Preliminary Skill Update Notes: Feb 19

So, what, all those farms you listed can only be done with SF? No one solo-farmed before SF? Seems to me that nearly 2 years of SF has just gone and spoiled you to how easy solo farming should be. Hitting those three keys on recharge and being free to solo nearly every area in the game is not exactly rocket science, and there is something to be said for making solo-farming require at least a modicum of skill again.

Er, because SF does everything it does, and more? Before there was SF, though, OF tanks were meta, and once SF is gone it's a foregone conclusion that they'd come back. Pre-emptive strike ftw.

Perhaps you didn't read but it was said there will be others of the overpowered skills that will be hit also not just SF and 600 smite. Prepare for OF tanks to feel the pain as well. )

Everyone here is a dog barking up a tree (not the wrong tree), but the tree is a Giant Sequoia and at the top is ANet and the TK.

One of the main problems with the TK people chosen, is that they are all mostly long time players and in some cases, players with insides, or friends of friends. Sure they have all played this game for a long time and know the inner workings, but that is one of the flaws. They have groups, Guilds and Alliances, they have lots of in game wealth, they have all skills unlocked, they have all the campaigns, heroes and access to many things that others (most average players) do not have.

They can't step back and see the game from the perspective of new players, semi-active players or even other players from other games. I can only imagine how difficult this game is for new players who bought Guild Wars Platinum. Working through EOTN with mainly only Prophecies skills and game progression? They cant run most builds people take for granted. They won't be doing speed clears for sure. How about finding some people who don't have everything in this game already, with a little different perspective to help on TK.

I only see two ways the TK player testing can work, server wise. They have their own server, build and copies of characters (or pre-mades), or they have the same server as us, just with an advanced build, using their own characters. In the latter case, I can only see lots of chances at abuse and gain (for the TK) by exploiting skill changes before reporting bugs and working out builds weeks before others get a chance.

In the former case, I see no reason why a select TK needs to be there. If the testing is being done on a separate sever with separate characters (or copies), there is absolutely no reason why ANet can not go all the way like other MMOs and make a test server that we can all log into and test changes. Not only would they get more feedback, they would get more testing done and a wider variety of feedback and have it all done faster.

That would also mean a lot more input to sift through, and a lot of that would be from people who cannot be trusted, either because they're idiots or because they have an ulterior motive (I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the stuff in this update may be the result of biases people didn't even realize they had; I mean, really, buffing Warriors and Ritualists when neither needs it at all and classes like Rangers and Mesmers have needed buffs for years).

The more testers you have, the less chance there is of anomalies, because the majority of the player base is average.

With the small TK base we have, who are mostly, as I stated, long term players with ties to select guilds, alliances, and even Anet staff, there is much more chance of issues and ulterior motives, whether it is to protect in-game wealth, gold color on a cape, or their favorite class.

Just look at the statements most have made in regards to mesmers.

Then with farming skills, many acknowledged TK testers are very vocally anti-SF and farming. How is that fair to a large player base that enjoys farming and has been allowed to do so freely for the better part of 5 years? There are points were it is too much, I agree, but the best fixes for the speedclears is not nerfing skills. There are lockout timers, consumables can be nerfed, rewards can be nerfed, and they could easily add known counter skills to a few key monsters to stop it all. Dungeons could easily have a kill counter added to require complete playing, or even make door keys random monster drops, which would fix 99% of the issues without a single skill, playstyle or build being nerfed.

If you look at current MMOs, they have gone away from the marathon dungeons to smaller (4-5-6 man) and shorter (1 hour) high end areas, because people can't get huge groups together Probably shouldn't mention that most MMOs have also gone to better grouping systems as well as adding in the ability to bring new players into an instance when others drop out.

Probably not. It -does- take a long time to do everything, and I somehow doubt that all these are players who've been playing from Day one.

Even so, you don't think they'd hand everything necessary over to them on the test server?

Also, the fundamental principles of GW are that wealth is reletive. Skins do nothing for your performance, and someone with the very basic equipment can be just as good as a veteran. That's changed somewhat, as wealth has more dominion over things like cons, but the basics are there.

Hey, it's a good business deal on the part of Anet. They get Platinum, eventually get frustrated that they don't have all the skills others do, and then buy the other campaigns. It's not them being bias, it's them making money :P I can assure you that if I could have all the skills and professions of Factions without buying it, I certainly wouldn't buy factions.

Even disregarding that, there is the noob factor. We were all noobs at once, but you don't elect a noob to have a say in what GW is about, and the direction it should take. Also, I highly doubt that the TK does anything more then test out the skills Anet sends at them for their feedback on possible bugs, synergy issues, ect. They certainly don't have a say in the final word.

It's the same game, definitely. Obviously the versions of the intended skills to change are different, and probably with the exception that everyone on the test krewe can go to any outpost, have all skills, ect.

It certainly doesn't take a huge abundance of wealth to accomplish that. Just time.

They don't do that for various reasons. more work sifting through people's feedback who have no clue what they're talking about mostly, I'm sure. I don't know how much of Anet's resources that would take to set up either. Not to mention that if we all could see what the skill balancers are working on, we'd all know how slow they work :P

You have to keep in mind that Anet doesn't have much of a cash flow coming in anymore. Granted just adding a skill or two to a couple mobs would be a "cheap" fix, adding functionality to allow for new players to be brought in mid-instance would probably be a nasty mess of code to untangle before they could even consider getting that to work. And I doubt they have the man-power devoted to GW1 for that.

I wouldn't be surprised, however, to see improvements for GW2 when it comes to grouping and I'm hoping they've learned some hard lessons from GW1 about skill balancing.

I got an idea.... ANet should list a few things for change, all of the GW community get to vote on it in game, and the thing getting the most votes should be implemented. The idea that some of the GW elite, or snobs as I see them, know better what changes in game enhance the game experience for us regular folk is just silly.

TK should be just doing the testing and no influence on what changes are made. By soliciting advice or opinions of the TK, ANet is NOT getting an accurate pulse of the entire GW community.

I would take exchange skill balance changes over the past two years for a fixed XTH system. Of course I too can be seen as biased as I have multiple accounts, but IMO spending the resources to fix XTH would have been a far better allocation of the limited resources ANet has to work with.

You mean PvE skill that everyone could spam just as well as mesmers (if not better) because the skill wasn't linked to primary attribute like some other (paragon one for instance)? A skill with 1/4 cast time which made mesmer primary attribute and profession specialty useless?

Yea, moment of superiority.

Come on Arkantos, you can do better.

Oh I see. They didn't want to buff mesmer because it would become insanely overpowered. Discussion with you is pointless, you're completely out of touch with reality.

You do realize they didnt get buffed BECAUSE NO TEST KREWE MEMBER PLAYS MESMER in PvE? It's that simple.

Aha, yea. You can do better skill balancing in 1 afternoon. If they employed Upier for 8 hours and told him that is the deadline, he would come up with a better balance than entire Test Krewe and ANet gw1 staff in 6 months.

As I said, you're out of touch with reality.

Come on Arkantos, it's not like you care if mesmers get buffed in year 2020. You will be playing with your Rt and Necro heroes. Sure, YOU can wait. We MESMERS can't.

So let's switch mesmers with some OP class and then that other class can exercise eternal patience.



So last several years they worked on making mesmers good, and the result is they are still crap as always and nothing changed (as a matter of fact, since beginning of GW mesmers got countless nerfs, if anything they are much worse overall).

Arkantos, you're really out of touch with reality. Try working on a project in real life for several years without results, and see what your investors will think of that. But here in GW, you can work several years on something without results, and people will still say it's all fine.

No, please, not again.

This "solution" will influence people who DON'T play just for farming - think of the UW and the anti-farm measures that made it bloody hard to complete for regular groups, while farming still runs rampant - while also requiring much more effort than nerfing a blatantly abusable combination.

I don't see how turning the game upside down just to leave farming skills untouched is fair toward those who don't farm night and day.

Ah, hilarious. Conspiracy!

You know, TEST Krewe just... test proposed changes?

The decision of which skill/combination/profession to work on comes from ANet. TK test solutions and suggest eventual changes. They don't go out and pick any random skill they want buffed or nerfed out of the blue.

Talk about being out of touch with reality...

Excuse me? Please go back and reread my post. I was talking about farms using OF, not SF. I have never played a sin and have never used SF at any time for anything, so I don't think it has spoiled me. I haven't even been playing for two full years yet. I farm with my earth ele, and I don't think you're going to be able to point me to an ele build for doing those farms that doesn't require OF, so I will likely be forced to cross them off my list (depending on the exact changes that are made). There is nothing wrong with any of the farming I've been doing, and I resent being turned into collateral damage of somebody's vendetta against UWSC.

And where did I imply that no one solo farmed before SF (or OF or any other skill)? I spoke of some very specific farms, not solo farming in general. I have other solo farms that use different builds, none of which require OF or any other skill on the farmaggedon hit list. But don't try to tell me I should be content with just doing those and be happy with losing access to farms that give me drops the others do not.

So what? Was anyone complaining about speed clears when OF tanks were meta? Is it even possible to do a 10-minute (or even 30-minute) UW clear with an OF tank? If not, then who gives a fig if OF tanks come back? Why launch a preemptive strike against a non threat, taking out perfectly legitimate farms at the same time?

I dont think he was suggesting having noobs on the test krewe. I think he was suggesting putting a mix of both hard-core and casual, experienced players on the TK.

uh... do you know that for sure? that is a pretty bold statement to make unless you actually know what professions they play.

Speak for yourself. Im patient enough to wait around for a mesmer update in the future rather than complaining about how one wasnt done in the february update.

@ Josip: I feel as though you do not enjoy the mesmer style of gameplay, one that is inherently going to be weaker at PvE than other professions because of the nature of disruption. Unless Anet does something to reward disruption w/ damage, I feel as though there is no way to make mesmers more efficient in PvE without changing them into a copy of a class we already have. May I suggest you choose another profession to play?

These so called "elite" players you speak of that want SF nerfed for their own selfish reasons, that seems like someone that is just grabbing at straws really.

These players are elite because they have been around for a long time, gone through multiple meta changes, AND most importantly understand the fundamentals of guildwars. Many new players, did ursan, then switched to SF. Which allowed them to ignore the majority of the game and understand effective combonations of offense and defense, watching the field and other such things you learn from team play. What will happen, people will either adapt, or quit. That simple, you either start trying new stuff, figuring out how to play or you just quit because its to hard.

Just for lols , check Regina Buenaobra , guru profile "Me/" . It doesnt matter if its true but at least is a good joke.

Change it to "no-one plays mesmer in pve" and it's not far from the truth.

First off Arkantos, thank you for the reply.

Then from what the notes released so far of this update, it's pretty much safe to assume that either:

1) the update will NOT be coming out bi-monthly as they originally planned/promised/stated, but that every update from now on will take just as long (6 months) or even longer. Because hey, if reworking 4 attribute lines and a few other skills took this long, then the mesmer update (which i can assume from your statement will be looked at eventually) would probably take ages right?

2) they will NEVER look at the mesmer ever again, simply because of the massive amount of work it would take. What i don't understand with this point is, there are already so many threads and ideas floating around just on guru, on viable ways to buff the mesmer that doesn't (or shouldn't) require nearly as much time as you guys think.

Man, the mesmer suggestions have already been stated many, many, many, many, many MANY times:

-Shorten the recharge on their useful skills
-Un-nerf VOR
-Un-nerf COP
-give the class that's supposed to be about energy control some actual energy management
-among many other suggestions which i'm sure you guys must be aware of

And that's using common sense. Honestly, pretty much any of these suggestions would be enough to make most of us mesmer whiners happy. It's not rocket science and should not take nearly as much effort as you guys make think.

Quoted for truth.

VoR split and CoP revert are reasonable, however, asking for a class that YOU chose to play be overhauled because you don't like how it works in pve is pretty asinine.

Or they could just split it and rework the PvE-version only, since the nerf was needed because of a strictly PvP issue.

Splits are for nerf required by one format that would also break it in the other, and this is the case with VoR, which I think is hardly used anymore as it used to.

If anything, mildly toning it down (a-la-SoS, which is being slightly altered without facing a "nerf") could do.

The only reason why I do play mesmer is because I enjoy mesmer style of gameplay. What I dont enjoy is when people come and say that mesmer should suck, that mesmer buff should compete with end of the world in which comes later, and that 'nothing can be done'.

There is no such thing as inherently weaker. It's a matter of skill balance.

In PvP, enemies have X energy pool. In PvE, enemies have 3X. What does that mean? That energy drain skills should for start drain at least 3X as much energy in PvE. It doesnt mean it would make skills good, I don't know, but I'm trying to show you.


I'll give you more examples:

Blackout - blackouts PvE foe for 50 seconds. Is this inherently weaker? No, the skill has same function, only it is buffed. This is extreme example of course, and I'm trying to show that Mesmer class IS NOT inherently weaker, it's a matter of skill balance.

Another example: Diversion. Make it actually WORK on foes in PvE. Perhaps some of you don't know, but this skill doesn't work on some bosses etc... great way to artificially nerf mesmer in PvE instead of buff.

Shame - another nice example of mesmer shutdown skill... and completely useless in PvE because of 30seconds recharge (im excluding AP here on purpose). Give this skill 10 seconds recharge and you'll see how it is not inherently weaker.

Backfire - recharge and energy cost just dont fit PvE. Now, imagine this skill: recharge 5 seconds, dmg 100, cost 5 energy, duration 10. Inherently weaker? No, it's just a matter of skill balance. In PvE foes die fast, there are no pressure battles there. Skill balance needs to reflect on that. Seen Asuran Scan? Now imagine if that skill had 30sec recharge. Exactly.

Shared Burden - "target foe and nearby foes move 20% slower for each foe affected by this skill; max 90% speed reduction". There you go, a skill that isn't crap. Cast Shared Burden on a mobbed group, and another party member can nuke away.



Inherently weaker is another phrase for lack of creativity and will to do proper balance.


ps: Above are just examples so don't come with "see what you did, made this skill OP". Don't care.

Im speaking for other giants who are not satisfied with little things, or with lack of fairness. You want to wait 20 years, sure go ahead. You satisfied with how things are, no problem. I don't write my posts for lethargic apathetic people.


Which proves my point. Even community manager needs to put Me in profile to show how "ANet is with mesmers, dont fear that you're neglected". Heck even community manager knows mesmers are crap.

Besides, I don't know much about Regina, but come on, what are you saying, Gaile knew how rangers work and was skilled enough to be able to give feedback regarding skill update? A community manager is feel-good person not know-how person.

You're completely missing the point. What I'm trying to say is there was a point when mesmers could completely roll elite areas. Yeah, other classes could do it too, but so could mesmers, which is what you want.

Apparently your reading comprehension level is quite low. If you try and balance something quickly, you're either going to make them completely overpowered or make them still suck because of the lack of thought and testing put into it. And how exactly do you know that no test krewe member plays mesmer? Do you know every single player in the test krewe? Do you stalk them on the internet to find out what they do? Yeah, thought so. If you want to have a discussion, don't pull arguments out of your ass.

If balancing is so easy, then take an afternoon to rework the mesmer class making it better in PvE without breaking it. I'll post it on the test krewe forums for the devs to see. No offense to upier, but if you think that he can balance the game better than ANet/about 200 players, then you're pretty dumb. Not trying to be rude, but I just can't think of any other way to put it.

And yeah, sure. Make warriors as viable as mesmers are now, I'll still continue to steamroll through PvE while alt tabbed into guru.

ANet have been trying to make mesmers good in PvE for the last several years? Who said that? Again, it seems that you have poor reading comprehension. It's obvious that ANet hasn't really given a shit about mesmers in PvE, unless you're completely oblivious.

If I remember correctly, Regina has a page on wiki talking about how ANet are trying to make mesmers better for PvE. Who's to say ANet hasn't been looking at mesmers? Also, once the test krewe is settled in I'm sure the updates will take much less time. Remember, this is the first time ANet's done something like this, so it's obviously going to (further) push back the balance. Sure, they took they're time, but I'd rather wait a few months where ANet is getting direct feedback from players and much more testing rather than a few weeks of ANet choosing skills and throwing shit at a dart board.

Shortening recharges is really more of a bandaid fix that takes no thought at all. Mesmer skills don't need shorter recharges, they need to be reworked for PvE. Mesmers can do damage, shut down, and interrupt. 2 out of those 3 are useless in PvE. Cutting the recharge on skills is still going to leave the majority of mesmer skills useless. Reverting VoR would be good, but CoP was nerfed in PvE for a reason. And mesmer energy management is fine unless you press 1257261836589 in the matter of 10 seconds.

So really, what do you want? Bandaid fixes like shortening recharges so the only decent mesmer skills are more spammable while the rest are still bad, or ANet actually messing around with all their skills so mesmers as a profession can be better?

Here's why I object to Anet taking their time with balancing: because even when they spend a lot of time on it, the end result is still imbalanced.

It would be except the classes with the highest damage output got overhauled to be, get this... even better. Even if the changes end up being as everyone predicts as mediocre and people continue to not use hammers or tactics or blood or rits.

The fact of the matter is these classes didn't need the update, those six months could have been better spent on something that really is "unbalanced". Nobody is denying it that mesmers have the raw end of the stick, they are just saying "it isn't worth Anets time because 'nobody' plays mesmers".

Truth of the matter is I don't play a mesmer, I'd love to, I have an empty character slot just waiting for the day they actually make them worth a damn in PvE. I can see a load of potential for mesmers if Anet would just devote the same amount of time to them as they do warriors, rits and necros.

They could just remove Dervishes from the game since they are useless, make Mesmers PvP-Only, and make that all Paragons begin the game with Imbagon build(and cannot change it) , including max bonuses from Allegiance titles.

No more underpowered professions(mostly) after that.

Oshit, this guy just fixed the game....

While u at it Failnet nerf the 55monk.........I can't wait for Gw2 no more buildwars.

PS: Question for Failnet, If i get my own group of people who hate 55monk build and started to QQ all day, will you nerf it also?

Regina also said a lot of things that are completely vague, gives no definite information, and are generally full of excuses for whenever something is late/not done/etc. Would you still faithfully believe in everything she says? If they had been looking at mesmers, then why didn't they say anything in the update notes? As i've said, they gave no explanation or any hint that mesmers will even be considered for future updates.

EDIT: okay I found her entry. Boy she was quick to archive that. In any case, my point still stands as there has been no word from them since then.

This sounds extremely familiar doesn't it? And how are some of these changes not darboartted? I mean look at some of the ritualist changes. Many of them are still weak and still useles. Look at the blood line. Barbed signet? LMAO. Seriously do necros really need more support?

And it would make many of us happy. Like Josip said, it's all a matter of balance with respect to the format that you play. I suggest reading his post again.

Come now don't play dumb. I'm sure you must be aware as anyone else that CoP could easily be changed to be a mesmer skill only. And mesmer energy management is very weak due to the never ending pvp nerfs. I mean there's a reason why monks go /E for GoLE instead of /Me for whatever few viable e-management skills that they do have left (hint: none). Heck, even mesmers need other secondaries for e-management instead of their own.

I want some acknowledgment from the LT/TK that mesmers are crap and are even considered in their minds and that they will be looked at. I want them to say something instead of being silent and hoping that we'd be stupid enough to not notice when mesmers got neglected again.

You mean the issue whereby my buddies and I would see a war, even better a sin or any other melee caster wannabe, and throw VoR>Empathy>Backfire>Wastrels and then just tickle em with whatever else we felt would hasten their very rapid end? Surely not, because that sort of thing only happens in the movies.

After all, whose fault is it if they can neither count nor bring themselves to stop bashing at you like a moron with a stick? Where PvE is concerned, IMO it's no more OP than anything else out there, as it requires skill use to trigger, and is not a hair-trigger bullshit hex like SS is in that way.

I'm kool 'n' the gang with the PvP reasons and all that jazz.

Now your turn; TK, Arkantos, (You still haven't answered me ) tell me. What good and I say good reason is there to keep VoR in it's current PvE state?

Don't tell me, lemme guess: Destroying the enemy by turning their use of skills against them with high damage armor-ignoring hexes is not part of what Mesmers are about...Err, wait a second, anyone else see something wrong in that statement?

One other point I've made before, and would like to reaffirm;

Being vocal, outspoken and staunch in defense of one's class of choice is not whining. Whining is whining. Whiner's are always rage-quitters, and as far as I can see, none of us so-called whiners are about to rage quit any time soon. Randoms don't count in that analogy, btw.. :P

The funny thing is instead of nerfing SF or Obs Flesh, if they just made it so EVERY profession could use it, there would be a lot less griping. I know a lot of people whined about Ursan (and many now wish they would bring it back) but at least ANYONE could run it. Those who QQ'ed about having to have a certain Norn level to get into groups just need to lump it because you still need R5 or better in other EOTN ranks to be able to run UW with a SF Sin. I can tell you that the more class specific the skill set required, the less inclusive the game gets and the more players stop playing and start crying about how they are left out. ANET's last few moves to fix this have just put them farther from the mark.

The test krewe is meant to give feedback and test updates. After this skill update, they're going to have to work on something else. What else exactly is there to work on for PvE? Mesmers are going to get updated.

And thank you for proving my point. They didn't put too much time and thought into some aspects of this update (blood magic, ritualists), and the updates aren't that great. Would you like updates like this, or would you like updates that take longer, but are better?

Sorry, but that statement was pretty dumb. When monks go /e for energy management, they don't have to put any attribute points into it. When they go /me, they do. I think it's pretty obvious that a 3 attribute line monk is going to choose /e rather than /me.

If ANet is buffing underpowered professions/attribute lines in PvE, I think it's pretty safe to assume that the live team is going to address mesmers in the near future.

There is no good reason. I completely agree that VoR should be reverted for PvE.

"Buildwars (or Build Wars) is a common mocking term, referring to the game (paticularly PvP) being in a state in which the builds are more important than skill or tactics."
You're against 'Build Wars' but you're in favor of OP farming builds that lessen the importance of skill and tactics?

They already did. And, if you don't notice the huge RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing difference between the current effectiveness of SF/600 and 55, you're some sort of derogatory term that hasn't been invented yet.

Clever.

No.

Mesmers arnt crap. They can still steamroll through PvE w/out using one of those stupid AP/norn builds. Sure they arnt as fast in PvE as the other professions but they arnt crap either.

If they have indeed found the solution to the "invincible farming builds" does that mean we can throw dhuum out of the UW now too?

^ now we play the waiting game! (tho it would be nice to get confirmation )

And on that note, im guessing that the mes updates are prob in the pipelines/been theorized about as we speak, but i feel they would need more work to actually keep them from been broken YET still mesmery and decent in pve....with anet not wanting to split every skill they need to balance some of it with pvp in mind as well!..

We know that the mes changes have always been a problem one way or the other affecting pve or pvp adversely.

They look at least moderately interesting. I know I'll have more than one build to run on my rit after this update.
Uh, yes, that's what pretty much everyone has been asking for: to turn blood into a support-based attribute and remove the majority of the vampiric-style damage since it's so bad as pure damage, and so unnecessary as healing.

Aaaand then the abuse would have just been for mesmer primaries...how is that a good thing? The ability to spike a huge mob for 500-800 armor-ignoring damage is ridiculous, even if it is limited to mesmers only.

Monks go /E because it's more useful to have an on-demand energy management skill than it is for a monk to add additional utility or support with his energy management skills (also, as the poster before me said, it requires no att points). That's exactly what mesmer energy management is good for: giving you energy while doing something else useful, be it ench removal, e-denial, hex removal, interruption, shutting down melee, etc. The issue is that the first four of those are largely irrelevant in PvE, which means that skills that do those functions in addition to providing energy are going to be inferior to strictly e-management skills most of the time, and in all cases they take more thought to use. The issue isn't the skills per se, it's the fact that PLeaking an enemy in HM is a) difficult, and b) largely unnecessary if you have an imbagon reducing damage on everyone by 90%.

AP is a whole 'nother ball game. No profession has energy management capable of keeping up with that, let alone the skill recharging.

You mean updates that take even longer than 6 months? Really, there's a point to every project where after spending a certain amount of time on it you really can't do much to improve it any further, never mind the unrealistic time frame that the LT takes just to get it out the door.

Exactly. This goes back to my original point about their inferior, third rate e-management. Even as a primary mesmer, why wouldn't you go for GoLE instead of the weak and underpowered inspiration line?

I once heard from a wise and benevolent man that a good management of priorities leads to successful projects, satisfied customers, and good relations.

And how is that a mesmer build? How does that allow the mesmer to do what it was designed to do, and also making a significant contribution to their team? If you want an AP caller, a necro can do better.

I'll assume you're right about the demand for blood changes, but I'm pretty sure that those who demand said changes are vastly outnumbered by those who demand mesmer changes, given the amount of topics about the mesmer vs. blood magic (or necros in general).

And yet that is the only "super build" that a mesmer has left, and it can be easily outdone by a necro.

Finally sf is nerfed! Boooyaa!!!

side note: my friend got indominable survivor on her mesmer the oldskool way.

i think many people forget how easy guildwars became when EoTN was introduced. It, in itself, pretty much broke PVE. Full Ursan groups thumping DoA in under an hour, UW speed runs. etc.etc.

there were 3 things that fully allowed the speed clear builds that are available today. Consumables, broken PVE skills, and Glyph of Swiftness. Before this, the only way you could perma Obsidian Flesh was E/R using serpents quickness which actually took a lot of skill. There were very few farms that took great advantage of this skill and being an ele with no perma SF it was also a skill running to the farm location (ie. Icy Dragon Sword farming). Nowadays, Glyph of Swiftness (GoS) enables every man and his dog to perma shadow, perma OF without having to manage energy and timing regarding all the skills you need to actually tank successfully. Oh, i guess there was also Mantra of Earth... but keeping Obsidian flesh up 100% could only be done using Serpents Quickness and a 20% enchant.

put up your hands here anyone who is QQing about the upcoming SF, OF and 600/Smite nerfs who actually finished Prophecies with Prophecies only skills and no heros? who here remembers perma-form A/Me sins in AB and HA?

and what is this whole side conversation on buffing dervs, paras, mesmers, etc etc. i guess no one really cares about the actual proposed changes apart from a few people who are actually contributing to what problems the new updates might cause. the rest of what everyone else is saying is just rubbish and trolling that is just making it harder for ANet and the Test Krewe to sort through all the genuine contributions.

I wish people would get off their self-interest-profession-based high horses for long enough and actually discuss the "actual" changes being made instead of QQ cry more QQ my profession X gets nothing QQ cry more QQ.

Side matter; I play monk (pvp + Pve), Ele (Pve), Sin(Pvp) and recently Warrior (Pvp) and Mesmer (pvp).

I can see the new tactics buffs will put better stances back onto monks bars again. I wouldn;t mind if these were definitely PVP based. But would make monks all that more tougher to kill considering the extra armour from shields and disciples insignias when combined with a tactics shield. i am particularly interested in Deflect Arrows considering the amount of Ranger hate that monks receive in PvP. Combine this with Bonnettis and you have some pretty good defence... it will bring back wild blow and other such things.

Another interesting skill would be "Retreat". It would remove the need for x/P in HA and would allow warriors to use this in HA. Perhaps it could open up some extra meta for GvG runners or could even be used on monks as a protective buff for the team as well as blocking protection for the monk.

However, i am unsure if this will be applied to PvP or will be split into PvE. It will make things even more complicated considering the already growing number of split skills. I thought ANet were trying to remove passive blocking from the game considering what they did to Aegis and Ward Against Melee. Perhaps they are trying to bring back some form of protection for the backline...

...i can only think of IWAY and Paraway.... say .... hello

i am wondering if Shove will still disable non-attack skills? Hmmm... Shove Sins or even a nice spike since ending stances which would be a nice counter against all the extra stances. I am looking foward to seeing how the meta will develop which should allow some new OP builds and remove some old OP builds from the meta.

I am sure people will come up with some interesting new builds.

Its obviously very far from what we see as been a true "mes bar" and it is kinda generic.

Have to say tho that echo sin spamming with ap on mes is very much up there for output and is much more lenient on play than a Necro mop nuker and doesnt need to be synergised so heavily with physicals ^
Arcane echo is the kicker here! and only a me/a or a/me can get it.

Still a sad state of affairs that the best a mes can do(well that of FD) is so generic...

Quoted the important part. You play 5 classes going by this. Of those, 4/5 you play in PvP. I'd say you're more PvP-oriented>and you also say you recently started war and....Da-da-da-dummmmm!!!! Mesmer. Recently.

No offence, but you haven't been especially involved in this thread, a thread about a primarily PvE update, you don't appear to be as involved in the machinations of PvE as the majority of us that have been involved from the first page, and again, you recently started playing a Mes. Recently. In PvP.

If anyone is sitting on a high horse, it's ppz like you who have what appears to be minimal interest, minimal involvement, and minimal experience/skill, when it comes to what and who you're bashing. Or appear to be.

The proposed changes are getting, and have had, just as much attention as the things that haven't been changed, where this thread is concerned, and moreover the direct and prompt manner in which people are arcing up about it is exactly the sort of feedback that this thread was created for in the first place.

IMHO.

FD isn't very good either (at least, not in HM). Mesmers really aren't useful in PvE outside of spamming CoP, VoR, or AP nuking. And Anet took two of those away.....so......

I still play my mesmer in PvE anyway, because I just love it. However, I'd really love to have more choices that don't suck.