Dervish Update
aspi
Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
If the skill were first linked to mysticism, this would be a good change. But if it wasn't, then assassins and warriors would once again get more use out of it. I have no problem with that, same as critical agility. Would be fair to make the derv the scythe master again.
The one problem with this line of thinking is that the scythe was originally designed to be intimately linked to enchantment juggling.
NapTooN
I don't know if the "AoE" nature of the scythe is the reason why other classes abuse it, but if it is, just do the following:
Turn the scythe into a weapon that normally only hits 1 enemy, then add this to Mysticism:
"For every 3rd Rank in Mysticism, you hit 1 additional foe with your scythe".
So all the people that say: "I don't want to use many points in Mysticism to play my Dervish" would only need Rank 6 (not that much) in Mysticism to get the old hit-3-enemies-scythe from before, people that invest up to 15 Ranks, can hit up to 6 enemies.
I like the idea of the reapplication of Enchantments but i would change it a bit to keep possible abuse as small as possible. My full Mysticism text would be the following: (old text about Energy and Health gain [maybe a bit improved as well]) For every 3rd Rank in Mysticism, you hit 1 additional foe with your scythe. If a Dervish-Enchantment on you is removed by another skill, it has a 5% (+3% for each Rank in Mysticism) chance of being reapplied for it's initial energy cost.
With Mysticism 15 you would have a 50% chance of a reapplication if your Dervish-Enchantment was stripped or removed by a Scythe attack or other Dervish-Skills. I'm not sure about the energy cost part, but i think it's the only way to prevent this mechanic from abuse.
Turn the scythe into a weapon that normally only hits 1 enemy, then add this to Mysticism:
"For every 3rd Rank in Mysticism, you hit 1 additional foe with your scythe".
So all the people that say: "I don't want to use many points in Mysticism to play my Dervish" would only need Rank 6 (not that much) in Mysticism to get the old hit-3-enemies-scythe from before, people that invest up to 15 Ranks, can hit up to 6 enemies.
I like the idea of the reapplication of Enchantments but i would change it a bit to keep possible abuse as small as possible. My full Mysticism text would be the following: (old text about Energy and Health gain [maybe a bit improved as well]) For every 3rd Rank in Mysticism, you hit 1 additional foe with your scythe. If a Dervish-Enchantment on you is removed by another skill, it has a 5% (+3% for each Rank in Mysticism) chance of being reapplied for it's initial energy cost.
With Mysticism 15 you would have a 50% chance of a reapplication if your Dervish-Enchantment was stripped or removed by a Scythe attack or other Dervish-Skills. I'm not sure about the energy cost part, but i think it's the only way to prevent this mechanic from abuse.
fr.aodhan
Quote:
Originally Posted by NapTooN
If a Dervish-Enchantment on you is removed by another skill, it has a 5% (+3% for each Rank in Mysticism) chance of being reapplied for it's initial energy cost.
With Mysticism 15 you would have a 50% chance of a reapplication if your Dervish-Enchantment was stripped or removed by a Scythe attack or other Dervish-Skills. I'm not sure about the energy cost part, but i think it's the only way to prevent this mechanic from abuse. I considered a mechanic like this and the numbers are ridiculous. Consider that many enchantments have damage on the front and end. You will get very powerful spikes from the Dervish which may, in fact, not stop spiking for a much longer time than intended.
For fun, consider Mystic Sandstorm on a bar with the PvE enchantments (which will end up doing a lot of armor-ignoring damage and reset the Sandstorm) and Pious Renewal, which will mitigate the energy loss.
With Mysticism 15 you would have a 50% chance of a reapplication if your Dervish-Enchantment was stripped or removed by a Scythe attack or other Dervish-Skills. I'm not sure about the energy cost part, but i think it's the only way to prevent this mechanic from abuse. I considered a mechanic like this and the numbers are ridiculous. Consider that many enchantments have damage on the front and end. You will get very powerful spikes from the Dervish which may, in fact, not stop spiking for a much longer time than intended.
For fun, consider Mystic Sandstorm on a bar with the PvE enchantments (which will end up doing a lot of armor-ignoring damage and reset the Sandstorm) and Pious Renewal, which will mitigate the energy loss.
NapTooN
Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Quote: Originally Posted by fr.aodhan
I considered a mechanic like this and the numbers are ridiculous. Consider that many enchantments have damage on the front and end. You will get very powerful spikes from the Dervish which may, in fact, not stop spiking for a much longer time than intended.
For fun, consider Mystic Sandstorm on a bar with the PvE enchantments (which will end up doing a lot of armor-ignoring damage and reset the Sandstorm) and Pious Renewal, which will mitigate the energy loss. It was just a rough idea of course, balancing is not my job
. Easy way to stop this from happening: change it to "When a Dervish-Enchantment is removed from you by an enemy, it has a X% chance of reapplication..." If you do it like that, you can even increase the numbers so you have 100% at Myst 15.
For fun, consider Mystic Sandstorm on a bar with the PvE enchantments (which will end up doing a lot of armor-ignoring damage and reset the Sandstorm) and Pious Renewal, which will mitigate the energy loss. It was just a rough idea of course, balancing is not my job
. Easy way to stop this from happening: change it to "When a Dervish-Enchantment is removed from you by an enemy, it has a X% chance of reapplication..." If you do it like that, you can even increase the numbers so you have 100% at Myst 15.
reaper with no name
Quote:
Originally Posted by NapTooN
It was just a rough idea of course, balancing is not my job . Easy way to stop this from happening: change it to "When a Dervish-Enchantment is removed from you by an enemy, it has a X% chance of reapplication..." If you do it like that, you can even increase the numbers so you have 100% at Myst 15.
Suggested that one too.
. Easy way to stop this from happening: change it to "When a Dervish-Enchantment is removed from you by an enemy, it has a X% chance of reapplication..." If you do it like that, you can even increase the numbers so you have 100% at Myst 15.
Suggested that one too.
b0nkuz
i actually quite enjoy playing my derv and with a decent scythe build it does plenty of damage. i would say enchant juggling is where the update is most needed.
i however do not like the way assassins and wars can do more damage with a scythe. this is due to there being problems with those classes not the derv. i think changes like warriors endurance endurance to only effect warrior attack skills and way of the master being either nerfed or just plain removed from the game.
wars have armor penetration and 3 primary weapons, seriously gtfo of our weapon.
assassins have crits because daggers do less damage, why they can apply it so well to other weapons is beyond me
i would point out some of these points have already been raised but i think they need restating
i however do not like the way assassins and wars can do more damage with a scythe. this is due to there being problems with those classes not the derv. i think changes like warriors endurance endurance to only effect warrior attack skills and way of the master being either nerfed or just plain removed from the game.
wars have armor penetration and 3 primary weapons, seriously gtfo of our weapon.
assassins have crits because daggers do less damage, why they can apply it so well to other weapons is beyond me
i would point out some of these points have already been raised but i think they need restating
saint666
nah man, it's scythes that are broken. The fact that a broken class like the Dervish can get good dps off it is a problem, the scythe is so broken even eles/necros swinging that thing can get good dps off it. Spear chucking warrior/bow using sins? They are kinda crappy if you asked me, way inferior to their primary weapons. You can literally auto swing someone/three to death with a scythe.
Sankt Hallvard
D H U U U M
for me all what i wish is having a good attack skils that deal alot of damge///dhuum avatar and some skills that will allow the derv to do speed clears like sf ^^
also its good to make derv apply death plenty with some skills
also its good to make derv apply death plenty with some skills
b0nkuz
Its not scythes that are broken and even though the dervish is not as good as it perhaps could be, they are not broken. The things that are broken are the absurd critical rate of scythe sins coupled with the massive energy gain they get from it.
Also what is broken is zealous vow and warriors endurance. Both give way too much energy when coupled with a scythes aoe abilities. Zealous vow definitely needs a change but if it isnt, it should be moved to mysticism so every class cant just run around with a scythe and kill every one.
The fact that all melee weapons can kill so quickly is the insane buffs that they receive. soh is clearly op which is shown by the huge damage difference it has with it pvp counterpart. You can the still buff that further with aohm(only for scythes) or ootv/oop and then can buff further with weapons spells such as splinter or gdw. The fact that so much synergy is possible is the problem. All of the buffs put together do more damage than then scythe.
Also what is broken is zealous vow and warriors endurance. Both give way too much energy when coupled with a scythes aoe abilities. Zealous vow definitely needs a change but if it isnt, it should be moved to mysticism so every class cant just run around with a scythe and kill every one.
The fact that all melee weapons can kill so quickly is the insane buffs that they receive. soh is clearly op which is shown by the huge damage difference it has with it pvp counterpart. You can the still buff that further with aohm(only for scythes) or ootv/oop and then can buff further with weapons spells such as splinter or gdw. The fact that so much synergy is possible is the problem. All of the buffs put together do more damage than then scythe.
saint666
If it's not scythes that are broken, explain to me why it's the only weapon that can hit over 100 dmg from auto attacking and on multiple enemies, that's only from Asuran scan and AoHM. Scythes are the only weapon where skill damage actually play second fiddle to weapon damage. You gotta ask why other crit/WE builds are inferior compared to crit/WE scythe, scythes are the only good weapons, others suck? 41 damage on 3 targets = 123 damage on auto swing, what other weapon can do that. Don't even compare crit sword/WE sword with crit scythe/WE scythe.
For scythes, lower max, higher min damage, and chance of hitting 2 adjacent foes based on Scythe Mastery rank.
For scythes, lower max, higher min damage, and chance of hitting 2 adjacent foes based on Scythe Mastery rank.
Sankt Hallvard
If the enemy balls up for the scythe aoe effect they deserve to be punished imo.
b0nkuz
most of the time you dont get three targets balled up, it usually just one or two but if you can always get three gratz. You should also take into effect the added armor of hm. you wont hit 41 unless you crit with auto swings against a 80al foe which is mostly what hm is. single target. yes it is more than other weapons but only because of its aoe nature. if you run a decent sword build on war or daggers on sin you will get a similar single person dps as a scythe dervish
saint666
It must just be me, I can hit 50s on 80 al dummy, 61 on crit. I'm hitting 100s with auto swings on 80al dummy non crit, with just AoHM and asuran scan. Dagger crits for 24 on 80al, sword crits for 31 on crit. Non crit scythe damage is higher than crit damage for most weapons. Sword/dagger builds are skill/energy intensive intensive, if you are not spamming attacks you are not doing damage. Daggers get punished by blinds/blocks especially hard because of chain mechanics. With scythes auto swing for the win. It's the skills for daggers/swords that make them good, while scythes are good because the are scythes. With daggers you need death blossom, with WE sword you need power attack if you want good dps, with scythe you can just auto attack ftw. You can spam protectors strike with 0 strength and get good dps off it, try that with daggers or sword. The absurd max damage is the main reason why the scythe is broken. You can crit all day on a sword for 31 damage it's not all that impressive at all, 14ap on an 17 damage isn't impressive either, that's why daggerwars/swordsins are relatively even, even daggerrangers come close, most of their damage come from their skills and the one with the runes wins. Really what is the problem with daggerwars/swordsins, none, but only with scythes?
The fact is that, you can hit multiple enemies at the same time, but most people just don't bother to, cause enemies die too fast anyways, you have the choice. You have an aoe attack by just equipping a scythe without even wasting a slot. Not saying scythes shouldn't hit multiple enemies, that's it's flavour, but not without investment. The chance should scale with Scythe Mastery, just like Dagger.
The fact is that, you can hit multiple enemies at the same time, but most people just don't bother to, cause enemies die too fast anyways, you have the choice. You have an aoe attack by just equipping a scythe without even wasting a slot. Not saying scythes shouldn't hit multiple enemies, that's it's flavour, but not without investment. The chance should scale with Scythe Mastery, just like Dagger.
Xenomortis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
Scythes are not broken because without PvE skills, scythe dps is in line with other weapons.
Without any skills, the weapon with the highest damage potential in the game hits AoE.
Yeah, that's pretty broken already.
That doesn't mean it's necessarily overpowered.
Yeah, that's pretty broken already.
That doesn't mean it's necessarily overpowered.
dasmitchies
Dervish update will never come. Scythes are not broken. They are simply the best melee weapon in the game for PVE due to the mechanics of enemy AI. Nerfing Scythes doesn't make dervishes more playable. Enchantment juggling was a failure because it is too Energy and time intensive. I like Dervish armors and the attack animations are good but the class was poorly thought out at inception due to Anets fear of players having uber-power as with Sins and Rits. PVE balancing of any class is ridiculous because my PVE doesn't affect yours. And here we are arguing over vaporware again.....
saint666
yes, scythes are the best melee weapons in the game, they leave other melee weapons in the dust. But isn't it due of it's high damage and aoe, what does monster AI have to do with it. Lowering scythes max damage and raising it's min damage doesn't effect dervishes at all, they will still get the same average damage. All it does is bring the potential damage of different classes closer. It would also make scythes more reliant on skill damage rather than just weapon damage, which I think is a good direction.
Rites
lmao
how about GW being redone so that you can't use any weapons EXCEPT for weapons from your primaries? geez
one of the best things about GW in my opinion was its openness as far as character weapons, which of course causes skill abuse by peeps that know how to think.
seriously the only way to stop weapon skill abuse and make it so that an assassin primary can't outdo a warrior or a derv with their own weapons is to lock weapon choices per primary class. of course if ANet decided to do this, there would be even more QQ.
how about GW being redone so that you can't use any weapons EXCEPT for weapons from your primaries? geez
one of the best things about GW in my opinion was its openness as far as character weapons, which of course causes skill abuse by peeps that know how to think.
seriously the only way to stop weapon skill abuse and make it so that an assassin primary can't outdo a warrior or a derv with their own weapons is to lock weapon choices per primary class. of course if ANet decided to do this, there would be even more QQ.
NapTooN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rites
lmao
how about GW being redone so that you can't use any weapons EXCEPT for weapons from your primaries? geez
one of the best things about GW in my opinion was its openness as far as character weapons, which of course causes skill abuse by peeps that know how to think.
seriously the only way to stop weapon skill abuse and make it so that an assassin primary can't outdo a warrior or a derv with their own weapons is to lock weapon choices per primary class. of course if ANet decided to do this, there would be even more QQ. Great Idea, would turn Illusionary Weaponry into the worst Elite Skill in the game, because the profession it belongs to can't use melee weapons.
how about GW being redone so that you can't use any weapons EXCEPT for weapons from your primaries? geez
one of the best things about GW in my opinion was its openness as far as character weapons, which of course causes skill abuse by peeps that know how to think.
seriously the only way to stop weapon skill abuse and make it so that an assassin primary can't outdo a warrior or a derv with their own weapons is to lock weapon choices per primary class. of course if ANet decided to do this, there would be even more QQ. Great Idea, would turn Illusionary Weaponry into the worst Elite Skill in the game, because the profession it belongs to can't use melee weapons.
Rites
Quote:
Originally Posted by NapTooN
Great Idea, would turn Illusionary Weaponry into the worst Elite Skill in the game, because the profession it belongs to can't use melee weapons.
i take it you don't know how to comprehend very well?
read my WHOLE post again and TRY to understand what I put up there
i take it you don't know how to comprehend very well?
read my WHOLE post again and TRY to understand what I put up there
Xenomortis
Quote:
Originally Posted by saint666
100%/16=6.25% per rank
At rank 12 you get 75%, so dervishes would have 25% over other classes, at least I think it's not too shabby. I was thinking 19 min-31 max, which is comparable to Hammers, I can't say I've seen too many people using hammers. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Damag...#Weapon_Damage
Rank already plays a factor in weapon damage. The increase however drops off with ranks above 12.
At rank 12 you get 75%, so dervishes would have 25% over other classes, at least I think it's not too shabby. I was thinking 19 min-31 max, which is comparable to Hammers, I can't say I've seen too many people using hammers. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Damag...#Weapon_Damage
Rank already plays a factor in weapon damage. The increase however drops off with ranks above 12.
Andrew Almond
anet should introduce more derv skills, perhaps avatar of dhuum or maybe an elite scythe attack that can shadowstep .bsides arent the gods suppose to be enchanting these fellas? give them more enchant options in mysticism so other classes dont abuse them, maybe a summon saltspray in the mysticism class to make up for any slack
.bsides arent the gods suppose to be enchanting these fellas? give them more enchant options in mysticism so other classes dont abuse them, maybe a summon saltspray in the mysticism class to make up for any slack
Bandwagon
Random Namos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandwagon
paragons are gonna have a rework to, so if they did add new skills could be adding to paragon as well later on.
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"These will NOT include major changes to the Dervish (and in particular scythes), non-“Imbagon” Paragons, and the smiting line for the Monk. All of those are things we’ve been considering for major updates of their own."
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...#Mesmer_in_PvE not saying i think is gonna happen, just that it could without being unfair to paragons... least in the long run. But tbf if more skills is what it takes to improve the dervish the way they want, i don't see why they wouldn't derv's and para's already have an "unfairly" small skill pool. Archangel.Arcanis
No more classes are getting an overhaul like Derv or Mes. John said that on his talk page a few days ago. They have multiple releases this month that he has talked about and those will likely be the Derv. preview & update as well as another possible update or preview for something like Embark beach.
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