debuff on those goddamn white mantle
those bastards just don't die and in the area you'll only get like lvl 10 henchies?
what good are they?
PvE Balance: What else do you want to see?
N1ghtstalker
Mintha Syl
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
I was just explaining what I believe the other poster was saying...
|
I used your quote to comment that point, even if I know it's not yours.
Ugh
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
I think he means the shout has less of an effect with more people in the party. So if the para was alone he'd get the full effect but if he was in a group they'd get less of an effect...which is kind of counter intuitive but might work if done right.
|
But both would give much more diversity to paras' skills, make paras better in smaller groups, make paras require a bit more skill, and would be much better balancing techniques than constant nerfs.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by N1ghtstalker
debuff on those goddamn white mantle
those bastards just don't die and in the area you'll only get like lvl 10 henchies? what good are they? |
Or, instead of doing any of that, bring shittons of d0mage and blow everything up without using any real strategy or thought, like a true PvEer. They have normal armor in WiK, so killing shouldn't be too hard.
As for the henchmen problem... PUG or go HM?
Morphy
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shriketalon
Balance is relative.
Two twenty ton weights are in balance just as two feathers are in balance. PvE's balance depends not on the individual power level of the classes, but how their power relates to one another. Something is overpowered when it is vastly superior to everything else, something is underpowered when it is vastly inferior to everything else. Yes, there has been power creep. But since the average level of power has increased and the new standard has become the norm, the classes now "out of balance" are the ones who have not received such treatment. Ergo, there are only two solutions; nerf the hell out of everything and rework every update in the past three years, or raise the three or four classes currently underperforming up to par. The latter is simpler, easier, and gets people far more excited about the game. It also means monsters of those particular types get far more threatening and dangerous, which helps make PvE play more exciting. |
Shriketalon
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Morphy
What you're talking about has to do with balance (if two things have a different level of effectiveness on a certain level of play, they're imbalanced), but equal effectiveness isn't enough to call something balanced because powercreeping the game to the point where strategic decisions become irrelevant is also bad for balance.
|
That is not, of course, to say the AI could not use improvement. Gameplay would become infinitely better if the AI possessed the ability to detect that they aren't hurting an opponent and would switch to another target, or would assume formations like the Charr rather than being lead around by the nose and grouped together for easy AoE spiking.
But as long as most of the game's skills are worthless, monsters running those worthless skills will never compete with some of the bars people can currently build. Nerfing everything down to the level of skills like Arcing Shot wouldn't work, because it would mean pruning half the game. The occasional nerf combined with the redesigning of large sections of worthless skills, however, can get things closer towards an even playing field.
PuppyEater
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by aspi
Reading all this makes it pretty clear balancing is a very hard part of the game. I don't envy the test krewe or Anet.
|
AlsPals
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PuppyEater
Why pity anet? They dug their grave the second they tried stacking more cards on the house with Factions and it's been downhill from there...
|
Skyy High
Hey, I didn't see anyone on any forum think for one second that adding 2 professions and hundreds of skills to the game with each chapter was untenable before Factions' release. Hell, it was a big issue that there were something like 50 repeated skills in Factions, because I guess we just didn't get enough skill bloat already? It's all so obvious in hindsight, but that doesn't change the fact that not a one of you predicted it beforehand.
Besides, after they fixed sins and rits after Factions' release, the game was pretty well balanced. The Factions world championship is often cited as the best tournament in GW's history. Nightfall was really the straw that broke the camel's back, as it took much, much longer to tone down all the really OP-ed stuff that was introduced then (and a lot of it has never been toned down, leading to overall power creep in all chapters as skills were buffed to compensate).
Besides, after they fixed sins and rits after Factions' release, the game was pretty well balanced. The Factions world championship is often cited as the best tournament in GW's history. Nightfall was really the straw that broke the camel's back, as it took much, much longer to tone down all the really OP-ed stuff that was introduced then (and a lot of it has never been toned down, leading to overall power creep in all chapters as skills were buffed to compensate).
Countess Marie
The thing about balance, is it's kind of a one time thing. You have to start with balance. The lack of insight when it came to creating new professions new skills, and the way secondary skills work with primary attributes can not be fixed by a skill rebalance. Do you really want them to nerf everything that's overpowered and make everything that's underpowered overpowered?
If they make a subtle change, 90% of the community will not notice it, so at this point they are just dropping weights on either side of a scale.
It's only a short term fix. You don't want every class to be the same, do you? The problem, I believe, is that Guild Wars has certain roles in high-end pve. And those roles are played best by certain classes. There's really no way to change that unless you make the classes ineffective at doing what they do best.
You know? Make it so Mark of Pain can't kill. Make it so Shadow Form has a hit limit. Change UA back... do you really want to see them make changes like that?
Beyond that, I don't see how they can balance pve, and even then there is no real promise that the 'underpowered classes' will get play.
It's a design issue. It was inevitable. Ten classes is just too many.
-CM
If they make a subtle change, 90% of the community will not notice it, so at this point they are just dropping weights on either side of a scale.
It's only a short term fix. You don't want every class to be the same, do you? The problem, I believe, is that Guild Wars has certain roles in high-end pve. And those roles are played best by certain classes. There's really no way to change that unless you make the classes ineffective at doing what they do best.
You know? Make it so Mark of Pain can't kill. Make it so Shadow Form has a hit limit. Change UA back... do you really want to see them make changes like that?
Beyond that, I don't see how they can balance pve, and even then there is no real promise that the 'underpowered classes' will get play.
It's a design issue. It was inevitable. Ten classes is just too many.
-CM
Eluvatar
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shriketalon
That is not, of course, to say the AI could not use improvement. Gameplay would become infinitely better if the AI possessed the ability to detect that they aren't hurting an opponent and would switch to another target, or would assume formations like the Charr rather than being lead around by the nose and grouped together for easy AoE spiking.
|
Chthon
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Eluvatar
true, although all of the unbalanced builds in the game have nothing to do with tactics nor AoE skills, any noob could do ANYTHING in NM with a poor (no runes or weapons just a skill bar) setup and still kill everything without much trouble and it still has nothing to do with bad AI and is neither caused by unbalance but purely a side effect of the type of game guild wars is, at this point the only way to nerf allot of builds is to remove synergy between them which is what makes guild wars such a cool game, example: a manly spike uses at least 4 skills to preform, first you need a war with 100B that same war must also have Whirlwind attack, then you need a necro with MoP and a Ranger (or /ranger) with EoE to realy make the spike work, somtimes you will even want 2 wars and dmg buffs on your nec, to nerf this they would have to remove some synergy from the skills which is what is currently destroying guild wars.
|
Eluvatar
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Chthon
You neglect to mention the key part -- and the only truly broken part -- a Shadow Form sin to make a huge ball of monsters in the first place.
|
Del
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Eluvatar
thats weird I thought shadow form was nerfed... although it was many of the old runs are still possible although much harder for everyone then before and at this rate shadow form is not a problem, nor in my eyes are most speed clears, I think atm DwG is way OP and needs to be nerfed, hell I even use it on my ele for fun and it works great at blowing up WiK stuff.
|
Xiaquin
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Del
SF got buffed. less energy, more easily maintainable, and requires only minor build adjustments to be just about as godmode as before
|
UnChosen
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Xiaquin
One look at other skills in the game that block spells and you realize it's still overpowered. I don't think I've ever played any game in history that lets you do what SF allows. It's not as bad as before, but still ridiculous. Still funny to see someone bring it in JQ, though.
|
Other games have casters that can cast some sort of "barrier" spells that prevents every non-boss monsters from even getting close, so they can just stand there all day spamming one spell.
Just saying....
toocooltang
Actually high end pve (doa) is pretty balanced right now. There are multiple doasc caster spikes and the changes to SF and sliver armor have added a little bit of time to the average doa runs. Now you can do doa without sf in an amount of time pretty close to the average doasc (~10-15 minutes)
belshazaarswrath
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Xiaquin
One look at other skills in the game that block spells and you realize it's still overpowered.
|
Obsidian mixed with sfa and kinetic armor can pretty much mitigate anything.
Xiaquin
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by UnChosen
Actually ALOT of games in history does what SF does
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
I think Obsidian Flesh is a pretty cool guy. eh blox spells and doesn't afraid of anything.
Obsidian mixed with sfa and kinetic armor can pretty much mitigate anything. |
belshazaarswrath
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Xiaquin
Keywords: "mixed with". SF is sort of all-inclusive. You also pay 5x the cost, 2 energy pips and can't attack with OF. I was just comparing 1:1 on skills.
|
Fahhhh
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
I think Obsidian Flesh is a pretty cool guy. eh blox spells and doesn't afraid of anything.
Obsidian mixed with sfa and kinetic armor can pretty much mitigate anything. |
belshazaarswrath
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fahhhh
Was just about to say OF does about the same thing SF does. Nerf SF out of play and we'll see OF tanks. Nerf OF out of play and we'll be back to warrior tanks
|
But the point is they are both pretty damn good tanking skillz.
AncientLord
As this is my opinion, please keep that in mind.
Totaly nerf the A/ builds and add playstlye as it was back in 05/06 where every class was important.
Totaly nerf the A/ builds and add playstlye as it was back in 05/06 where every class was important.
belshazaarswrath
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by AncientLord
Totaly nerf the A/ builds and add playstlye as it was back in 05/06 where every class was important.
|
rkubik
Forget the balance all I really want to see and only want to see is fresh new content. Why continue to bog down the dev team with crappy balancing that just ends up pissing people off more and more. In my opinion the only thing to keep new and existing people playing would be new content.
PuppyEater
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by rkubik
Forget the balance all I really want to see and only want to see is fresh new content. Why continue to bog down the dev team with crappy balancing that just ends up pissing people off more and more. In my opinion the only thing to keep new and existing people playing would be new content.
|
betterjonjon
Do people really believe a balance is possible anymore? With all the skills that are in the game there will almost always be skills overpowered and skills that wont ever be used. What I think they should do is just change which skills are overpowered every month to give people something new to do. But for some reason everyone wants "balance", which imo sounds pretty dang boring in a game like this.
belshazaarswrath
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by betterjonjon
Do people really believe a balance is possible anymore? With all the skills that are in the game there will almost always be skills overpowered and skills that wont ever be used. What I think they should do is just change which skills are overpowered every month to give people something new to do. But for some reason everyone wants "balance", which imo sounds pretty dang boring in a game like this.
|
If they never changed skills around though the game would have been cricketville long ago. Changing skills around makes thing interesting and fun...for awhile at least.
R_Frost
what i would like to see............... stop the power creep way of skill balancing. fix the problems with the game instead of buffing the skills to counter the problems. my biggest wish, go through the game and balance the mob make-up while at the same time give them 2 or 3 random skill bars they can spawn with. that would provide more of a challenge then the current HM design. give the hero/hench AI the same treatment as the enemy AI when it comes to AoE scatter. fix the skills to where its more beneficial to be a primary then loading your bar with secondary skills due to poor game machanics. reduce what the skill does from 1-12 in the attribute while buffing 13-16. a N/rt shouldnt be able to out play a primary Rit. a E/Mo protter shouldnt out prot a primary Monk, stuff like that. something ive always wanted as a ranger, a beast mastery staff and some love toward the beast mastery line. im sure theres alot of other stuff but lets face it, the live team is small now, its probably easier to continue what they are doing then fixing problems that have been around for many years with GW2 due next year.