Nerf Mark of Pain

wtf is this topic... i assume the thread maker is referrring to the use of MoP in the Manly spike isn't it?

well let me say, go there and try without mop, the real overpowered skill, if there is, is 100b, not MoP... idk why ppl LOVE nerf... i say BOOOST others to make more choice, no nerf everything!

ps: useless, troll thread. close.

Even if the player uses MoP on the correct target, then the other party members need to focus on that target.

If the MoP player targets the wrong target (or the target flee, the mob spreads) it is down for 20 seconds.

Sure, with AP and/or consumables it won't be down for 20 seconds, but that isn't the skill problem - those are problems related to things that ignore game mechanics.

Other skills like death blossom, whirlwind attack, crude swing, etc, will also deal massive damage in the same circumstances while working against a solo target.

So that would mean if you fail at using a skill, that skill can not be overpowered?

This is DB:

The problem is that MoP turns a minion attack into Death Blossom.
It turns a spear attack into DB.
And when using DB - it does that on top of DB. Twice actually.
All without the need for melee range, without the need to actually max out DM, without the need for a chain.



If the AI stays on the level of stupidity we see now, then MoP is one of those things that isn't acceptable.

Basically you are just saying AI sucks and their builds suck.


So by making a MOB take 2 minutes to die opposed to 30 seconds will improve the game in what manner?

Slower game is a better game?

EDIT:

Lets look at (old) CoP - you cast a mesmer hex, AoE preferably, and then all your guys with CoP can overload the enemy with AoE damage (in the area AoE btw).

Now MoP - you cast a necromancer hex. Then you need to deal physical damage (that means attacks).

How do you counter CoP?

You have hex removal, but removing AoE mesmer hexes isn't as easy as removing a single hex. You can interrupt CoP, but CoP is quite hard to interrupt and it is a interrupt itself.

How do you counter MoP?

Well, you can interrupt MoP, but lets forget that one.

You can remove MoP - it is a single hex after all.

You can blind/hex attackers or cast blocking skills on the target of MoP (or simply cast AoE blocking skills like wards/aegis).

CoP has no counters - it would be overpowered even on PvP with human players trying to keep apart.

MoP has counters - it is not used on PvP at all.

Yes, AI is dumb, but give better builds/team builds to AI, and MoP becomes a lot tamer.

And by the way, how do you want to nerf it? 3-4 targets max? So, you nerf like raptor farm and 2-3 more places?

Is that with or without splinter wep? Your Pic is a little misleading.

If it is, then splinter is accounting for about half of the damage there, not just mop doing all of it.

DB accounts for all the 43s, Splinter for all the 47s.
You can't see the damage from MoP if it's there.
The 2 80+ hits are the damage done from DB attacks to the target. Not sure about the 30ish hit, auto-attack maybe?

"I got bored... what skill can I QQ next about?" - thread.

Some sad argumentation you've got.

Balance does not mean turning everything into: "skill that does 1 damage. And all skills ever will do 1 damage cause... we have the most balanced game eva!"

You guys really seem to drive everything in that direction. "1 damage for the win". I thought GW was ruined by the stupid nerfs ANet came up with and horrible maintenance. But now since I follow this forum I think it's you the QQ-ers that are to blame. Always asking for nerfing things that are perfectly fine finding non-problems every day... The only fault ANet has is having listened to your QQ-ing assuming "you are the community" when you're just a bunch of people crying loud representing nothing of the community at large... but with big egos thinking "you know it all".

The more nerf this and that I see the more I get to believe this forum is what needs nerfing... or even better: close it down. Nothing good came of it so far; or I haven't really seen it.

Less than half that damage is from MoP, You have Splinter weapon and DB up at the same time, Im guessing only the 43 or the 47 damages are actually pure MoP, the rest can be ignored as having nothing to do with MoP and also therefore not relevant to this topic.

Actually, you can't tell how much damage is done at all from Mark Of Pain in that screenshot because the player doesn't even have it equipped. The only thing I gathered from this thread is how all skills that combine well with others should be nerfed. If that is the case, then anything introduced to the game after Mark Of Pain should be first on the chopping block. Get real people. The skill has been virtually untouched since GW first went live. Direct your frustration to the AI, not the skill. If only 10% of you people complained about the stupidity of the AI, then maybe the AI would receive a much needed buff.



Jayce Of Underworld

As Jayce said, the build in the picture doesn't even have MoP.
It's a simple SW+DB (as I said).
The reason why I posted it was because it shows the principle under which MoP functions. When you have foes balled up, this is the kind of damage you can be achieving with MoP also.
The difference?
The SW+DB combo requires an assassin pulling off his chain. It requires the said assassin to max out his DM. It requires a ritualist with maxed out Channeling to put Splinter on said assassin.
And when it comes to MoP - you can get a caster to throw a spear, with 0 SM, at the MoPed target and cause this kind of damage. You can get a minion to do the same. And the simple fact that you know how to equip a physical weapon and can hurl it at the called target does not justify that kind of damage.

One thing is synergy.
And the other thing is just mental, out of control damage. And while DB is certainly very close to being in this category (and it probably is due to how spammable it is), MoP most definitely is.

You can say that about 10000 times and still ppl wont get it , sometimes is better to leave and see ants fight each other.

But didn't you see upier already talk about this, clearly Anet is not going to ever address the AI issues. So the best we can hope for is an unsatisfactory band-aid fix every month. No we should be embracing those band-aid fixes that leave everyone displeased. The people that wanted the nerf are displeased because immediately another AI exploiting build takes its place; the people that used the skill are displeased because only the high efficiency build they have been using is changed, while other just as efficient builds remain.

You just don't understand man. You should be embracing this change. If you don't then you are the same as those people that have argued against every other change that has ever been made in the history of guild wars. Did you know that arguing against this kind of logic causes world hunger? That's how bad of a person you are.

The change to Smiter's Boon was a bandage.
Based on your argument, the game would be more balanced if SB was potentially left in the game in it's previous form?

In the case of MoP the problem is AI, which you want to ignore.

In the case of smiter's boon the problem was a mechanism that just should not be in the game (smite being able to redbar).

One is a PvE problem which is a drop in the bucket compared to other PvE problems.

The other was a PvP problem which itself created an unfun meta.

Still none of this explains why a band-aid fix that will satisfy neither side should be acceptable.

The problem of this thread is that there is a number of people here who actually refuse to accept that the effect of MoP (= the amount of damage dealt) in the current game is problematic.

Does that justify ANY KIND of a change?
It would if the name of the PvE game was balance.
It is not.

So IF the name of the game was balance, then changing the AI is the superior solution. Because I believe that that solution is in NO WAY a realistic one, that would mean that IF we strived for a balanced game, a band-aid solution would need to be considered.
But as I said, the name of the game isn't balance so this is pretty irrelevant.
But this in no way changes the fact that the effects of MoP are still problematic.

MoP is 1 hex. There are plenty strong hex removals out there.

Since the MoBs are stupid and can't remove hexes/their builds are bad and can't remove hexes, lets get ride of all hexes in game.

Then the mobs can't remove enchantments either, so lets remove all enchantments.

The mobs can't spread - lets remove all AoE attacks and all AoE spells and all snares for good measure.

The mobs are bad at removing conditions - lets remove all conditions from game.

A skill that is balanced by the fact it is single target hex, so easy to remove, easy to counter by the target or the team target as they only need to not be in adjacent range and because it has a 20s recharge.

By your logic, any skill that takes advantage of adjacent range is overpowered because the AI can't really deal with it.

As we can see, MoP is useless when the AI is better - look at PvP where it never made an impact.

People keep thinking PvE has to require the same amount of skill as PvP - it wont happen!

Some of the game skills were clearly designed to take advantage of a DUMB AI, or do you think skills like Gladiators Defense, Spiteful Spirit and Endure Pain were created to be used against humans?

People keep talking about balance in PvE - balance in PvE is balance between professions it isn't between players and MoBs. Players win, mobs die, players pickup rewards - but what they mean is "restricted group of players can accomplish X and noone else can". If that happened they would call PvE balanced.

I guess the AI isn't so dumb because it took like 4 years for people to pick up the power of MoP or is it only because there are spears for casters? Bows worked as fine before.

/claps

Excellent post. Exactly my opinion as well. Mobs are there to die for loot (not win). All these posts to nerf this and that are explained exactly by some players' "elite" ego as you said (="promote skillful play" exclusive crap only for GW rocket scientists). When that has nothing to do with balance.

As you say, MoP could be called unbalanced only when I would stay in ToA with my ele unable to find a pug cause everybody wants only necros with MoP in their party (like it used to be with CoP). But hey... that's not at all the case! Actually MoP would be a really bad choice for UW. Go figure.

MoP is one of the good skills in GW. The fact that the majority of GW skills are junk doesn't mean MoP should be turned to junk as well (reducing the already weak number of good skill choices), rather the opposite maybe other skills need to be buffed?

Then lets buff all damage skills to do thousands per cast with some fake drawback?

What the heck ? when ppl read this thread though you were joking but now its seems you have gone out of your mind. What has any damage skills to do with a hex that only triggers with phys damage and damages adjacent foes ?.

Fake drawback?

MoP takes some 14 triggers to kill a 600 health target and 11 to kill a 480 target and the MOb just has to remove a single hex or not stay in adjacent range.

Sure, the manly spikes team simple ignore that shit, but its a collection of overpowered builds/skills.

The rest is just generic AI incompetence and stupid MOB builds design.

AI in PvE simply can't handle hexes, conditions and enchantments. It just can't.

You put some dude in front or in some geographic corner, put some enchantments on him and it's set.

To nerf that situation without AI improvements you just will have to remove every single skill that can hit multiple targets.

It can take 10 hours instead of 1 minute, but in the end, other than the ability to stay alive/having a good connection, the skill or lack of it is the same.

Edit: And by the way I would gladly increase the damage of spells (especially for HM) as long as non-interactive skills and/or skills that don't involve resource thinking get the nerf bat.

How the hell you think this skill is overpowerd. This skill is use only in FoW sc and raptor farm W/N. I can say this skill is weak. 20 sec recharge time, hexing ONLY target, on curse 8 it does only 26 dmg, on 10 curse 30 dmg, and on 12 curse 34 dmg. Any monk can easy remove this hex. I never take this skill, because i like area hex just like meekness, great skill can hex whole party.
Also hero cant use MoP good.

Splinter weapon >>>....>>> Mark of pain

Hahaha!

Oh wait, are you being serious?

That is funny.

Maybe its not MoP and other skills that need nerfed.

Just maybe its not the skills that are being abused here.

You have to look at things as what happens first.....then second then third in order to understand everything.

FIRST THING that occurs. Aggro. .

Second thing to happen is the balling effect.

Third thing is casting (MoP) on the correct target.

I don't think I need to go in detail about each step really in order to prove my point.

So now ask yourself....Is it MoP that needs to be nerfed? (or other skills) or is it enemy AI? If the AI of foes, used a "spread out" tactic more than a ball on one......then would skills like MoP (like in your mind) need nerfed.

AI "balling" happens before MoP. Do you really think MoP needs nerfed?

I'm not saying to go back and completely rewrite AI. I'm merely pointing out a different way to look at things. I dont think one skill is the problem.

This thinking also works with Shadow Form. Once again, do they really need to nerf it? or do they need to nerf how foes interact with it? Ok I'm attacking something that cant be attacked, why am I still attacking this when there are others to be attacked?

Although the ones for nerfing MoP are the most obvious trolls on the forum and for any stupid thing and against any good idea, i do feel the need to say something about this, mainly because i have been using MoP since the moment i got it ...

MoP is balanced in itself, the more you hit the foe hexed with it, the sooner it dies, then MoP ends and 'on itself' takes some time to recharge...

MoP doesnt do insane damage unless you have a devoted Curses necro (as allready pointed out, at the 9-12 curses range it hardly does that much damage... and if you trigger it fast the target hexed will die, ending it...

I searched for a very long time to come across a good trigger for it, as using a bow or a spear means 'as a curser' you weaken yourself allot by giving up your Wand/offhand + Mods... perhaps with a spear this is less so, since you can keep your offhand, but untill there are 'curses' spears this remains to be true to some extend.

MoP is allready nerfed with the spreading of Foes on AoE damage, after about 2 triggers the group scatteres and all sort of things can happen from there on ... upto total teamwhipes, it can be as dangerous and it is good...

MoP is just one Hex, the fact that hardly any NPC build comes with removal, where there are tons available, is no the fault of MoP... This sets it appart from splinter weapon, as allready mentioned, which couldnt be removed ... but even if it could be removed, splinter weapon works on every weapon and does not need a special target to be hit, nor does it end if this target is killed...

MoP is similar to Roger's which is triggered by fire damage, the fact that THAT skill is used in PvP, might mean that its a better candidate to get nerfed, though i would prefer just burning to be tuned down... so at OP and Pro-MoP-nerfers, if you want MoP nerfed then please also whine about Roger's ...

One thing i would agree upon is the current trigger by Minions, i would have expected minions to deal cold damage like most Death magic spells do cold, but here again applies, the more minions around the Hexed NPC the sooner it dies, the sooner MoP ends...

Then if one were to look at the Nerf requests, it strikes me most are Necro spells, does the envy of Soul Reaping run so deep? As a necro player there are way better energy management Primary's that i would love to have, seeing, aslong as nothing dies im drawing blanks, this is especially so in PvP ... Energy Storrage w/ enchantments or fast casting with energy gain spells, if only curses could hit a dent in a package of butter at 12 curses, then sure ... but seeing atleast one person mention Necro = Easymode, then he obviously hasnt played necro ... further more, are there even PvP builds that include a necro, after the numerous nerfs to IWAY ? ...

Then in PvE, most requested Necro Build is still Minions, after that aslong as you bring SS anything will do, after that its BiP for some special places, not once i have been asked to bring MoP or to bring MoP with an Echo on a two melee teambuild (might be fun though, but does this make it OP?*), so other then perhaps the Manly build in raptor farm it isnt demanded asmuch as SF is demanded in numerous area's or BiP's in certain places ... Bloodmagic (appart from BiP), Welling, Orders are all roles of the Necro that are pretty much obsolete or nerfed to oblivion ...

* If this would make it op then any AoE with Snares can be considdered OP, but like mentioned its the combining of skills that makes for great builds, which is what GW-skills is about, Barsynergy and/or Teamsynergy (just like in Magic The Gathering it is your Deck's synergy that makes a good deck) remove that and there is no game left?

So in my views a skill becomes OP if there is nothing you can do about it (like weapon spells) or which make 'impossible' things possible (like SF to some extend), or certain team builds that exclude a large part of the other professions to such an extend that those places cant be accessed by those players; MoP does not fall in either of those catagories, it does a decent ammount of damage in certain situation under certain (alot of) requirements, but there are allot of other spells that do the same and dont even need those requirement, perhaps asking to nerf those would be more suited, though, isnt that another thing what GW is about, killing Mobs (like allready mentioned) ?

I vote Nerf the world! +1close

He wants to nerf it because hes a crappy Mop necro in fow..

nuff sed?

/notsigned

/not signed.

The one thing I've always detested in GW is the "Nerf this, nerf that, nerf the other!!" attitude. But then, that I suppose, is what to expect from a game designed to pick up and play fast, without a massive amount of time investment.

In Neverwinter Nights, rarely did u see QQ's about this, that or the other being overpowered, we just used our heads and actually designed counter builds, rather than cry. Now understand, that in NwN there is no "Go to town and rebuild in 30 secs" option. You want to change a build, no worries. All you need to do is de-level until your change point. Then all you have to do is earn all the levels back.

Seriously all you nerf-happy folks, learn to think, learn to build, learn to stop whinging, and if you can't, hell, just go back to Internet Hearts. That game doesn't require much thought, so u should have little to cry about.

Can everyone stop being a retard using false arguments just because they think they even have a clue ? Or just going all dramaqueen or HES A DRAMAQUEEN for no apparent reason ?

MoP *can* be OP.The reason it came up now is AP,Hundred blades and just everybody playing Hard Mode.Normal mode is for "newbs that can't play the game" now and Hard Mode is the only way to get your epeen up and get "the things you already deserve".

This means that armor ignoring skills will automatically shine especially with the skills introducedo nly later in the game (splinter weapon,AP,Hundred blades) Yes these skills have been in the game for some time now but its the combination of these that made MoP so popular.I wouldn't opose to a nerf and think the OP is right to some degree.

the skill is fine

kthxbye

Mark Of Pain is as overpowered as any PvE skill, but are people asking for a nerf on Ymlad, FH or Save Yourselves? No.

I would rather see Discord nerfed to bits. Let's get people thinking instead of relying on bots to play for them.

MoP is not as overpowered as SY!, FH!, Scan, WWAttack, or a number of other PvE skills.

MoP is not as overpowered as AP. (And, to repeat myself, AP is the source of the awesomesauce in AP-MoP. Left to its natural recharge, MoP is balanced or even a little weak.)

MoP is a better skill than Discord, by a large margin. But, Discord has a much, much higher effect::thought_and_effort_required ratio than MoP does. Insofar as we want to encourage skillful play, Discord should be second on the chopping block following Shadow Form. (Like you say, bots do all the work.) Also, by that criterion MoP is probably one of the best skills to leave as is, since it requires more thought and effort to use to good effect than just about any other offensive spell.

Agreed. I never used to run MoP when I ran something other than AP. I was only comparing MoP to Discord because it seems to be one or the other in every h/h team.

It's fine as is. Stop over exaggerating.

/not signed .

If you don't like how good MoP is in the hands of a good player then don't use it .

QFT

Cause actually SF is the problem not MoP.

You don't need Shadow Form for MoP to smash face.

And "don't like how good MoP is in the hands of a good player then don't use it" is a poor reason not to balance something.

People seem to agree necros are the most powerful caster profession for damage, but then...

But think about what you're saying, Cuil.

As soon as MoP is nerfed, it simply means SOMETHING ELSE will be the most powerful caster profession, and someone will be whining about that profession until it's weakened, and possibly the necromancer will be better again. And the vicious circle carries on until every attack deals 20 armour dependent damage with minimal secondary effects.

It should keep going till there is actual balance.

Mobs generally don't ball up anyway, and if they do, it won't last long since they'll go after different targets. If anything, they should tone down some other skills. SY!, TNTF, SoS, AP, and the list goes on. You're an incredibly good troll to say MoP is insanely op and still going on with this.