Dervish Update
G4ymBoy
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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
Disagree. Energy might be more important but giving back health is a big booster for a class with 70 armor.
I agree having a bigger health boost would actually be nice.
saint666
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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
It adds damage. (this) VoS does not.
It activates on every attack. VoS does not.
It's non elite. VoS is not.
So what if you have to have another person in your party cast it on you? Are parties with more than one person really rare in high end PvE nowadays? And it's not whenever you want. It comes into effect whenever your attack skill successfully hits. Blind? No hit. Some kind of missing hex? No Hit. Blocking? No Hit. Also it's strippable...
Quote: Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
Abusing scythes you can deal around 100+ damage per 1.13 seconds (assuming you're using an IAS and proper buffs) to 3 foes in front of you. Over the course of 5 seconds that's at least 400 damage. Also I'm not talking about the Dervish being able to deal hueg amounts of Scythe damage along with the AoE. Not like 500 damage from enchantments plus 100 from your scythe. Like 500 damage including the scythe damage. So more like you're dealing 500 to 3 foes and something like 200 to the rest. I dunno. This idea as of now is just an idea. I don't even have ideas for skills yet. But in any event the idea of huge damage in one instant rather than big damage attack spamming would at least differentiate the Dervish from everyone else. Okay you were ambiguous with your wording, when you said 400-500 aoe i assumed you meant just that.
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Oh and when is something not destroying DoA with minimal effort?
before DWG buff how many people were in DoA, it's like Ursanway revived. You can literally take people with no experience what so ever and finish it. With the other builds you at least needed some experience and skill.
Originally Posted by saint666
Originally Posted by saint666
before DWG buff how many people were in DoA, it's like Ursanway revived. You can literally take people with no experience what so ever and finish it. With the other builds you at least needed some experience and skill.
I don't do DoA. I mostly do speedclears in dungeons. But every time I am in DoA for some reason or another it feels like there is some gimmick being run. Also the population there seems to be around the same as before the DwG buff. But I'll admit I don't know from experience about these builds if that wasn't obvious.
Originally Posted by saint666
Heart of Holy FlameOriginally Posted by saint666
Mysticism
Enchantment Spell
5e cost
1/4s cast
10s recharge
All adjacent foes are set on fire for 1...5 seconds. For 10 seconds this enchantment does nothing. If this enchantment was removed by a dervish attack, all adjacent foes to your target take 20...100 holy damage.
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Aura of Holy Might
Allegiance Title
Enchantment Spell
5e cost
1/4s cast
10s recharge
All adjacent foes are blinded for 1...5 seconds. For 10 seconds this enchantment does nothing. If this enchantment was removed by a dervish attack, your attacks do 20...30% more damage for 5 seconds and all adjacent foes to your target take 80...120 holy damage. o.0 Holy Christ on a crutch. This needs to be toned down. How bout 30-50 damage? As is you could deal considerably more than 500 damage in 5 seconds with just this.
So you mean synergy with the party as in being completely broken? With a doubling of the energy gained per enchantment, it would be broken if other players casting enchants on you also giving you energy. It'd be like soul reaping on crack. Other party members critting should give assassins energy, other members using shouts on paras should give them energy? All primarys for the classes except para's function independently. For that reasons para's are completely gimped when trying to function without a party. If the primary was supposed to function with a party then, it will have to be severely weakened for soloing. The energy gain from mysticism was so little, you'd have to have a monk spamming RoF on you to have enough energy, with the energy doubled and the cost of the enchantments lowered dervishes will be self sufficient and have no need for monks to be burning their energy so that you can have enough.Allegiance Title
Enchantment Spell
5e cost
1/4s cast
10s recharge
All adjacent foes are blinded for 1...5 seconds. For 10 seconds this enchantment does nothing. If this enchantment was removed by a dervish attack, your attacks do 20...30% more damage for 5 seconds and all adjacent foes to your target take 80...120 holy damage. o.0 Holy Christ on a crutch. This needs to be toned down. How bout 30-50 damage? As is you could deal considerably more than 500 damage in 5 seconds with just this.
Assassins can get away with losing a PvE slot for IAS because critical strikes is insanely overpowered in PvE. Dervishes can't.
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Maintainable! Make it so you can use it for a perma IAS or for enchant juggling.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Lillium
I also think reduced recharges for a second class that has nothing to do with casting time and recharging is completely unfitting. Mesmer at least had a few skills that reduced recharge times before the update, so it was in fact still within their natural domain of abilities.Yes, Dervish has Eternal Aura, but that does not reduce recharge times. It simply removes them from anything currently recharging. This is completely different. For example, Eternal Aura will counter a Power Block or Diversion with good timing while reduced recharge times will not counter either. The reduction of time is there to prevent other classes with the energy, (i.e assassins and W/E warriors) from using dervish enchantments and attacks better than dervishes as well as boosting dervish dmg at the same time. You can remove the reduce recharge times from mysticism and directly reduce the recharge of the enchantments, it be great for warriors and assassins. It's for balancing reasons, just like what was done to soul reaping, ehhh there's no necro skills that limit you to gain energy only 3 times per 15 seconds, it doesn't make sense, durrrrr.
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Your idea is slightly broken the way it is right now. You can pretty much be enchanted perpetually or at least multiple times with certain enchantments that weren't meant to be able to be used multiple times in a short amount of time, you'd have to have a massive cross class rebalanced to address the issue. Enchantments that come to mind are RoF and Eternal Aura as mentioned but there is a lot more. here goes, Divine Intervention, Watchful Healing, Restful Breeze, Life Sheath, Shield Guardian, Spirit Bond, Balthazar's Pendulum, Holy Wrath, Judge's Intervention and Reversal of Damage, for monk enchantments. Sand Shards, Vital Boon, Watchful Intervention and Guiding Hands for dervish enchantments. Assassin's Remedy, Feigned Neutrality, Way of the Fox, Way of the Lotus and Fox's Promise for assassin enchantments. Illusion of Haste, Auspicious Incantation, Arcane Echo and Echo for mesmer enchantments, that's all I can think of right now. You'd have either change all these skills or make mysticism exclude it's effect on each and every single of these spells which sounds ridiculous.Quote:
@saint666;Your ideas are just bad in my opinion. No need to attack me for having an opinion that you don't agree with. The skills you happened to pick are some of the more useful skills that dervishes have, which ruins more than it creates. Attacks in mysticism, however, is a good idea. Given they should be directly related to enchantments in some way.
Quote: Originally Posted by Lillium
The energy gain from mysticism does not need to be your main energy fuel on a dervish. He has energy management skills and 4 pips of regen. Use them. However, even when you have a dervish running completely without self enchants or mysticism skills you usually find them dropping a few points into mysticism. Why? Because other people will cast enchantments on you, and its not much, but the little boost is nice. Not something you expect some orders necro, monk, or gimmick to spam enchants to fuel you. But it does still give the attribute function when you are not directly using it. Much more like strength, fast casting, energy storage, or soul reaping.
Hey guess what, most classes have 4 pips of regeneration, and the sad thing is they can do what a dervish can do just as well or bad, cause the best dps builds for a dervish doesn't even involve mysticism, cause you're right mysticism is not the main driver of dervish builds. Maybe you didn't know this but, mysticism was meant to be the main source energy for dervishes, being a primary attribute and all, but of course not the only source. You're free to blow your elite on ZV or waste 1-2 slots on e-management instead of taking more utility or DPS skills which is mainly where dervs are inferior to the other melees, it up to you. For dervishes to be self sufficient at what it was supposed to be good at, mysticism has to give enough energy, if mysticism is giving more energy it cannot receive energy from other ppl casting enchantment on you, it's just a balance issue that you don't seem to understand. Of course it great getting free energy for doing nothing but gaining 8 energy every 2 seconds with RoF spammed on you is severely broken. You'd have to limit the energy gain from other ppl to a lower potency, as well as lowering the energy gain from yourself to balance it out, and then we're are back where we started. Guess what if ppl don't feel like spamming enchantments on you, you get nothing, so instead of hoping to get a small energy gain from someone else here and there why not put it all in you're own hands. Mysticism has a really great synergy with other party members using enchants (specifically on you), yeh just not when you're using them yourself. You can run Dervs without enchantments of course, just like para's without shouts, Monks without monk spells, Rits without weapon spells/rituals, rangers without ranger/attack skills, just don't expect them to be as good.
Consider this: If assassins did not have access to AoHM at all, by my math, they would have exactly the same dps as a zealous vow dervish (give or take 5 dps). Therefore, tying it to scythe mastery would not help the dervish, because if assassins are able to use the skill with any real effectiveness (even if it is diminished somewhat), then they will still be far better at the scythe than the dervish.
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I submit that this is incorrect and that you've fallen into the trap I discuss above, insisting that the Dervish play one role. Even today the Dervish has other capabilities and in the past has had more. Consider, for instance, the old Vow of Piety, which healed a random party member on enchantment loss. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to turn under-represented skills into a juggler's tool set. There are some elites (e.g. Pious Renewal) which beg to be strengthened and included in juggling builds.Quote:
Tying it to scythe mastery wouldn't be enough.
Consider this: If assassins did not have access to AoHM at all, by my math, they would have exactly the same dps as a zealous vow dervish (give or take 5 dps). Therefore, tying it to scythe mastery would not help the dervish, because if assassins are able to use the skill with any real effectiveness (even if it is diminished somewhat), then they will still be far better at the scythe than the dervish.
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Quote: Therefore, the only things to differentiate them are the amount of damage they deal, and the defense that they offer to the party. If one method is superior to the other in both ways, then the other is useless. You insist on letting the current situation inform what will be, which is a little confusing. Who cares if juggling is useless when we're sitting on the cusp of an update? Just because Role A blows Role B out of the water is no reason to move the class closer to A and neglect B. In fact, one might argue that they should take a closer look at B to make sure the player has some viable choices available. It's certainly no reason to throw in the towel and declare B dead.
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SY (which fits easily onto scythe bars) provides enough defense that anything extra which enchantment juggling could provide in that regard becomes redundant and silly (worse yet, it may not even be possible for enchantment juggling to provide superior party defense, considering the ways in which it currently operates).
This is the sort of thinking that destroys the variability (read: fun) in designing builds. If juggling doesn't match the power of this one PvE skill in terms of party defense, it is redundant and silly? Do we suspect the developers really think that all Dervish roles should necessarily carry a PvE skill from another class (in fact, another expansion) to be viable? To me, it seems more likely that you're too heavily steeped in popularized builds if this is how you think about updates. Quote:
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