Dervish Update
fr.aodhan
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Quote: There is nothing stopping you from making "fun" builds on your dervish right now. I do it all the time. Should these builds be ignored in the upcoming update because they're not currently the best? Again, this creates a situation in which each class eventually evolves towards one use and any deviation is problematic because you're using skills which are years old.
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Geeee I wonder what this major update we've been waiting for months is about, maybe it's to make the dervish efficiently utilize all it's skills, just a wild guess?|
Buffing enchantment juggling without making it superior to something else will leave it in the exact same boat it is in now: underpowered.
There is space between underpowered and superior - namely, they can be buffed until comparable. Quote:
Again your logic fails. Sword and Axe roles overlap each other in many occasions, Dragon slash = single target damage, Cleave = single target damage, Hundred Blades = AoE damage, Triple Chop = AoE Damage, both can utilize Warrior's Endurance and spam Power Attack, Counter Attack and Protector's strike. In fact Swords and Axes has way more similarities as both are attack skills than Scythes and enchantments, which are not even the same types of skills. In fact axes and swords in direct competition for dps because they are mutually exclusive, while scythes and enchantments are mutually inclusive so you can take advantage of both to achieve more dps. Scythes provide single target dps/very limited AoE, while enchantments provide TRUE AoE as well as serving as buffs for attacks and energy management. Since you are admitting that Scythes and Enchantments serve the same purpose which ultimately is dps, and they do in different ways, they are therefore compatible with each other because the are working together to achieve the same thing. They fact that axes and swords do many of the same things and are mutually exclusive put them in direct competition with each other, this will make one useless if you are using the other.
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Enchantment juggling is a hybrid combat style utilizing both enchantments and scythe attacks together. Therefore, they can be viewed as if they were a single weapon. Scythe attack skill spam, however, requires very different attribute investments and skills. You cannot do enchantment juggling and scythe attack skill spam at the same time. In other words, you can't be a pure melee and be a hybrid. You have to choose.
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It's hard to explain, but...I think too many people are getting their hopes up too high. And the more that happens, the more likely I think it is that Anet will (potentially) waste time and effort trying to fix enchantment juggling at the cost of other things that might actually help make the dervish a more useful class.
It actually a good thing, the more it happens the better, so anet doesn't waste time on what people don't want.
I know man why have variety, clearly assassins are better than dervishes, why waste time and effort on a crappy dervish when you can make assassins even better. And what makes you think A+B cannot co exist with each other, they are both parts of the same class, that's like saying well I like my right arm but since it makes my left arm kind of redundant I might as well chop it off. The fact is that with Scythes alone dervishes can never match Assassins and Warriors unless they were buffed to obscene levels to match what strength and critical strikes does. But dervishes do have something that warriors and assassins don't have, synergy with enchantments. Since they can never match warriors and assassins in attack spamming alone they will have to utilize something extra, something different something warriors and assassins cannot do as well, enchantments.
There is overlap between Swords and Axes, yes, but don't try to tell me they do the exact same thing. Neither of them can fully eclipse the other (as far as I'm aware). The amount of single target and AoE damage that an axe build will do will be different from that of DS or HB.
Now, look at scythe attack spam and enchantment juggling. Where is the variety here? Both are dealing damage to single and multiple targets, and there is nothing to suggest that one be better at one than the other. Therefore, these two forms of gameplay would be considered direct competitors.
You cannot devote yourself to spamming MS, EA, and PS while keeping your buffs up (which for the purposes of this conversation should not be confused with spells used for enchantment juggling) and still use enchantment juggling. There aren't enough skill slots for that. Something has to be sacrificed.
You're splitting hairs. AoHM is not a skill utilized to juggle enchantments (well, currently at least; saint has a pretty good idea for an AoHM change). It is a spell-based buff you put on yourself, and then forget about until you need to reapply it, not a spell cast for damage (on it's own) or removal. I'm using the term "pure melee" here to describe what the dervish does once the buffs are up.
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Originally Posted by saint666
Now, look at scythe attack spam and enchantment juggling. Where is the variety here? Both are dealing damage to single and multiple targets, and there is nothing to suggest that one be better at one than the other. Therefore, these two forms of gameplay would be considered direct competitors.
You cannot devote yourself to spamming MS, EA, and PS while keeping your buffs up (which for the purposes of this conversation should not be confused with spells used for enchantment juggling) and still use enchantment juggling. There aren't enough skill slots for that. Something has to be sacrificed.
You're splitting hairs. AoHM is not a skill utilized to juggle enchantments (well, currently at least; saint has a pretty good idea for an AoHM change). It is a spell-based buff you put on yourself, and then forget about until you need to reapply it, not a spell cast for damage (on it's own) or removal. I'm using the term "pure melee" here to describe what the dervish does once the buffs are up.
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So no matter how much you buff the dervish, assassins are better so why bother at all, that's what your logic sounds like, if this sounds silly, well then you know. Making unusable skills usable, that sounds like the mesmer buff, maybe you missed that. And how bout nether overpowered nor underpowered but balanced, yes it possible even though you can't wrap your mind around this concept.
It actually a good thing, the more it happens the better, so anet doesn't waste time on what people don't want.
If the update sucks, it won't make much of a difference anyways, it's not like dervishes are a part of the meta anyways.
To use a previous example, let's say that every axe build has x dps against single target and y dps against multiple targets. Meanwhile, let's say one particular sword build has x+10 and y+10 dps. In this scenario, whether or not the warrior can use the axe better than other classes would be meaningless, because the axe itself would still be inferior to the sword. Axes are not useful simply because they are axes, they are useful because they provide a combination of offense and defense that cannot be mimicked by something else. The same is true of everything else that is worthwhile in this game.
Now replace the words "axe" with "enchantment juggling" and "sword" with "scythe attack skill spam" and you have the current situation. Assuming dervishes really can utilize enchantments better (I'd argue assassins are currently better due to actually having the energy management to pull it off, but we all know that can be fixed), it wouldn't matter because enchantment juggling is still inferior to the scythe.
In the simple world of PvE where everything is about damage and defense, a skill/build either provides more of some combination of these two things than the alternatives, or it's underpowered. If two builds are the same but one has 5 more dps, which is better? The one with the extra dps, even if it's a small amount. Now, if the other one had +armor, well, now you're got two slightly different builds with slightly different combinations of damage and defense, each one having something on the other. But the defense provided by scythe attack spam is already all the defense the party will need from the dervish. So unless enchantment juggling can beat scythe attack spam at damage, then it will be less powerful than it.
Well, Assassins have almost twice the dps of the best dervish builds, but that doesn't mean they will always be better. That's why nerfing exists.
Ok, imagine for a moment that mending gets buffed into a clone of healing breeze that costs 15 energy instead of 10. Would anyone really care? No, because the skill would still be just as worthwhile as before (that is, not at all). Unless enchantment juggling becomes more powerful than scythe attack spam in some way (for example, what if scythe attack skill spam did more damage to single targets but for whatever reason enchantment juggling did more damage to multiple targets? That would allow the two playstyles to both be worthwhile in their own ways), then it too will be a weaker way to do the same thing.
Are you implying that most people want to see the dervish get buffed in ways that don't actually help it carve out a niche in this game? In that case, why even bother? PvE is easy enough that bad builds will work. So, really, the net effect of buffing skills that aren't worth using without actually making them worth using is 0. Unless you buff the dervish in a way that gives it a role in this game, then the same fundamental problem (being outperformed by other professions) will continue to exist, no matter what buffs you do. And that just defeats the purpose of trying to fix the class in the first place.
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Now, look at scythe attack spam and enchantment juggling. Where is the variety here? Both are dealing damage to single and multiple targets, and there is nothing to suggest that one be better at one than the other. Therefore, these two forms of game play would be considered direct competitors.
Scythe is very limited AoE not true AoE, while enchantments gives true AoE and additional damage to scythes. So no they are not the same. Scythe attack skills are attack skills, while enchantments are enhancements to those attack skills. The viability of enchantment juggling would only give an additional type of gameplay in ADDITION(Not Replace) to the type we have now, which is a poor assassin imitation. ZV will always be available as a crutch if you feel like holding on to it. I don't see having more variety in game play is a bad thing.Quote: Originally Posted by reaper with no name
You cannot devote yourself to spamming MS, EA, and PS while keeping your buffs up (which for the purposes of this conversation should not be confused with spells used for enchantment juggling) and still use enchantment juggling. There aren't enough skill slots for that. Something has to be sacrificed.
Who said anything about making all attack skills rely on enchantment juggling only, enchantment juggling is about providing variety not limiting it. There still would be attack skills that are good for attack spamming as well as attack skills that take advantage of unique dervish attributes that assassins and warriors don't have access to. Also your problem is easy enough to solve. For the maintained enchantments, increase the recharge and the duration, opposed to the juggled enchantments. Logically the maintained enchantments should always be on the bottom of all the enchantments you have. And also you're thinking that each enchantment you bring is a waste, frankly right now it is, saved for a few(AoHM, wouldn't mind another copy of that). Hopefully with some buffs that can change.Quote: Originally Posted by reaper with no name
You're splitting hairs. AoHM is not a skill utilized to juggle enchantments (well, currently at least; saint has a pretty good idea for an AoHM change). It is a spell-based buff you put on yourself, and then forget about until you need to reapply it, not a spell cast for damage (on it's own) or removal. I'm using the term "pure melee" here to describe what the dervish does once the buffs are up.Enchantments on their own aren't inherently useful just because they exist, any more than any other method of dealing damage. It is the results that matter. The fact is that you said casting spells would only lower your dps when infact, AoHM not only does not lower your dps but raises it, so you're wrong that casting lowers your dps when in fact with good spells it can raise your dps substantially. All enchantments are buffs whether short term or long, whether it's orders that lasts 5 seconds or life bond that doesn't come off, they serve to enhance your character and raise it's power, that what enchantments are. Whether it's worth your energy and time casting depends solely on what it can do for you. If an enchantment can add 100 aoe damage and in addition 40 more damage to my attack every 5 seconds i'd say that's pretty good adding both spell and melee damage, if not op.
Quote: Originally Posted by reaper with no name
To use a previous example, let's say that every axe build has x dps against single target and y dps against multiple targets. Meanwhile, let's say one particular sword build has x+10 and y+10 dps. In this scenario, whether or not the warrior can use the axe better than other classes would be meaningless, because the axe itself would still be inferior to the sword. Axes are not useful simply because they are axes, they are useful because they provide a combination of offense and defense that cannot be mimicked by something else. The same is true of everything else that is worthwhile in this game.
Dude you're splitting hairs again. The differences are so minute it doesn't even matter most of the time, whatever suits you, you have the option. Enchantments Juggling allows dervish to access true AoE and utilize it's primary attribute in addition to attack spamming that it already does right now, just not as good as warriors and assassins. Why should dervish have the OPTION to juggle enchantments? provide a combination of offense and defense that cannot be mimicked by something else. you answered yourself there.Quote: Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Now replace the words "axe" with "enchantment juggling" and "sword" with "scythe attack skill spam" and you have the current situation. Assuming dervishes really can utilize enchantments better (I'd argue assassins are currently better due to actually having the energy management to pull it off, but we all know that can be fixed), it wouldn't matter because enchantment juggling is still inferior to the scythe.
Lol if dervishes didn't suck we wouldn't be talking about buffing them would we. Dervishes are inferior period, whether with a scythe or enchantments right now. They aren't gunna equal assassins or warriors in attack spamming given how CS and STR works even if scythes were limited to dervish only. It will take both attack skills and enchantments together for that to happen. Or you can just buff scythe attacks to obscene levels and make them fail with less than 4 mysticism, love the creativity.
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
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right you are the only one that knows and no one else does. I'm pretty sure why people disagree with you is because they realize how full of holes your arguments are.
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There is a big difference in what should happen and what is likely to happen. Dervishes should be doing more damage to multiple targets than any other class via enchantment juggling. Elementalists should nuke better than Monks, Mesmers, Necromancers, and Ritualists. Monks should heal better than Elementalists. Warriors should not be able to do insane amounts of AoE damage. Rangers should deal more damage with bows than Ritualists. Assassins should not be effective against multiple targets. Warriors should not be capable of effectively utilizing any energy-dependent weapon. SF should not exist. PvE-Only skills should not exist. Damage cap skills should not be a requirement for successful HM play.
Dervishes should be doing more damage to multiple targets than any other class via enchantment juggling. you said it. It seems easier than trying to carve a sliver in a role that already been saturated and beaten to death by assassins and warriors and try to make them all balanced at the same time anyways.
0 activation is a bit too much to hope for though. A 1/4 cast time or even a 1/2 cast time would be great.
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
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I agree with your reason why a lot of dervish healing skills are rarely used: Their cast time. The role of a Dervish is hardly healing. These skills should have more synergy with the other builds of this profession and designed in a way that can be used as a boon to their main roles.|
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Since none of those other flaws so deeply ingrained in the game are going to be fixed, what makes you think that enchantment juggling will?
That really depends on how much they like the dervish, it's not that bad as a storage character anyways.
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It's close range nuking with spell damage in addition to enhancing the melee role the dervish already has.
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Once again, buffing for the sake of buffing is a bad idea. If you're just looking for fun, it doesn't matter if something is good so long as it does the job. The dervish is more than good enough to get the job done. So, the only reason to buff anything on the dervish is to make it optimal for some situation. Being inferior to the competition by a small amount is still being inferior. So, buffs that do not serve the purpose of making the dervish optimal for some situation don't serve any purpose other than worthless power creep.
Games=/=fun okay. I wouldn't worry about enchantment juggling not being powerful enough, power creep maybe. They have a balance team right?
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Very good suggestion. Although I doubt they would implement a "cannot miss" functionality in the game but if they add a blindness removal effect it can be much more effective than what it already is. The effect can be personal or party wide. If they make it party wide, it can be a good skill for structured PvP. The 30 seconds recharge is still high though.
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0 activation and no after-cast delay; otherwise identical to current functionality. The inability to cast and attack at the same time is one of the fundamental reasons why skills such as this rarely see play. |
The original idea of all these enchantments, that they do something on ending, works for me. Doing a spike of damage on ending synchronizes with the "spike" from Mysticism, so it makes in-world sense. I always thought that Sand Shards was a little weird that way. I'm over here. My shards are over there, rotating around nothing. 
0 activation is a bit too much to hope for though. A 1/4 cast time or even a 1/2 cast time would be great.
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Pious Assault (PvE)
5 energy, 1 activation, 12 recharge
Lose 1 dervish enchantment. Deals +10...50 damage. If an enchantment was removed, this skill recharges instantly. Did you remove the deep wound effect intentionally?
5 energy, 1 activation, 12 recharge
Lose 1 dervish enchantment. Deals +10...50 damage. If an enchantment was removed, this skill recharges instantly. Did you remove the deep wound effect intentionally?
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Staggering Force (PvE) Heart of Holy Flame (PvE) Dust Cloak (PvE) Grenth's Fingers (PvE) Energy costs reduced to 5. Activation times become 0 (leaving only the .75 second aftercast delay). Recharge times reduced to 3. Damage becomes armor-ignoring. I think the energy cost reduction would be sufficient in most cases. Although I would like to see that changed for both PvE and PvP.
They officially don't, but of course they do.
Pious Renewal (PvE)Quote: For 8 seconds, whenever a dervish enchantment ends on you, you gain 0...2 energy and all nearby foes are interrupted. Fails with 3 or less mysticism. |
I like the interrupt. Perhaps remove the energy gain, give the interrupting an energy cost so that it synergizes with what Mysticism actually does? That way, you could remove the Mysticism 3 requirement. And then add just a bit of holy damage.
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Twin Moon Sweep (PvE) Removes only dervish enchantments. If enchantment is removed, have the skill recharge instantly as well. Not sure about it removing only Derv enchantments. People might want to combine it with Life Sheath. But I agree 100% with the instant recharge. Quote:
Deep wound can only be applied once per enemy. Trading it for more +dmg is well worth the trade. Besides, there are scythe elites to provide DW.
5 energy enchantments that take 1.75 seconds to cast and do nothing except a 60 armor-sensitive AoE are, well, crap. Even if you had enchantment removal skills that did +200 damage, skills with quicker recharge times would be chosen instead (such as Vital Boon). There needs to be reduced cast times on these things, and a lot more damage in order to justify their use. Plus, they also need to be spammable, because in PvE, dps is where it's at. Compare this Guiding Hands to Warrior's Cunning, another anti-block skill. It's recharge is even longer (though admittedly, it affects more attacks). It's still underpowered, of course, but if you make it more powerful it opens up abuse potential (dervishes are very spike-heavy). The current Aura of Thorns is worthless. Neither the crippling nor the bleeding is worth the energy (let alone the lost dps from wasting time casting, the lost skill slot, or the attribute point investment). Melandru and Dwayna are the only ones that would be able to stack, and each one would already provide all the hex or condition removal a party would need. If you're worried about the effect of using all of them together, keep in mind that every avatar you take means a significant loss of dps relative to a damage-focused build. Quote:
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You mean the "recharge an enchantment, instead of Pious Assault" one? Interesting, but opens up a lot of potential for abuse. Off the top of my head, i can imagine Guiding Hands infinite unblockability spam, Vital Boon spam, and Eternal Aura spam (infinite spamming of it's AoE would be good, but once you consider it's effect of recharging other skills...). Plus, now you need Pious Assault's recharge to be miniscule (or no sustained dps, which is huge in PvE).
Actually, I'd bring the recharge down to about 10 or so. This allows you to use it to recharge skills every 10 seconds, which is not the same as "infinite spamming". Being able to use it to get more unblockable strikes is, in my opinion, a valid use. I myself would probably just use it to recharge Heart of Fury . Quote:
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