If Ether Renewal is/isn't Nerfed...

Ether Renewal is the Shadow Form of Elementalists: Overpowered.

Providing insane protection and heals, it's the must have spell for PvE.

Looking at previous nerfs, Ursan, Shadowform and 600 monks should Ether Renewal be nerfed?

Ursan was overpowered, required almost no skill to play, requires a high title level and warriors/paragons were the Ursan of choice for their higher armor levels. Roll face on keyboard and win.
This nerf was a no brainer, no Ursan, no team. End of story.

Shadowform was a obvious to nerf, Assassins + Shadowform = $$$. People preferred to have Assassins for tanks even though if there was no tank-n-spank team involved. UW always had UWSC after it. 10 minute elite area was way to fast.

600 monks, same deal, running dungeons for people equals easy cash. If you shouted, LFG CoF HM people would react, lolwut?! Pay 2k n00b for a run.

The next target of over powered skills nerfed is Ether Renewal, keeping a team in near god mode while increasing damage of the physicals.

Cons-
Out of this world energy and healing, this one doesn't need to be explained.
Spamming of the most costly powerful monk spells with no draw back, Infuse Health was meant for PvP for anti-spikes, fastest casting with no recharge was built for PvP anti-spiking. The draw back is it cost half health. Protective Bond has a insanely powerful protection with a draw back that makes it completely unusable.
Easily maintain ER, even with some enchantment denial. Just like shadow form this can only get removed if either you screwed up or your team does.

Pros-
Not a monk replacer, ER's can't bring hex, condition removal, res without a strong sacrifice of power. If an ER infusers energy hits 0 because ER was stripped, GG, the team is stuck without heals for about 15 seconds. ER infusers might have more healing power, but the monks has more spell diversity.
Not invincible, Ether Renewal is the ER infusers glass key for success. That spell dies = your team dies, simple as that.
Elementalists useful, if ER was nerfed the only option in HM for a useful elementalist would be support. Reducing a class usefulness by end game would suck. More options the better.

Why is this important?
Guild Wars 2 being a year or two away it's obviously on the to-do list. Looking at previous game changing nerfs, plus ER infuse popularity rising (Playing ER infuse a year ago, I was laughed at each time I joined a group "infuse spam, lolwutwtfomfgrolfbqq") it's going to be on the problem radar some day.

As a community-
People hated Ursan for being overpowered, people hated Shadowform for being overpowered, people hated 600 monks for being overpowered, do people hate Ether Renewal?

I for one don't mind keeping ER. They're good red-bar-up guys, but if anything happens, they're in big trouble. Enchant removal happens, one well-placed Chilblains means your healing powers go down when you need them most. Yes, it heals and gives a truckload of energy, but only to yourself, so you have to keep infusing the team, spam heal party (long cast), and... well, you're still suffering from the other problems, like interrupts, shame, backfire, and diversion. Those are less likely to annoy you in PvE, but PvE is overpowered anyway. (most eles still run a pure nuking build, so it's not like everyone realizes the power of ER)

You mean I can't normally infuse half my health into a person and actually GAIN health? And heal party is so costly it can't be spammed normally?

Nerf it so it still has functionality, but isn't absolutely ridiculous.

Off topic, nerf DWG by adding 1s cast, 10e, 20 sec recharge. Thank you very much.

/signed.

You kill ER, you kill probably the only good Elementalist build for HM. I think every other mage class has armor-ignoring damage, Elementalist doesn't really have viable options.

Pretty strong, and although i don't actually give a shit, i do think it's lame that eles can outheal monks, but hey, they have to be useful somehow right?

Barely seen any1 using ER for HM actually i dont run it on my ele but hence i couldnt care less. I never bothered with that skill so doesnt matter how OP it is atm i just wanna see SF nerfed more then and dwg.

People do SC so much so it will be nothing left of value except the ectos.

It's a niche roll, and I should think hardly suiting of a nerf. ER is yet another option in build versatility that takes skills that otherwise fail to see use, and gives them purpose.
That -energy bit on Prot Bond makes it the secondary option for monks, with a small range of builds that can properly utilize it's benefits. ER makes it more practical and viable. In more or less the same way, Infuse is given more purpose in PvE, with more lasting and practical use.
It's just another versatility enhancement. As far as ER goes, it certainly can't solo UW or DoA. Instead, it is a team oriented skill that functions only as well as the team's overall composition does.

There's no way I would support this.

At least until Anet reads the "Let's Fix Ele" thread in the class specific forum and do something about the horrendous damage they get in HM.

Then they can delete ER if they want.

I don't think there' much wrong with it. Sure it might be in some of the UWSC builds, and does provide invincibility to en extent, but unless they're organised these teams usually fail.

Back onto ER itself, it's no-where near as strong as SF and 600/smite was, and since it has no spell immunity, you could only use it against physicals.

I think it gives eles a nice was to provide prots and orders, otherwise and I just revert to Discord Team.

Edit@ and I didn't hate 600, it wasn't even close to the strength of SF

Im indifferent.

Well said. A very gimmicky build. Not really threatening.

To origional poster it seems to me like your Q.Qing because back when you used it it was hated but now its a widely used build i personally dont own an ele with that build but i never mind when in hardmode i have an ele with a ER build because it actually works well and sorry but we nerf enough how about anet just gives everyone who wants nerfs skills that do absolutly nothing so that it fits said persons agenda's

I didn't even mind the 600 monk to be honest. Don't care much for the ER skill either.

Ursan and yes the skill that never should have been created shadowform I agree with.

Ether Renewal is retardedly overpowered.

However, so is pretty much any skill that has a PvE/PvP split.

No way should it be nerfed.

Unlike Ursan / 600 / Shadow Form, ER is ***NOT*** invincible. Enchant removal single handedly completely destroys the entire build, and the skills that the build uses are hardy ever used normally (No monk ever takes Shield Guardian, Convert Hexes, Extiguish, or Infuse in PVE, if they do then theyre doing something very wrong).

Other classes have completely overpowered builds in PVE as well - Necros (go go N/Rts and Sabway), Mesmers (with the recent oodles of buffs), Monks (UA + HB are extremely powerful in PVE), and ellys can hit foes in HM for maybe around 6-19 damage with their most powerful non armor ignoring skills.

All builds that were nerfed in PvE were because they affected the economy, not because they were too powerful, isn't it?

So in that regard, ER doesn't really affect the economy. It's a niche build, you can't farm or do SC with it.
That said, if other aspects of the Ele were buffed, I wouldn't mind an ER nerf.

Ether Renewal isn't the Elementalist's Shadow Form. It's their "Save Yourselves!". The Renewal Infuser build seems very similar to the Imbagon from my perspective. Nerf the key skills in either build to remove it from its pedestal of power, and what do you have to replace it?

I would, of course, support a nerf of either Ether Renewal and "SY!", but those can't be standalone changes. Something else has to be done somewhere else to keep the Elementalist or Paragon from being totally overlooked in HM PvE.

It promotes team play not soloing, it's not really shadow form or a 600 monk so whats the problem?

I don't think it's close to SF or 600. There is only one or two farm builds I know of with ER as the elite. And those are not at all as popular or efficient as any number of other farm builds.

It is tied to the Ele primary so other classes can't use it. Unlike other previously mentioned nerfed skills. I don't see this as good or bad but it will probably cause the non-eles to QQ and the eles to say leave it be.

It provides Ele's something to do in end game PvE. It also allows other classes to be played in end game areas so anything that supports balanced group play is fine in my opinion.

Wait SF got nerfed? I guess I should tell all the SCers in Vloxx......

ER...not really a big issue...things still take a while and require effort. Plus, like others have said...take away ER and Eles are only left with OF and possibly(coordianted) SF for HM

Dervish fixes first; then worry about caster skills.

I, for one, don't. Not because it isn't overpowered (it is), but because it's the only option most eles have for HM. Due to the insane amounts of armor in HM, eles can't do much outside of utility. Sure, they can blind and ward, but that gets old fast and no team in an elite area needs that.

Until Anet provides HM alternatives to ER for eles, I think this skill should remain untouched. Nerfing it w/o somehow improving eles' ability to do what eles should be able to do in HM (elemental damage) would be ridiculous.

I think the skill is OPed. But, as many have said, eles don't have many other viable options. When Anet gets around to buffing eles (which is going to be awhile) then they can nerf ER. Even then, idk, it's a build that doesn't work everywhere...

ANet don't care about balance, why should we?

I'm in the process of revisiting my elementalist right now. It's a great skill but even in NM it can be stripped and leave you dead in the water. As was discussed in the other ele thread, the profession is weak once you start hitting armored monsters. Any nerf to ER needs to be balanced by some sort of buff making the ele nuker viable again (which needs to be done).

I was thinking about a buff to the currently worthless skill Intensity. I was thinking of something along the lines of:

Intensity - Enchantment, for every rank of energy storage your spells have 3% armor penetration for foes with more armor than you. (Make it maintainable with 13 energy storage and a 20% enchant mod)

I'm indifferent. The build seems easy and spammy at first, but it does have a bit of a learning curve. I prefer playing with ER eles over monks because monks tend to be the more retarded players.
We should care because we play the game...?

The players don't care about balance, so why would ANet work on it?

ER is a powerfull skill, but eles do not take the place of monks in any way, they add something to teams. ER isnt in the way of anything, or causing any trouble in PvE. Its not affecting the economy or the community, its used by the community. Its not like ToA is full of ppl shouting "Group looking for 6 ER's to go"

I really do not see the problem.

/notsigned

nothing in this game "takes skill." just because you click more skills doesnt mean it makes you a better player. ursan was just overpowered

also, i didnt hate ursan because it was overpowered or SF or 600. all these builds made me rich and SF still does with all the SCing

Nerf or change ER and buff eles' damage.

Wouldn't making Intensity more maintainable and making it give armor penetration pretty much solve eles' damage problems? I don't play ele so I could be making it more simple than it actually is, but to me, that seems like all eles need to be viable damage dealers. Also, it wouldn't require any PvE/P splits. And even if that's not all that needs to be done, it's something relatively simple that could surely be tacked on in the next update.

I absolutely love this skill and always loved it even after the heavy nerf in 2005. I was using it in some builds even with just 8 seconds duration (just like the pre buff SF), so obviously the way-over-the-top buff was as much of a shocker for me as the SF buff.

The skill is now blatantly overpowered, but PvE seems to be all about that - OP skills. At least it doesn't have anywhere near that devastating effect on the game as other imba skills did. And quite to contrary, it has quite a positive effect of providing another healing profession, which reduces the pain of needing to find 2 monks to complete a team. It's better to have more viable backlines and now almost all HM content can be defeated with just 1 monk + 1 Rit or 1 monk + 1 ER/infuse. Practically even zero monk backlines like ER + rit or 2 ER do very fine, yet players still pick monks above everything else - as a monk I don't see ER eles making it harder for me to group.

I'd like to see a minor nerf to it so it can't be maintained and so it requires more skill to time it properely, BUT before doing that Anet should better rebalance the entire Elementalist profession. Eles do have some uses in HM gameplay but they're mostly reduced to gimmicks like the ER or Obsidian Flesh, as their damage output is pretty crappy vs heavily armored HM mobs. Eles should be a Damage and Utility class, yet neither dmg nor utility spells are useful in high end PvE.

ER is the only reason to have an ele. I don't even think it's overpowered really. In order to permanently maintain it you need an enchant mod and another skill (or cons). It only heals and gives energy to you. What's the problem? Nerf the skills that get abused with it (heal party infuse ect...) if you want to tone it down. Ele's more so than paragons need a bone. Or they'll have nothing at all to stand on.

Due to the bad builds of many PvE monsters and by absolute standards bad AI the originally role of the ele (burst damage and (defensive) support) is helpful to have, but not as powerful as other options and therefor rather unpopular. Ether Renewal is often the only ele build that is better than other options and therefor quite popular.
ER is overpowered, but with the current design of PvE I don't see how nerfing ER will improve the game as a whole.

ER is overpowered and therefore needs a nerf. I use it and I love it but I'm not going to delude myself saying it is fine as it is. Nerf it at the same time intensity or elemental lord is buffed to give armor penetration.

If they make Ether Renewal last longer and shorten the recharge; but have it only effecting elementalist skills, I'd be fine with that.

Really? Nerfing the only thing eles can do to be in the meta teams of elite area's? and its only "overpowered'if they have the ER infuse build, so KEEP IT.

BTW Shadowform always survived the nerfs... so why would ANET kill ER off.

This may still end up being the best healer as there are already heavy bonding ERs spamming burning speed for energy. However I think this is a good first step towards making the skill sane and would be a good starting point for the test crew.

Its been said before, but needs repeating. ER is not Ursan, SF, 600 or Rt Solo. 600 required at the very least a Hero, and therfore was not truly soloable. SF was barely nerfed, it just got a little slap on the wrist. SF is still popular in many SCs, and makes you almost invincible at all times. Rt SoS solo combines the mindlessness of Ursan with the near invulnerability of SF. The beauty of Rt solo is that it takes no skill, can be used in any area, and doesnt even require you to engage the enemy with anything but one pull from a longbow.

ER on the other hand is not used to solo farm. It does however provide more options for a team, in the form of a possible healer or orders. And most people would still prefer to have at least one real monk. Yes its a damn good healer but it doesnt make monks obsolete. If two ERs were more in demand than 2 Monks, then I might agree it needs a nerf. But until that happens its fine the way it is. And like everyone else has said, PvE Ele damage is subpar and could use some love.

And the people that want a DwG nerf make me lol myself. Name somewhere besides DoA that a DwG team is being used. No its ok, ill wait..... cant do it can you. Now take into account that you can replace DwG with ANY caster spike and get the same effect. Its just a popular build to use right now. As matter of fact there are builds for DoA HM that use Mesmers and take the same amount of time. But I dont see any QQs to nerf Keystone Signet.

Ether Renewal is a balanced skill, only when not taking secondary professions into account.

As against the balancing option of "Ok, lets just have it disable non-ele spells for 20 seconds" as I usually am for skills, in this case, it's just what Ether Renewal needs.

Have it disable all monk skills when used, and you'll have a balanced skill. Elementalists have enough energy management options that this would not kill being a 'healing ele' per-say, but stop it from being spammed to death with infuse.

But yes, it needs a nerf badly.