Nerf Mark of Pain - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

04 Dec 2009 at 12:55 - 81

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The "overpowered" part of mark of pain comes in part from hundred blades and whirlwind attack having that odd effect and in part the fact that AI is just too stupid to not ball up.

MoP is probably more effective in PvE play than it should be, but it isn't the fault of the skill itself, just like empathy, spiteful spirit, VoR, and anything else AI lends itself weakness too.

If we argue that the stupidity of the foes is reason enough not to change a skill - then we can might as well argue that because SF has counters it's not really too strong.

Given the game we are playing right now with the skills available and the foes we go against MoP is dealing damage that shouldn't be possible.
Is that reason enough to trash it?
Like I said, meh.
Would the game be more balanced without it?
Yes.
Does that even matter?
Not really.

But to come here and argue that killing groups of 30 foes with one swing is somehow balanced ... well .. that's just insane. It's like "SR is NOT overpowered" all over again.

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

04 Dec 2009 at 13:41 - 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:W/N_Raptor_Farmer

The problem with SF is that it allows something that shouldn't be possible. And the amount of damage MoP outputs also shouldn't be possible.

Yeah SS is also run in farming builds , lets nerf it too and with that another 20 or more skills. Also you would have in some terms "a point" if that build could be used to farm anywhere.
If i make a build to farm Hidras with Soldier Stance and Healing skills , that elite should be nerfed ? ...... see my point ?. Theres a line between "extremely good and effective if used well and your party is dedicated to it" and "overpowered without a doubt" and without a doubt MoP did not cross it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Erm... yes?
That was my point.

Or mine , i posted in #26 saying almost the same , anyway it doesnt matter .

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

04 Dec 2009 at 14:52 - 83

It is a strong skill - but with stuff like SoH, GDW, OoP and EBSoH it isn't particularly strong, with some pros with loads of amassed enemies and cons when there are fewer enemies.

Reverend Dr

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]

W/

05 Dec 2009 at 03:41 - 84

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

But to come here and argue that killing groups of 30 foes with one swing is somehow balanced ... well .. that's just insane. It's like "SR is NOT overpowered" all over again.

Stop thinking we're all masterbating over how awesome is SF. Reactive conditional damage (curses line, most of the domination line, everything that isn't just "deal X damage") is going to be more powerful in PvE than PvP. Lets balance it all for PvE and suddenly noen of it is going to have a place in PvP where opponents don't ball up and constantly trigger conditional damage. While hex stack is a rather degenerate build, forcing the game to just "hounour balance" is not going to make the game good either.

SF works under a completely different MO. SF is invulnerability, okay maybe not complete invulnerability, but it allows one to ignore some (if not all) aspects of the game. Whether they let you ignore attacks, spells, conditions, or any other aspect of gameplay, such things should simply not exist in an MMO (this is easily expanded to include ob flesh, spellbreaker, vow of silence, avatar of melandru and others). Such things just don't belong in an MMO.

What you have issue with is how MoP stacks with whirlwind and hundred blades. Like most people on this board you get angry, oh so angry and you lash out at what you see causing this problem; like most others when they lash out, you fail to see where the real issue is: the way whirlwind and hundred blades work together. Take that raptor farm build, MoP is only used to kill the boss, whirlwind + hundred is enough to kill all of the babies; its whirlwild + hundred that is broken, not MoP.

EDIT: If the problem is stupidity of foes, then don't change the skill, change the stupidity of foes. Is addressing the root problem really that hard of a concept.

Apok Omen

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

Commence Aggro [BaMf]

Mo/E

05 Dec 2009 at 04:19 - 85

AI Update: no more than three foes will stand adjacent to each other.

Solves a lot of problems and gimmicks.

Skye Marin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2006

The Seraphim Knights [TSK]

E/A

05 Dec 2009 at 04:48 - 86

It's true that (Hundred Blades + Sun and Moon + Whirlwind Attack + Adrenaline Management) x 3 + Mark of Pain + Assassin's Promise + mob pulling and balling + an AoE Snare is powerful...

but man...

...that's a whole lot of plusses.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

05 Dec 2009 at 09:15 - 87

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Yeah SS is also run in farming builds , lets nerf it too and with that another 20 or more skills. Also you would have in some terms "a point" if that build could be used to farm anywhere.
If i make a build to farm Hidras with Soldier Stance and Healing skills , that elite should be nerfed ? ...... see my point ?. Theres a line between "extremely good and effective if used well and your party is dedicated to it" and "overpowered without a doubt" and without a doubt MoP did not cross it.

What you are describing as "dedicating your party to it" is what I describe as a "team build". And the funny thing is that "team builds" are KINDA the point of GW.
MoP deals damage that shouldn't be possible.
Otherwise we might as well get the old Splinter back, we might as well get CoP back, .... because if MoP-like damage is balanced then there really can be no such thing as too much damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Stop thinking we're all masturbating over how awesome is SF. Reactive conditional damage (curses line, most of the domination line, everything that isn't just "deal X damage") is going to be more powerful in PvE than PvP. Lets balance it all for PvE and suddenly noen of it is going to have a place in PvP where opponents don't ball up and constantly trigger conditional damage. While hex stack is a rather degenerate build, forcing the game to just "honour balance" is not going to make the game good either.

SF works under a completely different MO. SF is invulnerability, okay maybe not complete invulnerability, but it allows one to ignore some (if not all) aspects of the game. Whether they let you ignore attacks, spells, conditions, or any other aspect of gameplay, such things should simply not exist in an MMO (this is easily expanded to include ob flesh, spellbreaker, vow of silence, avatar of melandru and others). Such things just don't belong in an MMO.

What you have issue with is how MoP stacks with whirlwind and hundred blades. Like most people on this board you get angry, oh so angry and you lash out at what you see causing this problem; like most others when they lash out, you fail to see where the real issue is: the way whirlwind and hundred blades work together. Take that raptor farm build, MoP is only used to kill the boss, whirlwind + hundred is enough to kill all of the babies; its whirlwild + hundred that is broken, not MoP.

EDIT: If the problem is stupidity of foes, then don't change the skill, change the stupidity of foes. Is addressing the root problem really that hard of a concept.

No, what I have an issue with is MoP. (That doesn't mean that WA+HB is ok. Why is it impossible to have multiple things broken in this game?) Even if you are just running a few minions or some spear chuckers MoP will be dealing damage that isn't comparatively balanced. The raptor farmer just takes it to the extreme.

And considering how Splinter was changed because of this exact same issue, what makes MoP, a skill that functions under the same rule, so different that not only does it not justify a change but rather it's also not even overpowered?

Reverend Dr

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]

W/

05 Dec 2009 at 09:47 - 88

Splinter was changed because of VoD. It said so much in the update notes. I dug it up last time someone talked out of line about splinter, I don't feel like doing it again.

While splinter weapon has found a use in PvP, Mark of Pain has not ever. This is because humans aren't dumb. You want to change a skill because it is the AI that is dumb. That is addressing the symptom not the problem and it leads to nowhere good.

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

05 Dec 2009 at 10:25 - 89

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

What you are describing as "dedicating your party to it" is what I describe as a "team build". And the funny thing is that "team builds" are KINDA the point of GW.

Let me describe you another definition you seem to miss :
- Overpowered Skill : A skill of X type ( hex in this case ) that has more power IN ALL CASES , CONDITIONS and TEAM BUILDs than the REST of the skills of the same type.

Does MoP fit that definition ? no. The Answers ? check #26 .

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

MoP deals damage that shouldn't be possible.
Otherwise we might as well get the old Splinter back, we might as well get CoP back, .... because if MoP-like damage is balanced then there really can be no such thing as too much damage.

Let me remind you another thing , you know that when the MoP'ed target is attacked to trigger the hex .... it dies right ? because of so many hits. You are talking as the same hexed foe is dealing 5k damage in 10 seconds. You cant bring "AP kills recharge time" here because thats an AP "issue" that works with ALL skills ingame including PvE ones . And if you are going to mark MoP as "overpowered" oh boy , you are going to use that mark 20+ times.

PS: Seriously ,bringing up Raptor farming builds is pointless.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

05 Dec 2009 at 10:58 - 90

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Splinter was changed because of VoD. It said so much in the update notes. I dug it up last time someone talked out of line about splinter, I don't feel like doing it again.

While splinter weapon has found a use in PvP, Mark of Pain has not ever. This is because humans aren't dumb. You want to change a skill because it is the AI that is dumb. That is addressing the symptom not the problem and it leads to nowhere good.

The dev update in question:

Quote:

Splinter Weapon has turned the Victory or Death period in Guild vs. Guild matches into an NPC bloodbath. This in turn has lessened importance of early tactical maneuvers to kill NPCs earlier in the match. The new target limit should keep its power in check for this situation. Even so, we know that Splinter Weapon has been a favorite skill in high-end PvE and will be watching this change closely.

So help me out a bit with this. If I understand correctly, Splinter caused NPCs to blow up. Way to much damage, way to fast.
I am guessing this is what you meant with:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

VoD NPC balling as was the case with splinter and the tiebreaker as was the case with Finale of Restoration.

So, what's the difference with the MoP issue?
That it was used in PvP?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Let me describe you another definition you seem to miss :
- Overpowered Skill : A skill of X type ( hex in this case ) that has more power IN ALL CASES , CONDITIONS and TEAM BUILDs than the REST of the skills of the same type.

Does MoP fit that definition ? no. The Answers ? check #26 .

And we are done.

Reverend Dr

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]

W/

05 Dec 2009 at 11:10 - 91

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So, what's the difference with the MoP issue?

No difference. Both cases are cases of AI being dumb and balling. Both cases are cases of the skill itself not being the root of the problem. Both cases are cases where addressing the skill will leave the problem intact and with the problem intact future issues will arise.

Is "Addressing the problem" such a hard concept to grasp?

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

05 Dec 2009 at 11:38 - 92

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

No difference. Both cases are cases of AI being dumb and balling. Both cases are cases of the skill itself not being the root of the problem. Both cases are cases where addressing the skill will leave the problem intact and with the problem intact future issues will arise.

Is "Addressing the problem" such a hard concept to grasp?

What are the realistic chances of them fixing the core issue?
And what happens if they do NOT address the problem?
Is MoP balanced in such a case?

I pretty much based my opinion on the premise that they do not have the resources nor the willpower to fix the core issues.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

05 Dec 2009 at 11:51 - 93

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Stop thinking we're all masterbating over how awesome is SF.

He said SR, not SF. Soul Reaping is not Shadow Form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Is "Addressing the problem" such a hard concept to grasp?

The problem is not an easy issue to address.
Whatever happens, we're going to be facing an AI and that AI will follow a predictable set of rules. Ok, so some set of rules will be better than others, but humans will always learn to take advantage of them.

I would prefer a small bandage now, rather than wait 2 years for surgery that may never come.
I would like both, but the bandage is more likely to arrive.

Sethellington

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

nn

N/

05 Dec 2009 at 11:56 - 94

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

In PvE. Its scatter doesn't seem to be enough for it's deadly onslaught. It can make "the entire screen exploooooooooode" in seconds.

that's a good thing !

BadgerzFTW

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2008

05 Dec 2009 at 18:19 - 95

No for MoP nerf.
Yes for Barbs buff.

Reverend Dr

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]

W/

05 Dec 2009 at 22:00 - 96

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

He said SR, not SF. Soul Reaping is not Shadow Form.

I would prefer a small bandage now, rather than wait 2 years for surgery that may never come.

No he said SF.

Please lets bandage this one skill while all the far more gamebreaking ones run amok! Please lets get another bandage rather than proper fix, when bandage updates are what took this game from a large worldwide audience, to the garbage that is still playing today.

Sir Tieger

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2007

Jade Reapers [JD]

W/

05 Dec 2009 at 22:26 - 97

what most of you fail to realise when trying to compare MoP to Splinter is the fact one is removable and the other isnt.

Hence yes Splinter was broken due to the fact its a weapon spell IT IS NOT REMOVABLE!

MoP on the other hand...

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

05 Dec 2009 at 23:03 - 98

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

No he said SF.

The post where you quoted me I said SR.
And meant SR.

Reverend Dr

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]

W/

06 Dec 2009 at 06:33 - 99

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If we argue that the stupidity of the foes is reason enough not to change a skill - then we can might as well argue that because SF has counters it's not really too strong.

This is not to say that SF is good, this is to say that you can't even read your own posts correctly.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

06 Dec 2009 at 07:21 - 100

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

This is not to say that SF is good, this is to say that you can't even read your own posts correctly.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...2&postcount=85
The part you quoted before had SR in it.

Nereyda Shoaal

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2006

Deldrimor Warcamp

Mo/W

06 Dec 2009 at 11:12 - 101

No chance Jose
In 2 weeks time you'll ask for SS and 100b nerf.

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

06 Dec 2009 at 11:14 - 102

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nereida Shoal

No chance Jose
In 2 weeks time you'll ask for SS and 100b nerf.

Someone asked to change Barrage already .... how fun it is to nerf all skills that have some power instead buffing the ones that are so useless that you would delete them from the game.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

06 Dec 2009 at 12:02 - 103

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So help me out a bit with this. If I understand correctly, Splinter caused NPCs to blow up. Way to much damage, way to fast.
I am guessing this is what you meant with:

So, what's the difference with the MoP issue?
That it was used in PvP?

If I also remember correctly PvP NPCs were also nerfed after complaints that they did 1xx+ damage per hit with power shot, after the change to VoD that increased NPC damage at VoD.

So, if we going to MoP damage based on a nerf to splinters damage because of PvP , shall we also nerf MOB damage? I mean they deal a lot more than 1xx+ damage per hit!

Rushin Roulette

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Right here

Ende

06 Dec 2009 at 12:28 - 104

Wow, whats up with all these idiots demanding to change every damn single spell that deals any form of damage?

Lookign back at the Topics;
Nerf Ursan (Countless)
Nerf SF (also countless)
Nerf Dwaynas Kiss
Nerf Barbs
Nerf SS
Nerf Minons
Nerf Soul Reaping
Nerf Save yourself
Nerf Spell Breaker
Nerf Obsidian Flesh
Nerf PvE Skills
Nerf MoP
Every one of them is from players that have not understood the mechanics of either;
A ) the Class they wish to Nerf (Necros are Masters of indirect damage and party damage support)
B ) The idea that GW consists of more than X Skill they wish to nerf). Just dont use the damn skill, shut up and learn the damn game
C ) Just trolling, Flaming or Crying that they are too dumb to use the skill (Like here) correctly.

I Have MoP stapled on quite a few of my Necro Bars... and do you know what? I manage to use it without a single Hero or Henchman using any tanking skills, no 600 Monk, no SF, no Obbyflesh.

MoP is an amazingly good skill if you know how to use it. It will blow up everything in seconds... if you know how to use it.... If not, then it will do absolutely no damage what so ever.
Its the same with FoWSC groups. I have seen some fail at the Forgemaster because players stood too close to the Forgemaster and got hexed with MoP themselves from the Necro Foes or they failed in the Forrest, because they bunched up too close to the NPC that shouldnt be damaged (Forgot the name, but you know which one I mean). This shows that MoP can easily also effectively work against you, so I see no reason to nerf that skill.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

06 Dec 2009 at 15:59 - 105

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

Wow, whats up with all these idiots demanding to change every damn single spell that deals any form of damage?

Doesn't include this thread. This thread is about a skill that does obscene amount of damage which makes the game imbalanced.

If Cry of Pain was seen as too powerful (which required "technique") then so should Mark of Pain.

T1Cybernetic

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2005

Wakefield, West Yorkshire, Uk, Nr Earth

Alternate Evil Gamers [aeg]

N/

06 Dec 2009 at 16:40 - 106

It seems to me that a combination of skill/s along with mark of pain is the problem not the skill itself? Alone the skill is not really so great.

But then again the same can be said for many other skills

Alone they can and do suck bad but a combination of skills can be deadly.

Bug John

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

06 Dec 2009 at 17:41 - 107

another thread made by someone who has no clue

MoP is in no way overpowered

MoP aoe spike can be seen as overpowered

the spike comes from the fact that splinter and 100b both do PHYSICAL damage, that is what you'd have to change if you wanted to kill manly spike

Dervish Kid

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

Florida

D/

06 Dec 2009 at 17:50 - 108

No thanks..because it does to much damage? its not even a damage spell, its only useful when triggered by physical damage thus, blind/or reckless haste would counter it?

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

06 Dec 2009 at 18:17 - 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dervish Kid

its not even a damage spell, its only useful when triggered by physical damage thus, blind/or reckless haste would counter it?

Two things. You'd need mass blind and Reckless Haste wouldn't do much. Second, it is a damage spell. It's hard take your view seriously when you say that.

So.

If Mark of Pain isn't over powered? That means rangers, dervish, mesmers, and elementalists should be able to smash face with X000 damage single spells? Oh wait, they can do hundreds with a spear when someone has Mark of Pain.

Really, 100b is nice, but not required.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

06 Dec 2009 at 19:55 - 110

If MoP was overpowered, it's been overpowered long, long before this thread. I don't see why only now it's being mentioned. If it was really a problem, you would have made this thread alongside whichever skill update brought it into its current state. /notsigned

ddraeg cymru

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2006

The Guardians Of Wales [GoW]

Mo/

06 Dec 2009 at 20:09 - 111

5o i hurd peepal com hear tu complayne abowt skilz.

Wish they would just clear up these QQ threads.

/notsigned

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

06 Dec 2009 at 20:39 - 112

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

you would have made this thread alongside whichever skill update brought it into its current state. /notsigned

That's pretty silly and doesn't give any reason why something should stay the same.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

06 Dec 2009 at 20:51 - 113

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

If Mark of Pain isn't over powered? That means rangers, dervish, mesmers, and elementalists should be able to smash face with X000 damage single spells? Oh wait, they can do hundreds with a spear when someone has Mark of Pain.

Really, 100b is nice, but not required.

And sometimes MOP will deal exactly 0 damage.

So it isn't "press 1 button = thousands of damage".

If it was "press 1 button = thousands of damage" sure it would be overpowered.

You can say that it doesn't take much skill to achieve all optimal conditions, but compared to other things in PvE...

PvE RPG games were never known to be incredibly challenging.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

06 Dec 2009 at 20:54 - 114

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

That's pretty silly and doesn't give any reason why something should stay the same.

Why'd you wait so long to complain then?

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

06 Dec 2009 at 21:39 - 115

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

That's pretty silly and doesn't give any reason why something should stay the same.

Hi , have you read any answers ? that would be true if you ignore 99% of the answers to this thread.

Copenhagen Master

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

El Centro CA

Lazy Imperius Legionis (LaZy)

W/P

06 Dec 2009 at 21:47 - 116

It is a single skill that causes bascially AOE dmg for a melee person. So group up a big group= more dmg. Be the same and say casting searing flames or some other AOE spell.

NOT SIGNED

ValaOfTheFens

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2006

Warrior Nation[WN]

06 Dec 2009 at 22:18 - 117

Are we talking about in HM or NM? A skill's effectiveness doesn't really matter in NM cuz NM is easy mode and you could prolly complete each campaign w/o any skills in your bar at all. What matters is how a skill does in HM. Good skills can be used for farming and general PvE but just because a skill is used in farming doesn't make it degenerate.

I'm not impressed as to how ANet deals with "broken" skills or farming builds. The EW nerf singlehandedly made me shelf my Ranger for 2 years. I absolutely loved trapping and had gotten skilled enough to solo trap in UW. This was the SF farm before SF farming and enough people QQ'ed about it that ANet simply made a key skill obsolete. EW was good for more than solo trapping but now people barely remember it exists. I'm happy ANet hasn't simply nerfed every half-decent skill because some bloke can't get in a party w/o being one of the preferred classes or because someone is envious of his pal with Obby armor, a VS, etc and wants to stop his money train.

LunchboxOctober

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2008

Canada, eh

The Unsound Souls [Soul]

W/

07 Dec 2009 at 00:24 - 118

The damage output from MoP is easy to achieve on any level if you just do three things (effectively known as a combo).

1) Rally the mob - keep all those pesky party members out of your aggro bubble and get the enemies in a juicy circle. This can be done by most melee professions.

2)Snare them, Grasping Earth is an ideal choice.

3)Ping your target and let the physical damage rip.

Of course this can be done with any AoE skill from many other lines, people just prefer it because of Hundred Blades + Whirlwind Attack ability to hit the hexed target many times.

And this can all be done without a perma sin.

You might call it tank'n'spank, I call it "Hey! The AI stands in one spot because they're stupid!"

Really, MoP is a skill designed for intelligent use, considering that if your party is doing mainly physical damage it is probably not outputting large amounts of area of affect. And it's really hit or miss unless it's in the hands of a skilled player.

Wubbies

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2008

Bananna Dipper

It Varies

W/

07 Dec 2009 at 01:58 - 119

Can we nerf signet of return?
i feel its to powerful of a res. with no energy cost and repeatable res..its WAY to overpowered!

After that can we nerf this silly thread of people wanting to nerf skills just because they are re-tard-did.

pls close thread
if there is a god
/signed nerf muffins with crumbs

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

07 Dec 2009 at 10:13 - 120

Quote:

Originally Posted by LunchboxOctober

And it's really hit or miss unless it's in the hands of a skilled player.

The question is - is it too much of a hit in the hands of a skilled player? Is the reward too big?