my main is a paragon, i love paragons, but sadly they are outclassed by other professions except in their one infamous build - imbagon.
unlike other damage-dealing professions, paragons have no way to deal AoE damage which leaves them inferior to all other damage dealers. Paragons and rangers are also unable to benefit from some common physical-damage buffs such as Strength of Honor which only widens the gap. unlike other support professions, paragons lack the energy to be useful without constantly attacking (and being subject to dodge, miss, block, blind, etc) in order to gain adrenaline, and many of the skills which he would use to support the team have been nerfed into uselessness because of pvp concerns.
I see the paragon as having three major issues:
1) lack of AoE. *ALL* other professions can deliver some form of AoE damage... even the monk. :-\ please fix so that the paragons get a fair chance.
2) motivation. much has been said on this topic. even if the pvp versions of these skills were left alone, fixing the pve versions would help.
3) useless skills. some (many?) paragon skills are so conditional they they will never see use. Mesmer suffered from the same issue and the recent mesmer update was incredible... please give paragons the same treatment.
Dervishes could use some love as well, but at least they can do a decent job at their primary function, dealing damage. In the mesmer update notes you mentioned that paragon and dervish updates were in the works, I would like to encourage publishing such updates sooner rather than later and push a second update if that is deemed necessary. gw2 is on the way and if the updates are delayed too long it will be too late to make any difference.
thanks for listening.
Dear Arenanet: Please expedite paragon fixes
Khomet Si Netjer
Lishy
Well, if it makes you feel any better, there are some people on the inside who're Paragon users a lot. I myself am an ex-Paragon main, and I have a lot of hope in ANET to make the appropriate fixes. But don't hold your breath for it to come before WiK is over since I assume it is using a lot of resources. In the meantime, you still got your Sy for high end areas, and daggerspam for more easy areas, right?
Cuilan
I don't think Guild Wars 2's release will matter. There will be people who will want to play a good game than a game where apparently everything dies from the slightest hit.
FoxBat
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
I don't think Guild Wars 2's release will matter. There will be people who will want to play a good game than a game where apparently everything dies from the slightest hit.
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Ka Tet
The problem with para's, as with a few other classes, is that they are never quite in-balance. They are either inferior to other classes or have broken aspects, typically via shout synergy. I built a god-mode para-way a few years back for HA. It literally only lost in one of two ways: people got bored and left their keyboards; or someone got lucky on our ghost in halls. This was post-Incoming nerf, pre-FoR, GftE, WY nerfs.
Khomet Si Netjer
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Originally Posted by Lishy
Well, if it makes you feel any better, there are some people on the inside who're Paragon users a lot. I myself am an ex-Paragon main, and I have a lot of hope in ANET to make the appropriate fixes. But don't hold your breath for it to come before WiK is over since I assume it is using a lot of resources. In the meantime, you still got your Sy for high end areas, and daggerspam for more easy areas, right?
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i have done every elite area with my paragon, vanquished everywhere, done every mission and dungeon in hardmode, etc... so, not much left to be done. I have plenty of builds that I created to make the profession useful, but sadly most of them make heavy use of secondaries because the primary profession is underpowered. For example I have a Hundred Blades variant that can deliver near 250dps with Strength of Honor from a hero... and I solo farm with a SoS/summoning build... hell I even had a Cryway sort of build! To get the most out of my paragon I'm forced to rely on skills from other professions. Is that the way it should be? It's getting late in the game for major changes but I have high hopes for the upcoming paragon and dervish updates, I really liked what they did with the mesmer update.
AlsPals
They cant really rush this one, tbh. I remember what it was like with Warrior like damage, passive defense, and endless buffs before. Paragons are STILL unbelievable, just outshined by alot of other cheesy stuff. Give it time.
Lanier
My ex-main is a paragon as well. In fact, I still have more VQed and more titles on my para than i do on my new main (my mesmer). I really would like to see the paragons get their update sooner than later as well. Sadly, it seems as though with the manpower available to Anet, it is necessary for them to take forever with new skill balance updates. If only they would devote a few people from working on GW2 to GW1, but this isn't going to happen.
As for buffing the paragon, I agree on points 2 and 3 in your main post. I remember back a long time ago, motivation was a viable (sub-par, yes, but at least viable) form of healing. Power creep left it behind though, and in some cases, motivation even got unnecessarily nerfed in PvE (SoR and Mending refrain...). In addition to this, I definitely agree that so many of the paragon's support skills are way too conditional to be used in general PvE settings, and some are too specialized to be used in specialized teams. I mean what was Anet thinking when they designed the motivation chants that activate on signets... If a skill is going to be so specialized, then there at least needs to be a way for the paragon using the chant to control when the effect goes off.
As for point 1, I really don't think that is necessary. You can always just apply splinter weapon to a paragon to get some AoE damage and I don't really think that a spear wielder should be able to directly do AoE damage (throwing multiple spears at once doesn't really make since...).
As for buffing the paragon, I agree on points 2 and 3 in your main post. I remember back a long time ago, motivation was a viable (sub-par, yes, but at least viable) form of healing. Power creep left it behind though, and in some cases, motivation even got unnecessarily nerfed in PvE (SoR and Mending refrain...). In addition to this, I definitely agree that so many of the paragon's support skills are way too conditional to be used in general PvE settings, and some are too specialized to be used in specialized teams. I mean what was Anet thinking when they designed the motivation chants that activate on signets... If a skill is going to be so specialized, then there at least needs to be a way for the paragon using the chant to control when the effect goes off.
As for point 1, I really don't think that is necessary. You can always just apply splinter weapon to a paragon to get some AoE damage and I don't really think that a spear wielder should be able to directly do AoE damage (throwing multiple spears at once doesn't really make since...).
jimbo32
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Originally Posted by Lanier
As for point 1, I really don't think that is necessary. You can always just apply splinter weapon to a paragon to get some AoE damage and I don't really think that a spear wielder should be able to directly do AoE damage (throwing multiple spears at once doesn't really make since...).
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The Paragon (using the Imba build) is just ok for most PvE. In six-man or four-man areas in HM (or in the current WiK content), the Para's weakness really shows. If you're H/H'ing, every slot in your team build is important, and 99% of the time you can't really afford a mediocre support class like a Para. This especially sucks when the Para in question is your own character, so your team is gimped from the beginning.
I've been doing the WiK content on four characters - my (main) Warrior, my Ranger, my Assassin and my Para. I find that I really notice the difference between the Para and the other classes. Not that mobs don't drop, just that it usually takes longer and my team takes more of a beating. So yeah, I hope something gets done sooner rather than later.
Esprit
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Originally Posted by jimbo32
Yeah, and Eles throwing around balls of fire or monks summoning pillars of light from the heavens makes perfect sense of course. If it makes sense for Rangers to have Barrage and Volley, there's no reason a Para shouldn't have something similar (when was the last time you saw a competition archer shoot six arrows at once?).
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Axel Zinfandel
Paragons an amazing class that isn't necessarily underpowered in their functionality so much as their choices as a primary class. Their main problems, as you stated, is in the sheer number of conditional/situational, and downright ugly skills, not to mention that they don't have a lot of solid outside synergy (which isn't so much a problem with skill synergy so much as role synergy. Paragons pretty much stand alone in what exactly they do).
AoE is a distant, distant problem, and in fact I wouldn't even list it as a problem. Paragons could use some solid DPS choices (which they already -kind of- do), but it should not be so significant as to give Paragons the same type of power creep that would take emphasis away from what they ACTUALLY do and their role (AKA the same type of skill change/creap that made Dervishes go from enchantment juggling to.. whatever the heck they do now.).
If AoE is to be done, I hope they keep it on a strictly Elite Skill basis. I personally wouldn't mind seeing Cruel Spear be changed into something like a mini-Jadoth's Storm of Judgment. Keeping it to elite skills would ensure that the focus on the build be probably more offensive in nature, and not just a way for imbagon to slap AoE damage. Also keep in mind that the Spear's damage has the largest unmodified DPS of any 1-handed weapon.
I don't think WiK will have any, or at least have little effect on their skill balancing. It seems to me like a lot of WiK was made and planned already, and only implemented until now. In other words, I get the impression they probably finished most of WiK months before this thing ever went live.
AoE is a distant, distant problem, and in fact I wouldn't even list it as a problem. Paragons could use some solid DPS choices (which they already -kind of- do), but it should not be so significant as to give Paragons the same type of power creep that would take emphasis away from what they ACTUALLY do and their role (AKA the same type of skill change/creap that made Dervishes go from enchantment juggling to.. whatever the heck they do now.).
If AoE is to be done, I hope they keep it on a strictly Elite Skill basis. I personally wouldn't mind seeing Cruel Spear be changed into something like a mini-Jadoth's Storm of Judgment. Keeping it to elite skills would ensure that the focus on the build be probably more offensive in nature, and not just a way for imbagon to slap AoE damage. Also keep in mind that the Spear's damage has the largest unmodified DPS of any 1-handed weapon.
I don't think WiK will have any, or at least have little effect on their skill balancing. It seems to me like a lot of WiK was made and planned already, and only implemented until now. In other words, I get the impression they probably finished most of WiK months before this thing ever went live.
shoyon456
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Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
I see the paragon as having three major issues:
1) lack of AoE. *ALL* other professions can deliver some form of AoE damage... even the monk. :-\ please fix so that the paragons get a fair chance. 2) motivation. much has been said on this topic. even if the pvp versions of these skills were left alone, fixing the pve versions would help. 3) useless skills. some (many?) paragon skills are so conditional they they will never see use. Mesmer suffered from the same issue and the recent mesmer update was incredible... please give paragons the same treatment. Dervishes could use some love as well, but at least they can do a decent job at their primary function, dealing damage. In the mesmer update notes you mentioned that paragon and dervish updates were in the works, I would like to encourage publishing such updates sooner rather than later and push a second update if that is deemed necessary. gw2 is on the way and if the updates are delayed too long it will be too late to make any difference. |
As far as GW2 goes, scythes and spears are gone. They might as well just remove both from GW1 since they don't give a flying fuggut about them (semi kidding). I'm not buying GW2 anyways, so when and what they do won't influence that at all for me.
Lanier
scythes and spears are gone in GW 2? Are they getting rid of the paragon and dervish professions? If so, then they better have other professions replacing them. I mean I can see why scythes are kind of a wierd weapon to have in a game, but spears were some of the most common Pre-gunpowder weapons, and it really makes sense to have spears be in the game at least as an option for the warrior if the paragon isn't going to be in gw2.
belshazaarswrath
Telling Anet to hurry up with that update is just as effective as telling your dog to shit in the toilet.
Spiritz
Its always weird to me how anet figures on classes and their skills.
Mesmers and paragons always seem to be the only 2 classes who make no sense.
As someone stated about other classes its sort of logical what their skills are but where did anet come up with mesmer and paragon skills - a mesmer in my books is a profession who can mesmerise the foes - hypnotise etc.Paragon seems weird and seems more a paladin but skill wise ...
I think apart from melee classes the paragon has to constantly attack for andren and why they decided paragons like warriors have to have the worse energy regen going i dont know.They have high armor like melee but lets make them spear chuckers .
Why not just make them warrior wannabes and let them use a sword not a toothpick.
A good game requires the classes you give the ability to be of equal use on the battle field - except that anet makes sure some classes are hindered.
An example would be to go on to pvx wiki and in general builds just look at the 10 classes and how many builds there are for each - some have just a few.
If everyone went by that we`d all be warriors/sins/monks/ele mainly and im sure if new players looked there then they do same , why play a profession thats hardly any builds ?
If paras are to be made more usable then they have to be either more offensive with a sword etc and have better skills for that or be support with better support skills and energy - imagine a healing monk who has to get andren just to cast Woh on you lol.
Mesmers and paragons always seem to be the only 2 classes who make no sense.
As someone stated about other classes its sort of logical what their skills are but where did anet come up with mesmer and paragon skills - a mesmer in my books is a profession who can mesmerise the foes - hypnotise etc.Paragon seems weird and seems more a paladin but skill wise ...
I think apart from melee classes the paragon has to constantly attack for andren and why they decided paragons like warriors have to have the worse energy regen going i dont know.They have high armor like melee but lets make them spear chuckers .
Why not just make them warrior wannabes and let them use a sword not a toothpick.
A good game requires the classes you give the ability to be of equal use on the battle field - except that anet makes sure some classes are hindered.
An example would be to go on to pvx wiki and in general builds just look at the 10 classes and how many builds there are for each - some have just a few.
If everyone went by that we`d all be warriors/sins/monks/ele mainly and im sure if new players looked there then they do same , why play a profession thats hardly any builds ?
If paras are to be made more usable then they have to be either more offensive with a sword etc and have better skills for that or be support with better support skills and energy - imagine a healing monk who has to get andren just to cast Woh on you lol.
Lanier
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Originally Posted by jimbo32
Yeah, and Eles throwing around balls of fire or monks summoning pillars of light from the heavens makes perfect sense of course. If it makes sense for Rangers to have Barrage and Volley, there's no reason a Para shouldn't have something similar (when was the last time you saw a competition archer shoot six arrows at once?).
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shoyon456
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Originally Posted by Lanier
Bad examples FTL. Elementalists throwing a ball of fire makes perfect since. In fact, when I think of the stereotypical fantasy elementalist, a fireball is the first thing that comes to mind. Same with a monk smiting down an opponent. It makes perfect sense for a monk who is smiting an opponent to do so by calling down a god's wrath from heaven. Hell, even the barrage example is a bad one. There are other cases in movies and games where archers have been able to shoot multiple arrows at a time (legolas for example).
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This isn't about making the Para/Derv most desirable, its about making them just as desirable as other classes. Again, my experience with Paras is limited, but I know Wars/Sins/Rangers can all use scythes better than Dervs and that Mysticism does little for Dervs other than some gimmicky forms.
EDIT @ Del: I'm not saying Paras should necessarily have access to AoE. As I have said before and apparently must say again, I do not play my Para enough to say one way or the other. However, I can say that at least the OP is arguing that this would make them just as desirable as other classes for grouping purposes. The other person's counter argument was that it "didn't make sense." Unlike the OP's practical reason, the responder's reason has very little weight in a fantasy game.
Del
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Originally Posted by shoyon456
Using "what makes sense" in a video game is not valid most of the time. You need an actual balance reason why Para's should not have access to AoE damage skills.
This isn't about making the Para/Derv most desirable, its about making them just as desirable as other classes. Again, my experience with Paras is limited, but I know Wars/Sins/Rangers can all use scythes better than Dervs and that Mysticism does little for Dervs other than some gimmicky forms. |
Horace Slughorn
Paras and Dervs, with the release of Nightfall, were a little late to the game. I think with their limited skills and late release, they never really had the opportunity to carve out their niche roles in the way that the other "core" professions did. I doubt they will ever be as prolific or desired as their comrades, but I still enjoy playing them as they are today.
belshazaarswrath
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Originally Posted by Horace Slughorn
Paras and Dervs, with the release of Nightfall, were a little late to the game. I think with their limited skills and late release, they never really had the opportunity to carve out their niche roles in the way that the other "core" professions did. I doubt they will ever be as prolific or desired as their comrades, but I still enjoy playing them as they are today.
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Mesmers have been around since day one and they are STILL arguably outclassed by all other classes that came out at the same time.
Del
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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
Assassins and Ritualists are meta right now and they came late in the game too (not as late but were not around since the beginning).
Mesmers have been around since day one and they are STILL arguably outclassed by all other classes that came out at the same time. |
Raccoon
I find that the biggest problem in both PvE and PvP is that Paragons use adrenaline for a good 80% of their skills. The fact that an older, more commonly used profession (warrior) uses the same mechanics is what pushes Paragons into the shadows. Not to mention that some skills require 7 or 8 adrenaline just so that everyone in your party gets healed for 20HP or lose a hex 
I don't think skill changes will help Paragons now, I think they either need a new form of energy, or change leadership to dramatically increase adrenaline gains.
However, I have a sneaking suspicion that Paragons won't be making a comeback in GW2... I think the Monk/Paragon hybrid is what we should be expecting
I don't think skill changes will help Paragons now, I think they either need a new form of energy, or change leadership to dramatically increase adrenaline gains.
However, I have a sneaking suspicion that Paragons won't be making a comeback in GW2... I think the Monk/Paragon hybrid is what we should be expecting
Lanier
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Originally Posted by shoyon456
EDIT @ Del: I'm not saying Paras should necessarily have access to AoE. As I have said before and apparently must say again, I do not play my Para enough to say one way or the other. However, I can say that at least the OP is arguing that this would make them just as desirable as other classes for grouping purposes. The other person's counter argument was that it "didn't make sense." Unlike the OP's practical reason, the responder's reason has very little weight in a fantasy game.
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MisterB
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Originally Posted by Raccoon
I don't think skill changes will help Paragons now, I think they either need a new form of energy, or change leadership to dramatically increase adrenaline gains.
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The update will happen when it's done. Asking for it sooner isn't going to make it happen, and you shouldn't really want that if you think about it for a moment or two. Unless you like incomplete or broken updates full of bugs.
Lishy
Wait, people are saying Leadership isn't good for energy? Wow. Whatever happened to "Infinite energy" and being the one profession to spam Searing Flames better than Eles themselves?
Ugh
My biggest issue with paragons is that they're damn near impossible to balance; they're overpowered and underpowered at the same time, depending on party size. The only real way I see to fix this is to give them some skills that scale effectiveness with the number of allies (kind of like the distribution of benefits in effects like Shield of Saint Viktor) and skills that apply to the entire party rather than each individual member.
Those skill types could be hard to balance, however. Making Anthem of Flame into something like Chant. (10 seconds.) The next 4...7...8 attacks skills used by party members in earshot inflict Burning condition (1...3...3 second[s]). would probably be OP in small parties and solo quests, but useless in large ones, depending on Leadership level. Although, that problem could probably be solved by reducing the duration to 5ish seconds. Meh.
Paragons weren't meant to have AoE damage. Classes have niches in this game, so every class having nuking power would be quite redundant (yes, I know the niche system is sort of screwed up with things like ritualists, but there's no need to make it worse). The Paragon's niche is obviously party support, so that should be buffed instead of damage.
The tactics update has put dervs on par with warrior and sin scythe builds (rangers have always been worst of the four in scythe use). Warriors have high armor, can easily spam, have SY, and have armor penetration; sins have high armor, can easily spam, have DW, and have shittons of crits; and dervs have permablocking, can spam, have SY, have lots o' crits, and have runes.
"Arguably" being the keyword. Mesmers are great in PvE now (they were still good before, too) and have plenty of options; they're cetainly better off than rangers and eles, with their 'good build counts' at 0 and 1, respectively.
Those skill types could be hard to balance, however. Making Anthem of Flame into something like Chant. (10 seconds.) The next 4...7...8 attacks skills used by party members in earshot inflict Burning condition (1...3...3 second[s]). would probably be OP in small parties and solo quests, but useless in large ones, depending on Leadership level. Although, that problem could probably be solved by reducing the duration to 5ish seconds. Meh.
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Originally Posted by shoyon456
Using "what makes sense" in a video game is not valid most of the time. You need an actual balance reason why Para's should not have access to AoE damage skills.
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| I know Wars/Sins/Rangers can all use scythes better than Dervs and that Mysticism does little for Dervs other than some gimmicky forms. |
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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
Mesmers have been around since day one and they are STILL arguably outclassed by all other classes that came out at the same time.
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Imaginos
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Originally Posted by Lanier
scythes and spears are gone in GW 2? Are they getting rid of the paragon and dervish professions? If so, then they better have other professions replacing them. I mean I can see why scythes are kind of a wierd weapon to have in a game, but spears were some of the most common Pre-gunpowder weapons, and it really makes sense to have spears be in the game at least as an option for the warrior if the paragon isn't going to be in gw2.
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belshazaarswrath
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Originally Posted by Del
Even pre buff, mesmers were stronger than eles in hm due to armour ignoring damage and punishment hexes. The only reason mesmers were ever mistaken for being bad is because bad players think if they can't constantly roll their faces acros their keyboard and spam, then the class is bad.
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But all of this is here nor there in regards with my actual point which is just because the class is more recent doesn't mean that it is underpowered by default. And in reality elementalists (a class that has been around since day one) needs much more help than paragons do in my honest opinion. Paragons can dish out decent damage and can mitigate amazing damage while ele's can pretty much tank (and can get outtanked by several other classes) and deal mediocre damage (and blind people with blinding surge...)
Buff ele's, dervs then paras...
Faer
I saw some people talking about what "makes sense" and all that psuedo-logic talk that should never, ever be brought up when talking about a video game. But here's something to think about anyway.
Tie a Molotov Cocktail to a spear. Throw the spear at something. Grab another spear with a small keg bomb tied to it, and throw that one too. There you go. Logical AoE for Paragons. Because making sense is incredibly important.
Personally though I don't see this as a problem, because Paragons destroy PvE without these things as it is. In an ideal world, everyone would be running teams consisting of six Paragons, one N/Rt, and an AP Monk.
Tie a Molotov Cocktail to a spear. Throw the spear at something. Grab another spear with a small keg bomb tied to it, and throw that one too. There you go. Logical AoE for Paragons. Because making sense is incredibly important.
Personally though I don't see this as a problem, because Paragons destroy PvE without these things as it is. In an ideal world, everyone would be running teams consisting of six Paragons, one N/Rt, and an AP Monk.
Lanier
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Originally Posted by Theocrat
Tie a Molotov Cocktail to a spear. Throw the spear at something. Grab another spear with a small keg bomb tied to it, and throw that one too. There you go. Logical AoE for Paragons. Because making sense is incredibly important.
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Del
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Originally Posted by Lanier
That wouldn't be very aerodynamic. The keg bomb or cocktail would weigh the spear down.
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shoyon456
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Originally Posted by Ugh
My biggest issue with paragons is that they're damn near impossible to balance; they're overpowered and underpowered at the same time...
Paragons weren't meant to have AoE damage. Classes have niches in this game, so every class having nuking power would be quite redundant (yes, I know the niche system is sort of screwed up with things like ritualists, but there's no need to make it worse). The Paragon's niche is obviously party support, so that should be buffed instead of damage. |
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Originally Posted by Ugh
The tactics update has put dervs on par with warrior and sin scythe builds
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And personally, in most cases when I see a profession using an elite from their secondary I tend to think there's something wrong with either that class or that particular elite skill.
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Originally Posted by Ugh
(rangers have always been worst of the four in scythe use).
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Originally Posted by Ugh
Warriors have high armor, can easily spam, have SY, and have armor penetration;
sins have high armor, can easily spam, have DW, and have shittons of crits; |
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Originally Posted by Ugh
and dervs have permablocking, can spam, have SY, have lots o' crits, and have runes.
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The fact remains that Mysticism offers no melee or dmg advantage whereas Critical Strikes and Strength make both the Sin and War, respectively, better with all melee weapons. Anet tried to make the Derv a caster-melee, and in effect made it sub par at both.
Here are some suggestions mentioned by others as well as myself numerous times:
-AoHM needs to be tied to Mysticism.
-Mysticism needs to be reworked or buffed like Spawning recently was.
(I believe Anet said they were working on this/Dervs in general in the dev update)
-Scythe damage needs to be normalized so that it's not a random gamble on what you're going to get when you swing unless you're setup to crit. This is one fact that has kept them out of High-end/organized PvP for the most part.
-Scythe-striking multiple foes needs to be tied to Mysticism or just completely removed and injected into individual attack skills.
(They were talking about doing something to scythes specifically on the dev update)
belshazaarswrath
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Originally Posted by shoyon456
Keep the personal attacks out of it please. Yes, I did report your post for this fact. And how arrogant of you to pull one or two sentences out of my whole post to try to find some flaw in it without accepting the validity of other parts. This is how flame wars start kids.
If you want to play it that way, then I suppose it would be more accurate to say an Assassin could use the build better than Wars and Dervs. But the point remains the the supposed "main selling point" and main e management of Dervs, Mysticism, is completely unused making Dervs redundant with that build. |
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| OSHIT You reported my post? oh whatever will i do banned from guru again for trolling? I am deeply sorry for insulting you for making such a retarded statement in your flawed argument. |
Riot Narita
You'd think it would be easy to revamp Paragons for PvE, and A-Net wouldn't need to spend that much time on it...
There was a time they were awesome. Their awesomeness was duly exploited in PvP, so they were bludgeoned beyond recognition with the nerfbat.
Simply undo some of the nerfs (PvE-only), and they could be awesome again?
There was a time they were awesome. Their awesomeness was duly exploited in PvP, so they were bludgeoned beyond recognition with the nerfbat.
Simply undo some of the nerfs (PvE-only), and they could be awesome again?
AlsPals
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Originally Posted by Riot Narita
You'd think it would be easy to revamp Paragons for PvE, and A-Net wouldn't need to spend that much time on it...
There was a time they were awesome. Their awesomeness was duly exploited in PvP, so they were bludgeoned beyond recognition with the nerfbat. Simply undo some of the nerfs (PvE-only), and they could be awesome again? |
Edit:Actually, you may disregard most of the post. I didn't realize the reasoning behind your post. Anet put Cons and PVE skills in the game so more OP paragon builds might not make a difference.
jimbo32
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Originally Posted by Lanier
Bad examples FTL. Elementalists throwing a ball of fire makes perfect since. In fact, when I think of the stereotypical fantasy elementalist, a fireball is the first thing that comes to mind. Same with a monk smiting down an opponent. It makes perfect sense for a monk who is smiting an opponent to do so by calling down a god's wrath from heaven. Hell, even the barrage example is a bad one. There are other cases in movies and games where archers have been able to shoot multiple arrows at a time (legolas for example).
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But let me get this straight - because you saw Legolas shoot multiple arrows in a fantasy movie, you are of the opinion that it all of a sudden makes perfect sense? LotR is no more real than GW - fantasy movies (like games) define their own reality. The people who decide what "makes sense" are the game designers and screenwriters. If you think that firing multiple arrows and actually hitting stuff with them makes sense, you've been watching too much TV.
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Originally Posted by Ugh
Paragons weren't meant to have AoE damage. Classes have niches in this game, so every class having nuking power would be quite redundant (yes, I know the niche system is sort of screwed up with things like ritualists, but there's no need to make it worse). The Paragon's niche is obviously party support, so that should be buffed instead of damage.
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The best one to use as a comparison is the Assassin. They have (imo) the highest single-target spike ability out of all the physical classes. I would go so far as to say that it's the main role of the Sin in the grand scheme of GW. Yet they also have some AoE.
I find the whole thing kinda odd really - in my opinion, the two most flexible professions in GW are the Canthan ones. And the two most narrow are the Elonians. It's like the design team overcompensated for giving Rits and Sins such a broad range of skills by shafting the NF classes.
Anyway, I'm not saying that Paras absolutely need AoE skills - I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate. But there's no doubt in my mind that something should be done with the class. Personally, I thought the Para buff was more urgent than Mesmer. And yes, I've played both (my Legendary Survivor is a Mes).
wilebill
All for fixing Paragon as soon as ANet can get to it. /sign
AoE, well Holy Spear can give you some if you have a summoned creature to hit. What I would really like is to see the original skill balance return for PvE only.
Cuilan on GW2: The overpowered skills are purely for testing purposes. We have seen this before with other game previews. By the time GW2 comes out the "one hit kills" are mostly going to be of players, not of monsters. Trust ANet on this one.
AoE, well Holy Spear can give you some if you have a summoned creature to hit. What I would really like is to see the original skill balance return for PvE only.
Cuilan on GW2: The overpowered skills are purely for testing purposes. We have seen this before with other game previews. By the time GW2 comes out the "one hit kills" are mostly going to be of players, not of monsters. Trust ANet on this one.
Raccoon
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Originally Posted by MisterB
You honestly feel that Leadership is inadequate energy management? Wow.
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Skyy High
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
I don't think Guild Wars 2's release will matter. There will be people who will want to play a good game than a game where apparently everything dies from the slightest hit.
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Are you serious man?
On-topic: I still feel that paras are fine. They do sword-level DPS, while simultaneously throwing defensive buffs up like mad, and can bring a couple of support skills to buff defense or offense of their team even further. The issue is that they really shine in a physical party, which most players don't run (hullo 3 necro builds and spiritway). Of course, I also thought mesmers were "fine", not excellent but fine, and they got buffed to the point where running around with my mesmer feels very, very powerful (but still in a mesmer-y kind of way). I'd be fine with motivation getting buffed to the point where it can almost do as good a job as an imbagon right now.
Also, you guys better brace for imbagon getting nerfed, because I totally see that happening. They can't make paras use all the cool new buffed skills if they leave them the most ridiculously OP-ed build they have, and there's absolutely no way they can (or, at least, should) buff motivation to do a better job at party defense as imbagons do now.
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Angel Killuminati
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Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
unlike other damage-dealing professions, paragons have no way to deal AoE damage which leaves them inferior to all other damage dealers. Paragons and rangers are also unable to benefit from some common physical-damage buffs such as Strength of Honor which only widens the gap. unlike other support professions, paragons lack the energy to be useful without constantly attacking (and being subject to dodge, miss, block, blind, etc) in order to gain adrenaline, and many of the skills which he would use to support the team have been nerfed into uselessness because of pvp concerns.
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But they aren't a main physical dealing class, opting more for support. They are there to inspire teammates with shouts and chants.
I do agree though about the energy issue, regardless of equipping your paragon with all manner of energy helping insignias, runes and zealous upgrades, their energy regen doesn't help them support that well, when you consider that most of their better helping skills require a great deal of energy, plus the fact they might need to be activated quite often to actually seem of help.
With the Imbagon it's focused around adrenaline gain, which when using a spear is significantly helped due to the increased attack speed. The adrenaline gain for a paragon in PvE seems more viable, which sadly only limits them to a few builds, or pure attack based using adrenaline based attack skills much like a warrior for example.
As it happens, most energy based skills are left behind.