If you (=Anet) have by now still not noticed that not Shattering Assault or Escape were the main problems in the R/A builds, take a look at the Coward Pressure and Assault Assassin that people are using nowadays. Jagged Strike and Fox Fangs simply promote spam too much and there is no reason to keep these functions for PvP. The kind of builds that feature these skills will keep coming back until you nerf the source.
The fact that this skill can be countered is irrelevant. What matters is that it provides gameplay that is inferior to that of a Warrior, meaning it's broken.
Because these skills are broken, one can't suffice with a simple change such as a number-nerf or even removing the unblockable from Fox Fangs. A complete rework is in order and for that, the Assassin needs a proper balanced role, which it currently lacks. As long as that isn't fixed, there is no reason to keep these skills alive as they will always lead to dumb builds such as those I described above.
Jagged Strike and Fox Fangs
Morphy
Gift3d
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Morphy
The solution? Guardian.
|
Morphy
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Gift3d
Fixed that statement up for ya, champ. Sins right now are weak, and easy as all hell to counter. Hope you get better at the game soon. Cheers.
|
Masmar
Overpowered or underpowered things are broken. You contradict yourself.
Morphy
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Masmar
Overpowered or underpowered things are broken. You contradict yourself.
|
Luminarus
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Gift3d
Fixed that statement up for ya, champ. Sins right now are weak, and easy as all hell to counter. Hope you get better at the game soon. Cheers.
|
Fox Fangs is unblockable. Jagged is a quick cast attack with 1 recharge. Lets assume you have guardian up, the law of odds of a 50% block suggests that youll get through after 2 seconds. Fox fangs guaranteed to get through. Then either any dual attack which may or may not be blocked. Lets also remember that guardian has a 4 second recharge, where as the sins combo has a 3 second recharge. So run up to a target start chain, change targets restart chain gogo.
They also then can have a perma ims (Rush) and coward makes a great snare for kiters. If the monk decides to kite, coward him run up start chain. Youll probably get out your dual before guardian sets in.
Thats similar to the people who used to say that broken stuff wasnt op because you could D-shot it, or land a diversion on it. Its still broken, its just not uncounterable.
HigherMinion
Just remove the unblockable function in PvP and split it for PvE. It does no harm there.
Gift3d
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Morphy
I'm not talking about overpoweredness. Broken is broken and anything that is as mindless as these skills is in fact broken.
|
Del
..Or just get rid of the fast activation so it can't be spammed nearly as hard.
Morphy
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Gift3d
It's the Assassin. The class itself is mindless. I still don't see what you're trying to get at, here...
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Del
..Or just get rid of the fast activation so it can't be spammed nearly as hard.
|
HigherMinion
Spamming skills and pressuring opponents isn't considered bad play. Not being able to defend yourself against them is bad play.
Morphy
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
Spamming skills isn't considered bad play.
|
HigherMinion
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Morphy
Orly? Since when? Last time I checked, skills that promoted spamming were considered bad.
|
Think of it like this: A popular Stoning elementalist build; you go Ebon Hawk-Stoning-Ash Blast on the phys then cover Blind with Weakness again.
If you just spammed it constantly on the one foe without tabbing or targeting properly, it's ineffective. If you weaken a foe but then they get cleaned before your Stoning hits them, it's ineffective.
It's all down to the execution.
Del
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
Spamming skills and pressuring opponents isn't considered bad play. Not being able to defend yourself against them is bad play.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
If they're spamming and Failing, then it's bad. If they're spamming and getting a good outcome, it's not.
Think of it like this: A popular Stoning elementalist build; you go Ebon Hawk-Stoning-Ash Blast on the phys then cover Blind with Weakness again. If you just spammed it constantly on the one foe without tabbing or targeting properly, it's ineffective. If you weaken a foe but then they get cleaned before your Stoning hits them, it's ineffective. It's all down to the execution. |
Xenomortis
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
Spamming skills and pressuring opponents isn't considered bad play. Not being able to defend yourself against them is bad play.
|
Skyy High
Woooo +30 damage on top of dagger autoattacking every 3 seconds! Big numbers here!
>_>
Any warrior should be hitting for more simply autoattacking and hitting some random attack skills. As long as autoattacking under an IAS has such high DPS for a warrior, you can't honestly complain about the existence of some (pretty bad) spamming builds for other professions. R/As were bad because they literally would never run out of energy, and they had effectively permanent 33% speed boost / block coupled with 33% IAS / block. This...no. Enough whining already.
>_>
Any warrior should be hitting for more simply autoattacking and hitting some random attack skills. As long as autoattacking under an IAS has such high DPS for a warrior, you can't honestly complain about the existence of some (pretty bad) spamming builds for other professions. R/As were bad because they literally would never run out of energy, and they had effectively permanent 33% speed boost / block coupled with 33% IAS / block. This...no. Enough whining already.
Sirius Bsns
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Morphy
Even if the Assassin had a proper role, these skills would be mindless. Seeing that Assassins don't have a role, it's hard to determine what to change them to. Reworking them is therefore not a realistic option. Since these skills will always lead to bad play in their current form, they should be nuked until a role is made up for Assassin.
|
Also, The 1/2 cast attacks have no huge raw damage, only bleeding degen, interruption, or a weak bonus. Again, no HUGE damage that can overwhelm and instakill you.
So, stop being bad at the game, please.
Arm
I can't understand if the op is trying to say the skills are too hard to defend against or make playing assassin too easy? either way I'm thinking this thread is a joke.
Either get some blocking/blind skillz if it's killing you or switch the skillz for others if u don't like using them. This is going nowhere tho.
I vote /closed
Either get some blocking/blind skillz if it's killing you or switch the skillz for others if u don't like using them. This is going nowhere tho.
I vote /closed
miriforst
Why should warriors always be better at melee?
Tenebrae
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Luminarus
Thats similar to the people who used to say that broken stuff wasnt op because you could D-shot it, or land a diversion on it. Its still broken, its just not uncounterable.
|
I agree thou that FF have fast recharge, good damage bonus , its unblockable and quick activation time. Its bloody broken . It is without a doubt the better ( if not a top 3 ) offhand that sins have. They should nerf one of its aspects ... or 2. I would take out its quick activation time and make recharge 6 sec.
Desert Rose
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by miriforst
Why should warriors always be better at melee?
|
Nobody would mind if the assassin or dervish would be as powerful as a warrior if they wouldn't be one-trick ponys.
Reverend Dr
My only complaint is that those sin skills are too effective for the amount of skill required to mash the button repeatedly.
HigherMinion
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
My only complaint is that those sin skills are too effective for the amount of skill required to mash the button repeatedly.
|
Del
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
And Dev-hammer qlocking isn't easy?
|
Sirius Bsns
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tenebrae
Wait , no one is saying its uncounterable . In fact there are bloody hell lots of melee counter ( lot more than caster counters ) and Jagged has no bonus dmg and only has .... bleeding ? woah. I think it should stay like that.
I agree thou that FF have fast recharge, good damage bonus , its unblockable and quick activation time. Its bloody broken . It is without a doubt the better ( if not a top 3 ) offhand that sins have. They should nerf one of its aspects ... or 2. I would take out its quick activation time and make recharge 6 sec. |
Ghost Dog
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
My only complaint is that those sin skills are too effective for the amount of skill required to mash the button repeatedly.
|
Fahhhh
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
My only complaint is that those sin skills are too effective for the amount of skill required to mash the button repeatedly.
|
Nerfing sin skills now would be the same as shooting a dead body
Bring back AoD sins plz Anet thanks very much
pinkeyflower
It's the DPS the build is capable of and the small penalty for failing to hit. I hate these guys but nerfing them would make sins extremely weak.
Terrible Surgeon
Its all about power creeping. If there were no melee spam builds in the game what would you do for pressure in PvP? Hex way? And if you nerfed spam builds/skills you would have to nerf healers or they would be Op. The whole enchilada would need reworked not just one bite of it.
Warriors run on adrenaline, this is why they can't be called a spamming class. What if assassins had some skills run off of adrenaline also? This would take care of the spamming, but they would need to up the dmg output somewhat to compensate for not being able to hit 123456 at will.
Warrior skills put out more DMG than assassin skills. But assassins can spam certain skills to make up for that. This is why you are upset.
Warriors run on adrenaline, this is why they can't be called a spamming class. What if assassins had some skills run off of adrenaline also? This would take care of the spamming, but they would need to up the dmg output somewhat to compensate for not being able to hit 123456 at will.
Warrior skills put out more DMG than assassin skills. But assassins can spam certain skills to make up for that. This is why you are upset.
Morphy
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
If they're spamming and Failing, then it's bad. If they're spamming and getting a good outcome, it's not.
Think of it like this: A popular Stoning elementalist build; you go Ebon Hawk-Stoning-Ash Blast on the phys then cover Blind with Weakness again. If you just spammed it constantly on the one foe without tabbing or targeting properly, it's ineffective. If you weaken a foe but then they get cleaned before your Stoning hits them, it's ineffective. It's all down to the execution. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Skyy High
Woooo +30 damage on top of dagger autoattacking every 3 seconds! Big numbers here!
>_> Any warrior should be hitting for more simply autoattacking and hitting some random attack skills. As long as autoattacking under an IAS has such high DPS for a warrior, you can't honestly complain about the existence of some (pretty bad) spamming builds for other professions. R/As were bad because they literally would never run out of energy, and they had effectively permanent 33% speed boost / block coupled with 33% IAS / block. This...no. Enough whining already. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns
Assassins have roles: to KILL SH*T and FAST! If they're killing you fast, it means you aren't using Guardian, Natural Stride, any Tactics stances, etc.. and expect to win how? There's also a plethora of anti-melee skills and spells to subdues them. USE THEM. Quit your whining.
Also, The 1/2 cast attacks have no huge raw damage, only bleeding degen, interruption, or a weak bonus. Again, no HUGE damage that can overwhelm and instakill you. So, stop being bad at the game, please. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arm
I can't understand if the op is trying to say the skills are too hard to defend against or make playing assassin too easy? either way I'm thinking this thread is a joke.
Either get some blocking/blind skillz if it's killing you or switch the skillz for others if u don't like using them. This is going nowhere tho. I vote /closed |
If Assassins are the meta and Assassins feature mindless spam, then mindless spam becomes the standard way to play the game. No "changing builds" will fix that because then you will have a disadvantage against players that DO use these builds. Maybe this argument works for PvE, but it definitely doesn't apply to PvP in the slightest.
Your other "argument", my supposed inability to counter these kind of builds, isn't even worth answering because it's purely ad hominem. You having to use fallacies to back up your flawed statements just shows how ignorant you are of how this game works. Congratulations.
ajc2123
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Morphy
Killing shit fast isn't considered a proper role in the game. In fact, anything that features 123456 or spamming on recharge is bad for the game. Warriors require positioning and field awareness to be effective, these mentioned Assassin builds don't. |
Fahhhh
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Morphy
Again, I'm not talking about the POWER of these skills here, but about the way in which they're used.
|
o and bring back AoD sins please
Morphy
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ajc2123
That's the assassin class dude. It either does that or dies. Only way to fix is a complete re-haul or deletion of the class. Neither of which will happen any time soon.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fahhhh
Alright once again in PvE every class uses a spam build of some sort (pretty much). They are not currently an issue in PvP and so why waste the little time they put into balancing skills in this game on skills that are not even used in the current meta? Let them focus on shit that actually matters instead of fixing shit like this because you feel bored mashing jagged -> fox fangs.
o and bring back AoD sins please |
In PvP, I doubt bringing back AoD is a very good idea. That build, while requiring some level of skill, was extremely frustrating to play against. Turning Assassins into a class with superior mobility is fine with me, returning it to a class that is practically uncatchable even with snares isn't.
Terrible Surgeon
So basically, if you had your way, assassins would be deleted?
HigherMinion
The more spammable the skills, the faster the game moves; the more exciting it should be.
What Morphy seems to want is people to wand/chop eachother to death with 30s recharge skills as a way of balancing... Sounds awesome?
What Morphy seems to want is people to wand/chop eachother to death with 30s recharge skills as a way of balancing... Sounds awesome?
Tenebrae
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns
It'd make the weak-ass assassins even weaker, and it'd make Wild Strike the far better option again. You sure are the bright bulb when it comes to balance, ey?
|
... oh wait ... NO.
The only buffs sins have right now are to make some skills bloody broken and overpowered because of the multiple nerfs they got over the years.
My change wont make Wild Strike better ( and ofc not even by far ) because ( and read again ) i said that at least ONE of its aspects should be taken away , not all. Right now FF>WS in ALL aspects ( pfff stance removal ) and it shouldnt be like that.
Are you sure you got a clue about balance when you called sins weak ?
Morphy
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon
So basically, if you had your way, assassins would be deleted?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
The more spammable the skills, the faster the game moves; the more exciting it should be.
What Morphy seems to want is people to wand/chop eachother to death with 30s recharge skills as a way of balancing... Sounds awesome? |
While it's important to determine exactly how fast the game has to go to have gameplay that is both exciting on a small scale and on a large scale, it has no bearing on this specific thread.
Bobby2
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Morphy
No, I would re-design them to a highly mobile midline class.
|
Fahhhh
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Morphy
In PvP, I doubt bringing back AoD is a very good idea. That build, while requiring some level of skill, was extremely frustrating to play against. Turning Assassins into a class with superior mobility is fine with me, returning it to a class that is practically uncatchable even with snares isn't.
|
Morphy
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bobby2
This what you're getting at?
|