PvE Balance: What else do you want to see?

Snow Bunny

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

Ok, so only one person has said anything of intelligence in this thread. The rest of you are so hopelessly misguided, and your posts reflecting your delusions are very frustrating to read.

Why do you all want buffs to random shit? Do you people not realize that every single class in PvE is viable? Every class (even monks which is just anathema) has high damage if they wish it, and no class has a glaring weakness, aside from the fcking nature rituals, which no one cares about.

Why do all want buffs to paragons? Do you not realize they're the most imbalanced profession in the game currently? Oh, being imba is boring? Well yeah, who would have thought that a ranged class based on spamming shouts would be boring? I CERTAINLY DID. Monks don't need energy buffs - I play a monk, I would know, I have enough energy as it is, especially when I'm in teams with an SY Warrior, an Imbagon, and a SoS rit.

"I'd like to see a buff to healing and damage reduction..."

WHAT THE RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO DO YOU THINK PARAGONS AND MONKS DO?

As for "well, all rangers are good for right now is barraging and interrupting"....well yes, that's all they've ever been good for. That's what the class was designed for.

jazilla

jazilla

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Guernsey Milking Coalition[MiLk]

E/Me

I would like to see casting times of Nature Rituals lowered for Rangers in PvE. I would also like to see those Nature Rituals only benefit allies. This wouldn't just help a human team, but would make going up against Nature Rituals cast by NPC's tougher to deal with. I think it would encourage their use, which they haven't really ever seen a good use in meta except for gimmicky builds in certain areas.

belshazaarswrath

belshazaarswrath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

AMP

Quote:
Originally Posted by J I L T View Post
I'd like to see a buff to healing and damage reduction across all the classes. Every major buff has been about offense lately even the next monk buff is targeted towards smiting prayers which just doesn't make any sense. Why make monks better at role they're supposed to suck at when paragons, spirit spammers and mms are putting protection monks to shame?
Lol wut

Monks and Ritualists heal for more than plenty. They also both protect amazingly. They really don't need much more changin...

Garreth MacLeod

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

All of you that are asking for these various buffs do realize that the monsters get the same buffs we players do, right?

Ugh

Ugh

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2009

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Bunny View Post
Why do you all want buffs to random shit? Do you people not realize that every single class in PvE is viable?
We want buffs to random shit for 'balance.' Yes, it's powercreep, but having 6 classes dominate over (or have shittons more optimal choices than) 4 other classes is retarded. Powercreep is acceptable if it's not overdone and just used to help weak classes catch up to the others.

Nerfing the other six classes would also be good, as long as every class is on par.

And of course everything is viable in PvE (for the super-easy areas, anyway). Few things are optimal, however, and that's what people want. Having a class or four that are optimal at 0-1 things is boring for those who prefer one of those classes. Their only options are to play with a gimped build, roll a new character, or keep playing the same build over and over.

Also, playing a class like ranger or derv makes it a bitch to find PUGs in high-endish areas.

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no class has a glaring weakness, aside from the fcking nature rituals, which no one cares about.
People would care about them if they weren't so terrible.

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Oh, being imba is boring? Well yeah, who would have thought that a ranged class based on spamming shouts would be boring? I CERTAINLY DID.
A profession shouldn't be disregarded just because some people find it's mechanics boring. Others will like it and they shouldn't be limited to one optimal build.

Quote:
As for "well, all rangers are good for right now is barraging and interrupting"....well yes, that's all they've ever been good for. That's what the class was designed for.
Nitpicking: Rangers certainly weren't designed for barraging; they only had one skill related to barraging at Prophecies release (that skill being Barrage). If a class was designed to do a paticular thing, they would surely have more than one skill to support them in doing that thing.

Anyway, if rangers were designed to barrage and interrupt, what the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO are Beast Mastery and Wilderness Survival for? IMO, BM should be rangers' source of DPS and WS should be their source of party support (through buffed nature rituals).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garreth MacLeod View Post
All of you that are asking for these various buffs do realize that the monsters get the same buffs we players do, right?
PvE needs to be more challenging, tbh.

Snow Bunny

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugh View Post
We want buffs to random shit for 'balance.' Yes, it's powercreep, but having 6 classes dominate over (or have shittons more optimal choices than) 4 other classes is retarded. Powercreep is acceptable if it's not overdone and just used to help weak classes catch up to the others.

Nerfing the other six classes would also be good, as long as every class is on par.

And of course everything is viable in PvE (for the super-easy areas, anyway). Few things are optimal, however, and that's what people want. Having a class or four that are optimal at 0-1 things is boring for those who prefer one of those classes. Their only options are to play with a gimped build, roll a new character, or keep playing the same build over and over.

Also, playing a class like ranger or derv makes it a bitch to find PUGs in high-endish areas.


People would care about them if they weren't so terrible.


A profession shouldn't be disregarded just because some people find it's mechanics boring. Others will like it and they shouldn't be limited to one optimal build.


Nitpicking: Rangers certainly weren't designed for barraging; they only had one skill related to barraging at Prophecies release (that skill being Barrage). If a class was designed to do a paticular thing, they would surely have more than one skill to support them in doing that thing.

Anyway, if rangers were designed to barrage and interrupt, what the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO are Beast Mastery and Wilderness Survival for? IMO, BM should be rangers' source of DPS and WS should be their source of party support (through buffed nature rituals).


PvE needs to be more challenging, tbh.
Yes, it needs to be more challenging, which means DONT BUFF USELESS SHIT.

What 6 classes dominate? Hmmm? Rits, Paras, Rangers, Monks, Eles, Warriors, Assassins, Mesmers, and Necros all see substantial play. Oh, I'm sorry the Dervish doesn't, but 9/10 classes is pretty good.

Few things are optimal? Why yes, that would satisfy the definition of the word. Every class has its trick, and you know what, that's better than 9 classes using ursan and one class healing.

Oh, and if you think they buff NATURE RITUALS rangers are going to see more play you're out of your goddamn mind. Rangers are for interrupting, ok?

You don't balance shit by buffing it.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphy View Post
Stop calling it balance. What you guys are aiming at is powercreeping the shit out of skills.
The problem is that PvE is imbalanced by design - you have a bunch of clueless AI.

Give AI the same tools human players - human wins.

Give AI better tools than humans - humans will exploit and win. Or not exploit and lose. If humans can't exploit they will lose always (if the difference of tools is enough to make for the understanding difference).


And then you can give human players the tools to defeat the AI that can beat humans - hence gimmick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post
Balance does not exist in really exist in PvE - certainly not in the way most appear to look at it.
PvE is built so that the players win. It is designed with the player's victory in mind.

"Balance" is when:
1. The majority of the community can complete anything without resorting to gimmicks or exploitation.
2. The better players complete content faster and more reliably than weaker players, who are slower, less effective and face a much greater risk of failure.
3. There is no dominance or complete lack of presence of particular professions in the meta game.

Power creep has a tendency to be destructive with regards to the above. The third condition and the second half of the second condition are where problems arise when you bring in power creep.
Just to highlight something some players like to ignore - power creep also happens to AI. (and I'm not talking specifically to anyone and I'm just using your post Xeno)

Did some skills become more powerful during GW history - certainly (although some became weaker, like watch yourselves, which became replaced by a PvE-only skill even more broken).

But what about mobs? Did mobs became more powerful?

Indeed - for a long time most were single profession!

Compare the FoW mobs to DoA mobs, long before HM.

Compare these new WiK mobs to regular mobs around the game - WiK mobs can be challenging, or could if it wasn't for all the tools introduced to level the power creep of mobs (PvE-only skills and consumables).

Go do those WiK mobs without any consumables and PvE-only skills.

Now drop the obvious imbalanced regular skills (the one that jumps to my mind is ER).

And don't go with guild/alliance groups - just random strangers, h/h or 2p+6h.

Lanier

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

I agree that there need to be more nerfs when it comes to balancing professions in pve. Power creep should be avoided when possible.

Ugh

Ugh

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2009

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Bunny View Post
Yes, it needs to be more challenging, which means DONT BUFF USELESS SHIT.
Buffs also affect foes, so it would make PvE more challenging while evening out the amount of play seen by all classes.

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What 6 classes dominate? Hmmm? Rits, Paras, Rangers, Monks, Eles, Warriors, Assassins, Mesmers, and Necros all see substantial play. Oh, I'm sorry the Dervish doesn't, but 9/10 classes is pretty good.
Eles see substantial play as ERs. Eles weren't meant to heal; their most prominent role was supposed to be damage-dealing. However, all their nukes are underpowered and pretty useless. Wards and (supposedly) blindspamming do see some use, though.

Paragons see substantial play as Imbagons. A class designed to spam one skill and one skill only gets quite boring after a while. IMO, Imbas should be nerfed and other paragon options should be presented.

Rangers see some play as Splinter Barragers and EoEs, but only when you can't find a rit. Also, those builds are nearly useless in non-tank-based play. Rangers have nothing to offer in general PvE.

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Few things are optimal? Why yes, that would satisfy the definition of the word.
Of course few things are optimal, but those things are not evenly (or correctly, in the case of eles) dispersed throughout the classes.

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Oh, and if you think they buff NATURE RITUALS rangers are going to see more play you're out of your goddamn mind. Rangers are for interrupting, ok?
Rituals could help rangers see more play if they're buffed well. If they were designed to have synergy with things that could help humans (buffing heals, extending shout duration, increasing damage, etc) and maybe given shorter casting times so they're not completely impractical, they would be quite useful.

And, if rangers really are meant for interrupting in PvE, they're even more underpowered than I thought. Interrupting in PvE is, in almost all situations, inferior to just getting shittons of damage and killing the thing you would normally need to interrupt. Interrupting is only 'great' in PvE when it is passive, mindless, and on a large scale (Panic and GDW, for example). Dazing is also a great way to interrupt, but rangers' source of daze is expensive, can miss easily, and, most importantly, has a very long recharge, so it's pretty useless outside a few select missions.

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You don't balance shit by buffing it.
As said before, balance is relative. If everything is overpowered, nothing is. But, if only some things are overpowered, those things need to be nerfed or the other things need to be buffed. In this case, it would be easier (and, IMO, more interesting) to buff.

Shriketalon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Bunny View Post
Yes, it needs to be more challenging, which means DONT BUFF USELESS SHIT.
Actually, it does.

See, if you buff all the useless stuff, all the monsters running around with worthless builds are suddenly using skills that actually present a threat. That's why Ritualist monsters suddenly became dangerous when spirits where increased in ability, that's why Mesmer monsters are now dangerous opponents. Their capabilities increased dramatically when their scrub skills suddenly gained potency.

If you buff five skills, the players get better, because they can use those five skills. If you buff forty skills, players get a little better, but monsters get a LOT better, because those buffs will boost a wide variety of monsters, while the eight-skill-bar limit keeps the players from inflating to such a degree.

Now, a few precise nerfs certainly help, but a pure nerf balance policy isn't going to help the situation. That's because there are a bunch of monsters with completely useless builds, and they'll never be a proper threat without buffing.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Well, ideally we'd see the monsters entirely reworked in terms of how difficulty is achieved. No more difficulty through bigger hp/AL/attribute ranks/mob size. Instead, difficulty through better AI and builds for the monsters. (Simultaneously, a lot of overpowered player skills that exist to counter the monster stat-pumping, such as SY!, could be removed.) But, that is not going to happen in a million years.

So... let's look at some incremental changes that would improve on the current state of affairs:

1. Ranger overhaul. They're the weakest class in PvE right now. Traps, rituals, and pets are all worthless; bows are exceptionally subpar for DPS; interruption is of limited value.

2. Dervish overhaul. Right now they're pretty much generic attack spammers, and inferior to Sins and Warriors at that job.

3. Scythe nerf. They're inherently overpowered, which leads to secondary abuse.

4. Elementalist armor penetration. Changing Intensity (or Elemental Lord) to grant maintainable percentage (not integer) armor penetration would go a long way towards restoring the Ele's role as a damage dealer.

5. Better e-management for Monks. Power creep in HM has made the ability to spam big prot more and more of a prerequisite for being an effective healer. You can do this subtly, or with a sledgehammer. My suggestion is this: "Holy Haste: 5e, 1/4cast, 15recharge, All your monk skills are recharged and you gain 0...4 energy for each skill recharged in this way."

6. Paragon diversification. Imbagon is great, but nothing else is really worth playing. Let's fix these guys.

7. Rollback on PvP-oriented nerfs. There's a lot of nerfs sitting around from the pre-Split era that never served a rational purpose in PvE. For starters, my necro would like to see Soul Reaping reverted to its original form (controversial, I know), VSac reverted, minion cap reverted, and a dozen other things.

8. Cons nerf.

9. Shadow Form nerfed for real.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shriketalon View Post
Meanwhile, Monks have the worst energy management of any caster in the game. Ritualists can siphon it from spirits, grant themselves double energy regeneration or restore it with a flick of the wrist. Mesmers can steal it, drain it, juggle it, manipulate it like a puppet. Elementalists can regain it, gain tax breaks on it or restore it. Necromancers have never had an empty energy pool in PvE in GW history, and wonder what everyone keeps fussing about. But Monks have absolutely nothing.

In part, this is as designed. Monks gain a lot of beneficial effects by giving up energy, bonding in particular, as well as some special enchantments that increase costs for higher yields. The problem is that monks who are NOT bonding and not using these special skills have squat when it comes to keeping their energy up. Whereas their counterpart healer class can slurp up energy from spirits, a healing or standard protection monk relies completely on a secondary profession merely to keep casting if the battle lasts any reasonable length of time.

Ergo, providing monks with ways to meet their energy needs (ones that do NOT work while bonding) would do wonders for making the class no longer bound in holy matrimony to other class's e-management skills.
Monks lack of energy is a design and a base foundation to the GW battle system.

If your monks can't be stressed for energy your team can't die, if your team can't die it won't lose (if it can't lose chances are that they are going to win).

The work around is to deal a huge enough amount of damage to a target so the target goes from current health to 0 and dies, before the monk can react and heal.

To prevent that, teams use single target protection or party wide protection (can be monk protection skills or whatever, like wards, shouts, etc) or hamper the ability of the enemy to do damage (hexes, conditions, disruption, etc).

Since the enemy will also hamper your ability to do damage you need to counter that and find ways to reduce the enemy monks energy pool.

Basically this was PvP at the most purest state and all revolves around the amount of energy monks have.

Now look at PvE.

What is the monk build that has the most energy (infinite actually) and can protect the entire party from spike?

Yes, it is the ER E/Mo.

Actually, from up there we can see all (or most of, AI problems is something missing alongside a few other things) that went wrong with PvE and why some roles simply don't exist or are unsuccessful.

If only the solutions were so easier to figure/implement/be accepted...

Xiaquin

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Bunny View Post
DONT BUFF USELESS SHIT.

Oh, and if you think they buff NATURE RITUALS rangers are going to see more play you're out of your goddamn mind. Rangers are for interrupting, ok?

You don't balance shit by buffing it.
Actually, you can. As GW grows, skills become obsolete, ineffective and in need of updates. That creates rifts between professions and monsters, and inevitably power inbalances. It doesn't make sense to nerf everything down to the lowest common denominator, especially in PvE, given the difficulties of HM. Skills should evolve as the game does.

For example, ritualist spirits got speed buffed. Why did rangers get stuck? And for the record, yes, rangers can interrupt. Do you know what would help? A nature ritual that doesn't take 5 seconds to cast, so my arrows can go fast enough to make that interrupt (and before someone calls RtW/recurve bow, that would miss the point entirely).

Lanier

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaquin View Post
Actually, you can. As GW grows, skills become obsolete, ineffective and in need of updates. That creates rifts between professions and monsters, and inevitably power inbalances. It doesn't make sense to nerf everything down to the lowest common denominator, especially in PvE, given the difficulties of HM. Skills should evolve as the game does.

For example, ritualist spirits got speed buffed. Why did rangers get stuck? And for the record, yes, rangers can interrupt. Do you know what would help? A nature ritual that doesn't take 5 seconds to cast, so my arrows can go fast enough to make that interrupt (and before someone calls RtW/recurve bow, that would miss the point entirely).
I agree that rifts are created between professions and monsters as new updates are created I still think nerfs are healthy for the game and for decreasing power creep. The fact is that HM really isn't that hard no matter what build you run if you play smartly (don't overaggro, flag against AoE, choose targets wisely, dont stick flare on your primary healer, etc. ). Therefore, while I agree that skills need to evolve as the game evolves, I don't think that automatically buffing them to the level of the higher skills is the smart way to balance skills. Am I advocating that skills should be nerfed to the common denominator? No. I do, however, realize that there are currently far fewer overpowered skills than there are underpowered ones. While certain skills like the nature rituals or the para's motivation line could use slight buffs, what is more important is that the overpowered or easily abuseable skills (SoS, ER, Discord, pretty much every pve only skill) get nerfs.

MithranArkanere

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChosen View Post
Let's just say I had more success with an earth warding build with a level 0 lava font to cast "terror" on enemies in comparison to trying to make a decent damage build.
Wards are useless when you play in a way that will make the monsters stay away fighting a warrior and some minions while spirits and the rest of the party attack them.
I found air and its conditions way better. Cracked armor here, blindness there, a bit of dazing here, a little bit of weakness, some spreading, and they are fully nullified while they die.

Fahhhh

Fahhhh

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

UD

A/

A lot of the problems with profession diversity are actually a cause of the amount of professions there are. We have multiple professions to fill a single role in a team. It's hard to balance three professions (speaking of sin, war, and derv here) to be equally appealing when they all basically fill the same role. One will inevitably be more appealing than the rest...

Same goes with healing and support classes, there's just too much overlap leading to one or two dominant profession/s

Xenomortis

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
Just to highlight something some players like to ignore - power creep also happens to AI. (and I'm not talking specifically to anyone and I'm just using your post Xeno)
Even though the power creep applies to the AI, it's still destructive when it starts to climb too high.
Ultimately you're left with a situation where the enemy is capable of wiping teams near instantly (DoA, Slaver's mobs, some UW enemies) and the players are capable of quickly destroying them too (albeit not at the level the enemy can).
This essentially reduces to "who can wipe the other team the fastest" and then the better your ability to kick in protection and pull mobs apart pushes things into your favour.
The more insane the damage coming your way, the more powerful your powercreeped prot needs to be and we end up with the mindless shit like Save Yourselves and an entire team being carried by the ability of two half-decent players that can maintain Protective Bond on everyone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Bunny View Post
What 6 classes dominate? Hmmm? Rits, Paras, Rangers, Monks, Eles, Warriors, Assassins, Mesmers, and Necros all see substantial play. Oh, I'm sorry the Dervish doesn't, but 9/10 classes is pretty good.
No.
Just because the Derv is weaker than the Warrior or Assassin doesn't mean he's bad. He's still a great character for killing things and I don't see any discrimination against Dervs in any PUGs or physical heavy teams that my friends create.

The problem with the Dervish is that it exists.
The 6 core professions introduced in Prophecies had everything covered and the game mechanics worked well with them. Factions tried to muscle in another two - the Rit had its spirits and the Assassin had shadowsteps. It was realised both were destructive to the established PvP and hence both pushed out - things were exasperated when it was observed that the Assassin couldn't do anything else the Warrior didn't already do (with 2 frontline physicals what did one expect?).
Nightfall tried squeezing in another two professions - yet another frontline physical that's supposed to be enchantment based (which results in a very fragile frontliner) and a midline physical that specialises in party-wide support (again, what seems to be a destructive mechanic in PvP).

Now we have three frontliners all trying to perform the same role (kill things) and two other professions that are left wondering what to do. The Rit only saw substantial PvE play after an insane buff (although their skill-set had some nice enough tools in it for PvP play) and Paragons get along by spamming two PvE skills but aren't all that valuable.

Buffing the Dervish won't change things. Either you push the Derv above the Sin or Warrior, in which case the one that falls behind begins to complain or you don't and the Dervishes will still complain.
The best you can hope for is that the difference is small enough that people don't really care and that all three can kill stuff in due course - which is what we have. The only people really complaining are those with Dervishes as their main.

shoyon456

shoyon456

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2006

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahhhh View Post
It's hard to balance three professions (speaking of sin, war, and derv here) to be equally appealing when they all basically fill the same role. One will inevitably be more appealing than the rest...
While this is true, the goal shouldn't be that they all fill the same role. Instead each would have a role for a niche situation. An extremely oversimplified version of this would be taking an Avatar of Dwayna Dervish into FoW since they wouldn't cause the monks to worry about ss as much as they may have to with Wars/Sins.

Whereas in DoA a group may want Wars since they're not as dependent on enchantments.

The point of the Derv balance isn't to get them into every high end PvE/PvP group, only to give them the options and tools so that they can get into some.

Unless something has dramatically shifted, if you hit "b" you won't see a single high-ranked guild running a Derv in their team. Why? Because they were nerfed into oblivion when NF was released and have stayed that way pretty much since. In PvP the only thing Derv's have going is wounding strike, which can easily be replicated by other classes in other ways and has no unique or skillful aspect to it. It's simply an on-demand DW/bleeding.

In PvE I long ago gave up on grouping with my Derv. If it weren't for my crazy awesome guild, my Derv would never be in DoA/UW/FoW/Urgoz/Deep. The fact is that a War/Sin could pick up a scythe and start singing "Whatever you can do I can do better!" Even putting the whole WE scythe and crit scythe issues aside, both sins and warriors have utility skills that only they can utilize optimally, whereas earth prayers are taken advantage by everyone and wind prayers is completely haphazard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post
The best you can hope for is that the difference is small enough that people don't really care and that all three can kill stuff in due course - which is what we have. The only people really complaining are those with Dervishes as their main.
While PvE is mostly about just killing stuff, there are aspects like lower armor, vulnerability of Dervish enchants, etc... that put them at a much bigger disadvantage. Not that either of these can or should be changed, but those facts have to be taken into consideration and other areas have to be balanced accordingly so that there's "give and take." The difference is not small enough so that people don't care. Don't believe me? Go to UW/FoW/DoA/etc... and try to get into an experienced guild group who runs it all the time on a Derv. Chances are that if they let you in they either are too tired to care or don't mind carrying you as a burden.

No, us with Dervishes as our mains aren't the only ones complaining, but you can be damn sure we're the loudest. It's very simple: We see the problems firsthand. I know that scythe damage is outrageous and better utilized by Wars/Sins. I know that Mysticism is a very weak primary aside from the Avatar skills. And on and on and on...

I'd say the same to anyone. If it's your main class, I'll defer to your knowledge because you probably have more playtime invested in that class than myself.

Xiaquin

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanier View Post
The fact is that HM really isn't that hard no matter what build you run if you play smartly (don't overaggro, flag against AoE, choose targets wisely, dont stick flare on your primary healer, etc. ).
You cannot be serious. Dodging overaggro, spacing, priority targets and skill bar 101 alone doesn't save you in HM. I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. Enemies get huge buffs in movement, IAS, skill activation, not to mention levels. That's a bit more than "be more careful", but, that's another debate for another time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanier View Post
I do, however, realize that there are currently far fewer overpowered skills than there are underpowered ones.
Well, all it takes is a couple of overpowered skills to have a huge impact. SoS? SY? Really, when faced with these highly abused skills, why the heck do people lose their minds when someone suggests fixing nature rituals? It's like they have what they want, now screw everyone else who wants to see some reworks, because it could upset their world.

fireflyry

fireflyry

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

New Zealand

A/D

Realistically having true balance in such a format/genre is unattainable especially when the definition of "true balance" is subjectively defined by individual opinion....on a minority forum.

World peace seems more realistic.

makosi

makosi

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.

Requirement Begins With R [notQ]

Me/

My thoughts on Dervishes:

After doing every HM Canthan mission recently, I assessed the problems and benefits I faced in comparison to other melees: warrior, scythe ranger and assassin (scythe and daggers).

Dependence on enchantments, long casting times and low armour level were the three most frustrating issues. The Dervish enchantments I've been using - Eternal Aura, Aura of Holy Might, Heart of Fury - have 1s, 3/4s and 3/4s casting times respectively as well as after casts. This makes for sluggish gameplay when you compare it to the popular scythe-sin enchantments (Critical Agility and Way of the Master) and the smoothness of transitioning between Warrior stances. Also, whichever dev selects skills for monsters absouletly loves Chilblains which means that the trudgingly slow process of enchanting-up becomes almost futile.

I like Conviction, but not the attribute. Earth Prayers doesn't allure me and I dislike splitting my attributes four ways; in this case between Scythe Mastery, Mysticism and Wind Prayers (for Attacker's Insight.) I'd prefer to shift the burden of protection on to my heroes' bars instead - after all I need room for attack skills.

Suggestions (from a PvE mind set):

Avatar forms: reduce activation time to 1 second and possibly reduce the energy cost of Melandru to 15.

IAS: Pious Fury is a nuisance with the enchantment removing clause and Heart of Fury has ~33% down time, moderate energy cost and high vulnerability to removal. Tweak IAS skills to be a bit longer or, perhaps, nuke an unused dervish skill and change it to an IAS.

Armour: How about adding 3 armour for every 3 ranks of Mysticism in PvE? So if you're running 12 Mysticism you'll have +12 armour.

I'll update this with more when my brain is functioning better.

tealspikes

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garreth MacLeod View Post
All of you that are asking for these various buffs do realize that the monsters get the same buffs we players do, right?
If we can assume that human players generally will make better use of their skills than a cpu, then any buff will generally benefit the human player much more than the cpu. Also, players can tailor their skillbar to exploit certain enemies, monsters are static. If the general power of skills increase, so does the potency of counters and exploits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugh View Post
As said before, balance is relative. If everything is overpowered, nothing is.
Thats only if everything is overpowered. Not just skills, but core game mechanics like armor levels, base damage, movement speed, etc.
Don't forget, skills are not just balanced around other skills, but around the foundations of the game. Even if buffing all these mechanics along with the underpowered skills was possible, it would not be feasable.

belshazaarswrath

belshazaarswrath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

AMP

Quote:
Originally Posted by fireflyry View Post
Realistically having true balance in such a format/genre is unattainable especially when the definition of "true balance" is subjectively defined by individual opinion....on a minority forum.

World peace seems more realistic.
On the same token though wouldn't the game be rather dull if it was balanced and skills were just never modified? I personally find it interesting and fun to ride the wave of constant skill nerfs and buffs...which obviously aren't as constant as they used to be.

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

Dervish are still a caster profession. Agree with having their own role instead of stepping on others, but I'm sure rangers and mesmers will still want to interrupt them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoyon456 View Post
In PvE I long ago gave up on grouping with my Derv. If it weren't for my crazy awesome guild, my Derv would never be in DoA/UW/FoW/Urgoz/Deep.
Have you tried Physway? It works in all the areas you mentioned except Gloom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
5. Better e-management for Monks.

8. Cons nerf.

9. Shadow Form nerfed for real.
I agree cons and Shadow Form could use a bit more nerfing.

Monks shouldn't need more energy. Ether Renewal or commonly used skills that work with it need nerfing or weakening. Having monking easy will take the game out of Guild Wars.

AlsPals

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

Sellin hot stock tips for pro[fit]

Me/E

Might not be a "balance" but increasing the general frequency of some choice drops in dungeons so anyone who isn't speed clearing it won't ragequit. BTW, the buffing of skills have mad some encounters(ROJs, Spiritual Pain, Esurge) in HM a pain, though in some instances can be fun. Some.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlsPals View Post
Might not be a "balance" but increasing the general frequency of some choice drops in dungeons so anyone who isn't speed clearing it won't ragequit. BTW, the buffing of skills have mad some encounters(ROJs, Spiritual Pain, Esurge) in HM a pain, though in some instances can be fun. Some.
Definitely agree with this, I just didn't bring it up because I figured Anet has enough on their hand already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuilan View Post
Monks shouldn't need more energy. Ether Renewal or commonly used skills that work with it need nerfing or weakening. Having monking easy will take the game out of Guild Wars.
With mobs that deals over 300 damage a hit in HM, there's only a few ways to actually deal with it.

1) Tank N' Spank
-BORING as hell, and does not promote any sort of skillful play, as well as eliminating any non-damage class choices. Not to mention how skills in Tank N' Spank style teams are always the target of nerf requests.

2) Make everyone STAY STILL and spam protection on one person.
-Basically Tank N' Spank with extra work, and can be easily overwhelmed if the mob is large enough and/or contain enchant strips

3) Spam protection and heal on everyone
-Impossible to do with monk's current energy management options.

4) Make everyone "invincible" with SY!
-People would try to get this skill nerfed sooner or later.

Of course the better thing to do is to actually remove the 300+ damage mobs like Bladed Aatxe and most stuff in DoA and actually implement some balanced mobs like those in slavers...

J I L T

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2009

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath View Post
Lol wut

Monks and Ritualists heal for more than plenty. They also both protect amazingly. They really don't need much more changin...
Yeah and dervs deal more than enough scythe damage. Hammers, blood magic, pets, mesmers and plenty of other stuff could all get the job done but they got buffs anyway. Never said monks, paragons or rits couldn't keep people alive just that defense isn't getting nearly as much attention as offense and the gap between paragons, rits and monks is ridiculous. How is that rits and paragons are not only better damage dealers but they also have unremovable party wide and spammable damage reduction? Monks can only use aegis or bonds to provide party wide protection and only one skill can't be removed. Paragons have garbage healing, rits and paragons lack single target protection. I'm not saying there needs to be a lot of huge game breaking changes or whole classes need overhauls just even things out a bit with some modest buffs.

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChosen View Post
With mobs that deals over 300 damage a hit in HM, there's only a few ways to actually deal with it.
There are many ways to keep a party going. Making monks turn hard mode to stupid mode and would cause a lot of harm to paragons, mesmers, ritualists, and others. Have the ritualist spirits tank, dual spirit spam, have an minion master, conditions mesmer, defensive Soul Twisting, or have your melee do damage.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuilan View Post
There are many ways to keep a party going. Making monks turn hard mode to stupid mode and would cause a lot of harm to paragons, mesmers, ritualists, and others. Have the ritualist spirits tank, dual spirit spam, have an minion master, conditions mesmer, defensive Soul Twisting, or have your melee do damage.
Lots of ways that are all gimmicky, skill-less, and/or slow. Its pretty much protect the entire team, make sure the mob doesn't hit the team, or hex/condition every single one without fail. I see no difference between spamming conditions on everywhere, spamming spirits everywhere, or spamming heals/prots its still a gimmick to deal with mobs that cannot be pre-protted or reactively protted with skill.

SoS is already the target for nerf on this forum, and minions doesn't work well in elite areas. And it still doesn't take away from the fact that its completely mindless...spam stuff and monk doesn't have to do anything. Its like saying that monk is overpowered because they don't need to do anything pre-SF nerf.

Which was why I added that it would be way better if the mob was balanced in the first place. All the tactics that PvP monks use are completely useless when mobs can kill in 2 hits and has permanent IMS/IAS.

Either way, please don't exaggerate "improving E-management" with "spamming", it would take a whole lot of buff for monks to come anywhere close to what some of the other class can do.

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

How dare those other professions have various well working roles and builds. Darn them to hell.

If monks had a ton of energy, they would mindlessly spam and you know it.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuilan View Post
How dare those other professions have various well working roles and builds. Darn them to hell.

If monks had a ton of energy, they would mindlessly spam and you know it.
More energy =! A ton of energy....If you played with a decent number of pugs you would know that monks run out of energy like mad, even with the more skilled ones. As for the average "stupid" pugs...oh boy let's not go there.

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChosen View Post
More energy =! A ton of energy....If you played with a decent number of pugs you would know that monks run out of energy like mad, even with the more skilled ones. As for the average "stupid" pugs...oh boy let's not go there.
That's a problem with the player and the group. Making attributes and roles of professions useless is not balance.

Del

Del

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2009

In a van, down by the river.

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO if I know, ask Lynette.

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuilan View Post
How dare those other professions have various well working roles and builds. Darn them to hell.

If monks had a ton of energy, they would mindlessly spam and you know it.
When they dumbed down mesmer you seemed somewhat satisfied. when they took some of the brainlessness out of mindwrack you made a thread just to complain about it, yet you're against other professions being mindless?

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

Mesmers weren't dumbed down and no, I obviously don't think professions should be mindless. Derrr.

Monks obviously have useful skills.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Del View Post
i wouldn't nerf it, so much as revert it.

/sighned anyways
Wait, what? You can't make Flare more useful than DWG?

Lanier

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

While I am all for making the game more defensive and slower paced, I really don't think monks need an energy management buff. As a player monk, with smart tactics like not over aggroing, flagging in AoE, and tailoring your party for the area, and placing your prots smartly, managing energy really isn't difficult at all. Without having to cast spells continually, and with almost all of their good spells casting 5 energy, the other few costing 10 energy, and a couple of useful signets, monks have pretty spectacular passive energy management. In addition, heroes have the ability to abuse inspiration skills like pdrain or waste not, want not for energy. Monks simply don't need the extra energy management.

Quote:
With mobs that deals over 300 damage a hit in HM, there's only a few ways to actually deal with it.
Don't overexaggerate. only bosses typically hit for over 300 damage, and you only ever have to fight more than one at a time. Prot spirit solves this, and when combined with careful tactics like taking care not to overaggro, flagging when necessary, and calling targets smartly, you really shouldn't have a problem in PvE with non-gimmicky or balanced teams.

Del

Del

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2009

In a van, down by the river.

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO if I know, ask Lynette.

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuilan View Post
Mesmers weren't dumbed down and no, I obviously don't think professions should be mindless. Derrr.

Monks are obviously have useful skills.

Wait, what? You can't make Flare more useful than DWG?
I can't think of anything on an esurge bar that requires any amount of skill to play. So whining about mindwrack being slightly toned down but saying monks shouldn't have better e management is still pretty ass backwards. And i don't see the point of that quote, but hey, you obviously don't have an argument.

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Del View Post
So whining about mindwrack being slightly toned down but saying monks shouldn't have better e management is still pretty ass backwards. And i don't see the point of that quote, but hey, you obviously don't have an argument.
The thread was made because it was a step back and perhaps a somewhat unneeded change (regardless of what it was or did) from a long overdue overhaul of a profession. You were the user who threw an unrelated skill into discussion when others were discussing something else. I quoted that because you seem to have a difficult time understanding some skills have more uses than others. Suddenly one skill is too useful. When you said dumbed down, you pointed to a skill that had something to make it more useful but retaining one of the same functions. Healing and prot is already useful.

AlsPals

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

Sellin hot stock tips for pro[fit]

Me/E

@ Lanier
Whew, im so against slower paced it is not even funny. I slogged through SoO, Menagerie, and Excavations, and the return on time spent vs the absurdity of odds isn't balanced right. Without a better reason to do so, the slow and steady approach, unless you enjoy long and fruitless battles, wastes a ton of time. Even though there was an exaggeration about damage, HM creatures typically pack 100HP punches in any skill, and auto attack ive seen upwards of 80. HM stacks the deck, but in general, build wars takes care of that little problem. Its just when mobs are double or more player size, its a little irritating.

@Del
I don't agree that mesmers were dumbed down, per se, but E-Denial has never been a really talent-exclusive archetype to run. Just 2 skills were absurdly stupid(Mind Wrack was elite worthy, and is still very good.). Unfortunately, when Wrack and Overload were toned, the builds got tossed. Community is fickle like that. If you ask me, im confused as to which version of E-Surge is better though:The old slightly lower damage, higher cost, but wider AOE range version or the current super efficiently costed, Slightly higher damage with smaller AOE version.

Del

Del

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2009

In a van, down by the river.

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO if I know, ask Lynette.

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuilan View Post
The thread was made because it was a step back and perhaps a somewhat unneeded change (regardless of what it was or did) from a long overdue overhaul of a profession. You were the user who threw an unrelated skill into discussion when others were discussing something else. I quoted that because you seem to have a difficult time understanding some skills have more uses than others. Suddenly one skill is too useful. When you said dumbed down, you pointed to a skill that had something to make it more useful but retaining one of the same functions. Healing and prot is already useful.
LOLWUT? someone suggested improving monk e management, you said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuilan View Post
How dare those other professions have various well working roles and builds. Darn them to hell.

If monks had a ton of energy, they would mindlessly spam and you know it.
So i brought up your DERP little thread about reverting mindwrack, even though it is still strong, you felt the need to have it reverted so it would still trigger on hexes, because making it slightly less brainless was such a terrible thing. Yet here you seem to think improving monk e management= making it brainless. also, that quote was from the dwg thread, still completely irrelevant. Even if it was relevant, i signed for a revert/ nerf because dwg is extremely simplistic, dull as dirt, and really the buff was unnecessary. And you, so against brainlessness would see the merit in it, but being a hypocrite, you don't, and go so far as to use it as a pointless completely irrelevant argument to something that has nothing to do with anything, proving nothing.
But it's cool, you obviously don't have an actual argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlsPals View Post
@Del
I don't agree that mesmers were dumbed down, per se, but E-Denial has never been a really talent-exclusive archetype to run. Just 2 skills were absurdly stupid(Mind Wrack was elite worthy, and is still very good.). Unfortunately, when Wrack and Overload were toned, the builds got tossed. Community is fickle like that. If you ask me, im confused as to which version of E-Surge is better though:The old slightly lower damage, higher cost, but wider AOE range version or the current super efficiently costed, Slightly higher damage with smaller AOE version.
Play RA for an hour, and try to tell me the fickle community tossed it. And e surge seriously takes no skill whatsoever. mindwrack, mash buttons, just as insanely simplistic as playing fire ele.

AlsPals

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

Sellin hot stock tips for pro[fit]

Me/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Del View Post
Play RA for an hour, and try to tell me the fickle community tossed it. And e surge seriously takes no skill whatsoever. mindwrack, mash buttons, just as insanely simplistic as playing fire ele.
Oh, I thought we were talking about a serious format, at least GvG, lol. You can run just about anything in RA with a single target in mind and rape. The class didn't get dumbed down, dumb people just run dumb things.