Actually...i think SF should stay.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again View Post
The fact that people consider a "balanced" team to require a tank to hold aggro really shows how much this game has fallen, and how much the mindset of many players have grown accustomed to that.
Real balanced doesn't really work in DoA HM...with 100 life steal hungers what do you suggest people do? For UW, try doing 4 horsemen without some sort of a tank, in HM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~ View Post
I agree that the rewards should match the challenge involved. Right now with UWSCs & SF, the rewards are much greater than the challenge involved. Conversely, with balanced groups/ PUGs, the rewards are too low for the challenge involved. Back in the day, when ectos were worth 12K +, the reward matched the challenge for balanced groups/pugs.
Hmm let see...12k x 2 ectos = 24k...+2k of junk = 26k. Divide that by 3 hours + 1 hour due to pug failures (this is conservative, pug fail way more) = 6.5k per hour. Nope, raptor farm and feather farm is still way faster, please try again. I'll like to complete my GWAMM before guild wars 3 comes out, tyvm.

Golgotha

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trader of Secrets View Post
I think SF should stay, but should be non-damaging, just a harmless tank
Waste of a party member then.

Nerf it, I couldn't care less anymore. These endless debates are.. well, endless. I'm just tired of GW players pointing the finger at everything but the root of the problem.

some guy

some guy

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

SPAWN CAMPING YOUR HOUSE

We Speed Clear H O H [ HsC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgotha View Post
Pick up some random PvP'ers.. not much different. Like an entire team watching as the lone anti-caster is taking down my monk while bashing on minions. The average player is just that -- average. Given that a high percentage of knowledgeable players have moved on, that would mean what was once considered below average or even poor is now the mean. This fact applies for all areas, PvE or PvP.
Just my opinion is that PvP can teach you stuff where a hardcore PvE player may or probably not know. I still like to play with people that has a least some PvP knowledge :/ That's just me,anyways don't want to derail the subject of the thread so back to SF.

SF is like ursan, it eventually got hit. A lot of people defended ursan and a lot of people wanted ursan to go. The point is SF is going.

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChosen View Post
Real balanced doesn't really work in DoA HM...with 100 life steal hungers what do you suggest people do? For UW, try doing 4 horsemen without some sort of a tank, in HM.
I'm not blaming the players here. I'm blaming ANet for thinking "more damage = more challenge", and doing a lot of other poor decisions.

kbizzle

kbizzle

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: May 2006

az

kush

N/

Yes, nerf SF and give warriors an AoE Taunt skill

Crippie its Tom

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2007

Canada!

none atm

R/A

my guild does 9 dungeons with permaform, all under 30 mins, and it's not OP?

some guy

some guy

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

SPAWN CAMPING YOUR HOUSE

We Speed Clear H O H [ HsC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again View Post
I'm not blaming the players here. I'm blaming ANet for thinking "more damage = more challenge", and doing a lot of other poor decisions.

this guy speaks the truth

FyrFytr998

FyrFytr998

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Connecticut USA

[ITPR]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axeman002 View Post
Having done an UW run and realizing how much of an ass it is for Balanced teams....SF was a vitally important part of the structure as i doubt most of the other tanks can hold the aggro as long as needed like SF can...i know alot of people have a deep hate for SF and will probably have heart failure at seeing my post...but for this new UW i reckon it should stay as a tank perma but make it like feigned neutrality where if u use a spell if cancels out.

apart from the QQ posts anyone else agree on this?
Agree.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crippie its Tom View Post
my guild does 9 dungeons with permaform, all under 30 mins, and it's not OP?
I guess 30 min for 2 diamonds is slightly better than 2 hours for 2 diamonds...

Hyperventilate

Hyperventilate

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

Somewhere in California

I Gots A Crayon [Blue]

Me/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by FyrFytr998 View Post
Agree.
I lol'd. I lol'd so hard. But SF still needs to go. :P

+5 for artistic style.

XxSanctusxX

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2007

Nl

LF HighEndPve

N/

Have to support Axe on this one, havent played since UW nerf (quit game really, not cuz of that). I didnt like SF because it was so easy to make money with it, but because it was great for pugging. Every thread on guru is either: There is nog more pugging, or SF is op. Both are true, but SF made for great pugging, which will stop if it gets nerfed. 90% of gw wont be good enough to finish UW, and 99% of pugs will fail. Great way to play a game then..

Stop The Storm

Stop The Storm

Keeping DoA Alive

Join Date: Jan 2007

England

Were In [DoA]

A/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carboplatin View Post
People were doing UW with core+ prophecies skills only without cons or pve skills.

you don't need SF.

after hardmode was introduced? no they wasnt.

BlackSephir

BlackSephir

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

A/N

Why the hell is this thread still open? Mods don't get their cool points by doing their job?

isildorbiafra

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

The Netherlands

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again View Post
I'm not blaming the players here. I'm blaming ANet for thinking "more damage = more challenge", and doing a lot of other poor decisions.
I hate to point it out; but your thinking is flawed. What ANet is actually thinking is: More damage=More copies sold!

We the player base dont contribute to ANet once we have bought the game. The only way for ANet to make money is to keep on selling more copies. And the only way they can do so this late in the game is by dumbing it down so as to keep it atractive for newcomers.

ANet has a clearly defined goal; and believe me its not about balance or content. Its about MONEY!

THIS IS THE PRICE WE ALL PAY FOR NO MONTHLY FEES.

Now I say nerf the game; and rollout GW2 allready.

Here ends the lesson.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by kedde View Post
UW was never too hard 4,5 years ago.
It isn't today either, not with HM either since so many options for making you and your team have a raise in power higher than the enemies you fight are numerous in means of cons, stupidly powerful skills, and pve skills.
UW isn't hard. Getting through UW with a PUG is hard.

BlackSephir

BlackSephir

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

A/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildorbiafra View Post
ANet has a clearly defined goal; and believe me its not about balance or content. Its about MONEY!
We're not in the 8bit era any more. Every game in the last 20 years or so was made for money. That didn't stop the devs for making good content and balancing their games.

sickle of carnage

sickle of carnage

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2007

Textual Harassment [kTHX]

I agree with OP, it's become such a big part of the game that if it's removed we'll see even more balance issues.

This is not a QQ, just my opinion

HawkofStorms

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir View Post
Why the hell is this thread still open? Mods don't get their cool points by doing their job?
Agreed. I don't like the schizophrenic enforcement of the rules.
This thread: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10416034
gets closed immediately because its a violation of forum rules because it includes a topic that was already discussed... once... 9 months ago.

But the 8172th thread about SF qq gets to stay open?

Martin Alvito

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkofStorms View Post
Agreed. I don't like the schizophrenic enforcement of the rules.
A hazard of having ten mods plus admins. It's like having a dozen parents that all feel obligated to uphold the decision of the first parent to address a problem, even when they don't agree with it, then talk out the issue behind closed doors.

Not that I'm saying there's a more optimal solution given the circumstances. It'd be unreasonable to ask a single admin/mod to deal with this forum, or even a very small group, on a purely volunteer basis. All we can do is send them signals via our posts that this needs to be closed.

Hint, hint.

Fay Vert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/

+1 before the long overdue close

Aba

Aba

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2006

Vancouver,Canada

Quote:
Actually...i think SF should stay.
Well if you say so....
We will let Anet know you've decided.
Thank god thats solved.

refer

refer

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2009

US

Isn't UW an ELITE area? It's not supposed to be easy or not annoying.

Arduin

Arduin

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

The Netherlands

Limburgse Jagers [LJ]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killamus View Post
snip
My personal problem with Shadow Form is the mechanism of the skill, not the fact that it favors 6+ Assassins in a team of 8. I think it is rather enjoyable to have a group of similar professions, just like people are clearing FoW with a Mesmer-only team.

I don't bother with the aggrocontrol in the sense of waiting until a tank grabs all foes around him, waits a bit more so they are all clumped together, gives a sign, and people start killing safely from a distance. This had nothing to do with gathering aggro, or watching the minimap, more so with given the foes only one target to focus on, the tank.

Anyway, I was only countering the claim of 'UW being impossible without SF, or without tanks'. It is apparent it is not impossible. If the process is rewarding enough in NM is a personal opnion, so let's leave it there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killamus View Post
Oh yea, and to whomever says that tank and spank is not a good idea... Let's look at the pros vs the cons:
I think it is a boring way of playing this game.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by refer View Post
Isn't UW an ELITE area? It's not supposed to be easy or not annoying.
Yes, so is DoA and look what happened to it after nerfing Ursan. It is a ghost town. Good luck trying to find a successful balanced PUG to clear it.

The problem with making elite areas really hard is, that would exclude most PUGs. To clear them would then require a dedicated team from a dedicated PvE guild to setup a build/time. This means people would stop going there to LFG/GLF to seek a team, making it another DoA-like ghost town in this game.

People here forgot that this game exists for the sake of providing entertainment, not to substantiate some people's e-peen. UW is probably the most popular of the elite areas right now, but as expected, ANet is going to destroy it once again.

Instead of making their games better and more popular, they tend to make them worse over time by listening to all the QQers in this forum. First, ANet destroyed DoA, and now UW is under attack. Which is why I dont think GW2 would last very long at this rate, so I am not buying it.

isildorbiafra

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

The Netherlands

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir View Post
We're not in the 8bit era any more. Every game in the last 20 years or so was made for money. That didn't stop the devs for making good content and balancing their games.
Let me simplify things for you.

GW content is great or else they would not have sold as many copies; and balancing was acceptable up to NF/ EotN. But this far down the line ANet would have nothing to gain by balancing and adding content. Keeping the player base happy is not smart from a business point of view. For now they have dumed down the game in the hope this will keep up sales.

By not fixing anything Anet is gambeling more people if not all will leave GW and move on to GW2 when that is released.

Let me put it like this. Would you buy a brand new car if your current one is in mint condition?

impulsion

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2008

Terra Noise [Zraw]

N/A

Before all the recent UW changes, you could do every quest with an assassin, ele, mesmer or monk. It was not profession-restricting, using 5-6sins was just the most efficient way.

Shadow form did not remove all elements of skill as some people seem to think. Doing uw fast takes skill, and non-"elite" people can still complete it - everybody wins except those who want the end chest to be worth something, but if you just want money go powertrade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vazze View Post
You have a point there. But that won't be different from the current situation. Who do we have in ToA right now?
Group A) SC teams doing FOW with SF and manly or Mobway (slowly getting replaced by dayway)
Group B) ppl lfg to do FoW or UW for fun or for hall ...mostly first timers.

The two groups never mix. Whether you buff or nerf SF.
These days ToA is populated with Group B) mainly because of Dhuum.

If sf is nerfed Group B will still be lfg in ToA except they start using a different type of tank or ... blasphemy!... they don't use tanks at all and will go with balanced.

If sf is nerfed Group A will do the next most profitable farm that fits their level of experience. If that is not another form of UW/FOW farm, they will disappear from ToA and will go someplace else. So what?
As outlined by Vazze perfectly, nerfing SF does not mean PUGs will form where so can easily find a group for any class/build. As many have said already, look at DoA.

SF is not some super-duper god mode the likes of which have never been seen before. 600 monk can tank anything SF can and more, OF or warrior tank etc. can all tank almost everything SF can. The difference is that with SF you only have to stop once every 30 seconds, where as with other builds you must constantly be refreshing enchantments, have bonders/healers etc. Surely pressing 1-2-3-4 every 10secs is not actually harder to do than press 1-2 every 30.

From what I can see these are the only 4 points people make against SF and IMO they are all null and void.

isildorbiafra

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

The Netherlands

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by impulsion View Post
IMO they are all null and void.
Like the contents of your skull?

Sarevok Thordin

Sarevok Thordin

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Scotland

W/N

My thoughts?

KILL IT. Make people learn to play again. If a group with only proph skills used to be able to take down the UW.....

Horace Slughorn

Horace Slughorn

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2008

Experientia Docet [OHX], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA], We Gat Dis [HRUU]

W/

I don't know what's more sad, that there is another shadow form thread, or that people post in it thinking they are making original contributions that havent been said a million times already.

Oh and ya'll will be just as bad/poor/unoriginal after they nerf SF, so don't think it will solve all your problems

Neo Nugget

Neo Nugget

Site Contributor

Join Date: Jan 2006

R/

It's probably best if this discussion continued in one of the many shadow form threads.

For example, http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...ht=shadow+form.

Closed.