random pve player. On the other hand one kurzick player can hold both turtles. For me it evens out.

2. If there are no players at all and luxon turtles start to move they will kill Gunther eventually. Noticed it once while most of the teams dc and the remaining players were not able to do anything due to a lag. It means kurzick npcs need players help to resist.

3. I can go through protted gate with a warrior, ele, sin, necro and mesmer. Through a gate with healer behind I can go through with a necro and mesmer. I do not need turtles or other players for that. It means as The Jos said that one monk +kurzick npc can hold just one player and I say that even not always... I saw mesmer able to shut down 2 monks. In some cases it is really better for kurzicks to have someone with an offensive class. If there would be 8 monks on kurzick side I think 4-5 mesmers and necro are enough to win.

4. If there is a kurzick guy blocking all the turtles it means that there are 7 kurzicks who have to deal with 8 luxon. Regarding Kurzick NPCs see p.1

5. If the players even each other out then see p.2.

6. The things mentioned in this thread as supposed Kurzick advantage barely can even p.1 and p.2. (my opinion)

7. Luxon have a bunch of choices. They can go after shutting down players, helping turtles or just clearing kurzick npcs. Every profession can do any of these roles. If all focus on shutting down players then see p.2.

I played countless games on both sides and the winning chance is still 50%. I see the same players on playing both sides so I can hardly argue that one side has better players than the other. I always see variety of builds and skills. I play various professions and the games are still balanced in my opinion. Whole this discussion is the exchange of views and opinions and hardly a facts. However I am surprised to see so many personal attacks over an opinion.

I really think we are now trying to fix something which is not broken. FA is popular and one hardly argue that one side wins more often than the other. Teams with mending sins and wammos still can win. I would not even say that the skill matters or even a given build it is rather the knowledge. If there is someone new he can really adjust during one game and can be a help to his team even with his random build.

Regarding proposed improvements. In my opinion winning on the luxon side will be easier than it is now. Which will force even more kurzicks to move to JQ.


I agree



Dude just check the border. It is in the middle of kurzick territory for months. Go to riverside and check the countless threads about it. IT IS THAT SIMPLE. You just do not get it and write walls of text which do not change the facts. You did not disprove anything. You just stated so. FACTS (border placement) are against your proves... But that is the AB discussion and it is offtopic.

I fully agree with what Ironsheik wrote. I do not think he does not see something to the contrary I think he has perfect understanding of the FA situation.


Me/N, N/Me, E/ME - you can have those combinations on luxon side and even 10 monks will not stop it but thats purely theoretical discussion. I suck as monk and luxon mesmers make me useless in my Kurzick monk games. Some mesmers I saw were really devastating to the MO part of kurzick team. Though you still have turtles to worry about...

@ Shasgaliel

1. The map isnt empty. In many cases (Fire AoEer is an exception) they help. Sometimes more, and sometimes less. Here's a good example for you: Inside the last room you can find NPCs that are extremely helpful, I might say. Furthermore, you couldnt say that, when they cooperating with the players, those NPCs dont make a difference. They do.


2. Since players make such a big difference (for example, making sure the turtle stops moving), I think this point is irrelevant. Not to mention the fact that the NPCs werent designed to fight alone in the first place (inside the fort)


3. Not every type of Me or N (depends on build) unless the monk isnt even decent, and you can find enough decent ones. Furthermore, this battle is all about Kurzicks buying time. Taking down the gate takes a lot more time as a melee, and this battle is about time like I already said, and we dont even need to mention how easy it is to bring the gate back. Time is the key word here.

The turtle helps a lot and the Luxons were designed to have this advantage. I dont see why they shouldnt. Just like the last NPC isnt supposed to be lured out of the last room (which helps the Luxons).

If one Me is able to shut down 2 monks, those were the worst monks FA map has ever seen. I dont even want to mention how bad were their team mates for not killing the Me. The theoretical case of 8 monks wont happen anyway, so there's no need to discuss it anymore than we already did.


4. The turtle can have a lot more impact then one player when inside the fort. Furthermore, I already mentioned the fact that its a Luxon advantage which they were designed to have. Please take a look at my comments (my last post) regarding RvR and FA.

5. Point 2 is irrelevant, explanations can be seen above.

6. I can argue with arguements but I cant argue with opinions.

7. See my comments regarding popularity of builds and FA: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&postcount=83

I'd also recommend taking a look at the relevant psychological facts mentioned here (because they influence the way players choose builds at FA): http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=96


8. Winning (or losing) chance wasnt the issue at hand. Furthermore, the winning chances vary and the only real statistic can be seen by A-Net employees. The issues I mentioned, including the one regarding the Luxons and the last NPC, still exist when they shouldnt.

9. There are facts in this thread, and well made arguements. They can be easily found. Furthermore, none of mine were refuted yet. There's a good reason for that too.

10. Please see my comments about the factors which influence performance (in my last post).

11. I disagree about the JQ comment.

I explained the border's position, although you might have missed it. Other than that nothing you said refuted any of the arguements you can find in my posts.

Like I said before, I can argue with arguements, but not with opinions like the one regarding Irosheik's post.


When a monk has a very good backup, he wont easily die. Not even the best Me can shut down two decent monks at once. Decent monks are easy to find. You also missed my comments about lockdown mesmers and their builds, when combined with usual (FA) monk behaviour and the rest of the team's behaviour. Keep in mind that a lockdown Me does mostly that, and to even consider really locking down two monks takes time and energy, both of which are going to prevent him from doing a serious amount of damage.

The problem that a lot of posters do not get is that the FA problem isn't a problem that is always present.
The problem pretty much only shows when you have decent to good players playing.
So that's why changing this won't magically make the Luxon win each and every single battle.
Why?
Because most of the time when the Luxon lose, it's because they run shit.

The problem are those cases when the Kurzick team is worse, yet they do not lose.

As a Luxon - run ench removal, run options that are suitable fort the map, get better!
The issue is that this applies to both sides and the best Kurzick options are stronger when played well than the best Luxon options when also played well.
And that has nothing to do with skill.
It's the map.

I am going to need to see builds for that.
Because my guess is that the monk sucked.

Once again - builds.
The damage is the problem of the necro and the mesmer. Hexes are not stackable so you will need a PARTY build whereas the direct damage options - which are decent - suffer from long recharges. That's why something like a Mind Blast ele/n is one of the best options. Being able to put out constant damage while having the energy for utility such as ench-removal is a winning combo.

@ upier
I totally agree, and supporter these with arguements in previous posts.

I think build discussion will be off-topic. In any case I can post the ones I use. They are probably not the best ones but since I am not a pvp player I stick to my own invention and pvx:
OQZTAUBPwIDEZZFZGYwDCA - instead of res I take leach signet or signet of humility. The drawback of this build I can already say it myself is pretty useless against kurzick when there are no monks on their side....
OQhkAgC8gGKSBgBZgHMDFBRcxA - instead of res as above.

As necro I would use corrupt enchatment as elite and profane as one of the skills. MM is quite annoying as well. At least to me when I play kurzicks. All those builds can be a pain for the monk but even a mending sin may take down such mesmer/necro... It is a random build wars. Both sides can equally anticipate.

Actually useful can also be a hammer warrior. You get kd, deep wound and in one shot get killed by a turtle while still on a ground. I played hammer war a few times and a few times against them and they do their job on luxon side.

I do not think luxons are really forced to team to win. They are forced to team when kurzicks are teaming and are organised. When luxons are organised then kurzicks need to be organised as well. I saw too many games when both teams were running around with no clue and one guy on one of the sides was actually making his team win. If you have one monk who is good and has a clue on kurzick side often it is still not enough to stop luxons. Stupid sin or ele can still break through the other gate and the whole fight moves to the green one. Then it all depends who communicates better, pings targets in team chat etc. Monk cannot heal all npcs at the same time and juggernaut walks away from the gate often to meet a certain doom. Trying to kill gunther with 2 monks helping him then indeed without something anti-monk can be a pain for luxons. But as Upier wrote it is a monk problem in GW. Maps can barely influence it.

As I wrote before as a luxon at first I just try to go through gates to see how far I can go before being stopped. Several times I ended up killing gunther when kurzicks were fighting with rest of luxons for an amber mine or killing commanders. Often kurzicks open the green gate while running amber even though luxons are there and I kill one of the gatekeepers thanks to that... In a few games I did not even manage to get through outer gates through the whole game. It all depends in my opinion on the organisation.

You may consider it relevant or not but the time you play FA do matter for the overall impression and experience. I have to say that playing outside ZQ times and during CET hours tends to bring better players and more balanced games however with significant waiting times.

In a few games I was able to kill sins with a fire ele in 1v1 duels and that in my opinion should never happen. The whole discussion is about balancing the FA but the randomness of the skill level of players does not allow to correctly judge the balance of the map.


Anyway I think it will be good to answer this question:
If the monks are so important for kurzicks why there are so few of them there?

My guess it is because it is just not fun to play monk for Kurzicks. You heal/prot squishy npcs. You are nr1 target for luxons. Mesmers and rangers make your life hard. Turtles with their abilities...
If what I wrote is true then this will even out imbalances since when there are no or few monks luxons do not have to focus on their builds so much. If I see more than one monk on kurzick side then I can bet that at least one of them is ROJ... Psychological aspects were covered by Pauli already but I will just say that when I can take whatever profession and still be on the winning side for me it means that I have a freedom.

My apologies for chaotic post I will try to edit it a bit later on.