Are you ever going to kill Spirit Spam ?

I do run SoS occasionally on my Ranger when I h/h and I don't think its particularly overpowered but i would say it could do with a few changes

1) Reduce the DPS
A slight nerf to tone down the damage a little, possibly along the lines of Laniers suggestions of 2 beefier spirits doing almost as much damage as the current 3. Couple that with a change to Spirit Siphons energy gain/recharge time would help since at the moment its a virtual energy machine with no real need for thought.

2) Change it to be much less useful for /Rt secondaries.
I really enjoy running builds round my secondary prof in general but with SOS its getting retard silly how many PuGs i join only to find a warrior/sins/dervs et all arguing about who gets to play the SoS. Jesus get a frigging rit in to the party and the rest of you hit shit with big lumps of metal.

agree with dmg, but spirit siphon being nerfed cuz of SoS or the spirit spam build, no thx
there are more builds which may be useful for spirit siphon

being much less useful for 2ndary rit, yes, this can replace the spirit siphon nerf

what about spirit siphon being spawning power skill?
just reduce energy gain at spawning power 0-3, so that you at least need 4 for a pretty nice result

SoS stays at channeling, nerf dmg alot and make spawning power increase spirit dmg, or nerf the SoS dmg some, give it normal non-armor ignore dmg and let spawning power give spirits more armor penetration and/or dmg

i think the 2nd part is too much of work, so spawning power giving more dmg to spirits would do the trick

like spawning power doubles spirit dmg, make the rit spirits (except for vampirism and bloodsong and other spirits not dealing dmg like agony and such) weak compared to now, so that with 12 spawning power, the spirits would be as strong as they would be now, like SoS would be at 12 channeling, but now with channeling at 12 and spawning power around 12

and 12 channeling and no spawning power would like give half the dmg, or less compared to both attributes on 12

this would make secondary spirit spammers being weak, adn primary spirit spammers would stay happy with their rit

its a nerf for non-primaries, but rits stay normal
i play rit best of all profs, and not even spirit spammer, as i use "you move like a dwarf!", summon ruby djinn and ebon vanguard assassin support, and of course SoS, which is my only spirit skill, unless someone wants to be spirit spammer, or uses spiritway heroes, then i change into consume soul (nice to kill other spirits, and minions )

then if SoS is too strong even with that idea, let dmg be reduced by 1...4...6
just dont screw it up.... thats all i ask for

let the primary rits stay, as they deserve spirits more than anyone else, even rangers, who have useless spirits (if not doing anything special) IMO

ps. read it well, its NOT a nerf for rits, but a change to avoid any other prof being a rit, like spirit spammer

also, i hope i made myself clear, as my english isnt that good
this is all what i have in mind atm

another thing: i think this is why GW2 has no secondaries, just cuz you cant overpower others with anything, and everything will be equal there

hope you like it

And why should vampirism be left out simply because it is a PvE skill?

If you nerf rits, then some other class, like necros for example would take over to make PvE easy. You are not solving anything and only making matters worse. You are barking up the wrong tree.

Sure, spirit spamming is powerful, but spirit spamming:
1. Can be done by any other caster classes besides rits.
2. Is pretty much what rits do, nerfing spirit spamming would bring them back to the old days where most people wouldnt want to play a rit in the first place.
3. PUGs typically have only 1 SoS spirit spamming rit in a party. If they integrate another spirit spamming rit, they would have to make sure they have no common spirits. Also I have seen R/Rt get into the group as spirit spammers when no rits are around.

Since most PUGs only have 1 spirit spammer, the problem is not as bad as what many of you are trying to make it out to be.

If your complaint is that spirit spamming dumbs down the game, then why are cons still around? This is why this thread has no merit. You try to remove the dirt from your little toe while the entire body is soaked with mud. I PROMISE you that the game would still be as dumbed down even with a rit nerf so your suggestion solves NOTHING.

I can't speak for the others, but I don't want rits to be nerfed per say. I want other options to be equally viable as spirit spamming. For example, there are a ton of strait up channeling damage spells that could get some use now with the armor penetration from DwG or CwD. However, outside of gimmicks that utilize DwG en masse, when do you ever see a DwG or a Clamor of Souls or a Caretaker's charge used for a dps rit build? Spirit spam simply outdamages these other options by such a wide margin. What I want is to close this margin somewhat, and since SoS and spirit siphon and to a lesser extent, summon spirits, are the quintessential/most powerful spells in a spirit spam bar, giving slight nerfs (not functionality changes or large nerfs, just slight nerfs), would go some of the way toward evening out the power of the different dps options available to rits. Im not just talking about making strait damage builds more viable either. Nerfing SoS would make SoGM and ritlord more desireable in addition to support builds like the old OoS/splinters/a-rage/smite spell builds. I mean how often do you see OoS being used anymore? Its pretty sad when a non-elite energy management spell is so good that it can give more energy than an already good elite energy management spell.

The common misconception that SoS must be a channeling/communing hybrid pains me so. Taking two Rits if not three is always better imo....one a SoS that spec 12 channeling 12 spawning...with splinter weap/ancestors and then another character with the communing spirits. Even a third running ST defensive spirits aids immensely.

Every profession in the game has a long list of useless elites. SoGM is not one of them. The ritualist remains one of the most versitile classes in the game. I'm sorry to say, but I am not seeing the point of arguing Spirit Siphon. What OP thing is it fueling that it needs changing? Your typical SoS build doesn't need the energy, nor does DwG.

SoS is just fine, it's usable by humans and heros alike and makes spirits a usable part of the game again.
Unlike ursan and SF, SoS does not allow a bunch of complete noobs to go hogwild in the UW or DoA without thought or effort.
Because of the way the later professions were implemented, the GW staff obviously realized that with a smaller pool of skills, elite armor choices, and green weaspons; that no one would want to play non-core professions unless they found ways to make them fun to play.
Paragons b4 imbas, sins b4 SF, rits b4 SoS and DwG; all of them stunk to high heaven. Paragons were nerfed into also rans, rits weren't really good at anything specifically, and sins were plain not welcome in PvE (shadowstep in, die, yell at monk, rez, repeat)
Now the GW crew are about to unleash Dervish God Mode upon us. I should really beat NF with mine LOL.

If I remember there was one big nerf to Rit’s before they got buffed again. It was the whole let’s stick exhaustion next to certain Ritualist skills. It only lasted a week I think, and even Mr. Cartwright apologized for going to that extreme. Honestly I would rather not go back to that insanity.

Oh please he actualy thinks SF got nerfed? not even close. A real SF nerf would destroy sins completely tho.

I feel that's a separate issue and tried to avoid dragging them into the argument.

"Nerf" is too strong a word, meaning to render useless. I did not say I wanted to make spirit spamming unusable.

That's a poor metric for balance. I compared spirits to minions in every way; it was ignored.

I don't think you understand, and I am not continuing this.

If the issue is PvE is dumbed down, then nothing dumbs it down more than cons and PvE skills so why should they be a seperate argument.

You are comparing apples and oranges. When comparing the energy cost of a fiend versus spirits, you failed to account for the overpowered soul reaping attribute that necros get to enjoy but rits dont.

Also note that spirit spamming can be used effectively by most other classes besides rits, while a fiend MM can only be used effectively by a necro due to its energy cost. In terms of balance, necro skills are more unbalanced favoring a particular class than rit skills are.

I dont think what you want to discuss belongs in this thread or even this forum. It belongs to the rit forum and this thread is talking about nerfing spirit spamming, not how to improve rits.

Uh, I think you are kinda proving my point. SoS is such a versatile elite that it can go well in almost any type of build. Personally, I like focused builds so my SoS build is a spirit spammer, but I completely agree that A pure channeling or a Channeling/resto build with SoS and some support skills is also very good. It is sad when a skill is so good that it is better to use it in most situations for support over pure support skills like weapon of remedy/quickening/fury.

Just b/c every profession has useless elites doesn't mean we shouldnt make more elites useful... I dont understand where you are coming from with this arguement. Anyway, the reason why I think spirit siphon should have a slight nerf (and by a slight nerf i mean +5 seconds recharge time) is because its energy management potential is too high. It is way too easy to have indefinite energy with spirit siphon in your build, and it should never be easy to have indefinite energy.

huh? I said nothing about improving rits. I just said that one reason SoS should get nerfed is so that it doesn't completely outclass every single other playstyle available to rits.

I want to ask all with this question. In a general PvE setting, when another rit is not already running a spirit spam build, would you all choose any other elite over SoS for the optimal rit build? Does any other elite come close to the power of SoS? I mean what rit elite is typically considered the 2nd most "powerful"? Im pretty sure DwG occupies this position. The fact of the matter is that Spirit Spamming is just so much "better" than any other option available to rits. Once again, Im not saying Spirit Spamming should be killed. What I am saying is that it shouldn't completely outclass every other play style available to rits.

Honestly, at this point in time, I would prefer rits as they used to be. Back then (and im talking about back in the day when OoS support builds were usually recommended as the "best" options available), rits were probably one of the weakest professions in PvE. This is true. However, back then, there were many different playstyles I could choose from with relatively the same amount of "power" available to each playstyle. I could be a spirit spammer, a support rit, a healer, a strait damage channeler, a rit minion bomber, or a spirit strength rit, and although none of the options were very powerful in PvE, all the playstyles were relatively equal in terms of "power". That is certainly not the case nowadays. Spirit spam is just flat out more powerful than all the other options available to rits, and the margin is a pretty wide one.

No one is stopping you.

Huh?....that was not my arguement. That double negative throws me off what you are trying to say. Please clarify.

The potential might be there, but there is basically nothing that a rit uses that needs mass energy...so it only becomes wasted potential.

Like noted b4... a SoGM communing rit, ST defensive spirit rit, explosive growth MM rit, or a Resto rit. DwG rits don't mesh well with random teams.

Spawning Spirits is what Rits do...it says it in their character bio. Take a look here. Nerfing spirit spamming....is nerfing rits.

Sorry. Basically, I was saying that the fact that there are already several useless elites is irrelevant to this conversation.

Well technically there are. There is a 25 energy spirit and several 15 energy ones as well. There are also several highly spammable channeling spells that due to their high spammability, need a form of energy management. Spirit Siphon pretty much takes away any worries of energy management that a spirit spammer could possibly have by giving it a rediculous energy gain.

And I like all of these options as well. However, the only ones that can really be compared to SoS spirit spammers are the offensive ones, and SoS spirit spammers can pump out a ton more damage than SoGM communing rits, explosive growth MMs, DwGs, Caretakers Charge/Clamour of Soul rits. SoS spirit spammers have a far higher dps than any of the other dps options rits have, and all I am asking is for the dps of SoS rits to be closer to that of the other offensive options that rits have.

Yes, I am very well aware of what rits do. Rits also have a lot of other "things" they can do besides spirit spamming. Is it asking too much to bring the dps of SoS spirit spam more in line with the other options rits have? Making more builds/playstyles equally viable = more variation in builds people play and more of a chance for people to have fun without feeling like they are gimping their team.

Uh... alrighty then. You are correct - no one is stopping me. What does this have anything to do with what I was trying to argue?

I quoted that part, look above what I typed.
Beyond that, I don't think you know what you're arguing and that makes it very difficult for me to know what you're arguing.
Are you upset because most pugs won't let you play rit unless you're a spammer? Most pugs won't let you come as a ranger unless you're a splinter/barrage. If it's the one-dimensionality of most pugs that you dislike, then that has nothing to do with SoS.
Are you upset about the non-elite e-management? Necros have SR, Rangers have expertise, Sins have crit strikes, Dervs have mysticism and Paragons have leadership; none of those even require a skill for e-management. Eles have E-storage for increased energy and attunements and GolE for non-elite energy management.
Are you upset about DPS? If so, I'm not sure why. Take a DwG to Great Temple and compare DPS. SoGM doesn't exactly provide poor DPS.
Are you upset that many people don't use rits for things other than SoS? Most people like things that they are familiar with and that they know works, but that doesn't mean the other options aren't strong. When jumping in with pugs, people will tend to run a build that they won't have to spend 10 minutes explaining/defending.
If there's an argument I missed, please let me know.

Those spirits aren't really a part of a SoS build. They are however part of SoGM and ST defensive builds...neither of which need/use spirit siphon. For the most part (BLA excluded ofc) a SoS has plenty of energy to cast it's spammable channeling spells during a fight. There is no need to be able spam a spell 10 times during a fight if the mob dies after 3 casts. (ofc this includes other party members efforts) So in turn the "rediculous" energy gain from spirit siphon is not really doing much.

You had asked if there was already a Rit in a group running SoS, what would we run. So comparing the options is flawed as a SoGM rit will also gain the synergy from painful bond, making it's dps quite impressive. Aside from dps, ST defensive rits are very very useful. Any monk that has enjoyed having one of these in their group can attest to it.



Might I suggest thinking outside of the dps box? I am also a bit confused as to what you want. I think Tha Walkin Dude makes light of some of my queries as well.

There are some advantages of SoS/Spirit Spam:

Allows terrible players to provide a vital role in a team

Allows good players to be lazy

Easy nick items

When forming a pug/guild group, someone else will want to go SoS, so you know you should bring another build

Any/Rt = Bison Tourny win

i have something for you, some important info:

everytime they nerf and make a build less useful, people come up with another build
which could make it worse, if its not spirits, it may be something better which 3 people can use, because it wont have limits like 1 spirit at a time

and imagine something as good as 3 spirit spammers without spirit limit, but then its no spirits, just a build which is as good

that'll be overpowered thx to the nerfs to spirit spam

many people got sick of the huge amount of nerfs we had some time ago
will they let people leave the game again, or will they let people enjoy the game this time?

in other words: will they nerf rit, or not?

i hope you get my point

face it, people like to use builds which are strong and on pvx
nerf this and they copy other good builds

it's an endless cycle (wow i get a deja vu)

most people dont wanna make builds, but copy effective ones, so they copy the ones which are the best, in other words:

they use builds which outclass others after every nerf

let them enjoy the limited spirit builds (as all spirits can be made once at a time)

nerf means: decrease effectiveness of a skill
NOT: destroy the effectiveness of a skill

so should they decrease the effectiveness of spirit spams, its called a nerf

*decrease effectiveness = make a skill less effective, NOT destroying the purpose of a skill*

even though i dont use spirit spam much myself, i hate to see spirits becoming less useful, as offensive rit spirits are good as they are now, unlike the defensive rit spirits, which i like to use also

well as been said, shadow form is still around, it hasn't been killed, although the last attempt at a nerf killed other professions farm builds while leaving shadow form useable. Anet was too stupid to do the right thing with that fix. Yeah SoS gives the Rit's a playable build for party play but its not as OP as it could of been seeing only one copy of a spirit can be up at a time. as for the game being deader then ever, hell its been like this for over a year now, you sure you've only been gone for the summer? how full did you expect mission outpost to be for a game 5 1/2 years old now? if you think SoS is keeping you from playing in a group maybe you haven't been gone long enough.

I disagree that all the playstyle were relatively equal in terms of power. In the absence of SoS and spirit buffs, an AP bar probably makes the most sense for dps. Also not all classes were balanced back then either. The mere fact that some classes were obviously more popular than others shows the inbalance between the classes.

Personally I have been playing my rit ever since Factions started and I have 2 mesmers that were made back in 2005 and they have all completed all the campaigns long before the rit or mesmer buffs. Even though I don't need the buffs, I could still tell that my mesmers and rit were weaker than my necro in terms of killing power, before their respective buffs.

The advantage I have of playing through all classes through all campaigns for many years, is that I can tell which classes are more OP than others. One thing is for sure, they were definitely not better balanced back then.

Since I am always arguing that primary class should always be far better than secondary they could make changes in that area.
Drop the spirits damage duration health etc and then link it to the Ritualists primary track.

That could dramatically reduce the number of spirit spam builds out there to Ritualist primaries.
All the Necro Mesmer Ele Monk etc spirit spam builds would still operate but at a much reduced effect.

If a real nerf was to be done just put all the really good spirits on the Rit primary skill track.
Would certainly mess me up as I often run the build on all my caster types usually to easily solo an area.

Not advocating this, I am happy as is but if they did nerf the spirit spam I would prefer them to do it in this way.

I do think that true balance is more or less impossible for all situations. Clearly some professions are going to be better suited at some tasks than others (like solo farming Nick items). The beauty of this game is that you CAN play lots of different professions. Unfortunately with title grinding, a lot of people just lock onto one characters and never really explore the experience of playing all the professions.

That being said it does bother me that ALL the professions can roll out a wall of spirits and be effective in PvE. This is a flaw IMO. It's true, you do see warriors and dervishes arguing in PuG's about who gets to be the SoS. That's just wrong.

Just off the top of my head, a couple nerfs that seem reasonable:

- Remove the spawning health bonus for spirits. Spirits should not act as tanks. They should be fragile and their placement out of battle should be a key tactic to playing a ritualist.

- Link spawning to either the damage of the spirits or the number of spirits that you can place at a time.

- Nerf Siphon Spirit to a point where it is not acting as an infinite energy source.

Spirit siphon provides a net gain of 5e on the first use. Assuming that you are spamming it for 'infinite energy', there's a decent chance that same spirit is closest to you the second time you use it, which will cause a net loss in energy.
I'm not really sure why spirit siphon entered the discussion at all, b/c unless they're spamming splinter weapon, a spirit spammer doesn't really need any e-management.

My bad, we were using different definitions of balance. That must be where the confusion came from. When I said balance, I meant the rit skills were well balanced with other rit skills. Rits had a larger variety of viable builds open to them since several of their skills were closer to having the same "power" than they do now. I didn't mean to say that rits were balanced as a profession overall. In fact, when comparing rits to other professions, I would say the rit profession is more balanced now than it was back then. Back then, the rit profession in general may have been underpowered but several of there skills were equally underpowered thus creating balance between several of the rit's skills and builds.

Also, if I remember right, this was before AP caught on as a really popular skill among casters.

Sorry man... but, uh, I dont...

I mean I understand that new builds will always become "meta" after current builds are nerfed... but thats kind of beside the point. Besides, even if anet took into consideration my suggestions, SoS spirit spam would still be one of or probably the most powerful build available to rits. I guess it shows how OP a build is when you suggest nerfs to it, and even with those nerfs, the build is still the "best" option available to a profession.

Really? In my experience spirit siphon typically gives a return of ~7-8 energy per use. Since it can be used every three seconds, and since a spirit regains all his energy after roughly 13-15 seconds, having five spirits in a build (which is standard for spirit spam builds that I have seen) means ~7-8 energy every three seconds or so. I think that's about as close as you are going to come to having unlimited energy in this game. While it is true that a pure spirit spammer doesn't need the e-management (which is a problem in itself - it shouldnt be so easy to manage energy that you don't need active energy management skills), a spirit spammer with 3-5 spirits could easily have enough energy to fuel an expensive support skill. Iv used it with prot spirit before, and cycling spirit siphons between my 4 spirits at the time made it very easy to spam the support enchantment often.

EDIT: I don't know where you got 5 energy return from... I just now went to the isle of the nameless to test spirit siphon and I was getting a net return of 11 energy (it gave me back 16 total) at 16 channeling. I would imagine therefore that it would give 8-9 energy return at the least at 13-14 channeling.

And therefore nerfing spirit spamming without buffing the other rit skills would make rits overly weak again, compared to the other classes.

Seriously, if you are targeting each and everyone of your spirits, making sure to siphon enough energy then there is something wrong with your build.

First of all like many have already said, you dont need much energy to play a spirit spammer because spirits do last awhile and even if they don't, their long recharge would. Second, it is a big hassle to pin point the correct spirit to spihon off during combat because you have better things to worry about. The 3 spirits from SoS tend to be close enough together to make this a hassle. Third, you tend to move your spirits from AoE through summon spirits which makes it even harder to pin point individual spirits and remember which spirit you should siphon off next. Furthermore, heroes suck at using spirit siphon, since they tend to siphon off the same spirit repeatedly.

Some spirit spamming bars dont even have spirit siphon on them, so I dont see how all this attention at spirit siphon is even worth it.

You are correct, I did mess up on the net energy return.
Beyond that, we've been talking about the standard spirit spammer all along. Your use of spirits to fuel prot spirit is a good idea, but it's not exactly standard, which is what has been at issue. The verbal gymnastics are getting a bit tired at this point. Do you truly believe that SoS is so overpowered and game-breaking that it needs to be nerfed?

Might I add the same question about spirit siphon to the above.

Toning Spirit Spamming down - by reducing DPS and overall abusability of certain skills - would balance it, instead of making Ritualists either overpowered or too weak as the wind changes.

Lanier never suggested a radical nerf. His suggestions would not kill Spirit Spamming, they'd just make it less ridicolously overpowered.

Sorry, but I fail to see how my suggestions would make rits overly weak again.

The point about heroes is kind of irrelevant since that is not what is being discussed. It is common knowledge that heroes can't use Spirit Siphon well.

The fact that spirits in general are not energy intensive still doesn't change the fact that spirit siphon can give the user godly amounts of energy when used in a build with 3-5 spirits. OoS, what used to be a staple in many rit's bars, is now completely inferior to Spirit Siphon when SoS is in the build. Since SoS gives an insane amount of dps and is used in pretty much every offensive rit build nowadays... I mean it just doesn't make since to me at all. I guess now we can clearly see the results of powercreep when, in most situations, it is more effective from a purely energy management standpoint to run a non-elite skill than it is to run an elite energy mangament skill on an offensive rit.

Besides, if you look at my suggestion, spirit siphon would still be able to give back copius returns of energy. With just two spirits in a build, you could still get 8-10 free energy every 8 seconds with the typical channeling spec. For a skill that has such an easy condition to meet, I almost think that even that is too much (its better than power drain IF power drain is used on recharge... which it can't be due to its condition), but im not going to push nerfing it any further...

While agree with parts of this, there really are very few options that have the damage output of a spirit spammer. I guess you could say discord does in mass, but then again, I would think that if you replaced one discord user in a group with a spirit spammer, the overall dps of your team would increase. I am curious what the rest of you think does more damage on a single person than a spirit spammer.

BTW, from wiki:

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_Siphon

At 16 Channeling, each cast nets 11 energy. This skill has a 1/4 second cast time (negligible) and a 3 second recharge. Spirits regenerate their lost energy every 23 seconds or obviously if you recast them. Really, this more or less exceeds soul reaping if you are good with not re-siphoning the same spirits prematurely.

I think you need to clarify whether you mean Spirit Spamming in general or just SoS. This thread gives nice insight into DPS of the SoS and SoGM builds.

I hate to repeat myself about the "issue" of spirit siphon.....but ya'll keep pounding away that it is ungodly energy. This isn't really an issue as doesn't mesh with any high cost skills. Yes there are high cost rit spirits like shelter, dissonance, and recuperation but they are not spammable w/o ST, RE or Rit Lord ad they do not mesh with a SoS build. Meaning there is no need for this ungodly energy that spirit siphon allows, making it a non issue.

Just to make sure. So, we're at the point where we don't know what about the rit is game-breaking, but we're pretty sure it involves some sort of spirit, and [snickers] spirit siphon?

Im referring to SoS and, to a lesser extent, spirit siphon. I think I have made it clear that, although I think SoS is a very powerful dps option for rits, the changes that I would like are not ones that would effect the dps of a spirit spam build directly. What I don't like about SoS is that it can both pump out a ton of damage AND create three bodies (pretty resilient ones with investment in Spawning) AND provide unlimited energy with spirit siphon. While I would be fine with an elite being able to do one of these or all of them to a lesser extent, I don't think any skill should be so powerful as to be able to accomplish all of these to the level that SoS can. That is why my suggested change to SoS, while keeping the direct dps of the skill relatively intact (maybe a little bit lower dps but not much), would remove one of the bodies and one of the spirit siphon/boon of creation sources.

That is why I don't have a problem with SoGM. While I acknowledge (and I wish most the the community would acknowledge this as well) that SoGM is just as powerful as SoS, SoGM doesn't have the extra utility that I mentioned above.

Of course in a perfect world, the other offensive spirit spamming elites (wanderlust and ritlord) would need to be on the level of SoGM and SoS as well but I guess thats another topic for another thread. Right now, I just want the overall power of SoS to equal that of SoGM.

EDIT:
Who said anything about SoS spirit spam builds being game breaking?

You didn't take a look at that thread did you?

^^That and don't forget that in addition to providing spirit walls SoGM also provides anti-melee (blind), passive enchant removal and possibly interrupts if you use dissonance.

Yes, SoS is OP
Yes, many ppl run SoS
but more ppl running SF
SoS doesn't break econ(one in party, slow solo farm, etc)
SF does
rather than messing with such minor thing, nerf SF first
or wait till theres a SOSway.

I dont know why you are so hung up on energy, but since you have chosen to be regardless of what we said then sure, we can argue whether rits have the most OP energy gain of all classes or not.

Compare spirit siphon with a necro's soul reaping on a Ether Renewal Ele then.

1. Soul Reaping does not need a skill slot while spirit siphon does
2. Soul Reaping energy gain is automatic, you dont need to target a suitable spirit and cast a spell on it.
3. Soul Reaping needs something to die, I'll give you that. But things die fast enough in PvE for soul reaping to be more OP than spirit siphon.

Ether Renewal is even more OP in terms of energy gain since you gain net energy and hp as you use your spells.

wat they are doing with gw2 is gonna remove any team play, tactic or competitivity in GW... and its gonna make it pve-based, it really looks ridiculously bad, the gameplay has become like WoW

I have looked at that thread on multiple occasions since it was thread necromancied. It clearly states that in terms of DPS, both of them are pretty equal with SoGM having a slightly higher potential. Im pretty sure I mentioned in my previous post that in terms of DPS, they are roughly equal, didnt I? I also mentioned that my suggestion wouldn't have much of an impact on SoS's DPS. You didn't read my post, did you?

And you can use all of these spirits in an SoS build as well... I dont really see what point you are making here.

Uh, what? You are saying that Spirit Siphon isn't OP by comparing it to probably the two most OP e-management options in the game?

I don't understand what you are getting at. No profession should have unlimited energy, especially with the use of a non-elite spell. There are just too may ways that that can be abused. Saying that Rits can have spirit siphon b/c necros have soul reaping isn't really proving anything. Granted, I don't know much about soul reaping since I don't have a necro, but if it has the potential to give you a net gain of 8-11ish energy every 3 seconds, then it probably deserves to be nerfed as well. Once gain, I can't really speak on soul reaping since I don't use necros.

Oh, and don't forget that ER is elite.

Also don't forget that I am only asking for +5 seconds extra on recharge. I don't understand why that is such a big deal.

Did you all even read my suggestions, or are you just intent on arguing with my point of view regarding SoS being OP? They are very light nerfs and the standard SoS spirit spam build would still be very much intact and very powerful even if all of them were instituted. Can you explain why you think the suggested change to SoS or the +5 seconds to Spirit Siphon's recharge is such a big deal to you?

Why should the effect of a skill on the economy or on farming/speed clears effect skill changes for it?

EDIT: You know what? Just forget everything I just said. Im tired of this pointless arguing. You arn't going to change my mind that SoS is OP and needs a slight nerf and at this point, Im sure that I'll not be able to change you guy's minds either. I honestly don't understand what is so wrong with my suggestion but obviously you guys don't think that a slight nerf to SoS is good, and I am know perfectly well that people don't just change their minds. Anyway, im sick of this arguing so yea...

I have actually read every one of you posts.

It is very evident that you want all rit skills to be on par with other rit skills (ofc split leet/non leet)

Apparently you are not fond of rits having a place up next to other strong classes.
Evidently you have wanted SoGM to be on par with SoS in terms of DpS until this last post, where you realized it already is.


Here's the deal with spirit siphon...plz consider it....Although it may be OP in the energy it gives to a SoS rit, the SoS rit doesn't need the energy. So spirit siphon being OP doesn't effectively do anything with much utility. If it meshed well with strong spells which required that much energy, I would agree with you, but since it doesn't there is no point bothering with it. I have to disagree that there are too many ways in which it can be abused due to it's lack of synergy.



IMO its all about....there's simply not enough justification there to change these skills. Changing them solely to change them doesn't make sense.