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Originally Posted by Del
Play RA for an hour
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PvE Balance: What else do you want to see?
Cuilan
If you don't want things mindless, then you wouldn't post about something unrelated unless you're posting just to cause a stir. There's a difference between how useful or how much impact a skill has and player skill. You're fine with weak skills being in the same game as really powerful ones, so you were quoted for hypocrisy.
This thread is for PvE.
Lanier
the fuss about mind wrack wasn't at all about making it more brainless to play. It was about reversing an unnecessary nerf in PvE.
UnChosen
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Originally Posted by Lanier
Don't overexaggerate. only bosses typically hit for over 300 damage, and you only ever have to fight more than one at a time. Prot spirit solves this, and when combined with careful tactics like taking care not to overaggro, flagging when necessary, and calling targets smartly, you really shouldn't have a problem in PvE with non-gimmicky or balanced teams.
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Of course when balanced groups go in against these, the common tactic is "Everyone stayback, let tank go up first". If you don't tank them, monk have a split second to figure out which one the Bladed Aatxe are after and prot him, assuming the (usually 3) of them all go after the same target. This is also assuming the common "balanced" groups, no spamming "SY!" or a dozen spirits gimmicks.
Ya, I should have specified that I was basing it on ELITE areas because everyone use H/h discordway for everywhere else anyways. And I seriously don't think that anyone can deny that elite areas are anti-"balanced" and are gimmick havens.
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Originally Posted by Del
I can't think of anything on an esurge bar that requires any amount of skill to play. So whining about mindwrack being slightly toned down but saying monks shouldn't have better e management is still pretty ass backwards. And i don't see the point of that quote, but hey, you obviously don't have an argument.
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Del
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
If you don't want things mindless, then you wouldn't post about something unrelated unless you're posting just to cause a stir. There's a difference between how useful or how much impact a skill has and player skill. You're fine with weak skills being in the same game as really powerful ones, so you were quoted for hypocrisy.
This thread is for PvE. |
As far as this being a thread for pve, i was more responding to UnChosen's claim that e surge is pretty much rejected. Even in pve this is untrue since E-surge is still mindless spammy damage that has a better output than eles.
DURP.
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Originally Posted by UnChosen
UW and DoA HM, Bladed Aatxe and other monsters. It even says in guild wiki: "They are known to deal up to around 300 damage with a single hit to all low-armor classes. " And that is in NORMAL mode.
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Originally Posted by UnChosen
He seems to think that requesting for e-management improvement = requesting for infinite energy. Then of course he also think improving elementalist damage = requesting for OHKO super nuke. -.-
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Lanier
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Originally Posted by UnChosen
UW and DoA HM, Bladed Aatxe and other monsters. It even says in guild wiki: "They are known to deal up to around 300 damage with a single hit to all low-armor classes. " And that is in NORMAL mode.
Of course when balanced groups go in against these, the common tactic is "Everyone stayback, let tank go up first". If you don't tank them, monk have a split second to figure out which one the Bladed Aatxe are after and prot him, assuming the (usually 3) of them all go after the same target. This is also assuming the common "balanced" groups, no spamming "SY!" or a dozen spirits gimmicks. Ya, I should have specified that I was basing it on ELITE areas because everyone use H/h discordway for everywhere else anyways. And I seriously don't think that anyone can deny that elite areas are anti-"balanced" and are gimmick havens. |
cellardweller
I'd like to see them address some of the pve skills out there, some examples include
- Brawling headbutt allows for complete knocklock, trivialising any boss encounter
- Pain inverter rewards bad play
- SY/TNTF reward passive defense disproportionately over active defense
- AP makes any recharge put on pve skills meaningless
- Brawling headbutt allows for complete knocklock, trivialising any boss encounter
- Pain inverter rewards bad play
- SY/TNTF reward passive defense disproportionately over active defense
- AP makes any recharge put on pve skills meaningless
NerfHerder
PvE Suggestions
Dervish: Tie AoHM to Mysticism, Better IAS options, buff avatars, and maybe some better energy management from Mysticism
Elementalist: Cause energy and health gain from ER to trigger on Ele skills, give us a good reason to use Intensity, Invoke Lightning should be AoE, in fact give Air Magic more AoE, Earth and Water should have something to make it more fun I dont know what it would be
Paragon: More offensive buffs, Nerf Imba a little, Buff Motivation
Rangers: Improve pet AI, buff a few spirits and traps
Monks: I dont see where some monk specific e-management would hurt.
Ritualist: Leave Ritney alone!
I play all 10 professions. Lately I have been taking them all through WiK HM with H/H. And these are my thoughts: Paragon is most boring cuz I can only use one build. Ele, I have to use an AP caller. Derv is ok but could use some fun tweaking, again im tired of using one build to keep up with the Joneses. Monk, my heros heal better than I do, so I go smiting. I just want to get away from gimmick builds and profession discrimination. Its making the game feel stagnant, even with the much appreciated WiK content.
Or BUFF the hell out of everything! That would make the game really fun and exciting again until GW2 is released! I would love to read the QQ posts.
Dervish: Tie AoHM to Mysticism, Better IAS options, buff avatars, and maybe some better energy management from Mysticism
Elementalist: Cause energy and health gain from ER to trigger on Ele skills, give us a good reason to use Intensity, Invoke Lightning should be AoE, in fact give Air Magic more AoE, Earth and Water should have something to make it more fun I dont know what it would be
Paragon: More offensive buffs, Nerf Imba a little, Buff Motivation
Rangers: Improve pet AI, buff a few spirits and traps
Monks: I dont see where some monk specific e-management would hurt.
Ritualist: Leave Ritney alone!
I play all 10 professions. Lately I have been taking them all through WiK HM with H/H. And these are my thoughts: Paragon is most boring cuz I can only use one build. Ele, I have to use an AP caller. Derv is ok but could use some fun tweaking, again im tired of using one build to keep up with the Joneses. Monk, my heros heal better than I do, so I go smiting. I just want to get away from gimmick builds and profession discrimination. Its making the game feel stagnant, even with the much appreciated WiK content.
Or BUFF the hell out of everything! That would make the game really fun and exciting again until GW2 is released! I would love to read the QQ posts.
Owik Gall
Bring back Steelfang Slash original skill function that didn't have the one second delay for pve! This is all I care about.
Life Bringing
I dont see how you can say HM mobs don't typically hit for over 300. Have you played against a HM ele lately?
Mintha Syl
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Originally Posted by NerfHerder
Dervish: Tie AoHM to Mysticism, Better IAS options, buff avatars, and maybe some better energy management from Mysticism
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Del
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Originally Posted by Mintha Syl
This. Especially the IAS part. It's not much I'm playing a dervish but this is the first thing I noticed. There's no decent ones, maintainable with low energy cost and short rechange. I have no energy issues but that's because of Lyssa's avatar, and having to use an elite to have energy enough in a profession that has a primary atribute specifically for energy...really denotes there's something wrong there.
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Cuilan
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Originally Posted by Del
Somehow i don't think your brilliant argument was even partially thought through.
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WhiteAsIce
I was gonna say everything the OP did.
E) Any Ele not doing the Infuse thing in HM is a gimp. Direct damage is fine in NM, but for HM, things need to change. I saw the thread in the Ele section, and am liking the idea of changing just one skill to make Eles useful in HM once again - Intensity. Read that thread for more info.
R) It's sad when the best build for a Ranger is a melee build. Bows in PvE need a serious buff.
P) Paragons received a buff in the same update that Rits did. Problem is, the Imbagon is still the only build worth running.
Other things I would consider:
Mo) I must be the only one who believes that Monks need a buff to Smiting. However, it would need to be tied more to DF, since there are other professions that are smiting better than the Monk (Necros & Rits, specifically).
D) Moot point since this was already addressed, but I would like to see Heart of Fury recharge in 20 seconds down from 30. That way, an IAS is now maintainable (with an enchanting weapon) with high Mysticism, without having to resort to Warrior stances or (god forbid) Never Rampage Alone.
E) Any Ele not doing the Infuse thing in HM is a gimp. Direct damage is fine in NM, but for HM, things need to change. I saw the thread in the Ele section, and am liking the idea of changing just one skill to make Eles useful in HM once again - Intensity. Read that thread for more info.
R) It's sad when the best build for a Ranger is a melee build. Bows in PvE need a serious buff.
P) Paragons received a buff in the same update that Rits did. Problem is, the Imbagon is still the only build worth running.
Other things I would consider:
Mo) I must be the only one who believes that Monks need a buff to Smiting. However, it would need to be tied more to DF, since there are other professions that are smiting better than the Monk (Necros & Rits, specifically).
D) Moot point since this was already addressed, but I would like to see Heart of Fury recharge in 20 seconds down from 30. That way, an IAS is now maintainable (with an enchanting weapon) with high Mysticism, without having to resort to Warrior stances or (god forbid) Never Rampage Alone.
Rhamia Darigaz
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Originally Posted by aspi
SoH on my ranger, I would love to see that
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aspi
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Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz
Will never happen as ranged attacks are not honorable, and therefore cannot benefit from the strength of honor.
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I will just have to wait if the ranger gets any love. But I like it that they are buffing the Derv, my derv chick has been collecting dust for some time now
Lanier
I guess ill go ahead and give my 2 cents.
Pve only skills:
All norn, vanguard, asura, and dwarven skills need removing.
Sy needs nerfing. I would suggest scaling the armor gain with the strength stat so that at a strength of 12, the armor is +40. Then, increase its duration slightly.
Increase necrosis recharge by one or two seconds.
Put a limit (maybe 3 spirits) on the number of spirits affected by summon spirits.
Warrior:
Revert hundred blades.
Buff some of the really conditional strength and tactics shouts that no one uses.
Ranger:
Buff the nature spirits in pve.
I really think that this is all rangers need.
Paragon:
buff the unplayably conditional shouts.
Buff the paragon healing ability.
Paras are already good enough offensive. The don't need an offensive buff.
Assassin: make it so that critical strikes only affects daggers.
Increase the recharge of all attacks below 4 seconds to at least 4 seconds.
I'll get around to the other professions later.
Pve only skills:
All norn, vanguard, asura, and dwarven skills need removing.
Sy needs nerfing. I would suggest scaling the armor gain with the strength stat so that at a strength of 12, the armor is +40. Then, increase its duration slightly.
Increase necrosis recharge by one or two seconds.
Put a limit (maybe 3 spirits) on the number of spirits affected by summon spirits.
Warrior:
Revert hundred blades.
Buff some of the really conditional strength and tactics shouts that no one uses.
Ranger:
Buff the nature spirits in pve.
I really think that this is all rangers need.
Paragon:
buff the unplayably conditional shouts.
Buff the paragon healing ability.
Paras are already good enough offensive. The don't need an offensive buff.
Assassin: make it so that critical strikes only affects daggers.
Increase the recharge of all attacks below 4 seconds to at least 4 seconds.
I'll get around to the other professions later.
aspi
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Originally Posted by Lanier
I guess ill go ahead and give my 2 cents.
Pve only skills: All norn, vanguard, asura, and dwarven skills need removing. Sy needs nerfing. I would suggest scaling the armor gain with the strength stat so that at a strength of 12, the armor is +40. Then, increase its duration slightly. Increase necrosis recharge by one or two seconds. Put a limit (maybe 3 spirits) on the number of spirits affected by summon spirits. Warrior: Revert hundred blades. Buff some of the really conditional strength and tactics shouts that no one uses. Ranger: Buff the nature spirits in pve. I really think that this is all rangers need. Paragon: buff the unplayably conditional shouts. Buff the paragon healing ability. Paras are already good enough offensive. The don't need an offensive buff. Assassin: make it so that critical strikes only affects daggers. Increase the recharge of all attacks below 4 seconds to at least 4 seconds. I'll get around to the other professions later. |
Ugh
Ideally:
1) Nerf all OP PvE skills/builds and the foes of HM.
2) Wait to see what trends emerge after the mass nerf.
3) Nerf the stuff that is still OP.
4) Buff the classes/skills/attributes/etc that still don't see play or were made too underpowered by the nerf.
Realistically:
Rangers- Give nature rituals better synergy with things humans use. Buff traps a bit. Improve synergy between pets and bows. Make marksmanship more supportive of the role of rangers. Buff BHA.
Eles- Make Intensity give armor penetration. Nerf ER.
Dervs- I assume the devs already have this under control. Also, I don't play derv, so I don't have much input anyways. Just nerf scythes for other classes, plz.
Paras- Nerf SY. More single-target skills and skills with more effectiveness with less allies so paras aren't useless in small groups and OP in large groups.
Sins- Nerf SF, Jagged Strike, and Fox Fangs.
Shortbows require quite a bit of bravery, especially with Point Blank Shot.
And swords and axes aren't honorable. Hiding behind a shield? Pft.
A policy consisting of both nerfs and buffs would probably be optimal for PvE 'balance.' Only buffing would lead to massive powercreep.
1) Nerf all OP PvE skills/builds and the foes of HM.
2) Wait to see what trends emerge after the mass nerf.
3) Nerf the stuff that is still OP.
4) Buff the classes/skills/attributes/etc that still don't see play or were made too underpowered by the nerf.
Realistically:
Rangers- Give nature rituals better synergy with things humans use. Buff traps a bit. Improve synergy between pets and bows. Make marksmanship more supportive of the role of rangers. Buff BHA.
Eles- Make Intensity give armor penetration. Nerf ER.
Dervs- I assume the devs already have this under control. Also, I don't play derv, so I don't have much input anyways. Just nerf scythes for other classes, plz.
Paras- Nerf SY. More single-target skills and skills with more effectiveness with less allies so paras aren't useless in small groups and OP in large groups.
Sins- Nerf SF, Jagged Strike, and Fox Fangs.
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Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz
Will never happen as ranged attacks are not honorable, and therefore cannot benefit from the strength of honor.
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And swords and axes aren't honorable. Hiding behind a shield? Pft.
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Originally Posted by aspi
So you are saying nerf and change the game? No need to cripple the builds that are working to make it seem that the other professions are buffed.
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NerfHerder
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Originally Posted by Lanier
I guess ill go ahead and give my 2 cents.
Pve only skills: All norn, vanguard, asura, and dwarven skills need removing. Sy needs nerfing. I would suggest scaling the armor gain with the strength stat so that at a strength of 12, the armor is +40. Then, increase its duration slightly. Increase necrosis recharge by one or two seconds. Put a limit (maybe 3 spirits) on the number of spirits affected by summon spirits. |
The problem with powercreep is that it eventually effects all games. One way to deal with this would be to nerf whats been creeping. Like you suggested, swing the nerf bat like a blind man fighting for his life. To me that would make the game feel stagnant as nothing would change for the life of the game. Or you can buff underused/under powered skills to keep the game fun, interesting, and add more flavor.
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Originally Posted by Del
Dervs have a bunch of attacks with 1 sec activations, no real need for an IAS, and mysticism is a pretty decent attribute when used properly, problem is, no one does.
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Lanier
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Originally Posted by Ugh
A policy consisting of both nerfs and buffs would probably be optimal for PvE 'balance.' Only buffing would lead to massive powercreep.
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Del
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
That would apply to you, as you're once again posting to just annoy and troll. Inconstancy.
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Cuilan
Balancing is retarded. Stuff doesn't need buffs. Give monks energy. Oh wait...
Feeding your ego at others expense with your derps and other insults you enjoy adding. You brought up a profession that had a lot of issues in an area when others were discussing a profession that's in demand, useful, and strong.
Feeding your ego at others expense with your derps and other insults you enjoy adding. You brought up a profession that had a lot of issues in an area when others were discussing a profession that's in demand, useful, and strong.
fireflyry
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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
On the same token though wouldn't the game be rather dull if it was balanced and skills were just never modified? I personally find it interesting and fun to ride the wave of constant skill nerfs and buffs...which obviously aren't as constant as they used to be.
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I accept and enjoy it as part of the game yet we are really the first generation of MMORPG players and critics.In saying I think this will become an accepted, possibly even marketed, part of the genre in general and players expectations will become more realistic as a result.
Atm there seem's to be a lot of MMO players who define balance after years of playing single-player games, or at least the arguments and philosophy regarding balance seem to be based on the same trend.
As you pretty much say, balance being a cyclic and consistent issue won't change.For many it's an incentive and motivation for discussion and game activity.
Probably part of the business blueprint tbh.
Shayne Hawke
Tone down power levels on the Warrior, Necromancer, Mesmer, Monk, and Ritualist. In other words, balance the game for Normal Mode.
Fix PvE elite areas so that they're not such a LOL-MY-BIGGER-NUMBERS-WIN shitterfest.
Fix PvE elite areas so that they're not such a LOL-MY-BIGGER-NUMBERS-WIN shitterfest.
Del
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
Balancing is retarded. Stuff doesn't need buffs. Give monks energy. Oh wait...
Feeding your ego at others expense with your derps and other insults you enjoy adding. You brought up a profession that had a lot of issues in an area when others were discussing a profession that's in demand, useful, and strong. |
Cuilan
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Originally Posted by Del
I was arguing the hypocrisy in saying e management would make playing monk mindless, when you seemed to be extremely pro-mindlessness when it comes to mesmers being able to play mindlessly.
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Originally Posted by Del
In many situations, people take e/mo healers over monk healers because they don't have energy issues, they heal off of a split second heal with no recharge, so they can basically spam heals mindlessly, but I bet that's ok with you as well.
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Fast recharging or strong skills are dumb. Flare is elitelololol.
Del
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
The change in Mind Wrack never made it require less skill to use. You are more than likely assuming I use that skill.
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
My issues with Ether Renewal is with balance, not how much thought you have to put into it. However, considering there are so few players that can handle such a build to it's full potential, then maybe it just happens to be a spammy build that isn't fully mindless.
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
Fast recharging or strong skills are dumb. Flare is elitelololol.
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Cuilan
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Originally Posted by Del
Mind wrack promotes spamming skills on a target for damage. It takes no skill whatsoever to use MW, then spam surge and burn on them, there is no skill whatsoever to playing these builds.
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| Balance isn't about everyone having their own toy, balance is about maintaning a proper skill to effectiveness ratio. |
Del
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
You had to spam skills for the old Mind Wrack. Mind Wrack was also used just for Cry of Pain. Guess now you can do more with it and that makes it...mindless?
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Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
Balance is about having their own toy when you have more than one profession.
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AlsPals
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Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke
Tone down power levels on the Warrior, Necromancer, Mesmer, Monk, and Ritualist. In other words, balance the game for Normal Mode.
Fix PvE elite areas so that they're not such a LOL-MY-BIGGER-NUMBERS-WIN shitterfest. |
slowerpoke
I don't see the point of reinventing the wheel so late in the games life.
shoyon456
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Originally Posted by slowerpoke
I don't see the point of reinventing the wheel so late in the games life.
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It's nice and all that they're trying, but it'd take a lot more work to get me to bite that unappealing new hook.
On topic:
I always believed spear mastery was fairly well balanced, but simply unappealing for PvE. In PvE, Paragons are more useful for shouts, although I think that a lot of the support skills are very haphazard and unfocused. Unfortunately, when you're dealing with party-wide buffs that are for the most part unstrippable, balance will always be a problem.
Random Thought: Have the number of party members that some shouts affect scale with the attribute.
Ugh
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Originally Posted by shoyon456
Everyone should have figured the reason they're still trying to crank out meaningful skill balance updates is so that they can claim they actually try to balance their games while shoving their new spawn (GW2) down our throats.
It's nice and all that they're trying, but it'd take a lot more work to get me to bite that unappealing new hook. |
It's not perfect, of course, but it's a good start.
Quote:
| Random Thought: Have the number of party members that some shouts affect scale with the attribute. |
Edit: Proximity-basing would be terrible on heroes, though.
belshazaarswrath
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ugh
Which people would get buffed if there are 8 allies but a shout only affects 4? Would it just affect the closest ones? It would be interesting if paras had to think more about positioning, like they would have to move up to defend their frontline, drop back to give their midline energy, etc. It would also be a nice way to rebuff paras in PvP without letting them get OP. Edit: Proximity-basing would be terrible on heroes, though. |
Mintha Syl
Quote:
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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
I think he means the shout has less of an effect with more people in the party. So if the para was alone he'd get the full effect but if he was in a group they'd get less of an effect...which is kind of counter intuitive but might work if done right.
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Instead what Ugh said would be a nice thing in my opinion, a bit more of strategy never hurts and makes the game funnier.
aspi
Reading all this makes it pretty clear balancing is a very hard part of the game. I don't envy the test krewe or Anet.
Skyy High
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Originally Posted by AmbientMelody
a) Reduce the level of PvE foes and reduce all/most of extraordinary armour buffs to monsters. To compensate, vastly increase number of PvE monsters per each monster group. In case of monsters with extraordinary armour (e.g. better armour against fire or slashing damage), it should always accompany a logical weakness (which could be seen by looking at the monster), such as extra-vulnerable to water or blunt damage.
b) Rework HardMode. Remove the ridiculous level boost, faster casting on spells above 2 second casting, bonus movement & attacking speed and the others. To compensate, further increase the number of monsters, as well as monster variety per group (higher profession variety per group, different species mixing with each other into groups). Introduce randomness in group creation per instance as well as slight skillbar variations per individual monsters (e.g. standard bar with 3-5 skills plus 1-3 additional random skills from a chosen pool). Improve the monster AI, but still make it possible to aggro & pin down mobs with a 'tanking' character, to allow elementalists and other characters to nuke them more freely. |
It is a simple fact of all videogames: to be hard, the computer needs to cheat, because you are smarter than the game. If all of PvE was like Kryta is right now, I would be extremely happy. (Incidentally, the content that I'm seeing in the WiK is making me very, very hopeful that these lessons will carry over to GW2.)
Xiaquin
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Originally Posted by aspi
Reading all this makes it pretty clear balancing is a very hard part of the game. I don't envy the test krewe or Anet.
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belshazaarswrath
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Originally Posted by Mintha Syl
Uhm that would really make people go solo more often I believe.
Instead what Ugh said would be a nice thing in my opinion, a bit more of strategy never hurts and makes the game funnier. |