Dervish Update

Touching staple skills that has been in use for ages will cause a lot more QQing than just burying the Dervish. If the amount of posts in each section is a representation of anything. WoTM is the same as the first day it was introduced doing what it was intended to do, after all this time it's now suddenly "Power Creep" because people finally realized how poorly designed dervishes were? I don't care how many people will complain. I don't care about other player's attitudes immediately after an update. I care about the health of the game.
Way of the Master is a broken skill - it should never have been introduced into the game. What it's intended to do (boost crit rates on a Sin for other weapons) is part of the reason why the Assassin gets stupid numbers out of a Scythe. The Assassin already exceeds the Derv without it from Critical Strikes alone. Just because a skill has been around a long time doesn't mean it's not stupid or broken.
Besides, WotM is not a staple skill. One commonly used Assassin build uses it and it's that particular build that's problematic for the Dervish and it's that build that needs to be hit.

The PvE skills are largely irrelevant in this matter. The only unfair one in this argument is Critical Agility and I'm not recommending touching that.

I want to clarify something.
My current stance on this is that nothing should really be changed. Certainly the Dervish should not be buffed at this point.
If you want to argue that the Dervish is rendered useless by the Assassin and Warrior being able to get more out of Scythes, then fine (I'd be inclined to agree, particularly the Assassin), my follow-up to that is to nerf those two.
The Dervish does not need to be buffed to be given an advantage. Beyond that there is not much more you can do short of a complete rebuild. Even then, were that even possible at this stage, you would encounter problems since the game is oversaturated with professions

Buff the dervish at the expense of warriors and assassins really? It's better to kill and bury the dervish instead. If we take a poll on this I'm sure most people would agree. As a profession, the Dervish doesn't fit into the game properly. Its concept was based on previous gimmicks and it lacked a good design direction.
In the end, things would have been better had the Dervish never seen the light of day.

But, since people are now crying that a broken, poorly designed profession is inferior to the better ones (as a result of bad design) and want to see some improvements, then you want to make changes.
Since Way of the Master is also a broken skill and is used solely to abuse weapons from secondaries (and almost exclusively the scythe), killing it isn't a bad thing.
Warrior's Endurance is an energy engine. It's an extremely powerful energy engine for a profession with strong energy limitations. Energy is a valuable resource for a Warrior. Some skills are only held in check by having an energy cost associated with them. Using Warrior's Endurance has little drawback to a Warrior for large gains and hence, is detrimental. Since it's also almost solely used for using a Scythe (and perhaps some Axe builds), I would applaud a reversion to this skill.

The game got to its current position as a result of power creep. Simply buffing the Dervish with little regard for the consequences and without examining the effect of other professions will not fix anything.

Edit:
I should point out that after if any changes to the Dervish were to be made to bring their power level up to the others, then Zealous Vow would also need hitting in a similar manner to Warrior's Endurance.

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

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05 Sep 2010 at 04:27 - 245

You know, I was about to mention that last part myself.

saint666

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05 Sep 2010 at 05:27 - 246

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post

As a profession, the Dervish doesn't fit into the game properly. Its concept was based on previous gimmicks and it lacked a good design direction.
In the end, things would have been better had the Dervish never seen the light of day.

But, since people are now crying that a broken, poorly designed profession is inferior to the better ones (as a result of bad design) and want to see some improvements, then you want to make changes.
Since Way of the Master is also a broken skill and is used solely to abuse weapons from secondaries (and almost exclusively the scythe), killing it isn't a bad thing.
Warrior's Endurance is an energy engine. It's an extremely powerful energy engine for a profession with strong energy limitations. Energy is a valuable resource for a Warrior. Some skills are only held in check by having an energy cost associated with them. Using Warrior's Endurance has little drawback to a Warrior for large gains and hence, is detrimental. Since it's also almost solely used for using a Scythe (and perhaps some Axe builds), I would applaud a reversion to this skill.

The game got to its current position as a result of power creep. Simply buffing the Dervish with little regard for the consequences and without examining the effect of other professions will not fix anything.

Edit:
I should point out that after if any changes to the Dervish were to be made to bring their power level up to the others, then Zealous Vow would also need hitting in a similar manner to Warrior's Endurance. Touching staple skills that has been in use for ages will cause a lot more QQing than just burying the Dervish. If the amount of posts in each section is a representation of anything. WoTM is the same as the first day it was introduced doing what it was intended to do, after all this time it's now suddenly "Power Creep" because people finally realized how poorly designed dervishes were? The introduction of PvE skills was the real shift in the PvE meta. The boat has already long sailed on complaining about power creep, it's pretty clear the direction of the game is taking with the Ritualist and Mesmer updates. Any class that can't keep up with the new standard is under powered, note the ele. WE was a nice change for warriors to adapt to the changing meta along with other changes that kept it a relevant class, unlike some other class. WE/WoTM allows for a lot of build variations/adaptability as well as replayability for these old classes. You now deemed these "power creep" because a poorly designed class can't keep up with the meta. Would anyone think anything of it if dervishes didn't exist, the game is actually perfectly fine as is without the dervish, warriors and assassins are the meta for melee by design not power creep. The dervish about 30 to 40 dps underpowered, is it really rocket science to solve this?

Xenomortis

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05 Sep 2010 at 10:04 - 247

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

saint666

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05 Sep 2010 at 19:17 - 248

The PvE skills are largely irrelevant in this matter. The only unfair one in this argument is Critical Agility and I'm not recommending touching that. CA serves as a maintainable IAS for the assassin, which made sense because it's the only martial class that didn't have any IAS, the armor doesn't even matter now a days with the amount of prot available. It makes the assassin attack faster and increases it's over all dps. The huge numbers you see are the result of asuran scan, BuH, AoHM and the % damage multiplier that they bring. The % is multiplicative not additive.

I don't care how many people will complain. I don't care about other player's attitudes immediately after an update. I care about the health of the game.

No1 one is really complaining about assassins or warriors, except for dervishes, meaning they are fine.

Quote: Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post

Way of the Master is a broken skill - it should never have been introduced into the game. What it's intended to do (boost crit rates on a Sin for other weapons) is part of the reason why the Assassin gets stupid numbers out of a Scythe. The Assassin already exceeds the Derv without it from Critical Strikes alone. Just because a skill has been around a long time doesn't mean it's not stupid or broken. 1 skill>than the dervish? Do you realize WE make warriors just about as good as assassins in dagger spamming, does that make the assassin irrelevant? WoTM was introduced to encourage build experimentation and cross class builds. Like how everyone has necro healers, they're not even meant to heal not to mention with an unlimited supply of energy, this gave birth to a chain of gimmick triple necro builds or even 2 man, 3 man necroways. You know what's good for the health of them game, not a class that can play every single role in the game.

Quote: Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post

Besides, WotM is not a staple skill. One commonly used Assassin build uses it and it's that particular build that's problematic for the Dervish and it's that build that needs to be hit. WoTM is the staple skill in all cross class builds, crit spear, barrage, axe, sword, hammer, scythe. No1 cares except for the dervish, why because it's the only class that sucks with it's own weapon in the first place. Just like WE give warrior access not only to it's own energy based attacks but also dagger and scythe attacks, it's also only the dervish that complains about this one. The only place were I'd take another weapon over daggers is where range is needed. Dervish are weak because they are poorly designed. Do warriors make assassins suck at what it does? do assassins make warriors, rangers and paras suck at what they do?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I want to clarify something.
My current stance on this is that nothing should really be changed. Certainly the Dervish should not be buffed at this point.
If you want to argue that the Dervish is rendered useless by the Assassin and Warrior being able to get more out of Scythes, then fine (I'd be inclined to agree, particularly the Assassin), my follow-up to that is to nerf those two.
The Dervish does not need to be buffed to be given an advantage. Beyond that there is not much more you can do short of a complete rebuild. Even then, were that even possible at this stage, you would encounter problems since the game is oversaturated with professions Okay, the update is about bringing the dervish up to the assassin and warrior's level not the other way around, a least that's how it comes off. Anet seems to think the dervish needs a buff, it's not my idea. Although I do like the idea of having another great melee class.

Xenomortis

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05 Sep 2010 at 19:57 - 249

No1 one is really complaining about assassins or warriors, except for dervishes, meaning they are fine.

They are ridiculously strong.

Quote:

CA serves as a maintainable IAS for the assassin, which made sense because it's the only martial class that didn't have any IAS, the armor doesn't even matter now a days with the amount of prot available. It makes the assassin attack faster and increases it's over all dps. The huge numbers you see are the result of asuran scan, BuH, AoHM and the % damage multiplier that they bring. The % is multiplicative not additive. As I said, I don't think CA needs touching. But you understand it's overpowered, yes? The armour does matter to an extent - it can turn a squishy character to something almost as durable as the Warrior. The downside is that it's usually the first thing to be stripped making it unreliable for this purpose.

I know what the huge numbers associated with the Scythe Sin are a result of. I also know that whatever numbers the Sin throws out, the Derv can too (apart from, perhaps, when Malicious Strike is used). The reason why the Sin has more raw power is purely due to the fact the Sin throws out more crits, meaning they hit at the top end of the huge damage range on a scythe more often than the Derv.

1 skill>than the dervish? Do you realize WE make warriors just about as good as assassins in dagger spamming, does that make the assassin irrelevant?

And yet I've never seen a WE Dagger Warrior. The reasons for this are simple.
It's not the best thing a Warrior can do and it doesn't beat the Sin. Sure a Warrior would get through the Jagged-Fox-DB chain just as fast and could do almost as much damage with it, but WE doesn't match Critical Strikes and even with Zealous Daggers, energy won't be as solid. And he's burned away his elite without brining much else useful.
The problem here is that the Warrior doesn't bring anything really useful to Assassin builds that Sin's don't already have. However scythes lend themselves to Assassins very well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

WoTM is the staple skill in all cross class builds, crit spear, barrage, axe, sword, hammer, scythe. No1 cares except for the dervish, why because it's the only class that sucks with it's own weapon in the first place. Just like WE give warrior access not only to it's own energy based attacks but also dagger and scythe attacks, it's also only the dervish that complains about this one. The only place were I'd take another weapon over daggers is where range is needed. Dervish are weak because they are poorly designed. Do warriors make assassins suck at what it does? do assassins make warriors, rangers and paras suck at what they do? Right, here's the thing.
Assassins have the highest chance to crit of all the physicals. They will eke out more DPS autoattacking with a bow than a Ranger would, then a Para would with a Spear, etc. They have this property without using any skills. On it's own, I think that's fine. They lose out on the other things the other professions already have in exchange for better base firepower.
However, skills like Critical Eye and WotM in particular push this way over the top.
This isn't a problem for Paragons, because Paragons don't make their living just outright killing things with the weapon in their hand, Dervishes do. Rangers suffer different problems and Sins don't bother with a bow because crits from a bow aren't amazing, but crits from a Scythe are.
Sins with the Warrior weapons are largely the same, with crits from a sword and axe not really worth bothering about and with the hammer potentially being in the same boat as the Scythe. However, the innate property of Strength does lend itself towards weapon use slightly (more with the Hammer and Scythe than with Daggers or Swords) and Strength has enough in it skill-wise to make Warriors desirable.

saint666

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05 Sep 2010 at 22:33 - 250

They are ridiculously strong.

Like rits, mesmers and necros? please nerf them because they make the Ele look like a pansy. Especially the necro, unlimited energy gain for doing nothing, what caster role can't it fill? The are many powerful classes in the game if want to start counting. The standard measured these days are based on builds of these classes. Classes that meet this standard, they are pretty even, classes that don't are handicapped.

Quote:

As I said, I don't think CA needs touching. But you understand it's overpowered, yes? The armour does matter to an extent - it can turn a squishy character to something almost as durable as the Warrior. The downside is that it's usually the first thing to be stripped making it unreliable for this purpose.

I know what the huge numbers associated with the Scythe Sin are a result of. I also know that whatever numbers the Sin throws out, the Derv can too (apart from, perhaps, when Malicious Strike is used). The reason why the Sin has more raw power is purely due to the fact the Sin throws out more crits, meaning they hit at the top end of the huge damage range on a scythe more often than the Derv. Sin is a crit machine, that was the design of the class, every addition they've added to it is based on that. Unlike the dervish it's a finished and working design, maybe they should of just left it half done like the dervish? The dervish was designed to be an enchantment cycling machine, but it looks like they gave up on the class halfway before it was done. Let's see if this update can complete this class this time around. You do understand what multiplicative rather than additive means right, the dps difference might be 10 to 15 to begin with, but after Asuran Scan, AoHM, BuH it becomes 30 to 40.

I use daggers on my warrior, the dps is pretty close to scythe anyways, but chains are easier to mess up than no brainer scythe spam. And you are right at best the warriors can just match what the sin can do because it's a solid class that bring something unique to the table, the same can be said in reverse for these two classes. But we can't say the same thing about dervishes where every class can match them in what it does, because it doesn't bring anything unique(that was supposed to be enchantment juggling but we know how wonderful that is right now). Let me correct you on something, WE can match the energy of a WotA sin easily, it's the higher double strikes and skill damage that makes WotA better. The thing about wars and sins are, although they are both able to use each other skills they cannot do better than what the other class already does. Because of the poor design of the dervish any caster can match the dps a dervish primary can put out, when primary melee classes comes into the picture the the difference is obvious. When a caster can match you in melee dps, maybe that's the first issue that needs to be addressed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Right, here's the thing.
Assassins have the highest chance to crit of all the physicals. They will eke out more DPS autoattacking with a bow than a Ranger would, then a Para would with a Spear, etc. They have this property without using any skills. On it's own, I think that's fine. They lose out on the other things the other professions already have in exchange for better base firepower.
However, skills like Critical Eye and WotM in particular push this way over the top.

This isn't a problem for Paragons, because Paragons don't make their living just outright killing things with the weapon in their hand, Dervishes do. Rangers suffer different problems and Sins don't bother with a bow because crits from a bow aren't amazing, but crits from a Scythe are.
Sins with the Warrior weapons are largely the same, with crits from a sword and axe not really worth bothering about and with the hammer potentially being in the same boat as the Scythe. However, the innate property of Strength does lend itself towards weapon use slightly (more with the Hammer and Scythe than with Daggers or Swords) and Strength has enough in it skill-wise to make Warriors desirable. Sins don't bother with bows, because they don't have access to splinter weapon or conjure skill that rangers have access to, which eclipses what ever criticals can do for an assassin, along with the innate energy reduction of skills that allows the use of skills that would make it hard even for an assassin to swallow. The main problem for rangers is that it relies on secondaries for damage too much because of the limitations put on it for pvp, and that Mesmers(mesmer's fault?) are better than them in interruption and condition spreading. What the dervish was supposed to have doesn't work, so that left him with nothing unique that allows it to compete with other classes. Mysticism, has nothing great to offer the dervish unlike what CS, STR, SR, EXP, ES, DF, SP has to offer.

fr.aodhan

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Join Date: Aug 2010

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05 Sep 2010 at 22:57 - 251

They are ridiculously strong.

I'm glad to see this acknowledged. Instead of viewing them as a manifestation of power creep, players in general seem to be holding up the scythe sin as nominal and the measure for all future updates. There is plenty to fix in the Dervish without making it emulate a broken build from another class. If the Assassin didn't exist, there are problems in the Dervish class that could be fixed. The existence of the Assassin doesn't change this; it just means that the developers have other considerations.

This isn't a problem for Paragons, because Paragons don't make their living just outright killing things with the weapon in their hand, Dervishes do. Rangers suffer different problems and Sins don't bother with a bow because crits from a bow aren't amazing, but crits from a Scythe are. This is probably the best analysis of the situation I've seen. This has less to do with the Dervish than the scythe itself. There might be screams aplenty when the Assassin's skills are restricted to the dagger, but I see no reason for that to stop the developers moving in that direction.

Nerf the Assassin. Buff the Dervish. It's not impossible to consider both simultaneously and I don't know why we're coming up with the sort of "you can't do _____ until you _____" rules.

saint666

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05 Sep 2010 at 23:35 - 252

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

Nerf the Assassin. Buff the Dervish. It's not impossible to consider both simultaneously and I don't know why we're coming up with the sort of "you can't do _____ until you _____" rules. You could consider both, you might end up with similar problems or maybe more because you're touching a wider subject than what is needed, having further implications as a result, when people aren't even clear on what they want to do with the dervish.

fr.aodhan

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D/Mo

05 Sep 2010 at 23:44 - 253

You could consider both, you might end up with similar problems or maybe more because you're touching a wider subject more than what is needed with further implications. I'm not sure what this means practically (or grammatically). We shouldn't consider restricting Assassin skills to scythes, etc.?

saint666

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06 Sep 2010 at 01:17 - 254

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

I'm not sure what this means practically (or grammatically). We shouldn't consider restricting Assassin skills to scythes, etc.? Frankly restricting weapons on any class is not the best approach to the issue, should really be considered as a last resort and not first choice. Especially when it's possible to solve the problem without doing so, and destroying the amount of build diversity possible needlessly, and causing even more complains than it fixes. Right now there are no restrictions to weapon usage to all other classes what so ever, there doesn't seem to be a problem. Are classes broken suddenly after touching a scythe, are scythes themselves broken or are dervishes broken in relation to other characters. Maybe a combination of all of them. But the root of the problem is the dervish, everything thing else is just beating around the bush. Assassins are the best with the scythe currently, warriors come close, rangers are quite good with it also. With the assassin gone, the warrior and ranger are still better, you'd go "fixing" those too? Improving mysticism and having skills work together with it would go a long way in fixing the dervish as well as provide a natural limitation on other classes using scythe short of "fixing" other classes.

fr.aodhan

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06 Sep 2010 at 01:37 - 255

Frankly restricting weapons on any class is not the best approach to the issue, should really be considered as a last resort and not first choice. Especially when it's possible to solve the problem without doing so, and destroying the amount of build diversity possible needlessly, and causing even more complains than it fixes. Right now there are no restrictions to weapon usage to all other classes what so ever, there doesn't seem to be a problem.

There are a number of assertions here which warrant examination. First, is it the case that there are no restrictions to weapon uses? The hidden assumption is that we're talking about restricting weapons by class, but we've been talking about restricting weapons by skill, which is well-established in the game. Nobody, as far as I know, is saying that Assassins should have an inherent nerf to scythe usage; what I'm reading is that Assassin skills should work with daggers. This is no more novel or controversial than Spear of Fury being a spear attack.

Second, the idea that such a change would destroy build diversity. This is a little funny to me, as for most of the thread we've heard the idea that Meta Assassin builds make a Dervish carry too high an opportunity cost; i.e. we've heard that the Assassin's use of the scythe decreases build diversity because it marginalizes the Dervish. I'm not convinced that moving the Assassin towards its native weapon would decrease diversity.

Third, that we should measure potential changes by complaints. If we went by the whims of the player base, by this point we would have a single skill that kills everything in the area. To me, it's far more important that an Assassin be a coherent character with a place in the game. The critscythe Assassin is a momentary glitch - if players complain about losing it, it is because they let themselves become too attached to a gimmick.

With the assassin gone, the warrior and ranger are still better, you'd go "fixing" those too? Yes, but without the pejorative quotation marks, and I'd do it in the context of positive changes to the Dervish.

Improving mysticism and having skills work together with it would be a natural limitation on other classes using scythe short of "fixing" other classes. The either-or thinking is a limitation. Both are possible and beneficial in terms of the game as a whole. We've discussed some of the possibilities in this thread and are aware that there would be blowback. Clearly, some of us aren't going to be afraid of it, no matter how many times we're reminded of it.

Xenomortis

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06 Sep 2010 at 01:49 - 256

Nerf the Assassin. Buff the Dervish. It's not impossible to consider both simultaneously and I don't know why we're coming up with the sort of "you can't do _____ until you _____" rules.

I say that to establish and enforce the priority with which they should be considered. Both can be done but if only one can be...

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This is a strawman. Since the roles the different casters were built and try to fill are different, this is not an apt comparison. The Assassin, Warrior and Dervish however, are all trying to fill the same role.

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Sins don't bother with bows, because they don't have access to splinter weapon or conjure skill that rangers have access to, which eclipses what ever criticals can do for an assassin, along with the innate energy reduction of skills that allows the use of skills that would make it hard even for an assassin to swallow. First, forgive me for a small slip-up. I'm so used to H/Hing that I take Splinter Weapon on a hero or two for granted. But Conjure? Well maybe if you're running with H/H or are in a poor PuG but in a decent human team a conjure is likely to be counter-productive.
But, I do disagree that an Assassin would struggles significantly with energy on a bow build, at least compared to the ranger. Barrage costs 5 energy and with a Zealous Bow, the skill can sometimes be essentially free. Sure, some of the skills are 10 energy but these are skills the ranger cannot use whenever he likes (i.e. on recharge) either.

The dervish was designed to be an enchantment cycling machine, but it looks like they gave up on the class halfway before it was done. Let's see if this update can complete this class this time around.

The Dervish is a caster/physical hybrid. It has a collection of caster based skills often revolving around enchantments and a number of physical based skills also often revolving around enchantments. This causes a problem.
The profession lacks direction. The caster based stuff is weak (PBAoE nukes are seldom worth the time, especially when you have a melee weapon already), buffing this won't achieve anything since everything done by these skills is already done much more effectively by the other casters. Since the physical side is more powerful and more desirable, it is this that gets focused on and hence we have another physical profession.
As for the enchantment side of things, that is also problematic. Guild Wars simply could not and cannot support a profession that relies on revolving enchantments. A build depending on a high turnover of enchantments coming from yourself is very time consuming for limited effect. Even if the effect were good, it would still result in a highly unstable power output. This would be fine if there were a support structure that could deal with it, but there isn't.
The other option for enchantments is simply to use longer lasting, more passive enchantments to boost the profession's output (largely what we have now), this makes the profession very much comparable to the Sin and Warrior but with a more fragile output.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666 View Post

You do understand what multiplicative rather than additive means right, the dps difference might be 10 to 15 to begin with, but after Asuran Scan, AoHM, BuH it becomes 30 to 40. This isn't relevant to what I was saying. Yes, I am fully aware how those skills work (AoHM actually works differently to what you implied here). When I said the Derv could match a Sin's numbers, I was referring to individual hits. DPS never entered into it. I acknowledged a Sin is going to deal more DPS (or at least implied) when I said:
Quote: Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post

The reason why the Sin has more raw power is purely due to the fact the Sin throws out more crits, meaning they hit at the top end of the huge damage range on a scythe more often than the Derv. How those skills work just isn't important to the point being made. All it means is that the damage disparity is potentially larger than it otherwise might be were they simply additive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

Mysticism, has nothing great to offer the dervish unlike what CS, STR, SR, EXP, ES, DF, SP has to offer. This is true.
However, fixing this would require quite an investment of time and resources and I do not trust the suggestions on this forum nor do I trust Arena Net to do it right. Since however, fixing this isn't necessary to improving the health of the Dervish, I would look at the other options available.

Because of the poor design of the dervish any caster can match the dps a dervish primary can put out, when primary melee classes comes into the picture the the difference is obvious. When a caster can match you in melee dps, maybe that's the first issue that needs to be addressed. I want to cover this bit last, as I think this the source of our disagreement on the state of the Dervish. Whilst I think we largely agree on the source of the Derv's problems, I think we disagree on the power of the profession.
There is one caster that can compete or possibly exceed the damage output of any of the melee professions. The Necromancer however has to adopt one of two very fragile builds to do this - one of them depends greatly on synergy with physicals in the team and the other relies on minions. The Rit can also probably compete with SoS Spirit spam, but I have not played this extensively enough to be certain (I've hardly run the build).

If however, you are referring to melee builds run by casters, then I, again, strongly disagree.
Again, there is one profession that can match or exceed the damage done by the physicals in this situation and again, it is the Necromancer. It can do this simply because Mark of Pain has such powerful synergy with Hundred Blades and the Necromancer can bring both. It's also incredibly fragile as all gimmick builds are. There's also damage downtime when you're eating MoP's recharge, where you simply hit stuff to try and make it die, only really making a difference when S&M Slash is charged. I argue that no melee focused profession should be able to match the potential DPS achieved here when Mark of Pain goes up, certainly not without having to spec heavily into the caster stuff themselves.
The Ritualist has only Splinter Weapon to really add, Spirit's Strength just isn't worthwhile and the Monk only has Strength of Honor (but is probably the most durable), however both of them will suffer energy problems without making some provisions (the Monk in particular I think). Even if you push and claim that these three beat the Dervish (and I would contest) then I can simply point to the Mesmer - he has nothing to offer to the physicals and will simply be outright inferior, especially for damage.
But here's the big thing; all of those builds are undesirable in a decent team setup. When you build a team you don't need or want such compression since you can bring on a couple of support characters, everything that those three bring and more. Here, the Dervish is still desirable.

saint666

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06 Sep 2010 at 02:48 - 257

I was responding to Xenomortis, which I respectfully disagree with. In game it's really a non issue with cross class builds, crit scythe/barrage, WE daggers/scythe, pet daggers/scythe, even para dagger/scythe and necro healers, ele protters. People seem to like the idea, I don't why either people are making a big deal out of it.

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Second, the idea that such a change would destroy build diversity. This is a little funny to me, as for most of the thread we've heard the idea that Meta Assassin builds make a Dervish carry too high an opportunity cost; i.e. we've heard that the Assassin's use of the scythe decreases build diversity because it marginalizes the Dervish. I'm not convinced that moving the Assassin towards its native weapon would decrease diversity.

Truth is just about any martial class can marginalize the dervish right now. No1 is limiting the dervish from making any builds but the limitations of the dervish itself. The optimal build for assassins are dagger builds, any other build are just build diversity, I am not convinced that scythsins are what limits the build diversity of dervishes.

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Yes, but without the pejorative quotation marks, and I'd do it in the context of positive changes to the Dervish. A cross class project, nice.

Third, that we should measure potential changes by complaints. If we went by the whims of the player base, by this point we would have a single skill that kills everything in the area. To me, it's far more important that an Assassin be a coherent character with a place in the game. The critscythe Assassin is a momentary glitch - if players complain about losing it, it is because they let themselves become too attached to a gimmick. Player feedback is an important part of game update, if I'm not mistaken it helps developers get a general feel of the community, although by no means does it dictate what the developer wants to do. And no, why SF was nerfed was probably due to the amount of complains about it. Assassins do have a coherent place in the game, front line melee dps or tank, it shares that with the warrior. Whether a gimmick becomes meta or not really depends on the community, ER prot and Neroway are definitely gimmicks but it's meta now, maybe that will change, but for now they are meta.

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Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

Yes, but without the pejorative quotation marks, and I'd do it in the context of positive changes to the Dervish.

The either-or thinking is a limitation. Both are possible and beneficial in terms of the game as a whole. We've discussed some of the possibilities in this thread and are aware that there would be blowback. Clearly, some of us aren't going to be afraid of it, no matter how many times we're reminded of it. Who dictates whats better or is positive change for the game. Not you or me, it really depends on what anet wants to do and what they decide to do with the feed back that get.

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

06 Sep 2010 at 03:15 - 258

Just something worth repeating: if you ignore Enduring Scythe and Critscythe, dervishes are not overpowered. In fact, they become one of the most powerful classes in the game. This implies that the dervish on it's own is not underpowered, but that the competition is overpowered. This therefore implies that the optimal solution is to nerf the overpowered.

Realistically, this will not happen, of course (Anet is committed to seeing power creep as a tool instead of an enemy), but that's neither here nor there.

I don't consider Critical Agility overpowered. Yes, it is a maintainable 33% IAS with armor attached, but it also requires a PvE slot to maintain. If you want an overpowered IAS, look no further than Flail. It's only drawback (movement penalty) has no meaning in PvE.

Way of the Master is a horrible, horrible monster that needs to be killed with fire. It's only purpose is to help the assassin abuse it's secondary profession. Secondary professions are supposed to improve the Primary profession, not the reverse.

Making other classes less effective with the scythe will not harm their build diversity any more than they currently harm the dervish's. And unlike them, the dervish is actually supposed to be swinging that thing around.

saint666

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2007

LOL

06 Sep 2010 at 04:55 - 259

Ele, rit, mes and nec have similar roles in rdps, some with additional roles in support. With the exception of the ele, the other 3 classes are quite comparable and interchangeable in what the can bring to the group, they all have great rdps and support. What the ele lacks in offense it makes it up with ER, which is stepping into the boundaries of the monk.

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This is true.
However, fixing this would require quite an investment of time and resources and I do not trust the suggestions on this forum nor do I trust Arena Net to do it right. Since however, fixing this isn't necessary to improving the health of the Dervish, I would look at the other options available. What I'm getting from this is that it's easier and safer do nothing to the dervish but rather to bring the other melee to the dervishes level. Anet would save the most time an effort if it didn't change anything at all.

The other option for enchantments is simply to use longer lasting, more passive enchantments to boost the profession's output (largely what we have now), this makes the profession very much comparable to the Sin and Warrior but with a more fragile output.

This could be an option if enchantment juggling proves too difficult to implement. But really you don't even have to do that if you can lower the damage output of warriors and assassins, maybe rangers too with scythes to dervish levels, you wouldn't even need any changes for the dervish, they'd be fine as they are.

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Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post

First, forgive me for a small slip-up. I'm so used to H/Hing that I take Splinter Weapon on a hero or two for granted. But Conjure? Well maybe if you're running with H/H or are in a poor PuG but in a decent human team a conjure is likely to be counter-productive.
But, I do disagree that an Assassin would struggles significantly with energy on a bow build, at least compared to the ranger. Barrage costs 5 energy and with a Zealous Bow, the skill can sometimes be essentially free. Sure, some of the skills are 10 energy but these are skills the ranger cannot use whenever he likes (i.e. on recharge) either. I didn't realize we were talking about teams rather than just characters. I might as well get my friend to bring GDW and lul at all the monsters. I forgot about brutal weapon, it better than conjour, when you're playing Asuran Scan, Glass Arrows, ESoH, triple shot, dual shot and forked arrow. If you have orders necro that's even better saves you the attribute points. I don't use bow other than for pulling. Barrage just isn't worth it without secondary buffs, and I can't use non barrage builds effectively, either because I don't have skills in EXP or the energy cost of some skills would just make it inefficient, other builds with traps and pets, rangers are just better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I want to cover this bit last, as I think this the source of our disagreement on the state of the Dervish. Whilst I think we largely agree on the source of the Derv's problems, I think we disagree on the power of the profession.
There is one caster that can compete or possibly exceed the damage output of any of the melee professions. The Necromancer however has to adopt one of two very fragile builds to do this - one of them depends greatly on synergy with physicals in the team and the other relies on minions. The Rit can also probably compete with SoS Spirit spam, but I have not played this extensively enough to be certain (I've hardly run the build). No1 is arguing how powerful necros and rits are, they can even be considered as OP. Necros have be extremely powerful since day1 and Rits only recently.

If however, you are referring to melee builds run by casters, then I, again, strongly disagree.
Again, there is one profession that can match or exceed the damage done by the physicals in this situation and again, it is the Necromancer. It can do this simply because Mark of Pain has such powerful synergy with Hundred Blades and the Necromancer can bring both. It's also incredibly fragile as all gimmick builds are. There's also damage downtime when you're eating MoP's recharge, where you simply hit stuff to try and make it die, only really making a difference when S&M Slash is charged. I argue that no melee focused profession should be able to match the potential DPS achieved here when Mark of Pain goes up, certainly not without having to spec heavily into the caster stuff themselves.
The Ritualist has only Splinter Weapon to really add, Spirit's Strength just isn't worthwhile and the Monk only has Strength of Honor (but is probably the most durable), however both of them will suffer energy problems without making some provisions (the Monk in particular I think). Even if you push and claim that these three beat the Dervish (and I would contest) then I can simply point to the Mesmer - he has nothing to offer to the physicals and will simply be outright inferior, especially for damage.
But here's the big thing; all of those builds are undesirable in a decent team setup. When you build a team you don't need or want such compression since you can bring on a couple of support characters, everything that those three bring and more. Here, the Dervish is still desirable. The optimal dervish build is based on ZV which only requires wind prayers and scythe mastery to run, it has nothing to do with Mysticism, the only thing that is unique to dervishes, without ZV even dervishes have energy problems. The only saving grace that the dervish has is that it has access to some warrior skills, ironic. No casters would play a poor dervish imitation and suffer from the same short comings of the dervish considering what they can already do.

-------
@reaper
I agree, if dervishes were the only class in the game, it would in fact be the most powerful class ever.....The damage the dervish can generate is not terrible consider the dervish in effect is only able to use one skill tree effectively. The full potential might be too much, you might be right that it might be safer for the meta keeping the dervish the same while bringing warriors and assassins closer to it's level with scythes. Since the dervish isn't actually underpowered, any changes might break it. The real problem is other classes making the dervish look weak in comparison.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

06 Sep 2010 at 05:44 - 260

If you want an overpowered IAS, look no further than Flail. It's only drawback (movement penalty) has no meaning in PvE. If you have to hit something with a melee weapon and can't hit something, you're not doing damage.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name View Post

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

06 Sep 2010 at 10:47 - 261

It's only drawback (movement penalty) has no meaning in PvE.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name View Post

...
Unless you take the time to ball up mobs and blow them apart with a series of nukes based on your physical output, you're simply wrong.

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Eugh. No.
Simply put, you don't bring those casters primarily for their raw DPS potential (apart from the Necromancer and maybe Rit). The Mesmer's DPS potential is somewhere in the dirt along with the Ele's. The Rit gets spirits to bring it above those two and the Necromancer has minions as well as the option of acting as a strong power amplifier for physical teams.
The casters were not built (apart from perhaps the Ele) for raw damage output as that role was already taken by the Warrior.
The roles in support each caster has are different, certainly for the core ones (the Rit is a little different here). The Monk is your defender with healing and protection, the Elementalist is your ranged source of caster damage as well as more general utility, the Necromancer is your debuffer (softer, more passive shutdown) and force multiplier as well as having access to Minions with the Mesmer being your active disruption and harder shutdown.
Ether Renewal is a separate discussion really, but doesn't make the Monk redundant. Problems the Elementalist has are also a separate discussion.

This is the last time I'm going to pursue that strawman.

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The optimal dervish build is based on ZV which only requires wind prayers and scythe mastery to run, it has nothing to do with Mysticism... Did you read any of what I said there?
And the only time I have any issues running ZV is if there's an abnormally large number or some very powerful strips and I get a bit unlucky.
...

Caster damage is generally poor and the role already filled to saturation. Pushing for this turns the Dervish into a caster and won't open new roles, simply introduce a new viable-ish build that does what the Elementalist can already easily do. It won't improve anything.

Quote: Originally Posted by saint666 View Post

But really you don't even have to do that if you can lower the damage output of warriors and assassins, maybe rangers too with scythes to dervish levels, you wouldn't even need any changes for the dervish, they'd be fine as they are. I suggested nerfing three skills that allow Warriors and Assassins to strongly use a Scythe. You attacked these suggestions quite vehemently and this is the root of this rather pained discussion. Perhaps you would like to make your own suggestions based on this more sensible premise.
I am not fully convinced Warriors outdamage Dervs when using a scythe but I'm certain Rangers don't. I can't even see how this could be the case.

Quote: Warriors can reach about 120 dps with a scythe easily, dervish does about 100 and is a lot squishier. Rangers can spam scythe attacks without ZV, unlike dervishes, which frees their elite for WS, they can also bring pets, which can help them tank as well as generating more dps. My suggestion is leave the other classes as they are, ranger might need a buff though. If anything is done about the scythe use, it should be with how dervish skills interact with them, changing skills of other classes affects how they interact with everything else that didn't need touching at all. Buff the dervish and help them find a niche that is not solely based on melee dps(spell dps, support, debuff), a role that has very little variation to begin with and has already been saturated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

The damage the dervish can generate is not terrible consider the dervish in effect is only able to use one skill tree effectively. The full potential might be too much, you might be right that it might be safer for the meta keeping the dervish the same while bringing warriors and assassins closer to it's level with scythes. Since the dervish isn't actually underpowered, any changes might break it. The real problem is other classes making the dervish look weak in comparison. Then what the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO are we arguing about here?!
If you agree that the dervish isn't underpowered, simply that the other physicals are too strong then your initial comment to me was either utterly retarded or you've changed opinions right around without admitting it directly.

Buff the dervish at the expense of warriors and assassins really?

fr.aodhan

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2010

D/Mo

06 Sep 2010 at 12:18 - 262

Enchantment nukes can become very powerful actually. Having caster dps could be quite good for the dervish since working in the realm of the caster would allow more room for different abilities and open up more roles rather than the limited variation of martial classes that has already been saturated.

<...>

Ele, rit, mes and nec have similar roles in rdps, some with additional roles in support. With the exception of the ele, the other 3 classes are quite comparable and interchangeable in what the can bring to the group, they all have great rdps and support. What the ele lacks in offense it makes it up with ER, which is stepping into the boundaries of the monk. I believe that the Dervish can be made a viable caster, but not if we insist that it be interchangeable with any given DPS. Watching this conversation, though, I've repeatedly seen the idea the game is DPS and making sure the DPS stays alive. In this sort of thinking, any DPS is roughly interchangeable with any other DPS. This is true if you squint, because a dead monster is dead no matter how it got that way, but suggesting that a Mesmer and Ritualist are interchangeable, even roughly, indicates serious problems in the analysis.

If I counted correctly, nineteen out of eighty-five of the Dervish's skills cause conditions. More than half of these are AoE spells, not scythe attacks. To my knowledge, no other profession out there can bleed, blind, burn, cripple, and weaken all nearby or adjacent enemies in four skills, all the while protecting the caster and dealing minor AoE damage. The Paragon, not coincidentally, comes closest. The Dervish can't cause disease (no one but the Necromancer can), poison, cracked armor, or daze; this last one I do consider to be a real limitation if we were to view the Dervish as a condition caster.

And that's what I'm thinking about. I understand that conditions are often ignored, but, because the Dervish is already able to so easily cause them over such large areas, I believe they deserve another look and are a possible area of expansion for the Dervish as a caster. We could consider expanding the AoE, change some single-target skills into AoE (Signet of Pious Restraint), lengthening the conditions, etc. We'd take another look at Mystic Corruption and the possibility of a native daze. We might eventually be able to stack conditions as easily as a Mesmer stacks hexes.

Just a thought about what kind of caster the Dervish could be, given that it probably won't end up as plain DPS.

saint666

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2007

LOL

06 Sep 2010 at 20:41 - 263

Simply put, you don't bring those casters primarily for their raw DPS potential (apart from the Necromancer and maybe Rit). The Mesmer's DPS potential is somewhere in the dirt along with the Ele's. The Rit gets spirits to bring it above those two and the Necromancer has minions as well as the option of acting as a strong power amplifier for physical teams.
The casters were not built (apart from perhaps the Ele) for raw damage output as that role was already taken by the Warrior.
The roles in support each caster has are different, certainly for the core ones (the Rit is a little different here). The Monk is your defender with healing and protection, the Elementalist is your ranged source of caster damage as well as more general utility, the Necromancer is your debuffer (softer, more passive shutdown) and force multiplier as well as having access to Minions with the Mesmer being your active disruption and harder shutdown.
Ether Renewal is a separate discussion really, but doesn't make the Monk redundant. Problems the Elementalist has are also a separate discussion.

Casters have roles that overlap it is true, it is also true that each have their own uniqueness the way they perform these roles, because with spell abilities you generally can have more variations in performing the same thing. The bare bones roles are these ele, mes, nec-rdps, shutdown - rit, ele, nec, rdps, support, heal, you can break down how they can do each role uniquely but in the end they share overlapping roles, it's because the can perform the same roles their own way as well as having access to multiple roles that they are interchangeable.

Assassins do more damage than warriors, why are warriors still desired? Because what they lack offense they have in defense, they are much more reliable. They can not only dish out a good amount of damage but also take it, assassins can't and are shut down easily. They are doing the same roles but they have unique qualities of their own, the are the archetypal warrior and thief classes, they are interchangeable with each other. When you introduce dervishes, they can neither do as much dps as assassins nor take as much punishment as warriors, don't bring anything that wars/sins don't have already, where does that put them? Try to fit the dervish in between these classes, with exactly the right amount of offense and defense? If too much is done to the dervish you might end up displacing both these classes, if not enough is done nothing will change for the dervish. There is a lot less variation you can have with melee attacks compared with spell abilities, in the end you just end up with the similar attacks with different names. The dervish is GW's "paladin" a frontline support class, most of their skills carry enemy debuffs, buffs, party heals, the problem is that it can't use any of it properly. You're asking why a "paladin" type class isn't as good as a glass cannon as a "thief" type class. You're saying that the problem with the dervish is that it's trying to fill the same role as warrior and assassin which both these classes excel at, but you shoot down the idea of introducing(really just making what is already there work) the caster aspect of the dervish as another way of being viable that is not in direct competition with established classes.

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Some of the best builds are caster builds, they range from dps, to support, to shutdown, to healing. A lot more variation than just dps or tanking that melee has to offer. Dervish with good caster abilities is completely possible it just depends on what anet wants to do. Maybe you're just worried about the dervish displacing caster roles. The dervish is a hybrid melee/caster, there will be a lot more room to carve out a niche for the dervish with access to both realms, rather than just to funnel the dervish into one or the other which is already quite saturated already.

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Did you read any of what I said there?
And the only time I have any issues running ZV is if there's an abnormally large number or some very powerful strips and I get a bit unlucky. not all, my point is ZV is the best build dervishes have right now and everyone has access to it and there is nothing in it's primary to make it unique from everyone else using it.

I suggested nerfing three skills that allow Warriors and Assassins to strongly use a Scythe. You attacked these suggestions quite vehemently and this is the root of this rather pained discussion. Perhaps you would like to make your own suggestions based on this more sensible premise.
I am not fully convinced Warriors outdamage Dervs when using a scythe but I'm certain Rangers don't. I can't even see how this could be the case.

Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post