Rewards Balance?

Lol, no, nothing that stupid.

The same people who have been playing since the game's inception still play the Elite areas (or some do, whatever). The reason they stick to these areas, and others like Zaishen missions and such, is because the rewards (ectos, Zaishen coins, etc.) are much more valuable than say, slogging to the far western side of the Maguuma jungle in HM.

But if ANet changes up the reward/drop scale such that you'd get about the same amount of rewards per unit time no matter WHERE you played, then a lot of the game would open up to more players.

Basically it would breathe life back into stale areas. The whole Zaishen mission concept is a microcosm of this idea, increasing the reward potential of "stale" areas, which I thought was somewhat obvious and the basis for my idea.

So I'm not advocating earning MORE money/rewards, just the same no matter where you played. As an example, you could probably kill much faster in Maguuma NM then UW HM. The drop rates for good stuff in Maguuma (after a change, such as a really low drop rate of ectos) is much lower than UW, yet because the average player can kill MUCH faster there, the reward per time ratio could be equivalent, if ANet handled it right.

This kind of idea would also make the game more PUG and noob friendly, beyond being lucky with the Zaishen Mission rotations and having the outpost you're in be populated that day.

I know personally that if I could make the same amount of profit/reward/drops from playing through the Prophecies campaign as I could relentlessly farming the UW, I would absolutely choose to do the campaign again. But as it is now, the reward potential of taking my 2000 hour old lvl 20 through yet another UW run far outstrips the reward potential of taking a lvl 1 character through Prophecies.

And whether people like Yelling wish to believe it or not, people are reward motivated especially in games like GW where the only PvE motivation after beating the game the first time is generally to upgrade the looks of your characters.

Lastly, just to make it clear, when I say reward ratio and drop adjustment, I'm NOT solely advocating allowing "noobs" to have FoW mats by the time they reach Sanctum Cay, as so many seem to focus on in reward discussions, I simply mean that over the course of normal play, one could reliably expect to see nice drops, rather than the "random" drop system now, where it takes thousands of runs and hours for the drop rate to smooth out. A player should NOT be rewarded after a two hour slog through a HM dungeon with a balanced PUG that was frustrating to deal with with a diamond and onyx or two.

But just to be clear, the crux of the idea is to make the WHOLE game rewarding and enticing to play, rather than just the elite areas.

If you want to improve pugging, Zaishen is the right idea. More equal rewards is the exact opposite - it spreads everyone out in their own area doing their own thing - while concentrating them in a few elite areas or a daily quest makes coop more likely.

All right, I'm starting to see where you are coming from. I like the idea of global Z-Quest type rewards. The important good points of Z-Quest rewards are:

1. They are fixed. You always know what you are going to get, which makes it easy to decide whether or not you want to put the time and effort into obtaining them. You will never be disappointed.

2. They scale with the difficulty of the task. You wont get more ectos in HM, but you will get more Z-coins.

3. They are unique. They do not diminish the value of existing items. IMO this is the most important difference between your original idea and Z-Quests.

Create a system that takes advantage of these three elements and I think you have gone a long way towards your goals.

QFT. Humans are reward motivated in any situation like this. It may not make logical sense to some people that you can be reward motivated by pixels, but the real "reward" is proving that you are better than another player. Platinum is PvE's way of keeping score.

This is the point I tried to make a while back when I mentioned the NwN loot scale system. Because everything drops everywhere, as a result, you don't see a lot of concentrated farm areas, and you tend to see people everywhere..

This I agree with.

If you want to improve pugging you have to increase the intelligence of the average player.

95% of the game is EASIER done with H/H than it is with PuGs. In fact, going with H/H is better than setting up guild runs since there is no downtime, no waiting, and if you have to go piss, not everyone is slowed down.

Making Maguuma profitable isn't going to increase PuGs any more than the nerf to Crippling Shot. Anyone who thinks it will is either totally naive, or completely dumb.

The only thing that making Maguuma as profitable as FoW would do is make people that have an itch to play in Maguuma happier...when in reality, the people who have an itch to play in Maguuma should just play in Maguuma.

So I posit this question to the human brick wall:

Why then does the majority of the userbase play ONLY in areas with high rewards, such as UW/FoW/DoA/etc.? Is it simply a coincidence that everyone's favorite area is also the area with the highest reward ratio in the game? I mean, there must be a reason, since according to your logic people are not motivated by rewards, and those that think so are as you said naive or stupid...

[edit] For further clarification, look at the "whatever happened to Sorrow's Furnace" thread. Many peeps in there advocate redoing the loot tables for chests, changing or upping the rewards to get people interested in the area again etc.

Bottom line is, make an area rewarding, people will play it. This usually means unique rewards (ectos, boss greens/golds, rare skins, etc.) that cannot be acquired elsewhere. I remember playing endlessly for a set of Dragon Scythes for my Sin in Kurzick areas I might not have otherwise played.

I think what he is trying to say is that not EVERYONE is reward motivated. Sure there are a lot of people who play only in the UW/FoW/DoA/etc., but there are also a lot of people who could but who dont. At least that is what I got from his post. However, I would say that everyone is different and saying someone is illogical because they are motivated by rewards is just as stupid as saying someone is illogical because they play the game for fun, not for the rewards.

That said, I think the reason why we sometimes assume that the majority of the game is the portion that does UW/FoW farms and SCs and that is motivated only by getting as much internetgold as possible is because that portion of players tends to be the loudest and most outspoken. I would bet that there are many more of them on forums like this than there are players who play for fun rather than rewards. Also, it is natural that they are the ones more likely to ask for more rewards... because that is what motivates them. When you have one group of players asking for more rewards, and the other group of players remaining quiet because they are content with the reward system, of course one would assume that the louder group that is more visible on forums and that asks for more is going to be a bigger majority of the population.

I dont know for sure what the proportion of reward-driven FoWers/UWers to fun driven do-what-we-wanters is, but I would guess that it is actually pretty close. Therefore, you cant make generalizations that assume that:

or that

or this

because really, all of us have different tastes. I, being in the group that is driven by the fun factor, am fine with having increased rewards. It wouldnt affect the fun of playing the game. I just think that Anet should be focusing more on fixing the gameplay rather than the rewards. To use an example: Rather than increasing the value of the chest drops at the end of a dungeon, I would like to see Anet make the gameplay leading up to the chest drop more fun. This is all assuming, of course, that we are trying to increase the motivation to do said dungeon.

The problem with your contention is that you're asking ANet to change the gameplay, which is impossible. The gameplay is based on the engine, ANet can add more monsters, change skillbars around, but at the end of the day, the game will play EXACTLY the same as it did before.

GW2 might add in flying mounts, variable elevation, swimming etc. these are all gameplay changes but require new base programming. To do this in GW1 would require updating the engine to the GW2 version or a hybrid inbetween and would take vast amounts of work compared to any other game changing alterations.

By altering the reward system, you add incentives (basically the carrot at the end of the stick) for players to re-visit old areas. Regardless of what people would LIKE to think, the majority of the game is dead for the vast amount of players. I can take a character and randomly zone in to outposts throughout all three main games and EoTN, but the only ones that have more than five or six people at any one time are UW/FoW outposts, certain dungeon areas, the trade zones (Spamadan) and Zaishen mission/Isle of Balthazar and PvP areas.

The rest of the game is dead. As I've said multiple times, this isn't because the playerbase is morally opposed to playing in HM Maguuma, or that the Crystal Desert is itchy because sand gets everywhere, its due to the reward/time ratio being so much lower there than the few places mentioned above.

Believe it or not, the fact is humans are reward motivated (tangible or fun, but after playing the game for four years, how much "fun" reward is there to be had in re-playing the same areas the umpteenth time?) and follow the path of least resistance, hence the prevalence of speed clears and such. You can claim its not right and that you don't denigrate yourself by doing so, but you're the absolute small minority.

And I can make generalizations, cause see, I just did again. Everyone may have different tastes, but they're usually just variations on the same theme. And usually, games like GW and other MMOs cater to a playerbase that has similar tastes, hence the same grind based gameplay and item hunt.

well believe it or not, your generalizations arent true. You intend to categorize all players as reward motivated because you contend that all humans are reward motivated.

You say that all players are reward motivated, which is evidence by the prevalence of speed clears? That proves nothing really. While speed clears are common, They are not the only thing that people do in PvE. First you have to reduce the number of people who speed clear for the fun factor (in other words, they speed clear because they enjoy it and they would continue to do it even without the rewards). This is probably a very small portion of the speed clearers/farmers out there, but I have heard many times people say that they enjoy the activity of doing the speed clear or doing the farm. I would say that if you take all of the Speed clearers and subtract this small portion, you would probably be left with around half of the PvE population.

What I am trying to say is that you grostly overestimate the amount of players who speed clear. Therefore, you cant say that all humans are reward based when not all of the players in this game are speed clears out mainly for the rewards.

Well that would largely depend on what number "the umpteenth time" stands for, and how long it has been since you last played it. I tend to take extended breaks (~4 months) from time to time, and when I come back, I tend to find that those areas are a lot more fun to play. Regardless, this isnt the point I was trying to make. The point is that not all areas are necessarily "fun", like you say, which is why I was offering the suggestion of improving gameplay.

On the topic of gameplay, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Im not suggesting they change the engine of GW1. What I am suggesting is making changes so that going through a dungeon would not feel repetitive. Skill updates are a mini example of this. When you get to go through a dungeon with new skills, its a little bit different and a little bit fresher. A better example would be changing up enemies encountered, making it so you can bring 7 heroes, making it so you can control your heroes in the field like you can control your player character, and other miscellanious changes like that that can freshen up a random mission, dungeon, or vanquish.

Uh... no. People's tastes are not necessarily variations on the same theme, as is evidenced by the differences between me and you. You can believe otherwise all you want, but that doesnt make it true.

Then don't you think, you know, it's time to hang up the hat?

I mean, you're not making any sense. You are saying that nothing in the game is any fun, but increasing rewards to places like Maguuma is going to somehow improve your gaming. How is it going to improve your gaming if you already don't enjoy Maguuma?

I still maintain that the vast majority of humans are reward motivated. You may not care about accumulating platinum, but I guarantee that you "do-what-ever-you-wanters" are chasing some kind of reward or accomplishment. I haven't heard of anyone who plays that is not trying to earn titles, platinum, or some other, more personal, accomplishment. I'm not saying that they don't exist, just that they are a very small minority and a large game should not cater to them. Neither should a large game cater to the people who are trying to achieve a more personal accomplishment. These kind of people will find something to work towards no matter what the game provides them. Title grinders do not need to be catered to either, as they are completely satisfied with what they have (what could you do for them?). This just leaves the people in it for the platinum.
Is this really what you want for the Guild Wars community? To be missing for months at a time so they can find the game even remotely interesting when they come back?

They are. Read up on human psychology before you debate what drives humanity.

I guarantee that if tomorrow ANet removed all rewards from the game (and by all I mean ALL customization, economy, items and gear, titles, PvP rewards et al), the playerbase would vanish.

Why? Because without the chance to acquire something beyond the experience (literally and figuratively) from killing the same monster for the trillionth time, no one would play. This applies to both PvP and PvE by the way.

Argue the contrary all you want, but the simple fact is ALL humans are reward motivated, you're just confused over what constitutes a reward.

And @ Yelling, you just don't get it do you? Can you even read? This discussion is about what would improve the replayability of the whole game, not what each individual player should do. I have also NOT claimed that nothing in the game is any fun, I've simply stated my case that increasing or adjusting the reward ratio of the game would cause more players to migrate to different areas.

I have at no time stated that changing the rewards will IMPROVE gameplay, as that would require alterations to the game engine and how the game is played. What I HAVE claimed is that by changing the reward ratio of various areas ANet would be extending the "carrot on a stick" formula to more than just the Elite and Zaishen mission areas, which would again cause players to move to other areas.

Before you respond, understand this crucial difference. If you can't, and are inclined to just reiterate your stance of players leaving, then don't even bother because that has nothing to do with the discussion.

You also said that nothing in the game is rewarding or fun so lets delete it and close the servers right ? no dude.
This thing is about balance , not a scream for "omg gimme ectos in maguuma" or "increase chance of BDS +50% i want one!" , this is about BALANCING the rewards between time/effort/mode . Balance is universal , dont think about "yeah , if i balance that , what do i get , more fun ?". Is not about giving something to players or keeping players in GW or making the game easier/wealthier/funnier , is about making rewards FAIR.
It is unbalanced and thats a fact you cant deny , if you played the game for its entire content ( yes , all areas including elites ) you would see it. Hell , same number of gold drops in dungeons end chests for a lvl 1 dungeon than a lvl 5 ? oh cmon , REALLY ?.
This game isnt perfect and for some ppl is not funny anymore but thats not a reason to give up balance and delete servers. Even if that balance means NO CHANGE in number of players its still fair and logical so it must be done.

There are other logical changes to be made and most of them are not going to happen and maybe this is one of those but i gotta tell you , if more rewards are added in order to balance some places , i can tell for sure that playerbase number WONT decrease ..... but increase instead in some areas. This change can only bring good things.

Challenge. For "seasoned" (skilled) players, anyways. They keep doing it time and again because there is at least some challenge for them. (Casual players tend to end up in areas that are somewhere just below their failure threshold, such as FoW.) I agree that money may draw them initially, but the challenge keeps them playing. To your point, though, many people complained about the rewards (drops) when they released DoA. But it never really improved, yet even you admit this is one of the places that people gravitate toward.

Well sure! Who isn't going to want more money and bright shiny objects! But if you just add more cash to the area, how long will that last? Challenge, I say, challenge...

Umm, huh? PvP is *all* about the experience. And dare I say, the Challenge! And it is just killing the same people, over and over. Then you start a new match, and kill those people over and over... Are you saying that it only exists because of the Zkeys that people get out of it? And how did it survive before we had Zkeys?

Uh... no... I never advocated that position at all. I never even hinted that I was advocating that position. I merely said that I have done this in the past to support another argument.

I'll admit that I am not professional in the field of psychology. Are you? If so, I will give into your argument that humanity is reward based, though I would need your definition of a "reward" first. I know from personal experience that a lot of what drives me and my guildies to play the game is just getting the opportunity to go out and VQ an area or play through some of the storyline with each other. Its fun. We get to socialize in ts, we dont pressure each other to use any certain build, and we do it because it is fun. We don't do the same stuff over and over again, because like you said, "killing the same monster for the trillionth time" is not something we fine fun. However, we arnt particularly getting rewarded for our efforts either.

So what I am trying to say is that I am fine with Anet increasing rewards and all that. I couldnt care less. It wouldnt make me happy and it wouldnt make me unhappy. What I would like to see is new ways to freshen up doing missions and quests and just going about killing stuff.

A reward is any sort of compensation for actions taken. What form the compensation takes is up to the rewarder, and its perceived value by the rewardee. Many arguments have been made over whether humanity can ever be truly altruistic for example, or if each good act also comes with a subconscious expectation of some form of recompense.

And yet you are! Your reward takes many forms just in this paragraph alone. Socialization, lack of pressure from bad PUGs, material rewards of vanquishing, the fun of playing in groups who know each others' capabilities, etc. If none of these things were possible by playing the game, its highly unlikely you would continue to play.

And hence, my idea/suggestion to increase or balance rewards throughout the gameworld. Its much easier to determine that material rewards are not in balance, than the fun quotient, as for many that's individual taste. Balancing rewards is a way to make a larger part of the game more fun or attractive for a larger amount of people, such as noobs and PUGs and H/Hers. If all areas are equally financially attractive, then the human propensity to find the quickest reward in the shortest amount of time will even out over the whole gameworld, thus keeping players interested in currently abandoned areas and potentially attracting new players.

While it may not affect you or some like Yelling specifically, it would have a broad impact on the playerbase at large, and whether you want to admit or not, the idea of getting more loot most likely appeals to you.

As for gameplay changes, I've said before there are engine limitations. I don't find skill balancing to really upset gameplay, since its basically switching out tools to accomplish the same task. Changing quests, making new ones and such would be a good way to update content, maybe even allow the community to submit quest ideas in the hopes they get "published" into the game.

I doubt that with ANet's current activities though, that ANY of my ideas will be moved to the front burner, but one can always discuss it!

@Grunntar, PvP is an entirely different reward system. Yes you have the same rewards like titles and such, or unlocking PvP equipment with points, but it boils down to the age old Conan quote, "Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the women!"

That is a reward in and of itself, the thrill of competition and the rush of victory over one's opponent. Not to mention the satisfaction of coordinating teams, working as part of a team, and the visceral thrill of a beatdown!

BUT its still gameplay that REWARDS the player.

In your post it suggested, to me at least, that this was an proper solution for game stagnancy. My question was rhetorical, aiming to simply highlight the idea that this should not be acceptable or needed in a good game (not that I think Guild Wars is a bad one). I am sorry if you feel that you have been misquoted, and I'm sorry it seemed like I was personally attacking you.

This is where you lose me. You have those same elements in PvE... So it's *your* perception that makes the difference. You perceive a different challenge in PvP than in PvE. In PvP, that challenge is enough to satisfy you, no? But in PvE it's not? True, AI is dumber, but that doesn't mean there are no challenges, and no coordination or teamwork. But those challenges don't provide enough gratification, so you need to substitute it with virtual loot to make your entertainment complete...?

This is where you lose me...

So are you saying you would play PvE even if no loot dropped... ever?

There are some similarities between PvE and PvP, such as killing stuff, and faction/XP. But that's where it ends.

In PvP, you are competing against real people. Its like playing chess against a real opponent vs. the computer, no matter how many times you play a human, there's always a different challenge, and overcoming that challenge is a reward in and of itself. Playing the AI of a chess game over and over is boring as hell, since even on the hardest difficulties, there's no innovation, no risk taking, and once you learn the algorithms, a cakewalk.

GW follows the same pattern, as do many online MMOs. The PvP reward is the satisfaction of defeating different opponents with varied skillsets, both gamewise (the actual skillbar) and player execution. The reason PvE has a loot system, drops, an economy, and in many cases a player crafting system and auction/trade houses is that these material rewards are a tangible replacement for the PvP thrill.

Beating down your 11 millionth orc/goblin/charr in PvE is not going to be as fun as beating your 11 millionth PvP opponent, because its always possible for players to innovate, not so the AI.

I still can't believe I'm explaining the basics of a PvP/PvE reward structure to Guru posters, its pretty self evident I would think. Its not about my perception, the rewards of PvE are VASTLY different than the rewards of PvP, if they weren't, then there would be no need for the two different game modes, and developers would stick to whichever mode sucks in the most players and their money.

Yeah same elements ..... so driving a Rusty crappy 90`s Ford is the same as driving a Dodge Viper GTS ...... because they both have wheels , windows , and gear.

Seriously pal , the only thing that PvP and PvE have in common is that theres a player involved ..... and if you play with H/H theres only 1/8 Human players. When talking about fighting , fighting thru PvE can be hard sometimes and a challenge the first or second time you do X ...... after that , theres no challenge. PvP is totally diff stuff , you cant compare them and even so , HA has an end chest lol .

Anyway , you are missing the point , for more info check my prev post .

I guess we had a misunderstanding then, as I assumed that you were talking solely about tangible (ingame at least), material rewards.

Sort of. I'm positing the idea of rebalance of tangible rewards to better attract the playerbase to dead areas.

Intangible rewards in PvE, such as playing with huildies and socialization are not something that could be balanced by ANet because that's a player initiated action.

The difference is, to "play" the game you kill stuff. ANet can balance rewards such that no matter where you kill stuff you're materially rewarded equivalently. This would form the basis of a balanced (materially anyways) gameworld.

All the stuff you mentioned in your previous post would be what I consider "icing on the cake." For you it may be the best part (as icing is to some hehe) but its "tacked on" to the base game of Guild Wars.

All I know is that slogging through two hour dungeons with PUGs (and high failure rates in HM) and ending up with crap whites for my time investment kind of soured the experience. Were I better rewarded for my time, I'd be more inclined to replay those areas, and many PUGs would be better motivated as well. It has to be acknowledged that the drop system in GW is far out of whack compared to most MMOs.

And yes, I'm sure someone will point out that the experience of the dungeon is the reward. Its ONE reward, but is certainly not enough to cause me to want to replay the area, and if ANet thought that was enough, then the drop/loot system might not even exist. IF areas were better reward balanced, it would incline players to revisit/re-play areas they long since abandoned, such as Sorrow's Furnace.

Update on my progress through the Skill Hunter title tracks, IMO it definately bears serious relevance to this topic, and to me, the fact that I'm progressing through all 3 as this thread progresses, to me serves as a pretty up to date and factual semi-statistical basepoint to show just how bad the rewards system is.

Finished Tyrian Skill Hunter last night, grand total of loot gained by all those bosses, is basically zip. Even when you consider that yes, the greens and golds are supposed to be rare, 150+(Safe estimate by my book)bosses killed, no greens, no golds, naught but whites and probably 10 at most blues, is bad.

On we continue to Canthan Skill Hunter.

Day 1(today), approximately 30 bosses killed, that's a pretty conservative estimate, has netted me once again, no greens. No golds, and this time, no blues either. Just a couple whites and some mundane craft mats. Random drops, certainly. Absolutely apalling? Definately. Bear in mind, chasing these titles, whilst not massively expensive, has still cost me well over 100k so far, and is set to cost me at least a couple hundred more.

Not wanting to start cutting into the Ecto I've accumulated through the evil demon that is farming, I actually had to take a short side-track last night and farm some more $$ to pay for cap sigs. Now this is where things become glaringly apparent: In the 3 Vaettir runs I did with a solo sin, I gathered about 15 golds, several rare crafting mats, and a buttload of other random white, blue, etc. Overall, from the 30 mins or so I spent there, I netted about 15k after selling, and I might mention, that was selling to a merchant.

No sane person could state that there is not a problem poking it's head up right there with the time vs rewards. In all honesty, my reward for somewhere around 4 days work so far on these titles, is the fun I've had running around, seeing places I've not visited in quite some time. However, that being said, even that fun is starting to blur into boredom, and certainly is not paying for itself in even the slightest measure.

Had I spent the same amount of time ecto farming, I would probably have made at least 100 ecto. There is a pretty damn big reason right there for the profit minded to never ever set foot out of ToPK or the UW by my reckoning. However, this isn't just about me, so feel free to pick through this post and make of it what you will.

Turbo.

The fact is, is that Guild Wars was never meant to be a game about farming phat lewt, and isn't designed at all around getting phat lewt.

If you are tired of the gameplay, expecting phat lewt to fill the void is just going to leave you full of disappointment.

and lololol@ "You also said that nothing in the game is rewarding or fun so lets delete it and close the servers right ? no dude."...I'm not sure if you have a reading comprehension disability or what, but it was Failban who said the game isn't fun.

I would, and do.

When I log on once or twice a week and do a dungeon with my guild, I usually give all of my loot and gold to a guildy, because I simply don't care.

In fact, I gave a guildy a req9 eaglecrest axe the other day because I simply don't care about loot.

Funny you said that when you didnt get a word i said. Proof :

No one said GW is or was meant to be about farming ... and rewards have nothing to do with farming but after all your posts i think you wont get it , not even in 100 years.
No one said that is tired of the game play so they want more rewards to play again , no one expects rewards to fill any void because theres none but you still act like someone did say that stuff ..... guess words are cheap huh ?

Like ...

Yeeeeaaaaaahhh RIGHT !
Like all GW players or ANY RPG player would play a game for 4-5 years without ANY loot and or rewards ..... sure . Where do you live ? in Dream Land , Chocolate Candies St num 4 ? cmon ....

I wouldn't even bother arguing with Yelling Teneb, as you can see, he puts words into others' mouths (claiming I said the game isn't fun, which I never did) and that builds his whole argument around such false premises and "logic" that relies solely on his skewed viewpoint.

You simply can't win an argument with him, unless you drop to his level of putting your fingers in your ears and saying "neener neener" over and over.

@Yelling directly, if you can sit there and tell me that in all the time you've spent playing GW that you have never once put anything in your Xaishen Stash, have no saved crafting mats, and your characters are solely equipped with collector weapons, only then will I believe your claims.

If not, then all your claims are simply hypocritical posturing and serve nothing but to drag down the quality of the thread.

What, you think I'm lying?

lolyou

Yet you do in nearly every post. I'll start listing them.

You're just trying to make the game into something it isn't, which is a loot-based game like Diablo 2, Borderlands, or WoW. Guild Wars isn't loot-based, and never has been. You are bored with the PvE aspect and are trying to fill the void with a make believe loot system in GW when it just isn't there, and was never intended to be.

Damn dude, you're really thick!

Notice that the larger quote references the PvP side in comparison to PvE, the necessity of PvE based material rewards are a replacement for the PvP thrill of the beatdown, in neither case did I claim there was no inherent fun to GW gameplay.

As for the first quote, that's a subjective question. The noob who's played for a week will find everything is new and shiny, but as with ANY toy, someone who's been playing the same game for years will find the lustre is diminished.

By switching up the reward system, it can breathe new life and "shiny" into an area that is largely ignored.

The obviousness of my ideas and posts seems to be largely wasted on you. Are you intentionally trying to be thickheaded?

[edit] As for your dungeon addition edit, many people have stated that the rewards for going through a dungeon are not commensurate with the time taken. If ANet wants to maintain a happy playerbase, then level and reward design needs to be taken into account. Yes, its fun beating down Stone Summit and Dredge and Destroyers the first couple of times, but what keeps players coming back (as is evident with UW/FoW, and others) is the knowledge that they'll be rewarded for their efforts.

You need to learn English I guess. I am not claiming the game isn't inherently fun, it is, but the fun diminishes over time without change. A stagnant game is a dead game, hence why many developers encourage large mod communities to keep the game fresh. With no one at ANet working on "freshening" the game, the only thing that will keep players around who've done everything hundreds of times over is to update the rewards of areas, as that is what keeps them around.

If I have to explain the carrot on a stick idea to you, then I'll just have to concede that there is no helping you.

I lol'd.

So why is ANet concerned over the virtual economy, why are there hundreds of different types of drops, why are there gold farmers, etc., etc.

I'm not the delusional one here, apparently though you are. I'm not trying to add a "make believe" loot system, I'm simply trying to show that by editing the wholly real loot system that's already in place to spice up old areas, that more of the game would be attractive to the playerbase.

Again, if you can't see the obviousness of this fact, whether because you deny human nature or are in fact delusional, then there is no helping you.

I'll post this then as a last resort for you to see reason and sanity.

I will concede defeat and admit you are 100% right if you open up GW, and take screenshots of every pane of your Xunlai Stash, including mats, and your characters' inventories, and post them in this thread showing them completely empty save for collector weapons on your characters.

IF you can't do it, or simply refuse, then we all know you're full of it, and are just trying to be an obstinate hypocrite.

So there's your challenge, since as you've claimed that I'm wrong in my supposition that rewards are what motivate people, the burden of proof is upon you.

I await screenies...

Wait...I'm a hypocrite if I don't live the life of a beggar?

My entire point is that Guild Wars relies on it's game play, not some kind of in-depth loot system. How would me having a non-collector scythe prove this point wrong? I've never farmed X area to get Y skin, and never farmed an area to save up cash for a certain skin. I've bought a few expensive armors of the 15k per piece variety, but I've never farmed an area, and I've never said to myself "Well, I'd like to do X mission, but the rewards just aren't worth it". I do an area that I feel like doing, or I help a guildy finish a campaign or HM vanquish.

The "loot-system" has never once effected my choice of what to do in Guild Wars...I actually struggle to fathom the thought process of people whom are effected by the gold value of doing a place.

1. Create new character
2. Move all mats + inventory in storage on new char
3. Put all inventories of other chars in storage
4. Take screenies of chars' inventories
5. Take inventories back, take screenie of storage
6. Put all stuff on new char back on storage, go to log-out, delete new char, take screenie.

SUCCESS!!!

(not that it matters, anyway)

Personally I used to want rare items way back in the day, but realized I only wanted them due to envy. Now I just run with an FDS and Tall Shield in FoW armor in the Int. districts.

drop ↑ = NM play (why play HM if u can get things if NM?) = NM/HM merge = even more OP game play as the current builds allow u to SC through anything in NM.

Thats right! Not only for dungeons. A map that takes more than 1 hour to reach just to get to the place where you will explore further to find bosses bosses should have a good random yellow/green drop at the end. Not consumed by hero's/henchmen, but for every player. Otherwise its not worth the effort.

True, but I don't agree with your experience statement: XP is the only thing in this game which is CHEAP! You get XP everywhere. What we want is GOLD lol! Or valuable items. THAT makes it worth to replay areas or, even better, explore the world if higher rewards can be found in every far away spot...

Well, ANet, and probably all pychological study disagrees with your argument, seeing as how everything I've read tells that humans are primarily affected in their behaviour by two things, fear and reward.

If this were not true, then game designers like ANet wouldn't have to introduce titles, such as Guardian and Vanquisher that rewards players for playing in HM. If everyone thought as you did, they would just replay the same areas/missions for fun.

The same can be said of the Zaishen Mission/Bounty system. Heck, even prestige armor skins are a reward for extended play, since to get the materials you NEED to play longer than a couple hours a week, which many journals say is the extent to which people should play video games anyways.

Look, I'm not debating what YOU should do or have done or like to do. This isn't about your preferences or pet peeves. The idea to balance the rewards in the game is for the playerbase at large, who ARE motivated by rewards.

I mean, why even respond to the negative? If you're completely unmotivated by rewards, then balancing rewards has zero effect on your gameplay, assuming you also play with like minded individuals. But, if you are even slightly motivated by rewards, and honestly admit that the state of the game has gone way downhill, especially considering that the playerbase is focused into high reward areas, then a change such as this can only be a good thing!

So I guess I don't understand why you're so vehemently opposed to something that is good for everyone, even you? Is it a bad thing to have barren outposts populated again? I don't think so. I'll never understand why some people would be so adamantly against something that serves their own best self interest, and that of the population at large.

i'll post the whole thread topic in one sentence. Guild Wars needs more incentives for gameplay such as rewards and dropping the loot-scaling. There.

That's a lot of typing to just call me a liar.

I'll respond to your last post. If ANet could magically hit a button, and everything was perfect? Yeah, it would be great. However, there's far more important things that I care about than making Maguuma drop ectos.

As for barren outposts being repopulated? You are just absolutely naive if you think that is even remotely true.