Now does the 40/40 effect spirits casts? I don't think it does.

To me it makes more sense to take a shield and spear set to compensate for my superior chan rune.

Quote:

40/40 only affects spells, which means Painful Bond is likely the only spell to benefit. In that case, it may be better to just Shield+Spear for +60 HP, armor, and IAS for AP-MoP activation. Obvisiously i was wrong .. in that case it's good for painfull bond .. especially when tackling large mobs

AndroBubbles

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2009

Mo/

04 Feb 2010 at 08:07 - 91

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori View Post

I never said it was. My point was to address AndroBubble's post about a ritualist being able to place Painful Bond on enemies more often than a ranger. I wanted to point out that this comparison is pointless because ritualist being able to place Painful Bond on enemies is the result of a weapon effect and not the class itself.

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

To me it makes more sense to take a shield and spear set to compensate for my superior chan rune. There's this fun little thing I like to do called weapon swapping.

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

06 Feb 2010 at 06:16 - 92

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

My point is that when you crunch numbers, a ritualist with a 40/40 set will be able to place painful bond more frequently than a ranger with a 40/40 set because of energy management. If you want to take into account the fact that the damage the ritualist will pump out is superior, I don't see why we're bothering to compare a ranger to a ritualist primary in the first place. You give the ranger SS and he will still pump out painful bond just as often due to the lengthy recharge. He may not even need it with high Expertise.

I'm not comparing which is better Rit v Ranger as an SoS, I'm stating the fact that Painful Bond can be used as frequently a rit using the same weapon and/or spells.

It's obvious that Rit primary is better than Ranger primary for SoS in almost every situation but whether you can cast the hex more often isn't one of them.

Drbongalot

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Sep 2009

08 Feb 2010 at 23:30 - 93

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

There may be better classes for this but...

For me, my Rit primary is all about versatility. Most folks want Spirit Spam, and I can do that. But I can also spike, minion master and heal (and I can heal better than some monks I've seen). I do of course suffer from the problem that my ranger guildmate does. Versatile classes can't do things quite as well as the dedicated classes can, we're jacks-of-all-trades but masters of none. Still, I like being able to switch quickly to fill the various niches that a group requires when that particular class is in short supply. dun forget dagger rit

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

09 Feb 2010 at 04:45 - 94

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Other than looks/armor, why do people use primary ritualists nowdays?

I'm asking because as a mesmer primary, I also understand there's very little reason to have mesmer primary, because most of the mesmer skills received (multiple) nerfs since good old days (and even then mesmer wasn't that good in PvE). I love their attack animation, makes them look drunk which is perfect for my character.

Personally, there isn't really a reason to go rit unless you like the looks; spawning power is still useless (oh no my spirit died! oh wait the skill recharged) and most builds you can with other professions (the only exceptions are SS rits and minion bombers.)

khaderach19

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2007

Our Fun is you Dieing [fool]

09 Feb 2010 at 11:23 - 95

Its been stated before but runes are your primary reason. Its pve and there is no reason not to run Superior headpieces all the time.

Spawning power's passive benefits for spirits and minions have been reiterated enough but the line itself has a lot of utility.

Feast of Souls: since quick recharge SS is meta now. Its an emergency heal for 7x90hp to all party members.

explosive growth: conditional damage but ridiculous if used correctly. animate bone minions = 112 aoe damage every 5 seconds, with boon of creation its basically spammable.

Rupture soul: correctly placed with destruction will do a nice aoe spike, + blind.

Voodoo Rage

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

Sacramento, CA

Geezers

09 Feb 2010 at 16:11 - 96

Maintainable weapon spells too. I'm finding it pretty reasonable to keep Great Dwarf Weapon up on 3 characters during a battle.

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

09 Feb 2010 at 21:37 - 97

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

I love their attack animation, makes them look drunk which is perfect for my character.

Personally, there isn't really a reason to go rit unless you like the looks; spawning power is still useless (oh no my spirit died! oh wait the skill recharged) and most builds you can with other professions (the only exceptions are SS rits and minion bombers.) Spawning Power isnt useless at all. The increased health for spirits is really pretty good as spirits are also used for additional bodies for the enemy to target. The more time the enemy spends attacking a spirit, the less time it spends attacking you. The increase to weapon spells duration is the best reason to use spawning power, however, as there are many powerful weapon spells that have short durations and that benefit from it (weapon of warding, spirit light weapon, great dwarf weapon, resiliant weapon, warmongers weapon, etc.). Finally, there are several good skills in the spawning power line.

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

09 Feb 2010 at 23:46 - 98

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier View Post

Spawning Power isnt useless at all. The increased health for spirits is really pretty good as spirits are also used for additional bodies for the enemy to target.

Spirits have a pretty quick cooldown and can be precasted before a fight (along with summon spirits). I don't really see a difference because if my spirit dies I can just pop another one up. Spirits are fragile anyway unless you use armor of unfeeling, a little extra health isn't going to go a long way when a boss can OHK them with a AoE or PbAoE (note: I play a lot more HM than nm).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier View Post

The increase to weapon spells duration is the best reason to use spawning power, however, as there are many powerful weapon spells that have short durations and that benefit from it (weapon of warding, spirit light weapon, great dwarf weapon, resiliant weapon, warmongers weapon, etc.) True, however I don't find a few seconds especially important though with weapon skills (why would you use warmongers instead of GDW?). Prefrences are prefrences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Finally, there are several good skills in the spawning power line. Unless you are doing minion bombing or AwS casting, most of it is redundant/weak.

Until Anet decides to give rits a bit of love redesigning SP, they can only push up numbers for non-SP skills. Again, it's all a matter of prefrence.

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

10 Feb 2010 at 15:44 - 99

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard View Post

Running AoU means using a slot on the incredibly condensed SoS rit bar. Communing also has nothing else to offer other than Shadowsong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard View Post

True, however I don't find a few seconds especially important though with weapon skills (why would you use warmongers instead of GDW?). Prefrences are prefrences. The extra few do matter on players instead of heroes. With high spawning it is not too difficult to keep 4 GDW on your team. Yes I've done it and its awesome.

Unless you are doing minion bombing or AwS casting, most of it is redundant/weak.

Quote: If Anguish, being just a normal skill, can be equal in damage to an overpowered elite like SoS then Anguish is actually very good. But it only makes sense to bring Anguish with a hex like Painful Bond.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Until Anet decides to give rits a bit of love redesigning SP, they can only push up numbers for non-SP skills. Again, it's all a matter of prefrence. Spawning on a hero doesn't need to exceed 6 and with a rune, 7. That's enough for a bit of extra life and extra seconds. You are right that SP skills are near worthless. It's not SP thats a real problem anymore, it's the incredibly worthless skills.

Arrogant Bastard

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2009

Your mom's house

10 Feb 2010 at 23:41 - 100

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Running AoU means using a slot on the incredibly condensed SoS rit bar. Communing also has nothing else to offer other than Shadowsong. Anguish, Earthbind, AoU, Shadowsong, and Pain are acceptable options.

That's roughly the same amount of useful skills in Channeling (SoS, Bloodsong, Splinter, Siphon, Painful Bond).

Without AoU, spirits are way too squishy.

What build are you suggesting without using Communing?

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

11 Feb 2010 at 00:50 - 101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

Anguish, Earthbind, AoU, Shadowsong, and Pain are acceptable options.

That's roughly the same amount of useful skills in Channeling (SoS, Bloodsong, Splinter, Siphon, Painful Bond).

Without AoU, spirits are way too squishy.

What build are you suggesting without using Communing? For a hero - restoration spec.

For human - 13 spawning for Agony/Splinter, GDW. You can easily go smite for SoH, Smite hex or condition and some other crap. Also with 13 spawning, you can keep up GDW on 4 players assuming you're paying attention and using SS wisely.

I don't like Anguish because its conditional, not particularly long lasting compared to other spirits, and at best, the damage equals a SoS spirit.

Earthbind is good for certain builds. Pain is inferior to shadowsong.

So really the only thing you can be certain that Communing is worth is Shadowsong and in some instances AoU. AoU on a hero is more acceptable because heroes have no sense of placement and no PvE skills.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

11 Feb 2010 at 05:27 - 102

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori View Post

I don't like Anguish because its conditional, not particularly long lasting compared to other spirits, and at best, the damage equals a SoS spirit.

AoU on a hero is more acceptable because heroes have no sense of placement and no PvE skills. AoU makes sense for a human rit too because spirits are meant to form a protective wall for your casters, not the other way round. With AoU spirits tank very well in HM.

Perfected Shadow

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

Zul'Aman

Umes Uranger U[bot]

11 Feb 2010 at 09:10 - 103

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

AoU makes sense for a human rit too because spirits are meant to form a protective wall for your casters, not the other way round. Not when I play (mostly with pugs). I use summon spirits very often to avoid as much damage to the spirits as possible. That way the pugs become my meatshields on which I use lolVengeance every 15 or 30 seconds.

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

12 Feb 2010 at 00:43 - 104

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

If Anguish, being just a normal skill, can be equal in damage to an overpowered elite like SoS then Anguish is actually very good. But it only makes sense to bring Anguish with a hex like Painful Bond.

It's hardly and equal. It's an equal for one spirit but has so many other drawbacks not to mention its in a totally different line. Anguish with Painful Hex is synergy but it doesn't mean its always going to attack the monster or the monster is not going to last long. Either way you'll need lots of hexes elsewhere because even with a 20/20 painful bond recharge is too slow to cater to anguish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

AoU makes sense for a human rit too because spirits are meant to form a protective wall for your casters, not the other way round. With AoU spirits tank very well in HM. That's what MMs are for and most teams have one already. With the minion wall there is no need for SoS to play a second role. Bloodsong and SoS are fast enough to recast after they go down and they are high level. And with decent spawning, they will last long enough. Bloodsong and Vampirism already self healing anyway. So its essentially AoU for crappy communing spirits.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

12 Feb 2010 at 02:58 - 105

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori View Post

Since Painful Bond is an AoE hex with a 12s recharge that is usually not a problem. Bringing other hexes from your team is also not difficult.

Quote: That's what MMs are for and most teams have one already. With the minion wall there is no need for SoS to play a second role. When it comes to minions, the more the merrier. Minions are overpowered in PvE right now, not only do they deal good damage, they also provide good defense at the same time so minion skills serve a dual purpose. Just because you have a MM does not imply that SoS becomes useless. The best 3-heroes team HM builds make use of both, unless you are playing the SoS rit of course.

Quote:

Bloodsong and SoS are fast enough to recast after they go down and they are high level. And with decent spawning, they will last long enough. Bloodsong and Vampirism already self healing anyway. So its essentially AoU for crappy communing spirits. Two spirits like Bloodsong and vampirism dont make an effective wall. Also monsters dont always target spirits. For one, spirits do not soak up hexes for you, necro minions do. Spirits also do not wall up their targets as well as necro minions do since they are immobile and ranged. This means, in general, they have a lower chance of being targeted than necro minions.

Think of them as ranged minions like fiends, with the help of the necro minion wall, they can attack more effectively and your casters now have 2 layers of wall protecting them in the toughest HM areas. This is also what makes spiritway very effective for HM.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Hero_Spiritway

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

12 Feb 2010 at 18:57 - 106

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

When it comes to minions, the more the merrier. Minions are overpowered in PvE right now, not only do they deal good damage, they also provide good defense at the same time so minion skills serve a dual purpose. Just because you have a MM does not imply that SoS becomes useless. The best 3-heroes team HM builds make use of both, unless you are playing the SoS rit of course.

You didn't see my post. I said that by secondary role, they don't need to tank not that they shouldn't be in a team. They don't need to do something that another member of the team can easily do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

Two spirits like Bloodsong and vampirism dont make an effective wall. Also monsters dont always target spirits. For one, spirits do not soak up hexes for you, necro minions do. Spirits also do not wall up their targets as well as necro minions do since they are immobile and ranged. This means, in general, they have a lower chance of being targeted than necro minions. When I wrote about longetivity I did not mean that spirits should function as a wall purpose. They only have more hp only to last longer in case a monster does get through the minion wall. You want the spirits to be a wall, but I don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Think of them as ranged minions like fiends, with the help of the necro minion wall, they can attack more effectively and your casters now have 2 layers of wall protecting them in the toughest HM areas. This is also what makes spiritway very effective for HM. If thats the case then why do you suggest them working as walls? Why make them into something that aren't as good at. That's my beef with AoU, it tries to turn spirits into something that isn't necessary and wastes a slot, not to mention its in a mediocre line. They don't need to function as a second line for your casters as the monsters should already be dead. If not its your offense that's the problem, not the defense.

AndroBubbles

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2009

Mo/

14 Feb 2010 at 21:05 - 107

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

You want the spirits to be a wall, but I don't. Agreed. I do not want my spirits functioning as a wall when they can pump out 100+ damage per second when used properly with painful bond.

Lord Chris Bravo

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2007

Places o.O

Rt/

14 Feb 2010 at 22:16 - 108

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

Agreed. I do not want my spirits functioning as a wall when they can pump out 100+ damage per second when used properly with painful bond. I agree with the 100+ damage per second but in saying that wouldn't you want protection as well?

Whenever i use an SoS build i like to use them as a wall plus damage lol .... especially in Hard Mode

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

14 Feb 2010 at 23:00 - 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Chris Bravo

I agree with the 100+ damage per second but in saying that wouldn't you want protection as well?

Whenever i use an SoS build i like to use them as a wall plus damage lol .... especially in Hard Mode That should be the job of your minion wall. If your minions are dying that fast, then I don't think the spirits will be lasting much longer.

They do make a nice little wall for emergencies and can do a ok tanking, but that isn't the spirit's purpose. Spawning power is to increase durability, not make them into walls.

Lord Chris Bravo

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2007

Places o.O

Rt/

15 Feb 2010 at 00:05 - 110

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

That should be the job of your minion wall. If your minions are dying that fast, then I don't think the spirits will be lasting much longer.

They do make a nice little wall for emergencies and can do a ok tanking, but that isn't the spirit's purpose. Spawning power is to increase durability, not make them into walls. Agreed i don't think i put it correctly .. what i meant to say is that it's usefull as a back-up as you so rightly stated.

When i use to do vanquishing without Discord, my spirits acted as tank very sucessfully when tackling small mobs that we were around all i had to was spam summon spirits whenever it recharged lol but i was used to my build so it was very easy to know where to succesfully place my spirits without them getting owned by the monsters.

I used shadowsong .. very useful when there is melee around because BAM ... blind them they can do jack haha

What do you think spirits purposes are?

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

15 Feb 2010 at 00:15 - 111

I found spirits more useful as an AoE attracter than a wall. It's quite usefull since I can just teleport them around and prevent the rest of my team from getting pummeled by AoE.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

15 Feb 2010 at 00:56 - 112

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori View Post

I meant that they can be used as a secondary wall. If you say spirit tanking isn't necessary because you already have necro minions then you are making an assumption that necro minions will always be there to wall monsters up for you.

Necro minions, although good, does not always suvive high damage aoe attacks for long and they rely on fresh corpses. Furthermore, minion bombers use certain skills to detonate their minions so they tend to die faster.

AoU is not a wasted slot as you seem to imply because monsters do attack spirits and spirits with AoU tend to last longer than spirits without. No matter what you think their purpose is suppose to be, spirits are still extremely durable with the right build without sacrificing damage. Why go for damage only when I can get both?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

That should be the job of your minion wall. If your minions are dying that fast, then I don't think the spirits will be lasting much longer. Spirits can last a lot longer than minions because of SP, AoU, and summon spirits.

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

17 Feb 2010 at 17:08 - 113

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

Originally Posted by Daesu

Spirits can last a lot longer than minions because of SP, AoU, and summon spirits. I'm referring to hero rits but if you are talking about human rits, then there is even a less of a reason to use AoU because of summon spirits. Besides you're going to have to fit AoU into a cramped bar where certain spells such as splinter or GDW are more important

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

17 Feb 2010 at 21:04 - 114

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori View Post

I'm not interested in using a slot for something I don't need to. AoU is still good at low communing, but its the slot that I'm reluctant to give up.

Even if the minions die, its not as if the spirits will keel over without AoU. Besides summoning Bloodsong/SoS isn't difficult or time costly. There are not many skills worth bringing in the channeling line to replace AoU. There is SoS, Splinter, BloodSong, Painful Bond, Spirit Siphon, I don't find AR to be effective in HM. That leaves 3 slots for a secondary attribute. If you are a human rit, you can easily fill them up with PvE skills, but if you are a hero rit then most SoS build would use skills from another attribute line, most typically communing for spirit spammers.

Anyway, take at look at this to illustrate what I am talking about:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Rt/a...Channeling_Rit

SoulKEEPER

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Apr 2005

Lincoln, NE

Murder Death Kill

Rt/

18 Feb 2010 at 05:42 - 115

Why Rit pri.. because the different kinds of builds you can play. My spike builds in AB drove the Kuz nuts. And then maybe its because the rit is so much fun to play!

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

18 Feb 2010 at 12:05 - 116

Armour of Unfeeling is quite necessary in areas like UW, where you may be asked to tank one side of Four Horsemen quest; although, I've not tested it with anything other than a Ritualist, I think the lack of extra health/armour will affect the outcome.

And yes, there's no real argument about it- spirits ARE minions. Immobile minions, unless you have Summon Spirits. They make a wall to protect the team and absorb damage. You have about 5-6 spirits on your bar, and 11 minions on your MM/MB; and you will overpower anything in your way.

Ancestor's Rage is pretty terrible in HM, don't use it. Nor Spirit Rift or anything that deals "lightning" damage.

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

18 Feb 2010 at 15:19 - 117

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

There are not many skills worth bringing in the channeling line to replace AoU. There is SoS, Splinter, BloodSong, Painful Bond, Spirit Siphon, I don't find AR to be effective in HM. That leaves 3 slots for a secondary attribute. If you are a human rit, you can easily fill them up with PvE skills, but if you are a hero rit then most SoS build would use skills from another attribute line, most typically communing for spirit spammers.

Anyway, take at look at this to illustrate what I am talking about:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Rt/a...Channeling_Rit