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Originally Posted by Tombguard321
Maybe they learned their lesson over the thunderhead keep monk strike :-) but at least heroes fix that.
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Your Inner Monk Demon
MisterB
dancing gnome
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Originally Posted by MisterB
The henchmen made the THK monk strike ineffective and irrelevant, unless the party leader didn't know what they were doing. Heroes are not required anywhere in Prophecies normal mode, and never have been. They just accelerate success and allow completion of hard mode content (excepting BLA, as far as I know).
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Wish Swiftdeath
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Originally Posted by dancing gnome
Thunderhead Keep was known as the noob filter for a reason. Back in the day there was no PvX wiki so it wasn't uncommon to find incredibly terribad party bars. Players were incredibly inefficient, many didn't have elite skills yet, 4 out of 8 people didn't have infused armour (it's not that different these days) and the skill pools were far smaller. Over time the mission has become SIGNIFICANTLY easy as many of the above factors have changed. Player have better bars, more skills to become more efficient, most players know what they are doing and the mission has never changed. Player bars were buffed but monster bars don't have the luxury of mixing around skills from all campaigns and taking advantage of the new flavour of the month builds. The henchmen have also become significantly better since launch, so while it was certainly not impossible back in the day without human monks, I think you are understating the difficulty most teams faced compared to today. The mission didn't change but the players did.
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Absolute Destiny
Question for the dedicated Heal/Prot monks on the thread:
Is it considered noobish/stupid for a non-monk player to bring at least one can-heal-other skill?
I have a N/Rt, an E/Rt, and a Mes/Rt who use Weapon of Warding with a little investment in Restoration as an "OMG the monk is dying!" emergency healing spell.
Also comes in handy in missions with stupid NPCs that have to be protected (read: almost all of Factions).
My W/Mo and D/Mo also packs Healing Breeze for this same reason.
I don't PuG, and rarely even play missions with my guildies unless I wipe multiple times with H/H.
Is it considered noobish/stupid for a non-monk player to bring at least one can-heal-other skill?
I have a N/Rt, an E/Rt, and a Mes/Rt who use Weapon of Warding with a little investment in Restoration as an "OMG the monk is dying!" emergency healing spell.
Also comes in handy in missions with stupid NPCs that have to be protected (read: almost all of Factions).
My W/Mo and D/Mo also packs Healing Breeze for this same reason.
I don't PuG, and rarely even play missions with my guildies unless I wipe multiple times with H/H.
bitchbar player
Bringing WoW is not bad and can be useful but most of the not needed. Healing breeze is always bad (apart from 55 monk).
Silmar Alech
It's not noobish, but it's not necessary either. Class-inherent self-heal support may be ok. For example something like Lion's Comfort for the Warrior or Signet of Lost Souls or Hexer's Vigor for the Necromancer. Often, it's a wasted slot for damage dealers, but ok.
But as soon as you sacrifice attribute points for that, which are then missing from your attack attributes and weaken your attacks/spells, it's bad in my opinion. As a monk, I rather have my team members fully go damage.
But as soon as you sacrifice attribute points for that, which are then missing from your attack attributes and weaken your attacks/spells, it's bad in my opinion. As a monk, I rather have my team members fully go damage.
Squire Heats
In some missions with pugs, its better to let a stupid player die as you can end up spending all your energy healing them and then as a result your more likely to die.
Hence after about 3-4 mins you would know who is worth healing...would throw some healing the stupid persons way but not to the point all energy is lost
Hence after about 3-4 mins you would know who is worth healing...would throw some healing the stupid persons way but not to the point all energy is lost
Nekodesu
I heal everything that over extend, because just cause I'm a monk, doesn't mean I need to be a bitch. And I feel a good monk wont act like a 14 years old who's pissed cause somebody doesn't do what I want them to. I don't feel a need to return the favour. I rarely ever meet warriors who over extend, TBH I see the fault often by the monks in MANY CASES. Monks are also supposed to pay attention to what's happening, and since warriors/assasins are melee they usually will run first into battle.
Alot of people who play monks think they are extremely good, almost holy because you play a healing class. I often see that alot of the monks who pug, in general have incredibly retarded builds, think that they are so needed they wont get kicked, and actually do a pretty bad job as a monk.
My boyfriend got called a suicide warrior because he 'overextended', this monks view of overextending was about a few meters away from him, This monk was complaining, about him because in most cases, the easiest way to blame your bad healing is just to blame it on somebody who dies. Like calling them a f****** noob.
My boyfriends main character, and in many ways his only character, is a monk. He's been playing it for 4 years, and he's done GvG for WM, and he's aswell GWAMM. He really knows all the badsides about being a monk in a pug or in PvP what so ever, but he still doesn't call anybody ANYTHING mean, or stop healing somebody cause he feels the need to be 12.
And neither do I.
Alot of people who play monks think they are extremely good, almost holy because you play a healing class. I often see that alot of the monks who pug, in general have incredibly retarded builds, think that they are so needed they wont get kicked, and actually do a pretty bad job as a monk.
My boyfriend got called a suicide warrior because he 'overextended', this monks view of overextending was about a few meters away from him, This monk was complaining, about him because in most cases, the easiest way to blame your bad healing is just to blame it on somebody who dies. Like calling them a f****** noob.
My boyfriends main character, and in many ways his only character, is a monk. He's been playing it for 4 years, and he's done GvG for WM, and he's aswell GWAMM. He really knows all the badsides about being a monk in a pug or in PvP what so ever, but he still doesn't call anybody ANYTHING mean, or stop healing somebody cause he feels the need to be 12.
And neither do I.
End
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Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath
This, try vanquishing zones with proph only skills, not impossible but much harder
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Wish Swiftdeath
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Originally Posted by End
There was also no Hard Mode back when it was only Prophecies.
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Age
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Originally Posted by dancing gnome
Thunderhead Keep was known as the noob filter for a reason. Back in the day there was no PvX wiki so it wasn't uncommon to find incredibly terribad party bars. Players were incredibly inefficient, many didn't have elite skills yet, 4 out of 8 people didn't have infused armour (it's not that different these days) and the skill pools were far smaller. Over time the mission has become SIGNIFICANTLY easy as many of the above factors have changed. Player have better bars, more skills to become more efficient, most players know what they are doing and the mission has never changed. Player bars were buffed but monster bars don't have the luxury of mixing around skills from all campaigns and taking advantage of the new flavour of the month builds. The henchmen have also become significantly better since launch, so while it was certainly not impossible back in the day without human monks, I think you are understating the difficulty most teams faced compared to today. The mission didn't change but the players did.
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^I wouldn't say that as Aegis isn't what it use to be and yes we used Orisons but there was already Glimmer of Light out by then.
afya
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Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath
This, try vanquishing zones with proph only skills, not impossible but much harder
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Undead Cheese
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Originally Posted by Nekodesu
I heal everything that over extend, because just cause I'm a monk, doesn't mean I need to be a bitch. And I feel a good monk wont act like a 14 years old who's pissed cause somebody doesn't do what I want them to. I don't feel a need to return the favour. I rarely ever meet warriors who over extend, TBH I see the fault often by the monks in MANY CASES. Monks are also supposed to pay attention to what's happening, and since warriors/assasins are melee they usually will run first into battle.
Alot of people who play monks think they are extremely good, almost holy because you play a healing class. I often see that alot of the monks who pug, in general have incredibly retarded builds, think that they are so needed they wont get kicked, and actually do a pretty bad job as a monk. My boyfriend got called a suicide warrior because he 'overextended', this monks view of overextending was about a few meters away from him, This monk was complaining, about him because in most cases, the easiest way to blame your bad healing is just to blame it on somebody who dies. Like calling them a f****** noob. My boyfriends main character, and in many ways his only character, is a monk. He's been playing it for 4 years, and he's done GvG for WM, and he's aswell GWAMM. He really knows all the badsides about being a monk in a pug or in PvP what so ever, but he still doesn't call anybody ANYTHING mean, or stop healing somebody cause he feels the need to be 12. And neither do I. |
Okay.
Nekodesu
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Originally Posted by Undead Cheese
So you will heal everything that over extends, puts the rest of your team at danger of being wiped, and wastes your energy because you don't want to be a ''bitch'' or a ''12 year old''?
Okay. |
There's usually 2-3 monks in a party, I monk with my boyfriend, and we do something called communication 8D Which means, if I run for the war I will say so, while he will watch the rest of the team. Usually warriors don't run into another mob when we're fighting one already, atleast I haven't experienced that. AND as for that, we're good monks, and we work well togheter. If a team experienced difficulties with killing a group of enemies I'd say the team is bad, not the warrior, or monks alone.
I don't know about you, but I don't really have alot of problems with keeping a party alive
snaek
monks should be able to bitch at a warrior for not drawing the initial aggro. however, the warrior should also be able to bitch at the monk for not pre-protting him before he does so.
i agree with nekodesu somewhat. a lot of monks (well people just in general) don't pay attention to the battlefield. they watch redbars and thats all they do. gw is a very positional game, and a monk (warrior or most other classes) who doesn't pay attention to position may likely be bad.
i agree with nekodesu somewhat. a lot of monks (well people just in general) don't pay attention to the battlefield. they watch redbars and thats all they do. gw is a very positional game, and a monk (warrior or most other classes) who doesn't pay attention to position may likely be bad.
Xiaquin
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Originally Posted by Nekodesu
/snip
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Nekodesu
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Originally Posted by Xiaquin
I'd be a lot less tense as a monk if I had the other healer in the room or over voice that I could relay with, so you do have an advantage. But you are right and I agree when you say you make the best effort to cover your party. For example, if there is a sin that jumps way out in front and Dashes, I would never just watch him die on aggro, I would try to run ahead and pre-prot, knowing he/she is probably gonna die. It's not difficult and sometimes you're just a sheep dog trying to corral everyone through a mission.
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I have that advantage, with voice, indeed. I admit that for people who don't voice when they monk togheter/with somebody they got a big disadvantage.
But yeah, I just REALLY needed to voice my opinion on how BAD alot of people are at monking in general... >_<
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Originally Posted by snaek
monks should be able to bitch at a warrior for not drawing the initial aggro. however, the warrior should also be able to bitch at the monk for not pre-protting him before he does so.
i agree with nekodesu somewhat. a lot of monks (well people just in general) don't pay attention to the battlefield. they watch redbars and thats all they do. gw is a very positional game, and a monk (warrior or most other classes) who doesn't pay attention to position may likely be bad. |
dark4190
When I pug-monk, I always bring the same exact bar. It's a "redbar" build, but I don't feel pugs deserve any better. It has no condition removal and no hex removal. If theres ever a second monk, I tell them to bring hex/cond removal because I can't be bothered with it.
I used to always try and bring this awesome build that could handle every situation. Then I started to notice that people didn't really care what hex or condition was on them, just as long as they lived. So I made a build that does just that- keeps them alive.
I've gotten loads of compliments on my "awesome monking" and I sometimes laugh because all I'd do is abuse Protective Spirit or Glyph of Lesser + Heal Party.
Anyways.. about my Inner Monk Demon..
Don't you all remember when UA was maintainable? Sort of like it still is in PvP? Imagine that and Vengence. It's an irratiable combo. Someones annoying you? Let them die. Then res them with UA. Then cancle it and cast Vengence on them.. then watch them run around with only 30 seconds to live. Then res them with UA to ensure no one else hard-res them.
This is most humorous when they have NO IDEA how they're dying. I'm the nice guy who says "Idk, but I'll res you"
I used to always try and bring this awesome build that could handle every situation. Then I started to notice that people didn't really care what hex or condition was on them, just as long as they lived. So I made a build that does just that- keeps them alive.
I've gotten loads of compliments on my "awesome monking" and I sometimes laugh because all I'd do is abuse Protective Spirit or Glyph of Lesser + Heal Party.
Anyways.. about my Inner Monk Demon..
Don't you all remember when UA was maintainable? Sort of like it still is in PvP? Imagine that and Vengence. It's an irratiable combo. Someones annoying you? Let them die. Then res them with UA. Then cancle it and cast Vengence on them.. then watch them run around with only 30 seconds to live. Then res them with UA to ensure no one else hard-res them.
This is most humorous when they have NO IDEA how they're dying. I'm the nice guy who says "Idk, but I'll res you"
Undead Cheese
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Originally Posted by Nekodesu
I will not heal EVERYTHING, but I will TRY TO HEAL a warrior if he overextends. If he dies, then alright, I perhaps wasn't paying attention or he was considered a bad player.
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Nekodesu
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Originally Posted by Undead Cheese
So when I get a stupid Warrior that for example uses ''Charge!'' and rushes ahead of everyone into a full group of Monsters, and dies within about three seconds, that's my fault for not chasing him or pre protting him?
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It has alot to do with the situation, if he's miles away from you running in and dying then obviously it is his fault, he should have paid attention to the fact that the monks are not with him. But yet again, it might a well be your fault. You're a monk for a reason, to keep people alive.
But hey, it's about the situation really.
Undead Cheese
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Originally Posted by Nekodesu
No, and neither have I said it would be your fault. If you're not paying attentiont and he rushes into a group, it CAN BE your fault if you're not paying attentiont, or for example that you're in general a bad monk. But you're obviously not getting the point.
It has alot to do with the situation, if he's miles away from you running in and dying then obviously it is his fault, he should have paid attention to the fact that the monks are not with him. But yet again, it might a well be your fault. You're a monk for a reason, to keep people alive. But hey, it's about the situation really. |
When I say ''runs ahead'' I mean out of range, no pre prot is going to save him, either, and no, I will not follow him if the group hasn't even finished the current batch of Monsters.
A Monk has every right to complain at a stupid team member, just as anyone else is, I have no trouble keeping PuG's alive, however if somebody is making my job harder than it needs to be because they lack basic common sense, damn right I'll complain, and that's not because I'm a bitch, or because I'm acting like a 14 year old.
Iuris
I never really understood why people would take a human monk (or why a human monk would want to monk). The AI healers do an adequate job (YES, even the much maligned Alesia that I've never had a problem with). As a monk player you have to be on your guard all the time, have twitch reflexes to administer healing where needed and so on... Very tiring, too.
AexIndex
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Originally Posted by Iuris
I never really understood why people would take a human monk (or why a human monk would want to monk). The AI healers do an adequate job (YES, even the much maligned Alesia that I've never had a problem with). As a monk player you have to be on your guard all the time, have twitch reflexes to administer healing where needed and so on... Very tiring, too.
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You pretty much hit it right on the spot though! Monking in PvE is just the biggest joke there is.
Tommy's
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Originally Posted by AexIndex
Monking in PvE is just the biggest joke there is.
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Iuris
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| You only need twitch for infuse or (PvP) aegis. |
Nekodesu
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Originally Posted by Undead Cheese
Yes, I am a Monk, not a slave or a pet. If someone wants to go ahead and run into a group of Monsters without waiting for anybody else, that is his fault, not mine.
When I say ''runs ahead'' I mean out of range, no pre prot is going to save him, either, and no, I will not follow him if the group hasn't even finished the current batch of Monsters. A Monk has every right to complain at a stupid team member, just as anyone else is, I have no trouble keeping PuG's alive, however if somebody is making my job harder than it needs to be because they lack basic common sense, damn right I'll complain, and that's not because I'm a bitch, or because I'm acting like a 14 year old. |
Neither am I saying I agree with warriors who think it's a good thing to run out like that. if you experience that as a big problem all I can say is for you to stop pugging, and get yourself a guild to do whatever you're pugging for.
If you're a good monk, and try to give a honest effort into what you're doing, then don't feel so close on this because it doesn't include you. Perhaps the whining part, but that includes everybody who just keeps whining :x Wheter it's a warrior who think you suck or yourself. You can always complain or, state your opinion about somebody, but to whine during a whole mission, I think is kinda stupid, I'd just leave instead, that wasting my time whining about somebody.
Xiaquin
Wow, who would take heroes or (gasp) henchmen monks over humans if given the choice? Ok, in NM you can afford to be on cruise control, but HM? I'd rather be the monk than let AI stupidly wipe the party because it can't kite, pre-prot or manage energy.
And last note about "rogue" party members, while I don't feel like it's the monks fault for them, you can be polite and make your best effort instead of raging or denying them help. If you just let people die, it makes them weaker, so they'll die again, just faster.
And last note about "rogue" party members, while I don't feel like it's the monks fault for them, you can be polite and make your best effort instead of raging or denying them help. If you just let people die, it makes them weaker, so they'll die again, just faster.
HigherMinion
You can still micro heroes. Problem is if you fail, some people will blame your hero monk. Others will blame the one who didn't micro PS on it.
I get alot of overextenders when I run ER prot, because everyone thinks "dw its k, i has prot bond, imba c?"
Sadly it's far from imba when I have no one I can spam Infuse on, and my energy occasionally will drain due to the frontline not thinking.
I pin blame on most people other than the monks/eles/rits whatever's healing. Because when your party wipes, it's generally due to bad pulling/aggro management.
I get alot of overextenders when I run ER prot, because everyone thinks "dw its k, i has prot bond, imba c?"
Sadly it's far from imba when I have no one I can spam Infuse on, and my energy occasionally will drain due to the frontline not thinking.
I pin blame on most people other than the monks/eles/rits whatever's healing. Because when your party wipes, it's generally due to bad pulling/aggro management.
Age
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Originally Posted by Iuris
I never really understood why people would take a human monk (or why a human monk would want to monk). The AI healers do an adequate job (YES, even the much maligned Alesia that I've never had a problem with). As a monk player you have to be on your guard all the time, have twitch reflexes to administer healing where needed and so on... Very tiring, too.
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@ AexIndex Monking in PVE isn't the biggest joke there is.I can say more but it might appear insulting that can't handle it.
Iuris
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| You might want to try playing the class before you judge it as we can do way more than any NPC Monk can. |
Of course a player can usually do more than an AI. However, I've vanquished all of tyria with 1 hero and 1 henchman healer combinations, and it never hurt. And even without heroes, I've henched my way through Factions and Prophecies - and Alesia and Lina were always enough to get the job done.
Nekodesu
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Originally Posted by Iuris
What on earth makes you think I don't have one? Hell, my monk is the only one I do any pseudo-PvP with (FA and JQ, mostly).
Of course a player can usually do more than an AI. However, I've vanquished all of tyria with 1 hero and 1 henchman healer combinations, and it never hurt. And even without heroes, I've henched my way through Factions and Prophecies - and Alesia and Lina were always enough to get the job done. |
I like to do me as an UA and a hero monk as AoF prot. That works really well, because heroes are tbh pretty good at using AoF.
byteme!
When I monk, I only complain when our Warrior isn't aggressive enough. I can keep up with my group 95% of the time with no down time for regen. (regen is for the weak) I don't like having my Warrior sit back while someone else pulls. My ideal Warrior would run well ahead of the rest of the team after we've polished off our last encounter to take initial aggro while keeping an eye on the rest of the team's position to ensure when aggro has settled on him the rest of the team is ready to engage. The idea is to keep the pace and flow up and never stop for regen. If you need time to rest you probably don't belong on my team. There are exceptions though, such as edenial but weapon swapping solves that problem easily. Anyways this is the way "I" like to monk. After playing this game since day 1 I don't see any reason to take a different approach.
khezial tahr
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Originally Posted by byteme!
My ideal Warrior would run well ahead of the rest of the team after we've polished off our last encounter to take initial aggro while keeping an eye on the rest of the team's position to ensure when aggro has settled on him the rest of the team is ready to engage. The idea is to keep the pace and flow up and never stop for regen. If you need time to rest you probably don't belong on my team. There are exceptions though, such as edenial but weapon swapping solves that problem easily. Anyways this is the way "I" like to monk. After playing this game since day 1 I don't see any reason to take a different approach.
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But you have to communicate.
As for preprotting and warriors rushing in- If a monk is not paying attention and does not preprot the warrior before they rush in, why is it totally the monks fault? The warrior should also be paying attention that he was not protted and ask for it. this works both ways. I've been in several dungeons where the warrior TOLD me she was ready to be protted. Sure being on a voice chat is very helpful, but you can drop that in chat too.
ilr
I've never Monked for Pugs. I'm not even curious.. ...I just roll Smites/Beast and kill everything myself.
Therefore I guess my inner monk demon is intolerant and selfish. ...and that's good. Pugs are the reason Anet made heroes.
But for my guild, I'm a pretty awesome healer who enjoys infusing & never lets bias get in the way
Therefore I guess my inner monk demon is intolerant and selfish. ...and that's good. Pugs are the reason Anet made heroes.
But for my guild, I'm a pretty awesome healer who enjoys infusing & never lets bias get in the way