Some of you need to be reminded what GW stands for and that it's not all about the way you play only.
This has been Anet's view for years:
'ArenaNet tries to keep the game fun for everyone while still providing fun and rewarding play for solo farmers.'
The recent mess only confirms we're on the wrong track now. All in the name of balance, just like the inquisition did things in the name of god, they're just beliefs of a fanatic group. It's no secret that it is the people who scream the loudest that seem to be the most intolerant for a differing point of view. And that's not what GW needs. Did the TK play a huge role in that? I don't know, but if they did, Anet should let them go and take control in own hands again.
I sincerely hope Anet realises their mistake and will make certain play styles less dull again, like 600/smite.
Thank you.
It's time the anti farming and anti solo inquisition comes to an end.
Gun Pierson
FoxBat
I guess it's not fun unless you're doing 8x better than balanced parties? It's not like soloing or farming is anywhere near dead.
Phineas
/agree on the 600/smite reference.
It's hard for us to know the input the TK has without ANet telling us but, even so, I would not expect them to be dictated to by the TK. I would hope the TK thoroughly play-test ANet's proposed changes and report findings, but I suspect this may not be the case.
In my opinion, it is much more fun doing 4x better than balanced with 600/smite, and as you rightly point out... solo farming still exists, so why not 600/smite?
It's hard for us to know the input the TK has without ANet telling us but, even so, I would not expect them to be dictated to by the TK. I would hope the TK thoroughly play-test ANet's proposed changes and report findings, but I suspect this may not be the case.
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Originally Posted by FoxBat
I guess it's not fun unless you're doing 8x better than balanced parties? It's not like soloing or farming is anywhere near dead.
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Kattar
Doesn't seem like ANet was trying to kill solo play or farming, just trying to take away the imba build everyone was using. Same thing they did with Ursan.
Honestly, outside of one build, is there anything else anyone was using to effectively solo farm?
Also, NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! Just had to throw that one in there.
Honestly, outside of one build, is there anything else anyone was using to effectively solo farm?
Also, NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! Just had to throw that one in there.
The-Bigz
I dont have any problems with the imba builds and I'm not part of the ecto farming/must get R6 GWAMM to be pro group. I just think that some PvE content was toned up due to these imba farming builds and perfectly viable builds have now been nerfed throughout the years because one of the key skills was one of the key skills in the imba farming chain.
Its really hard to find a pug that knows what their doing, let alone a 'Run this off PvX wiki or gtfo noob' group. That sorta ruins PvE for me, but I'm not heavy into it.
Hope you consider my feedback too on the issue of buffed areas/instances because of failure to nerf imba builds right away.
Its really hard to find a pug that knows what their doing, let alone a 'Run this off PvX wiki or gtfo noob' group. That sorta ruins PvE for me, but I'm not heavy into it.
Hope you consider my feedback too on the issue of buffed areas/instances because of failure to nerf imba builds right away.
Shayne Hawke
Are you saying that 600/Smite is a solo build?
Maybe it was, and then people started using it for speed clears. It was also an offender of its own right by easily passing through what was supposed to be meant as high-end content.
The case is similar with Shadow Form. Shadow Form is okay if it can be used as a solo farm. Once it gets to the point where a team of these users can clear areas with superiority that other builds can't come close to, it's a problem.
Maybe it was, and then people started using it for speed clears. It was also an offender of its own right by easily passing through what was supposed to be meant as high-end content.
The case is similar with Shadow Form. Shadow Form is okay if it can be used as a solo farm. Once it gets to the point where a team of these users can clear areas with superiority that other builds can't come close to, it's a problem.
Phineas
I'm saying 600/Smite was (also) played by individuals and should not be viewed in the same light as pure solo builds for the simple reason that it has 2 component characters. If solo play is permitted, why not a decent 2 man team that can be easily managed by 1 human?
Such teams would still not have the luxury of passing through mobs unaffected (and spell protection + a speed boost is 'unaffected' as melee won't bother you).
Such teams would still not have the luxury of passing through mobs unaffected (and spell protection + a speed boost is 'unaffected' as melee won't bother you).
YunSooJin
yes, yes... Gun Pierson is the man to let us know what GW really stands for.
We'd be lost if it weren't for his unerring guidance ~_~
We'd be lost if it weren't for his unerring guidance ~_~
Spiritz
Lets see - 3 professions used for farming gets hit , 1 profession mainly because of all the anti perma sf ppl who regard each sf user being guilty of being in every sc which caused anet to hit the next 2 in line .
Not every sf sin did uw or sc`s - my sin must have missed out bigtime as she never did a sc or uw farming.. oh what did i miss lol.
Im not complaining tho as thanks to sf haters sf became a new and possibly better skill that can now be used/abused by all classes - ty all :P
Now i can still do plenty of solo farming and even uw duo farming with any chr i have without having to rely on shadowform - all anet did in the end was shift farming methods and places that are used for farming.Even speedclears now are starting to be tested and im sure anet thought they were laid to rest for a few months not a few days.
GW is meant to be played how you want to play it - your own skillbars etc and if people want to play solo then why deny them that.If people get put off pugs because they dont have certain skills , get called noobs for many reasons and so on then sure as hell they going to go solo and that soon lowers the amount of ppl able to pug.
Maybe its not anet that sometimes hurts how we play gw but ourselves with our own attitudes.
Not every sf sin did uw or sc`s - my sin must have missed out bigtime as she never did a sc or uw farming.. oh what did i miss lol.
Im not complaining tho as thanks to sf haters sf became a new and possibly better skill that can now be used/abused by all classes - ty all :P
Now i can still do plenty of solo farming and even uw duo farming with any chr i have without having to rely on shadowform - all anet did in the end was shift farming methods and places that are used for farming.Even speedclears now are starting to be tested and im sure anet thought they were laid to rest for a few months not a few days.
GW is meant to be played how you want to play it - your own skillbars etc and if people want to play solo then why deny them that.If people get put off pugs because they dont have certain skills , get called noobs for many reasons and so on then sure as hell they going to go solo and that soon lowers the amount of ppl able to pug.
Maybe its not anet that sometimes hurts how we play gw but ourselves with our own attitudes.
![[DE]](/static/static/../Img/avatar38220_14.gif){kind=avatar}
[DE]
I want prot bond back then.
SF and 600/Smite have been viable for farming in some way, shape, or form since Factions came out. I'm pretty sure they've outstayed their welcome.
SF and 600/Smite have been viable for farming in some way, shape, or form since Factions came out. I'm pretty sure they've outstayed their welcome.
Johny bravo
600/smite is not dead just a little slower. If you do it right you can still pump out a continuous 36 damage per hit and up to 45 for a decent interval. (this is with no group or personal cons)
All that is required is a little messing around with the builds. The smite is a lot more versatile now as he is not at 0 energy all the time.
To be honest the 600 itself is now even easier to run in certain areas as SF is much easier to maintain then SB was giving you a little more of a buffer between casts
So stop whining and come up with something new.
My friends build is almost under 40 for foundry clear (fury included) and the city is soon to follow. Granted this is slower then the previous sub 30 runs but once we get it down perfect it will only be a 5-6 minute different.
As for solo farming it isn't gone just a shift. There have been many shifts in solo farming since GW came out. Back in the day warriors and 55 monks ruled the solo farmers other classes could do it but those seemed to be the best. Those builds soon less effective and had to give way to a new generation of farming builds.
Some solo farming builds are actually stronger no, the Spectral farm is actually faster on an OF ele then it used to be as there is no longer a movement penalty for OF. Sins can still sliver farm, with EBSOH you get the damage buff needed to kill stuff faster. Solo farming is just a little slower and harder then it used to be.
So stop complaining and either come up with some adjusted builds or, as I suspect, wait for something to be posted on wiki so you can roll your head over your keyboard again
All that is required is a little messing around with the builds. The smite is a lot more versatile now as he is not at 0 energy all the time.
To be honest the 600 itself is now even easier to run in certain areas as SF is much easier to maintain then SB was giving you a little more of a buffer between casts
So stop whining and come up with something new.
My friends build is almost under 40 for foundry clear (fury included) and the city is soon to follow. Granted this is slower then the previous sub 30 runs but once we get it down perfect it will only be a 5-6 minute different.
As for solo farming it isn't gone just a shift. There have been many shifts in solo farming since GW came out. Back in the day warriors and 55 monks ruled the solo farmers other classes could do it but those seemed to be the best. Those builds soon less effective and had to give way to a new generation of farming builds.
Some solo farming builds are actually stronger no, the Spectral farm is actually faster on an OF ele then it used to be as there is no longer a movement penalty for OF. Sins can still sliver farm, with EBSOH you get the damage buff needed to kill stuff faster. Solo farming is just a little slower and harder then it used to be.
So stop complaining and either come up with some adjusted builds or, as I suspect, wait for something to be posted on wiki so you can roll your head over your keyboard again
Tullzinski
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Originally Posted by Kattar
Also, NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!
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The constant nerf/buff cycle is crazy.
Seeping wound was totally missed/not tested. So much that it was nerfed immediately. Why was that?
To Chicken To Die
It took you less then one week the get frustade over the fact that you can't make money with the same speed as u used to do. pls resign
Aldo wants more
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gun Pierson
Some of you need to be reminded what GW stands for and that it's not all about the way you play only.
This has been Anet's view for years: 'ArenaNet tries to keep the game fun for everyone while still providing fun and rewarding play for solo farmers.' The recent mess only confirms we're on the wrong track now. All in the name of balance, just like the inquisition did things in the name of god, they're just beliefs of a fanatic group. It's no secret that it is the people who scream the loudest that seem to be the most intolerant for a differing point of view. And that's not what GW needs. Did the TK play a huge role in that? I don't know, but if they did, Anet should let them go and take control in own hands again. I sincerely hope Anet realises their mistake and will make certain play styles less dull again, like 600/smite. Thank you. |
We actually consider 600/smite as a means to an end (HoM accomplishments) and it was an enjoyable way to spend a few hours a day relaxing. Honestly it was the main reason a lot of us played on after completing existing content.
Winry Sagara
600/Smite gave me a lot of fun but, for example, dungeons like Rragar's Menagerie were too easy to finish in 1h/1h15m. A 8-man balanced team is more funny than a 600/smite or an Assassin Perma SF.
We play a MMORPG, not a single player game.
We play a MMORPG, not a single player game.
willie nelson
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Originally Posted by Gun Pierson
The recent mess only confirms we're on the wrong track now. All in the name of balance, just like the inquisition did things in the name of god, they're just beliefs of a fanatic group.
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Seriously?
By your join date, which is Feb 2006, you'd think you would have figured out there will be another popular farming build very soon.
Urass
I understand the concept, but not the timing.
There probably was a time you could put together a PUG sufficiently experienced to, let's say, defeat Duncan the Black in HM, but that is just not do-able anymore... player deficiency.
As I pass through many towns I will see a single player LFG to do mish/quests, with no takers... I have on occasion jumped in just for the sport and to help out.
And what was the harm in 600ing a dungeon? Passengers happily paid and everyone was happy... well, looks like not everyone
I would not want to be starting any of the campaigns at this time.
I just love the purist game Nazis... "Ya vot, you vill play my vay or you vill be nerfed"
There probably was a time you could put together a PUG sufficiently experienced to, let's say, defeat Duncan the Black in HM, but that is just not do-able anymore... player deficiency.
As I pass through many towns I will see a single player LFG to do mish/quests, with no takers... I have on occasion jumped in just for the sport and to help out.
And what was the harm in 600ing a dungeon? Passengers happily paid and everyone was happy... well, looks like not everyone
I would not want to be starting any of the campaigns at this time.
I just love the purist game Nazis... "Ya vot, you vill play my vay or you vill be nerfed"
Orange Milk
I would do the old "this is a MMO, which means Massive MULTI Player and not solo'
But Anet made Hero's wich eliminated that years ago so who knows.
It was time for a SF nerf 8 months ago, the didn't nerf it correctly the first, or second or third time they did it.
My guess is they slowed sown the farms so you have to comit time to GWs in hopes you will commit more time or get involved with other things while on line for longer periods of time.
I laugh at the QQing about the nerfs that EVERYONE knew were coming. I've never had a PvE Sin or Monk and I Solo farm plenty of stuff just fine.
It goes back to what I've been saying for a while now. "Give someone and inch and they take a mile" work for something and earn something it's alot more fulfilling that way.
But Anet made Hero's wich eliminated that years ago so who knows.
It was time for a SF nerf 8 months ago, the didn't nerf it correctly the first, or second or third time they did it.
My guess is they slowed sown the farms so you have to comit time to GWs in hopes you will commit more time or get involved with other things while on line for longer periods of time.
I laugh at the QQing about the nerfs that EVERYONE knew were coming. I've never had a PvE Sin or Monk and I Solo farm plenty of stuff just fine.
It goes back to what I've been saying for a while now. "Give someone and inch and they take a mile" work for something and earn something it's alot more fulfilling that way.
Popeye1906
SoS.
Plz stop QQing.
Plz stop QQing.
cognophile
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Originally Posted by [DE]
I want prot bond back then.
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Here's an example of how running / farming / invulnerability can harm cooperative gameplay.
Let's say I'm trying to form a group for some mission and have gathered maybe 5-6 people together. Suddenly a runner shows up offering to run the mission for 1k, and 2-3 of the group members leave to join the runner. Ouch.
So, it's not just about people blindly hating a certain play style if that play style has a visible negative effect on a player's ability to find or form a group.
Reformed
That's not really what the inquisition was about OP but I suppose I agree with the rest of your points. The only time I was ever mildly annoyed by PuG shifts was when Ursan jumped into progressively more exclusive team formations. In the case of these solo and team farms I've never really had a problem and if anything they keep a nice steady flow of high end items coming to market. I wouldn't hold my breath on this being the end of all of this however. There is a small but extremely vocal group that has gotten results in the past and wants to see these things removed for purely selfish reasons. Until Anet starts saying "no" this group is always going to come back to the table...I give it 6 months maximum.
Gill Halendt
Well, in the interview @ PAX, when questioned about Shadow Form, Linsey Murdock states that they've been lingering on these nerfs because they were afraid of the reaction of farmers. She cites the precedent of Ursan: even if it's still playable and powerful, people don't want to use it anymore, since it's "nerfed".
Guess who's been screaming the loudest for months then: farmers had the developers in check so far. And, guess what, SF and 600/Smite are still playable, functional and efficient, just a little toned down.
If you want to play the game "as you like" with no intervention from developers and no input from the community playing it, well, online games are not for you. Get a single player game.
Guess who's been screaming the loudest for months then: farmers had the developers in check so far. And, guess what, SF and 600/Smite are still playable, functional and efficient, just a little toned down.
If you want to play the game "as you like" with no intervention from developers and no input from the community playing it, well, online games are not for you. Get a single player game.
Darcy
Read again ArenaNet's stand on imba builds. They will ALWAYS nerf a widely-used skill that makes high-end content too easy. Older accounts will remember the loss of the 50-minion armies, middle-aged accounts the Ursan nerf, and now young ones the SF, SoS, OF and HW nerfs. All focused on the same company stance - if you want the good stuff, you will work for it.
"Ultimately, we focused on the lack of trade-offs in builds centered around Shadow Form and, to a lesser degree, other sources of invulnerability. All builds should have trade-offs. Extreme defense should come at the price of offense. Extreme offense should come at the cost of defense. The most efficient characters for solo-farming should differ somewhat from the best characters for team play. The best team builds for clearing endgame content efficiently should not consist almost exclusively of a single profession. (For example, a 5-Obsidian-Flesh-Elementalist/3-Monk team that can clear the Underworld is fine, but a build like that should not feel like it's a significantly better way to play than using a more balanced team.) In addition, we've maintained our stance that endgame content should not be completed so easily or so quickly that it becomes trivialized. All of our changes are geared toward reinforcing those principles."
"Ultimately, we focused on the lack of trade-offs in builds centered around Shadow Form and, to a lesser degree, other sources of invulnerability. All builds should have trade-offs. Extreme defense should come at the price of offense. Extreme offense should come at the cost of defense. The most efficient characters for solo-farming should differ somewhat from the best characters for team play. The best team builds for clearing endgame content efficiently should not consist almost exclusively of a single profession. (For example, a 5-Obsidian-Flesh-Elementalist/3-Monk team that can clear the Underworld is fine, but a build like that should not feel like it's a significantly better way to play than using a more balanced team.) In addition, we've maintained our stance that endgame content should not be completed so easily or so quickly that it becomes trivialized. All of our changes are geared toward reinforcing those principles."
Essence Snow
Or in the case of UW...A-Net changed the area itself due to farming builds. Thus making it much harder for any other options to complete it. Note: Servents of Grenth is rediculous....not luv for A-Net on that quest. (granted I can't stand babysitting mishs of any kind)
Pleikki
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Or in the case of UW...A-Net changed the area itself due to farming builds. Thus making it much harder for any other options to complete it. Note: Servents of Grenth is rediculous....not luv for A-Net on that quest. (granted I can't stand babysitting mishs of any kind)
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Hopefully someting like that will also come for FoW, its cool stuff.
Del
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Originally Posted by Darcy
SF, SoS, OF and HW nerfs. All focused on the same company stance - if you want the good stuff, you will work for it.
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LazyLink
You're comparing Anet to the spanish inquisition???
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahah...heheh...o oo
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahah...heheh...o oo
makafri
don't cry and just find another way to "solo farm"
Orry
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Originally Posted by Urass
And what was the harm in 600ing a dungeon? Passengers happily paid and everyone was happy... well, looks like not everyone
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If a build can solo, duo, or even trio an area designed for 8 people to have a challenge with, it is broken and has no place in an online game.
Game balance in PvE requires professions to be equally efficient in clearing actual missions and dungeons, once a profession becomes more efficient than another at clearing these areas it is imbalanced.
Which leaves two options:
1) Nerf the overpowered build
2)Buff every other build to the point where it becomes as effective as the overpowered build
Option 1 leads to gameplay that is still challenging, where option two makes you able to take any 8 people regardless of skill level and steamroll an elite area. Incidently, both options kill running, but only option two makes farming less effective by comparison to other builds.
Morphy
I sort of agree with the OP but only because I think PvE is a crappy format that won't benefit from balance. Nerfs/Buffs or no, PvE won't change until the AI is improved. And even then, it will always be inferior to PvP anyway. Sucky format is sucky.
Orry
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Originally Posted by Morphy
I sort of agree with the OP but only because I think PvE is a crappy format that won't benefit from balance. Nerfs/Buffs or no, PvE won't change until the AI is improved. And even then, it will always be inferior to PvP anyway. Sucky format is sucky.
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i don't think I even need to write /sarcasm for people to know I'm being sarcastic.
Gun Pierson
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Originally Posted by LazyLink
You're comparing Anet to the spanish inquisition???
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I also like to point out that there's a big misunderstanding that (solo) farmers only play solo and thus should play an offline game. The beauty of GW is that you can play different styles depending on what you feel like when logging on.
Another misunderstanding is that it's all about the money or not be able to cope with nerfs. Most long time players already have everything they want, from gold to knowledge about the game.
This is about the fun of the hunt which decreases immensely by making it dull and boring. It's about PvE endgame content and enjoyable replayability and the importance of loot and farming in an RPG game, online or offline is irrelevant.
willie nelson
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Originally Posted by Gun Pierson
This is about the fun of the hunt which decreases immensely by making it dull and boring.
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What is this, i don't even
enter_the_zone
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Originally Posted by Orry
Because being told to "just buy a run" when you are trying to look for a legitimate group is fun, right?
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And smiting is more fun now, even if it takes 25% longer. And the smite need to have a brain, which has killed pugging, to an extent.
Orry
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Originally Posted by Gun Pierson
Not Anet, the fanatic anti (solo) farming group and their arguments and behaviour. Especially when you realise that in GW there are no über items or gear that give you tremendous advantages like in other games.
I also like to point out that there's a big misunderstanding that (solo) farmers only play solo and thus should play an offline game. The beauty of GW is that you can play different styles depending on what you feel like when logging on. Another misunderstanding is that it's all about the money or not be able to cope with nerfs. Most long time players already have everything they want, from gold to knowledge about the game. This is about the fun of the hunt which decreases immensely by making it dull and boring. It's about PvE endgame content and enjoyable replayability and the importance of loot and farming in an RPG game, online or offline is irrelevant. |
I can't speak for other people who wanted this update though.
Gun Pierson
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Originally Posted by willie nelson
Let me get this straight, making you change one overpowered build every few months(or years) is somehow more dull and boring than using the same build over and over and over and over and over...
What is this, i don't even |
reaper with no name
SF and 600/Smite were not farming builds.
Farming builds are, by their very nature, limited in scope. 55 is an example. In certain areas, it dominates everything it meets. However, if you try to use it as a general PvE build...the results aren't pretty.
This is a good thing. 55 should not be touched for this reason.
However, SF and 600/Smite weren't like this. They dominated most of the game, and often did it better than entire parties (admittedly, SF was much worse in this regard). That is not farming. That is taking a hammer and smashing PvE into little bitty pieces with it.
See the difference? There is nothing wrong with farming. If Anet really had a problem with it they would have nerfed SoS into the ground, or killed 55 monks. What Anet (rightly) has a problem with is builds that break PvE in half to the point that it becomes trivial, and people are left to look at the other professions going "why on earth would I use something so crappy when I can just use these guys?".
No, but there are builds that do. And that's why they got nerfed. 
Farming builds are, by their very nature, limited in scope. 55 is an example. In certain areas, it dominates everything it meets. However, if you try to use it as a general PvE build...the results aren't pretty.
This is a good thing. 55 should not be touched for this reason.
However, SF and 600/Smite weren't like this. They dominated most of the game, and often did it better than entire parties (admittedly, SF was much worse in this regard). That is not farming. That is taking a hammer and smashing PvE into little bitty pieces with it.
See the difference? There is nothing wrong with farming. If Anet really had a problem with it they would have nerfed SoS into the ground, or killed 55 monks. What Anet (rightly) has a problem with is builds that break PvE in half to the point that it becomes trivial, and people are left to look at the other professions going "why on earth would I use something so crappy when I can just use these guys?".
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gun Pierson
Especially when you realise that in GW there are no über items or gear that give you tremendous advantages like in other games.
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willie nelson
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gun Pierson
Because doing the same thing for an extra 10 minutes a run
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WarcryOfTruth
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Originally Posted by Kattar
Honestly, outside of one build, is there anything else anyone was using to effectively solo farm?
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I was... and still solo farm on my paragon, I don't do it often, but I still do it. Farming Dead Swords and Elemental Swords and Totem Axes. Sure, those items may not be worth much, but I farm them because they are easy to do so on my Paragon and it makes me money. So yea... I used something other then the "one build"
highway
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Originally Posted by cognophile
^ As [DE] points out, there is a long precedent for nerfing invulnerability based builds.
Here's an example of how running / farming / invulnerability can harm cooperative gameplay. Let's say I'm trying to form a group for some mission and have gathered maybe 5-6 people together. Suddenly a runner shows up offering to run the mission for 1k, and 2-3 of the group members leave to join the runner. Ouch. So, it's not just about people blindly hating a certain play style if that play style has a visible negative effect on a player's ability to find or form a group. |
Yes, if you go with your guild, and people you trust it is a different story.