I don't fully understand the case of the secondary class abuse. Might sound ignorant, but secondaries are "abused" on every profession, and they're all accepted (apart from perhaps mesmers' fastcasting got nerfed for secondary attributes). ER eles, melee Rangers, resto necs, derv healers.
It only makes sense to give the dervish's primary attribute some use with it's OWN skills, as the others do theirs, as well as secondary attributes. What was Mysticism first intended to do? Have there been any major Mysticism nerfs?
Dervish update preview please
HigherMinion
Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion
It only makes sense to give the dervish's primary attribute some use with it's OWN skills, as the others do theirs, as well as secondary attributes. What was Mysticism first intended to do? Have there been any major Mysticism nerfs?
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- Mysticism was nerfed prior the release of Nightfall. Used to give 1 energy every 2 ranks of Mysticism, and 3 health every rank of Mysticism.
To put it inline with the Mesmer changes, Mysticism could be reverted to the pre-release status, with some energy costs of attacks increased to compensate. This way:
- Secondaries could still use Scythes and Scythes attack, but would need to consider e-management better, even as an Assassin primary.
- Primaries would be the best users due to the built-in e-management.
Otherwise, some inherent effect on enchantments could also help, like, reduced recharge times of dervish enchantments. This way you could use them more often, on recharge, and trigger Mysticism more for e-management. The Dervish would also have a mantainable IAS in the form of HoF, and primaries could be the sole profession to be able to mantain AoHM effectively.
The Josip
I for one find energy-gain primary attributes very boring. Necromancer, Ranger, and Elementalists should have stayed with e-gain primaries. All other professions needed to have some other benefit.
Paragon was supposed to be a combination of adrenaline and energy skills - which is 'energy gain' in itself. And cost of these skills should have been balanced based on Paragon's energy ability.
Assassin needed to have some bonus other than e-gain. What did they get instead - more spammability. 1sec recharge attack skill? lol. A chain-attack hit-n-run class became spam class. How ironic. The problem should have been solved not by adding spammability but same way mesmer buff went. Shadow Form is one way assassin was unique, there could've been others - like, heck, better dealing with a boss so assassin would at least pay off in the end. But no.. but like with mesmer, ANet prefers to give bosses immunity to interruptions and disable spells such as Diversion and Blackout, so mesmers had no chance.
Same for Dervishes. Mysticism should not be about energy gain. YAWN. Be more creative will ya? I'd much rather have something interesting like, I dunno, "when enchantment ends on you, all adjacent foes are dazed for 1..3 seconds". Just brainstorming, but you get the point.
Paragon was supposed to be a combination of adrenaline and energy skills - which is 'energy gain' in itself. And cost of these skills should have been balanced based on Paragon's energy ability.
Assassin needed to have some bonus other than e-gain. What did they get instead - more spammability. 1sec recharge attack skill? lol. A chain-attack hit-n-run class became spam class. How ironic. The problem should have been solved not by adding spammability but same way mesmer buff went. Shadow Form is one way assassin was unique, there could've been others - like, heck, better dealing with a boss so assassin would at least pay off in the end. But no.. but like with mesmer, ANet prefers to give bosses immunity to interruptions and disable spells such as Diversion and Blackout, so mesmers had no chance.
Same for Dervishes. Mysticism should not be about energy gain. YAWN. Be more creative will ya? I'd much rather have something interesting like, I dunno, "when enchantment ends on you, all adjacent foes are dazed for 1..3 seconds". Just brainstorming, but you get the point.
reaper with no name
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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt
Well, those are changes being suggested here. Mysticism doesn't work like that right now. If Mysticism is improved, then ok.
As we don't know yet wether Mysticism will be changed, and if it is, how... well, some suggestions could only work if Mysticism is reworked (and that's not as obvious as you seem to make it), otherwise, forcing primaries to spec into a useless attribute line just to nerf the competition isn't making the dervish any good. I still don't think ditching the dual-class possibilities is an improvement for the game. The Dervish needs to improve and be competitive with other melee classes, not the other way 'round. It's the Dervish who needs to turn into a profession worth playing, not the A/D or W/D rendered worthless so that we have no choice. |
And you want to make the dervish "competitive" through nothing but buffs? Assuming for the moment that "competitive" implies more than one worthwhile build, we'd have to be talking about some insane buffs across the board.
The thing that a lot of people aren't getting is that the dervish would be very competitive if it weren't for other professions doing it's stuff better. If W/Ds and A/Ds got nerfed tomorrow, no one would say "oh, dervishes are underpowered".
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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt
- Some use with its own skills is fine. Tying pretty much anything that makes scythes worth using (hi-crits, hitting multiple adjacent targets, AoHM) to Mysticism is actually just a nerf to secondaries, without any significant improvement for primaries. Dervishes would still be sub-par, and Warriors/Assassins/Rangers just a little worse at using a Scythe.
- Mysticism was nerfed prior the release of Nightfall. Used to give 1 energy every 2 ranks of Mysticism, and 3 health every rank of Mysticism. To put it inline with the Mesmer changes, Mysticism could be reverted to the pre-release status, with some energy costs of attacks increased to compensate. This way: - Secondaries could still use Scythes and Scythes attack, but would need to consider e-management better, even as an Assassin primary. - Primaries would be the best users due to the built-in e-management. Otherwise, some inherent effect on enchantments could also help, like, reduced recharge times of dervish enchantments. This way you could use them more often, on recharge, and trigger Mysticism more for e-management. The Dervish would also have a mantainable IAS in the form of HoF, and primaries could be the sole profession to be able to mantain AoHM effectively. |
Zealous vow builds require 3 energy per second just for the attack skills alone. Even if Mysticism were as powerful as Soul Reaping it wouldn't be able to offer enough energy to do what the dervish has to do. You'd have to make mysticism as powerful as expertise to do that. And if it can't replace zealous vow and free up a skill slot, then the dervish remains in the same boat. And even if it was that powerful, the current functionality of it (requiring enchantments to be spammed on you to be worthwhile) would still make the dervish a suboptimal choice.
makosi
I'm actually dreading the dervish updates because the new standard of 'balance' is head-roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and win.
Damage is too high and fast right now for another damage class to be super-duper spam 'n' win.
Damage is too high and fast right now for another damage class to be super-duper spam 'n' win.
G4ymBoy
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Originally Posted by makosi
I'm actually dreading the dervish updates because the new standard of 'balance' is head-roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and win.
Damage is too high and fast right now for another damage class to be super-duper spam 'n' win. |
I do like the faster pace of combat but part of me loved the longer fights (i know i am weird >.>). I mean I have friends in my groups that barely get to do any damage because the melee had already destroyed most of the enemies. Not trying to rant just pointing out what i liked about GW before pve skills (I still love it even with the pve skills).
belshazaarswrath
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Originally Posted by G4ymBoy
Hmm, I see what you mean and my comment might make me more unpopular. I Would love to see Monsters get a ton more HP (maybe lower armor a bit) just to match the power creep of the updates and pve skills. Before pve skills things died fast enough and people had to think about their bar more than just "use 5 skills and add 3 from this OP list" and fights lasted longer.
I do like the faster pace of combat but part of me loved the longer fights (i know i am weird >.>). I mean I have friends in my groups that barely get to do any damage because the melee had already destroyed most of the enemies. Not trying to rant just pointing out what i liked about GW before pve skills (I still love it even with the pve skills). |
Essence Snow
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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
I agree with this. I also think that there should be more epic boss fights. Imagine if every zone had a rotscale or great destroyer like creature? That'd be fun.
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makosi
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Originally Posted by G4ymBoy
I Would love to see Monsters get a ton more HP (maybe lower armor a bit) just to match the power creep of the updates and pve skills.
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Increasing monsters' HP and reducing armour would even things out a bit between classes IMO.
belshazaarswrath
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
I agree with Rotscale, but the Great Destroyer was a joke...dies within 30secs...nothing epic bout that.
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Anyway I hope you are getting my point...epic boss battles. Not flimsy slightly stronger than the other monster monster battles.
G4ymBoy
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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
Well imagine if you had to content with him and a whole zone of destroyers and other various builds.
Anyway I hope you are getting my point...epic boss battles. Not flimsy slightly stronger than the other monster monster battles. |
belshazaarswrath
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Originally Posted by G4ymBoy
I like this. It would really make vanqing each area fun or possibly a challange and the "final boss mob" of each area is only available after all other foes are vanquished. Would make me really want to finish vanqing.
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In Guild Wars 2 maybe?
G4ymBoy
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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
Yea that's probably a good idea. It would be even better if every boss could have their own unique twist. But this is obviously asking for too much from the staff at this point...
In Guild Wars 2 maybe? |
belshazaarswrath
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Originally Posted by G4ymBoy
As far as areas go in GW2 we can only speculate, my guess is they will be much much bigger. Added bosses does seem like a lot to ask (unless they just take a monster and scale its size and buff it) but changing the way hp and armor work for monsters would not be nearly as time consuming. We can only wish really.
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jazilla
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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
Well if they were to do what I suggested I wouldn't want some half assed boss buffs. That'd just be annoying. Maybe in the Guild Wars Beyond content they can do a few zones like this?
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belshazaarswrath
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Originally Posted by jazilla
they did already with some of the boss quests for wik. some of those the first go-around when you didn't know what to expect were pretty tough even in NM.
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Fallen Conspirator
More than anything, I personally would like to see the dervish balanced before any other update or balancing content or skill wise. that it gets more play time in competitive pvp formats as well as more play time in high end PVE. i am getting sick of being denied groups because of my being a derv. I am sick of the derv not having it's own unique niche to fill, its own personal role within a group that IS valuable to the team.
now for a rant/address/plea that is slightly but only in a round about way unrelated to this threads OP...
ok. guys at ANET, TK or whomever this should be addressed to (or to whomever from the forementioned depts is in charge of reading the community forums,) I understand you have been busy as of late with people leaving, differnet conventions, the GoA, people being relocated, WiK, and random preplanned events, but for the love of god please fix the bastardous 4 year old delinquent stepchild that is the dervish. it's been an issue from the very get-go. This project has been something you have been looking to finish since late last year, and to quote a member of the Krewe "seriously rework" since march of this year. at the very least, let us know that you are working on it.
guys, it's been 6 months now. please before you dedicate your attention to anything else, rework the derv. Fix it. then after all is said and done, then move on with the content pushes.
Devote all of your resources to getting 1 thing done at a time and not spreading thin your focuses. this allows for superior things to be accomplished and from there reduces the amount of future reworking.
that's how progress is made. Please. DO this.
now for a rant/address/plea that is slightly but only in a round about way unrelated to this threads OP...
ok. guys at ANET, TK or whomever this should be addressed to (or to whomever from the forementioned depts is in charge of reading the community forums,) I understand you have been busy as of late with people leaving, differnet conventions, the GoA, people being relocated, WiK, and random preplanned events, but for the love of god please fix the bastardous 4 year old delinquent stepchild that is the dervish. it's been an issue from the very get-go. This project has been something you have been looking to finish since late last year, and to quote a member of the Krewe "seriously rework" since march of this year. at the very least, let us know that you are working on it.
guys, it's been 6 months now. please before you dedicate your attention to anything else, rework the derv. Fix it. then after all is said and done, then move on with the content pushes.
Devote all of your resources to getting 1 thing done at a time and not spreading thin your focuses. this allows for superior things to be accomplished and from there reduces the amount of future reworking.
that's how progress is made. Please. DO this.
Xiaquin
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Originally Posted by G4ymBoy
I Would love to see Monsters get a ton more HP (maybe lower armor a bit) just to match the power creep of the updates and pve skills. Before pve skills things died fast enough and people had to think about their bar more than just "use 5 skills and add 3 from this OP list" and fights lasted longer.
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I've never felt discriminated against as a derv, but I have wanted to kill some in pugs, myself, for being more of a liability than help. You don't have much armor as one, but many people don't realize they need to compensate for that somehow.
Cuilan
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Originally Posted by Xiaquin
I've never felt discriminated against as a derv, but I have wanted to kill some in pugs, myself, for being more of a liability than help. You don't have much armor as one, but many people don't realize they need to compensate for that somehow.
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Lishy
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Originally Posted by makosi
I'm actually dreading the dervish updates because the new standard of 'balance' is head-roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and win.
Damage is too high and fast right now for another damage class to be super-duper spam 'n' win. |
What's up with this mentality anyway?
Killed u man
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Originally Posted by Lishy
I don't get it.. If Guild Wars isn't about spamming damage skills on recharge, on an offensive profession, what is? The only builds that don't do that are interrupters, and healers.
What's up with this mentality anyway? |
If you had a single skill that could kill all foes on the radar, it would be extremely awesome, but it comes at the cost that:
A) The game will become really boring extremely fast
and
*unrelated* B) Gold and items will be devalued to worthless in no time
And despite the fact that Guild Wars is an old game, many people would still rather have a challenge rather than an autopilot, simply because playing the game is more fun than having the game play for you.
Over the years, Anet have been buffing and buffing in PvE to such an extend that almost every item is worthless, gold is worthless, and people have no ways of accumulating real wealth outside of powertrading/merchanting. (Which is nothing but a legalized form of scamming)
Xiaquin
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
Dervish armor is fine. Convince your pugs to bring prots and damage mitigation. If they don't, they are a liability.
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Originally Posted by Lishy
/snip/ What's up with this mentality anyway?
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belshazaarswrath
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Originally Posted by Killed u man
Over the years, Anet have been buffing and buffing in PvE to such an extend that almost every item is worthless, gold is worthless, and people have no ways of accumulating real wealth outside of powertrading/merchanting. (Which is nothing but a legalized form of scamming)
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G4ymBoy
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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
This has a lot more to do with the introduction of inscriptions than powerful builds in my opinion.
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So yes before inscriptions getting items with the desired inherent mod, not just that but a perfect mod was an expensive purchase. I mean the longbow I have is not the most amazing skin bht getting those mods was quite rare at the time.
IrishX
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Originally Posted by Xiaquin
Have to disagree. As a front-liner it's your job to be able to handle yourself and take the brunt of attacks. Dumping all responsibility to your party to protect *you* is just silly.
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belshazaarswrath
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Originally Posted by G4ymBoy
I really do think this is true. I remember an old friend who bought me a bow as a gift when it was just proph, the bow was 15^50 20/20 +30 q8 feathered longbow. It cost him 80k at the time. (I still use it every day).
So yes before inscriptions getting items with the desired inherent mod, not just that but a perfect mod was an expensive purchase. I mean the longbow I have is not the most amazing skin bht getting those mods was quite rare at the time. |
Anyway yea getting a nice skin wasn't the only factor back in the day. If you had a great skin and crap mods you could kiss the money goodbye. While at the same time if you had a crap skin and great mods you might have a little bit of money on your hands.
Ah but those days are long since past. I swear heroes and inscriptions are what hurt PvE more than anything.
Cuilan
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Originally Posted by Xiaquin
Have to disagree. As a front-liner it's your job to be able to handle yourself and take the brunt of attacks. Dumping all responsibility to your party to protect *you* is just silly.
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belshazaarswrath
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
Then that front liner is worthless. You're not doing your group any favor by devoting your bar to self preservation at the cost of damage. You can still tank 'n spank while killing stuff or not tank 'n spank at all and just kill stuff.
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Having higher armor doesn't equate to dealing less damage.
reaper with no name
Cuilan was responding to the implication that it's better for a melee frontliner to focus on defense than on killing stuff. He's not talking about a class's innate survivability.
Xiaquin
I didn't say one should devote the bar to defense, but as a dervish you have plenty of access to those skills. You shouldn't run a full bar of attacks, either, that's often reckless.
Edit: The case wasn't that a front-liner should focus more on defense, that's not what I said. I said a derv should have something to help them survive.
Edit: The case wasn't that a front-liner should focus more on defense, that's not what I said. I said a derv should have something to help them survive.
reaper with no name
No, you should also bring Aura of Holy Might, Asuran Scan, and Save Yourselves at the very least. 
But assuming that you can fuel your attacks (hello Zealous Vow), yes, it's generally better to bring offense, because if your party is any good, any defense you bring will prove redundant. And if your party isn't good, then bringing a tiny bit of defense won't help, because it will only affect 1/8th of the party.
But assuming that you can fuel your attacks (hello Zealous Vow), yes, it's generally better to bring offense, because if your party is any good, any defense you bring will prove redundant. And if your party isn't good, then bringing a tiny bit of defense won't help, because it will only affect 1/8th of the party.
belshazaarswrath
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Cuilan was responding to the implication that it's better for a melee frontliner to focus on defense than on killing stuff. He's not talking about a class's innate survivability.
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Xiaquin
I've played on both sides (melee and back line), and nothing irks me more than knowing my front-line put no effort into self-preservation. I'm not asking for much in a pug, even 1 good skill can go a long way, such as Conviction or Armor of Sanctity. Just do something instead of nothing.
Cuilan
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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
I mean conviction/pious renewal are there for a reason. Faithful intervention is also good for covering your ass.
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Originally Posted by Xiaquin
You shouldn't run a full bar of attacks, either, that's often reckless.
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Sirius Bsns
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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath
Oh...well obviously. But you should bring some kind of defensive stuff...I mean conviction/pious renewal are there for a reason. Faithful intervention is also good for covering your ass.
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belshazaarswrath
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Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns
Faithful Intervention takes too long to cast and has a greater recharge than Watchful Intervention. That, and you can only use it on yourself as opposed to Watchful. Conviction is fairly decent. Pious Renewal outside of a dervish healer is not worth an elite slot, tbh...
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Cuilan
I don't know how you confused Vow of Piety with Pious Renewal?
Xiaquin
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
You should have enough attack skills to boost your damage and skills that boost the damage of your attack skills while maintaining energy.
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StormX
Not this tired argument again...If you want to bring a bar full of attacks and charge into the fray scythes blazing go ahead but don't be surprised if you start racking up dp, seeing as the average pug monk can't prot for shit. (Recalls a bogroot run where the monks managed to let me die like a dozen times even with 700+ hp boosted by cons. yeah, that was epic FAIL, cause someone died every few minutes)
I'd only consider running all out offensive with H/H, those at least are moderately reliable.
and yes, I'm talking HM here. why can't you spare 2-3 skill slots to supplement your measley 70 AR? A dervish has no heavy armor or shield unlike a warrior..
ps. the point of faithful intervention is its infinite duration, so that you can use skills that require you to be enchanted without stopping to cast an enchant every few seconds
I'd only consider running all out offensive with H/H, those at least are moderately reliable.
and yes, I'm talking HM here. why can't you spare 2-3 skill slots to supplement your measley 70 AR? A dervish has no heavy armor or shield unlike a warrior..
ps. the point of faithful intervention is its infinite duration, so that you can use skills that require you to be enchanted without stopping to cast an enchant every few seconds
belshazaarswrath
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
I don't know how you confused Vow of Piety with Pious Renewal?
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