Nerf DwG - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

jonnieboi05

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

Mableton, Georgia

Guild Ancestors Reunited [?????????]

13 Jun 2010 at 16:00 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Or you have a hammer warrior on you and are likely to be sitting in the middle of savannah and eating a rodgort's.

It sees play in HA, though that is mostly due to HA's poor formating that gives more strength to AoE than it should.

This says it right.

Lithril Ashwalker

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2008

Alabama

A/

13 Jun 2010 at 16:11 - 42

.... In other words stop whining kiddos it's not gonna get needed unless you have good reason.

~~~~close thread~~~~~~

DigitalFear

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2009

My mother's basement.

Me/

13 Jun 2010 at 16:21 - 43

No, just no. The only reason that it's so 'powerful' Is because four goddamn people are using it at the same time.

Seriously, get four Searing Flames eles and watch the same thing happen.

/notsigned.

Eragon Zarroc

Atra estern?? ono thelduin

Join Date: Jan 2008

Madness Incarnate

[Duo]

W/P

13 Jun 2010 at 19:14 - 44

nerf this, nerf that, qq. it's only nm doa runs. let the people who enjoy doing it enjoy it.

/notsigned

Sirius Bsns

Banned

Join Date: May 2010

PonG

W/Mo

13 Jun 2010 at 19:45 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc

nerf this, nerf that, qq. it's only nm doa runs. let the people who enjoy doing it enjoy it.

/notsigned

But NO, OP wants to ruin their enjoyment. So, let's ruin their enjoyment! Let's get DwG nerfed so even more players can stop playing DoA, and the game for that matter. There's always a plus side to things when you can drive more players away from the game in order to lower server costs for Anet. Let's make even more room in town for the newbies who prefer hero/henching/soloing/failing everything. Lord knows Devona, Mhenlo, Aiden, and the rest of the gang, all have a gripe about us players taking up so much extra room in their cities.

jonnieboi05

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

Mableton, Georgia

Guild Ancestors Reunited [?????????]

13 Jun 2010 at 20:35 - 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc

nerf this, nerf that, qq. it's only nm doa runs. let the people who enjoy doing it enjoy it.

/notsigned

Agreed. Further nerfing of whatever there is left to do in this near-dead game will only chase away potential GW 2 customers.

jazilla

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Guernsey Milking Coalition[MiLk]

E/Me

13 Jun 2010 at 22:00 - 47

i find this really amusing. There are about 5-10 other builds in DoA I can think of that absolutely roll in there in NM. I mean you are talking about NM. After the introduction of PvE only skills. DoA is nowhere near as hard. I remember when ANET had to actually tone down HM DoA before EoTN because it was too hard. Juts leave it alone or we are all gonna get "kill this skill, kill that skill"

/notsigned

Yoshida Keiji

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2010

Japan

Ancient Shinobi Imperial Army

P/W

13 Jun 2010 at 22:28 - 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc Zenith

Not true. Ursan Pug's could clear Doa in hm and in no time without any single probles..it was really foolproof and forgiving build.Only have played Dwg at jq/fa but if it's becoming mindless easymode as Ursan in pve...

/signed (only if it reaches the Ursan lvls which i doubt very much)

Its not the same as Ursan.

For DwG to work well you need to meet two conditions.

First you need the echoed version or that player will only bring half the damage of a primary rit.
And second you need to be secondary mesmer or they will die a lot a Foundry without Mantra versus the Titans.

So for Destructive Was Glaive to work efficiently, characters have to be

Ritualist/Mesmer

The other professions as say Any/Rit are only as half as good.

WarcryOfTruth

Site Contributor

Join Date: Nov 2009

Atlanta

[LIFE]

P/

13 Jun 2010 at 22:32 - 49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshida Keiji

I share the same experience, no pug team before DwG had same chances to complete DoA. Some may say it has become over powered.

But I tell you what. When I come home earlier from work I can do 3 fr and when late only one. Three to five per weekend days if staying at home.

Still plenty of groups fail with Glaiveway.

*Monks not willing to remove hex from para.
*Rits coming with regular SoS build but not the one from this teambuild.
*Rits droppping bundle item at back line.
*Rits over aggroing.
*SoS rising spirits anywhere but actualy where necesary.
*Regular infiltrated noobs.
*Peeps miserable enough for not willing to share 1k for cons.
*AFKers/Leechers.
*Leavers.
*Cheat FR announcements but team stopping after one or two areas.
*Rits not taking Gaze of Fury for Mallyx...
*Peeps not skipping cinematic.
*Etc.

What's in bold isn't even needed, the first one, every build does NOT have to be EXACTLY as shown for a run to be successful. If a teams fails and a spirit spammer has a different bar than that, it is the team's fault, not the Spammer's fault.

The 2nd one in bold, you shouldn't need Gaze of Fury... you should fight Mallyx outside of his chamber away from those spirits, to where the spirit effect does not even get on you.

Yoshida Keiji

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2010

Japan

Ancient Shinobi Imperial Army

P/W

13 Jun 2010 at 22:38 - 50

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

What's in bold isn't even needed, the first one, every build does NOT have to be EXACTLY as shown for a run to be successful. If a teams fails and a spirit spammer has a different bar than that, it is the team's fault, not the Spammer's fault.

The 2nd one in bold, you shouldn't need Gaze of Fury... you should fight Mallyx outside of his chamber away from those spirits, to where the spirit effect does not even get on you.

Are you sure?

How many fail teams I have already been with SoS rits not bringing Convert Hexes for paragon.... Pufff lost count...

Same question again...

How many fail teams I have already been with players who dont skip cinematic... percentage of successful skipping is what...? 20%?

Covah

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Ontario, Canada

Catching Jellyfish With [소N트T ]

Me/Rt

13 Jun 2010 at 23:44 - 51

Its NM DoA, people are finishing HM DoA runs in half that time. Who cares about what the noobs do for money. It's all they can do in elite areas let them do it. If they were rolling through the areas in <45 min maybe. but its like 1.5 hours in NM getting less them half of the gems you get in HM SCs.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

14 Jun 2010 at 00:39 - 52

People just keep lowering their standard before something is "overpowered". Its a classic case of "giving an inch and they'll take a mile".

One of the prevalent argument during the SF QQ storm was that it made HM too easy for pugs..."If they can't do it then they should be in NM" /Quote

Now that the evil pugs are chased back to NM, guess what? More QQ...

aefghuys

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2006

Missouri

Obon

D/P

15 Jun 2010 at 14:18 - 53

/signed

only because i like playing doa and everyone refuses to play anything but dwg. im not a huge fan of nerf this/that...but the area is ruined, thats the problem

Morphy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Netherlands

Not going to keep up with that anymore

R/

15 Jun 2010 at 16:27 - 54

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

People are basically just picking every decent build that doesn't fit in convention definition of "balanced" team and starts whining about it.

...Calling imbalance on imbalanced stuff is normal.

vandevere

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2007

The Great State of Denial

W/Mo

15 Jun 2010 at 18:29 - 55

I have to post this link to an article by Scott Jennings. Now, granted, he's focusing on PVP as opposed to PVE, but the PVE community could also profit by reading this.

I've linked to the second page, which is more subject to the subject, but there's also a link to the first page for anyone who wishes to read the whole article...

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cf...re/3838/page/2

Reverend Dr

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]

W/

15 Jun 2010 at 20:28 - 56

It is very true what Scott wrote about how posting on forums is a type of PvP, it is you carefully crafting your words to engage in direct confrontation with other users. However he has grossly overestimated the amount of "class loyalty" players have and is quick to dismiss any type of player feedback as having the intent of "make my class stronger and make their class weaker."

This will be more true in traditional MMO's where it takes months to get a character towards the endgame, but even in those games it is not at all uncommon for the more active players (who tend to be the ones who post the most on forums) to have multiple characters. Especially in this game where a character can get to end-game content in a couple of days and PvP characters can be created in a minute.

Though what he has said about trying to avoid nerfs (though he specifies a class, which he is a bit stuck in the class-structure framing) it very true. Players just cannot stand getting a toy taken away from them. It doesn't matter how long they had it (see Mind Wrack), nor does it matter how grossly overpowered something was (see every damn shadowform thread), YOU TOOK AWAY MY TOY! This is largely why Nightfall did so much damage to the health of GW. Faction's balancing philosophy was based on the idea of introducing underpowered skills and slowly buffing them (didn't work as well as planned). Nightfall's philosophy was introduce overpowered skills then slowly tone them back, which gave us the majority of the 'power creep' problem and also gave Anet no way to address it without massive backlash. This is also a problem with the elite skills buff, then the paragon/dervish buff, then the tactics buff, now the mesmer buffs.

Yeah, this is a cheap shot at the PvE community, but us terribly immature PvP players have taken nerfs so much more gracefully.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

15 Jun 2010 at 21:23 - 57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

...Calling imbalance on imbalanced stuff is normal.

Too bad you don't see the same vigor when it comes to copy and pasting UNDERUSED skills/builds and requesting a buff.

Not to mention the latest nerf requests are getting more and more thoughtless and ridiculous. DoA NORMAL mode that still takes over an hour is now "imbalanced"? What happened to hard mode?

Essence Snow

Unbridled Enthusiasm!

Join Date: Nov 2009

EST

DPR

15 Jun 2010 at 21:38 - 58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Yeah, this is a cheap shot at the PvE community, but us terribly immature PvP players have taken nerfs so much more gracefully.

I hope this is sarcastic. Being graceful is about the last thing the PvP community has going for it. Some skills yes like SF had relevant PvE issues which required it to be nerfed, but most of the PvE nerfs that the PvE community gets upset about are b/c of PvP concerns. If you see the issue here then you are not alone. Heck, look at the endless Paragon nerfs due to secondary use in PvP that effected PvE. Now the Paragon has become like single layer onion in PvE. It has been aptly noted that the PvE is vastly larger than the PvP community, yet most updates are due to the very vocal few whom reside in the minority. Like Scott noted: eventual PvE/PvP spilt is the only way to quell the "storm".
I for one could care less about GW PvP. I just don't like it when changes carry over to the PvE side of the game. You are bound to hear more complaints when this does occur based simply on the sheer fact that there are soo many more PvE players. It's a pretty easy numbers game.
Back on topic......Like most have already said...it's NM, using full con-sets, and it's not fast. The same things can be achieved using most any other build/s. I am not sure how the skill is used/performs in PvP nor could I care, as long as if it is changed in PvE, it is not done b/c of PvP issues.

Del

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2009

In a van, down by the river.

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO if I know, ask Lynette.

R/

15 Jun 2010 at 22:40 - 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

I hope this is sarcastic. Being graceful is about the last thing the PvP community has going for it.

PvErs in SJM, GtoB, Ascalon, and ToA. PvErs are just as immature as PvPers.

Life Bringing

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

Fissure of Woe

[LOD]/[GS]/[DL]/[LOD*]

N/P

16 Jun 2010 at 05:03 - 60

If you've looked at the trend of armbraces since DwG was buffed, you'd see that it is a fairly large problem. Now, it doesn't really affect me at this point because i have no armbraces(lolban), but armbraces in the ~10 ecto range are *not* good. I know they're not there yet, but there will come a time in the next few months where the price of armbraces will hit that mark. People will suddenly realize that any random group with no real coordination that can clear doa is a problem. Even worse, as certain people start to think that they're amazing and want faster times, the rank requirement will be set at 10/8, and as previously stated, people will learn that rt/me are the fastest and most reliable options. Class and rank discrimination is a no-no that anet is already not fond of, and once that becomes bad enough, the nerf will come and beat the crap out of DwG. Unfortunately, the damage will already be done at this point.

All i can say is, have fun with your "WTS Armbrace 10e"

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

16 Jun 2010 at 07:37 - 61

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

If you've looked at the trend of armbraces since DwG was buffed, you'd see that it is a fairly large problem. Now, it doesn't really affect me at this point because i have no armbraces(lolban), but armbraces in the ~10 ecto range are *not* good. I know they're not there yet, but there will come a time in the next few months where the price of armbraces will hit that mark. People will suddenly realize that any random group with no real coordination that can clear doa is a problem. Even worse, as certain people start to think that they're amazing and want faster times, the rank requirement will be set at 10/8, and as previously stated, people will learn that rt/me are the fastest and most reliable options. Class and rank discrimination is a no-no that anet is already not fond of, and once that becomes bad enough, the nerf will come and beat the crap out of DwG. Unfortunately, the damage will already be done at this point.

All i can say is, have fun with your "WTS Armbrace 10e"

Price of items does not prove anything. If anything the price of armbraces before was inflated because of the lack of pugs even in NORMAL mode. You know, the mode where the average players should have some decent rate of success because hard mode is for the "pro" players...or so people on here say when they were QQing about Ursan/CoP/SF/600+Smite...

Morphy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Netherlands

Not going to keep up with that anymore

R/

16 Jun 2010 at 08:59 - 62

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Too bad you don't see the same vigor when it comes to copy and pasting UNDERUSED skills/builds and requesting a buff.

Because buffs are much more harmful to balance and the game as a whole if implemented poorly than nerfs. The worst thing that can happen if you overnerf something is that it won't see use anymore. Big whoop. You lose one skill. The worst thing that can happen if you overbuff something in PvP is that it can dumb down the metagame and in PvE that it completely dominates the metagame for the next 3 years while also making the game more easy. I don't really care that much about PvE skill balance because I believe the problem lies in the mob composition and poor AI, but if these were done well, overpowered shit like this skill wouldn't have a role in it.

Quote:

Not to mention the latest nerf requests are getting more and more thoughtless and ridiculous. DoA NORMAL mode that still takes over an hour is now "imbalanced"? What happened to hard mode?

You can still get stuff for Armbraces in NM, I believe the point is that an elite area shouldn't be possible with mindless builds such as these.

Essence Snow

Unbridled Enthusiasm!

Join Date: Nov 2009

EST

DPR

16 Jun 2010 at 11:18 - 63

Quote:

You can still get stuff for Armbraces in NM, I believe the point is that an elite area shouldn't be possible with mindless builds such as these.

The fact remains that it is used in NM (nm is mindless anyhow) and takes over 1 hr-1 1/2 hrs. DoA HM can be cleared in <40mins in HM NOT using DwG. Which shouldn't be possible? Through repetition everything becomes "mindless".

Some people are simply upset that their stock-pile of ambraces is not retaining it's value. Personnaly I think it is great that it has breathed some life into DoA. Are people upset that UW and FoW can be cleared in NM in 1hr +? There are dungeons that can be cleared in HM, that drop high-end weaps in <10mins not using DwG. (I think we all know what is still used)

Not speaking for PvP...(there must be a PvP issue since Morphy is in on the issue), but in PvE, the only ones upset should be the DoA SC guilds and those hoarding braces. I have no sympathy for those who complain b/c of greed.

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

16 Jun 2010 at 11:34 - 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Just in the last month or so I've seen...

Nerf Soul Reaping
Nerf Energy Storage (ER)
Nerf SoS
Nerf Mark of Pain (And whatever else is used in Manlyway)
Nerf Critical Agility and Warrior's Endurance
Nerf Jagged Strike + Fox Fang + DB combo chain
Nerf Shadow form more
Nerf Assassin's promise
Nerf "YMLD!" + EVAS + "FH!"
Nerf Discord(Way)
Nerf DwG

People are basically just picking every decent build that doesn't fit in convention definition of "balanced" team and starts whining about it. I mean nearly every build in the "great" category on PvXWiki had been asked for nerf in the last two months, its like people are just looking up every good build on that site, Ctrl C + Ctrl V, and typing nerf after that.

This is the results of Anet giving in to whining so many times without actually balancing the game. Now everyone are jumping on the QQ bandwagon hoping they'll get a piece of "screwing with other people's gameplay"

This 110%. God you people and your QQ posts are annoying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

If you've looked at the trend of armbraces since DwG was buffed, you'd see that it is a fairly large problem. Now, it doesn't really affect me at this point because i have no armbraces(lolban), but armbraces in the ~10 ecto range are *not* good. I know they're not there yet, but there will come a time in the next few months where the price of armbraces will hit that mark. People will suddenly realize that any random group with no real coordination that can clear doa is a problem. Even worse, as certain people start to think that they're amazing and want faster times, the rank requirement will be set at 10/8, and as previously stated, people will learn that rt/me are the fastest and most reliable options. Class and rank discrimination is a no-no that anet is already not fond of, and once that becomes bad enough, the nerf will come and beat the crap out of DwG. Unfortunately, the damage will already be done at this point.

All i can say is, have fun with your "WTS Armbrace 10e"

Oh no the world is coming to an end. Armbraces are dropping in price. Is this the only thing you care about? Show me in writing where it states armbraces in a "player driven" economy is supposed to have a fixed price where deflation doesn't/can't exist. If you think having cheap armbraces is bad for the game you are dead wrong. It's only bad for a "very" small portion of the player base who have hoarded them. For everyone else it's win win. I've hoarded armbraces too but you don't see me crying a river now do you? This community never seems to give up on this crap.

PS: I will have fun with my 10e armbraces and my 5e armbraces. It's makes zero difference to me. It's still a bloody effin video game. GW is srs business ZOMGWTFBBQHAXORZ!

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

16 Jun 2010 at 12:20 - 65

I thought DwG was only run in Normal Mode in DoA? I thought it wasn't very effective in Hard Mode in DoA? I thought if you had to resort to Normal Mode for a certain build it isn't OP.

Meh.

Morphy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Netherlands

Not going to keep up with that anymore

R/

16 Jun 2010 at 13:19 - 66

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

The fact remains that it is used in NM (nm is mindless anyhow) and takes over 1 hr-1 1/2 hrs. DoA HM can be cleared in <40mins in HM NOT using DwG. Which shouldn't be possible? Through repetition everything becomes "mindless".

Some people are simply upset that their stock-pile of ambraces is not retaining it's value. Personnaly I think it is great that it has breathed some life into DoA. Are people upset that UW and FoW can be cleared in NM in 1hr +? There are dungeons that can be cleared in HM, that drop high-end weaps in <10mins not using DwG. (I think we all know what is still used)

Not speaking for PvP...(there must be a PvP issue since Morphy is in on the issue), but in PvE, the only ones upset should be the DoA SC guilds and those hoarding braces. I have no sympathy for those who complain b/c of greed.

(Good) PvP doesn't become mindless through repetition, it gets more interesting the better a player gets at it as he understands more and more of the game. The same should be true for PvE. GW PvE's complete lack of a learning curve (it's basically a flat line) is caused by the lack of proper AI and poor mob composition. That's a pretty fundamental problem and the reason I think any "PvE skillbalance" in the current situation is a waste of time.

In my opinion, the elite areas are the best place to start improving the AI and mob composition because they're supposed to be challenging. Only after that the poorly balanced skills come into the picture. Eventually, if reaching a challenging and enjoyable game is the goal, these have to be balanced. If that's not the goal, I really couldn't care less about how overpowered skills are. Make them even more powercreeped and crazy overpowered for all I care.

There currently aren't any serious DwG issues in GvG that I'm aware of so I'm not here to adress that.

Concerning economy stuff, I have a lack of interest and knowledge to properly discuss that.

Horace Slughorn

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2008

Experientia Docet [OHX], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA], We Gat Dis [HRUU]

W/

16 Jun 2010 at 13:50 - 67

My armbraces aint worth what they used to be. So I'm for the nerf. honestly

micut12

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

Bucharest, Romania

A/

16 Jun 2010 at 14:29 - 68

Dude who the fck do u think u are acting all mighty and telling ANet what to nerf? If u want ANet to nerf DwG then i want ANet to perma ban u, just by guessing ur a guy who cant even use DwG
/not signed

kiddster

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2007

Ohio

Republic Of Shadows [RoS]

W/

16 Jun 2010 at 14:53 - 69

/signed .....this is like the days of easy chaos planes farm. areas like this shouldn't be this easy to clear. Even if this has made more people wanting to do doa...they could of before by making a mesmer/necro/ele/monk/sin and farming r7-8 lb like most of the players did to even join most doa guilds.

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

16 Jun 2010 at 16:33 - 70

Wow listen to you Kiddster. Singling out alot of the demographic.

You expect for people to play happily in the Domain of Anguish; you must farm Lightbringer points elsewhere, join a DoASC-specific guild and acquire a certain profession to play? That sounds terribly elitist not to mention fag logic.

Fahhhh

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

UD

A/

16 Jun 2010 at 17:05 - 71

So what if PUG's can now clear DoA in NM? I would think thats a good thing, makes elite areas more friendly to the casual player. Plus I like the idea of having PUG's in elite areas again. I miss those days.

As for armbrace prices all I have to say is investing in a commodity is dangerous as prices are subject to fluctuation. If you invested in armbraces and the price crashes...well sucks to be you.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

16 Jun 2010 at 17:05 - 72

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I thought if you had to resort to Normal Mode for a certain build it isn't OP.

The Domain of Anguish is supposed to be an elite area.
That is, it is supposed to be difficult and require a bit of skill and coordination to beat, even in NM.

vandevere

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2007

The Great State of Denial

W/Mo

16 Jun 2010 at 17:24 - 73

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The Domain of Anguish is supposed to be an elite area.
That is, it is supposed to be difficult and require a bit of skill and coordination to beat, even in NM.

In other words, keep the peons out, so they don't get their grubby little fingers on your stash...

Honestly, if that's the only reason you're demanding a nerf-to reinforce the barriers between the elite and the peons-you have no ground for your demand.

People have the right to cobble together any build they want. And, if it works, well, good for them!

The Build isn't OP, otherwise it would be rolling through NM much faster.

There's only two reasons you're demanding this nerf.

1)Jealousy 'cause you don't want the peons in your playground

2)Greed because, as stated above, you don't want the peons getting what you think belongs to you.

However, we have all paid for this game-the elites and the peons alike-so they have as much right to be in the DoA as you do.

Further, this nerf demand can very easily be viewed as Class Warfare; the wealthy elite trying to get the developers to enact nerfs for the sole purpose of keeping the lesser folk out of their playground. I sincerely hope the developers don't listen to you this time. But, if they do, I'll end this post with a timely reminder of what happened when a great nation tried to do that to its people...

Bastille Day.

Need I say more?

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

16 Jun 2010 at 17:57 - 74

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandevere

In other words, keep the peons out, so they don't get their grubby little fingers on your stash...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

An ad hominem, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), is an attempt to persuade which links the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise. The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy. The argumentum ad hominem is not always fallacious, for in some instances questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.

I don't do the Domain of Anguish very often. In fact, I've hardly been there and have never faced Mallyx (but I've done the prerequisite quests). I don't care how many people do or what their rewards are.

The Domain of Anguish is atrociously designed. The only way your average player is going to get through is to join a team of good people or people running a strong team build that can carry them through, or for them to resort to some gimmick or AI exploit - the latter is more common.

The fix to this is a redesign. Average players should be able to get through (slowly and with difficult and a very real threat of failure) while stronger players would be able to clear it much more quickly and efficiently.

Despite the fact that a redesign isn't ever to going to happen, I do not advocate near mindless builds that allow clearing. Players should have to learn how to actually play the game and why things work before successfully completing an elite area.
The requirement of competence is not an unfair one.

vandevere

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2007

The Great State of Denial

W/Mo

16 Jun 2010 at 18:05 - 75

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I don't do the Domain of Anguish very often. In fact, I've hardly been there and have never faced Mallyx (but I've done the prerequisite quests). I don't care how many people do or what their rewards are.

The Domain of Anguish is atrociously designed. The only way your average player is going to get through is to join a team of good people or people running a strong team build that can carry them through, or for them to resort to some gimmick or AI exploit - the latter is more common.

The fix to this is a redesign. Average players should be able to get through (slowly and with difficult and a very real threat of failure) while stronger players would be able to clear it much more quickly and efficiently.

Despite the fact that a redesign isn't ever to going to happen, I do not advocate near mindless builds that allow clearing. Players should have to learn how to actually play the game and why things work before successfully completing an elite area.
The requirement of competence is not an unfair one.

First off, the OP-ness of a build should really be the only criteria for whether a build gets nerfed or not. By those criteria-seeing as it's NM, and it still takes more than an hour to complete-DWG isn't OP.

So, you would like the guys to play a little better according to your own, personal-and, might I add, highly subjective standards. That's all well and good.

But you don't have the right to demand nerfs to force other players to meet your standards of gameplay. And, whether you deny it or not, that is what you're demanding.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

16 Jun 2010 at 18:26 - 76

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandevere

First off, the OP-ness of a build should really be the only criteria for whether a build gets nerfed or not. By those criteria-seeing as it's NM, and it still takes more than an hour to complete-DWG isn't OP.

If it enables incompetent players to complete an elite area, then unless the time it takes is huge, it's broken. 1-2 hours isn't huge - especially if it's for the entirety of the DoA (minus perhaps Mallyx).
Anything that enables those same incompetent players to complete an elite area in Hard Mode is both broken and over powered.

Broken ≠ Over powered.

I don't know anything about the DWG build, how long it takes or what it actually does. But if it fulfills the above, then it needs changing.

vandevere

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2007

The Great State of Denial

W/Mo

16 Jun 2010 at 18:40 - 77

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If it enables incompetent players to complete an elite area, then unless the time it takes is huge, it's broken. 1-2 hours isn't huge - especially if it's for the entirety of the DoA (minus perhaps Mallyx).
Anything that enables those same incompetent players to complete an elite area in Hard Mode is both broken and over powered.

Broken ≠ Over powered.

I don't know anything about the DWG build, how long it takes or what it actually does. But if it fulfills the above, then it needs changing.

First, you have to prove the above-stated incompetence. And you can't use circular reasoning, and say that their using DWG is proof of incompetence. I need other proof, and not subjective "proof".

You claim the pugs are incompetent. I need empirical, scientifically derived evidence of your claim

Besides, the good players have HM anyway. You claim you want DoA to be active; and it is now...

Further, as you have stated, you say you don't know anything about the DWG build. Don't you think you should know a little more about the skill you want to have nerfed?

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

16 Jun 2010 at 18:46 - 78

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandevere

First, you have to prove the above-stated incompetence. And you can't use circular reasoning, and say that their using DWG is proof of incompetence. I need other proof, and not subjective "proof".

No. It needs defining.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandevere

You claim the pugs are incompetent. I need empirical, scientifically derived evidence of your claim

Besides, the good players have HM anyway. You claim you want DoA to be active; and it is now...

I have claimed neither of these.

own age myname

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Minnesota

[TAS]

R/

16 Jun 2010 at 22:34 - 79

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If it enables incompetent players to complete an elite area, then unless the time it takes is huge, it's broken. 1-2 hours isn't huge - especially if it's for the entirety of the DoA (minus perhaps Mallyx).

Believe me, incompetent players aren't going anywhere in DoA. PUGs fail plenty, trust me.

Del

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2009

In a van, down by the river.

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO if I know, ask Lynette.

R/

16 Jun 2010 at 22:56 - 80

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

The fact remains that it is used in NM (nm is mindless anyhow) and takes over 1 hr-1 1/2 hrs. DoA HM can be cleared in <40mins in HM NOT using DwG. Which shouldn't be possible? Through repetition everything becomes "mindless".

All of pve is mindless.