comparing comparing co...etc
let all skills give just as much energy, sure, that'll even them out, but what they dont think about is, necro's dont have much energy management skills, and so dont rits
nerf SR again and necro becomes even more useless, as i cant seem to keep energy when using blood necro, as SR has ben based on MM
nerf spirit siphon and rit's energy dies, as 2ndary ele wont work with spirits, glyph of lesser energy requires spells, mesmer energy tap better have fast casting in case of interrupt and energy drain will take away the elite place
rangers have expertise, which rits cant use, warriors have adrenaline, paragons have leadership... etc
if a rit has to be good, it should stay as it is, nerfing spirits makes rit way less popular, and nerfing spirit siphon kills the purpose of spirit caller (as a rit does that, thats why its made)
i hope anet ignores this topic and wont change it, or else my only good prof dies, too -_-
Are you ever going to kill Spirit Spam ?
Ayuhmii Shanbwa
Lanier
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa
i hope anet ignores this topic and wont change it, or else my only good prof dies, too -_-
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Anyway, like I said, iv kind of given up on arguing here. I just wanted to point out... once again... that my suggested changes would not result in the end of the world.
SpiritThief
I only like this build because its the cheapest one I could make for my ranger get some quick and easy farming done.
I miss my mist form
I miss my mist form
Ka Tet
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Originally Posted by Lanier
Lol, im pretty sure that if Anet implemented my suggestions, rits would not die...
Anyway, like I said, iv kind of given up on arguing here. I just wanted to point out... once again... that my suggested changes would not result in the end of the world. |
NerfHerder
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gremlin
Since I am always arguing that primary class should always be far better than secondary they could make changes in that area.
Drop the spirits damage duration health etc and then link it to the Ritualists primary track. That could dramatically reduce the number of spirit spam builds out there to Ritualist primaries. All the Necro Mesmer Ele Monk etc spirit spam builds would still operate but at a much reduced effect. |
A good example of my this is D/W Crit Scythe, where your primary focus comes from a secondary and doesnt require investment in your primary at all.
fr.aodhan
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Originally Posted by NerfHerder
Maybe its just a pet peeve of mine, but I have always felt that secondaries should be used as a utility and not the primary focus of your build.
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I managed not to try SoS on my main, a Dervish, until a couple of days ago. And, despite myself, I was in awe. Pity, though.
Malkin
Every game has OP builds. also, for every one lamenting over not wanting an SoS sucking the fun out of the game for them, there is another one who wont join unless you have an SoS in your group.
shoyon456
Rits are still the most effective spirit spammers (albeit not by much) and spirit spamming fills a nice niche since you can't have more than one SoS on a team effectively. The damage is much higher than most other means, but since you can't overlap SoS there's little problem with it, unlike SF.
Sure it's become a "staple" of most group builds due to its effectiveness, but how is that any different from the whole "tank" and ele "nuke" concept? It shouldn't be a problem just because it's not a trinity class or done in the traditional way.
Sure it's become a "staple" of most group builds due to its effectiveness, but how is that any different from the whole "tank" and ele "nuke" concept? It shouldn't be a problem just because it's not a trinity class or done in the traditional way.
Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by shoyon456
Rits are still the most effective spirit spammers (albeit not by much) and spirit spamming fills a nice niche since you can't have more than one SoS on a team effectively. The damage is much higher than most other means, but since you can't overlap SoS there's little problem with it, unlike SF.
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Ayuhmii Shanbwa
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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt
The damage being much higher means spirit spamming isn't just filling "a niche". When spirit spammers can solo things with ease, and dual spammers - SoS+SoGM - deal more damage than a whole team by themselves, well, sorry, that's not a "niche" anymore. Toning down damage isn't really killing the thing.
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also, ritualist, the name says it ritual (ritual bindings)
before the buff people didnt use em much, now they use em like mad
toning down the damage wont kill it, no, but reduce the dmg too much and you got another worthless skill, and if they touch SoS a real bad way, we have yet another worthless elite skill, while elites are supposed to be.... elite
i think that if spirit spams should be toned down, my suggestion could work best for non-primary rits
it would at least reduce the numbers of sprit spammers, and it would make other primaries useless with spirits, which are meant to be with ritualists
and spirit spams dont do much bad to the game at all, the users dont, unless its those non-stop users, but like 70+% is like that lately
what the OP said isnt true, that they kill pugs
its true that there arent that much of nice skills for rits, but nerf all spirits, and it gets worse, cuz tehn they have even more useless/weak skills
sure that bison can be defeated with it, but thats just a quest, a quest which let people make solo builds
its not overpowered, as it cant solo everything or do real stuff, maybe a few farms, but even i could make builds for some places (more for NM than for HM) and without using an elite
** i said i COULD, didnt DO it **
@Aba: if you dont like it, why even bother posting?
that time could've been used for something you DO like
gremlin
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Remove the spawning health bonus for spirits. Spirits should not act as tanks. They should be fragile and their placement out of battle should be a key tactic to playing a ritualist. - Link spawning to either the damage of the spirits or the number of spirits that you can place at a time. - Nerf Siphon Spirit to a point where it is not acting as an infinite energy source. |
Spirits may well be fragile but you could also argue that they are none corporial and should have a high resistance to normal damage, and you cannot place them out of battle.
They are in the battle so they can attack or benefit the party there is no safe place to put them and have them still function.
All you can do is space them out a little and if one is attacked use summon spirits to reposition them, but the enemy usually follows unless blocked,
Constant use of summon spirits is the tactic.
Linking any of the spirits effects to Spawning is good I agree with that.
Duration, damage, health should be so linked.
Also those spirits that take damage when they use their powers should take less damage as spawning power goes up, agony, Displacement, Earthbind, shelter, union and rejuvenation should all benefit from this.
Spirit siphon I never use since if I am in a battle there isn't the time to use it and if there isn't a battle I don't need to use it.
In a battle I am summoning healing and moving spirits not running from spirit to spirit getting small amounts of energy.
Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa
its not overpowered, as it cant solo everything or do real stuff
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Sorry, "overpowered" is not defined by the percentage of stuff you can solo with a certain build.
EDIT
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Originally Posted by gremlin
Spirits may well be fragile but you could also argue that they are none corporial and should have a high resistance to normal damage, and you cannot place them out of battle.
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If anything, Spirits should not burn, as originally designed.
gremlin
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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt
You can solo way too many things with a spirit spammer, "real stuff" included. Those areas you can't solo, are easily doable with 1/3 of the party originally intended for the area, thanks to the spirit spammer alone. That is enough for it to be overpowered, both when compared to other options available to other classes and to other options available to the Ritualist itself.
Sorry, "overpowered" is not defined by the percentage of stuff you can solo with a certain build. EDIT Spirits already have comparatively low health but higher armor than other creatures of the same level. That's exactly to simulate a non-corporeal, fragile creature that's highly resistant to damage but also prone to vanish. If anything, Spirits should not burn, as originally designed. |
Point taken about spirits high armour vs damage I should have phrased my comment better.
Solo capability surely isn't a problem, this game has now and always did have such builds, it is simply the time for a previously underrated class to have its moment of glory.
Warriors have had solo builds that worked quite well and have never had problems getting into parties, unlike Ritualists.
Monk and Necro had the 33 hp 103 hp or whatever solo builds that also had their good times.
The Ele earth tank and similar builds did very well as did the Ranger when trapping was considered great.
Then along came Assassin and Ritualist.
Both were slandered initially the former because they were mostly played by idiots the latter because so many skills had huge cool down periods.
Sure you could make a lightning damage build but Elementalists did it so much better.
Then rits became favoured healers and now its the spirit spam that's king and we all know how popular Assassins are right now.
Next it will be the turn of the newest classes Paragons and Dervishes.
What goes around comes around let the Ritualist have their brief moment in the sun.
shoyon456
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Originally Posted by gremlin
Then along came Assassin and Ritualist.
Both were slandered initially the former because they were mostly played by idiots the latter because so many skills had huge cool down periods. Sure you could make a lightning damage build but Elementalists did it so much better. Then rits became favoured healers and now its the spirit spam that's king and we all know how popular Assassins are right now. Next it will be the turn of the newest classes Paragons and Dervishes. What goes around comes around let the Ritualist have their brief moment in the sun. |
Rits never replaced Monk healers. Like in their lightning attacks, they healed much differently, often relying on synergizing with spirits. They were an alternative for easy areas, but never in a serious team build did I dare try to replace a Monk with Divine Favor.
Assassins are popular because of a single OP'd skill and its' mechanic which should never exist in this game: Shadow Form. They have other great uses mostly demonstrated in PvP, but because of this single skill nearly everything else in PvE is deemed null.
Dervishes will come first
Paras you won't see anything for until mid next year at Anet's current pace, so speculating about that now isn't necessary.
Skyy High
Comparatively speaking, SoS is nothing compared to UB. They're just not on the same level of crazy. The fact that SoS is the biggest thing to complain about right now is saying a lot, IMO.
Xiaquin
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Originally Posted by shoyon456
Sure it's become a "staple" of most group builds due to its effectiveness, but how is that any different from the whole "tank" and ele "nuke" concept? It shouldn't be a problem just because it's not a trinity class or done in the traditional way.
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Simply put, I believe SS is too effective for the modest cost:massive benefit ratio associated with it.
Xydrych
Rits can still go resto and dwg.
Lanier
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Originally Posted by shoyon456
Rits never replaced Monk healers. Like in their lightning attacks, they healed much differently, often relying on synergizing with spirits. They were an alternative for easy areas, but never in a serious team build did I dare try to replace a Monk with Divine Favor.
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snowman relic
people complain about shadow form, SoS, ursan, and yet theirs a white elephant in the room 55's it took areanet i dont remember maybe it was 4 years to succesfully nerf it from soloing the UW, to be honest dying nightmares were just a small inconvience only the dhuum skeletons are actually succesful in keeping them out of the UW and yet ive never seen anyone complain about 55's yet they owned the farming industry for years. how this relates to SoS is 55 was the origional farm so no one complained it became useless in areas or less effective so people used new farms and the current newest meta like 55 is SoS yes its easier but its because people have gotten smarter at making brainless builds
NerfHerder
Hmmm, what if they just changed spirit damage type to dark or some other non armor ignoring damage?
Lanier
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Originally Posted by NerfHerder
Hmmm, what if they just changed spirit damage type to dark or some other non armor ignoring damage?
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UnChosen
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Originally Posted by NerfHerder
Hmmm, what if they just changed spirit damage type to dark or some other non armor ignoring damage?
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gremlin
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Originally Posted by shoyon456
I'm not sure what your view on this actually is based on the last post, but Rit lightning damage spells have always been much different from the Ele's mostly single target lightning spikes.
Rits never replaced Monk healers. Like in their lightning attacks, they healed much differently, often relying on synergizing with spirits. They were an alternative for easy areas, but never in a serious team build did I dare try to replace a Monk with Divine Favor. Assassins are popular because of a single OP'd skill and its' mechanic which should never exist in this game: Shadow Form. They have other great uses mostly demonstrated in PvP, but because of this single skill nearly everything else in PvE is deemed null. |
My point has remained the same since my first post on this thread.
The suggestion made by others is that the sos skill and or spirit spam builds are far to overpowered.
I dispute they are any more overpowered than any other exploit type build used to farm vanquish or otherwise solo areas.
The first such build I guess was unlimited Minions though that is before my time so not sure.
Each of the classes in turn has had the ability to do the same.
I mentioned Ritualist healers because there have been several posts stating that Rits have replaced Monks in this area I was assuming this was true.
I then mentioned a lightning damage build which was my first build used by my ritualist because I couldn't formulate any other decent build.
Before they nerf sos they should give the Ritualist skills the once over so we have something to replace it.
Finally my constant point over many threads is that all the classes should have at least one thing they do well and better than any other class so they can find a place in parties.
FyrFytr998
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Originally Posted by gremlin
Finally my constant point over many threads is that all the classes should have at least one thing they do well and better than any other class so they can find a place in parties.
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Essence Snow
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Originally Posted by FyrFytr998
Umm...all classes do in fact have something they do better than other classes. Just cause other classes can run Spirit spam doesn't make them better. Ritualists have bigger and better spirits than other classes.
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Grj
Quote:
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Originally Posted by snowman relic
people complain about shadow form, SoS, ursan, and yet theirs a white elephant in the room 55's it took areanet i dont remember maybe it was 4 years to succesfully nerf it from soloing the UW, to be honest dying nightmares were just a small inconvience only the dhuum skeletons are actually succesful in keeping them out of the UW and yet ive never seen anyone complain about 55's yet they owned the farming industry for years. how this relates to SoS is 55 was the origional farm so no one complained it became useless in areas or less effective so people used new farms and the current newest meta like 55 is SoS yes its easier but its because people have gotten smarter at making brainless builds
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People cry to get skills nerfed while ignoring other broken skills/builds/items. Completely agree with the 55 and its varients.
Although people might not agree but bitch, cry and whine on this fourm and others loud and/or long enough and anet will eventually take action.
The 55 and its varients finally gets proper hit it deserves after four years. Funny enough after the mass whining to nerf it and shadow form.
Spirit spam has been around for a while now and people wait till now when they can't get into groups or its the only build people will let them run to spawn a thread stating it needs a nerf.
Lanier
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Originally Posted by Grj
Spirit spam has been around for a while now and people wait till now when they can't get into groups or its the only build people will let them run to spawn a thread stating it needs a nerf.
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UnChosen
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Originally Posted by Lanier
Honestly, I kind of am surprised that a thread wasn't created before now regarding spirit spam. I was going to create a thread awhile back asking for a buch of the OP stuff to be nerfed but after seeing the response people had to the "nerf AP" and the "remove PvE skills" threads, I figured that most people here don't even care about balance anymore. Personally, I think the game would be a lot better if skills were better balanced so that there weren't like a few super OP skills and a bunch of underpowerd skills, but like I said earlier in this thread, Iv kinda given up on promoting my point. Plus, its not like Anet cares enough about us anymore to promote balance. They'll probably just keep advancing power creep with more and more buffs and no nerfs. Buffs for underpowered skills are good but they need to be balanced with nerfs to the OP skills, and while anet has been buffing, they havent been nerfing. Its just really bad for the game the way they are creating power creep.
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Pugs + Spirits Spam = Fail. They cast all their spirits into the range of AoE, cast them behind the monks against melee, and/or cast summon spirits every 5 seconds so that their poor spirits won't get hit.
Aba
Quote:
| Pugs + Spirits Spam = Fail. They cast all their spirits into the range of AoE, cast them behind the monks against melee, and/or cast summon spirits every 5 seconds so that their poor spirits won't get hit. |
Which is just asking for AOE to destroy them.
(though when used correctly its very handy)
Lanier
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Originally Posted by UnChosen
Looking at guilds or people who farm all day is not an accurate measure of skills...those people can make ANYTHING seem overpowered.
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gremlin
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Originally Posted by FyrFytr998
Umm...all classes do in fact have something they do better than other classes. Just cause other classes can run Spirit spam doesn't make them better. Ritualists have bigger and better spirits than other classes.
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Quite a few classes have been sidelined in the past because they were undervalued.
The problem would seem to be that secondary class skills can at times be far to powerful.
The primary skill tracks were supposed to limit this crossover but they do not go far enough.
In role playing terms someone who has spent 30 years learning elemental magic should be miles better at it then a necromancer who took it at evening classes.
In fact it often comes down to a few points here and there.
FyrFytr998
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Just curious, but what to Dervs do better? Avatars?
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reaper with no name
Yes, but dervishes are the exception, not the rule. Every other class has at least one thing it can do better than everyone else (though, admittedly, it's often not what the class was originally intended to do).
No one can pull off HB+WA better than a warrior. No one can spam SY and Barrage as well as a Ranger. No one can outclean a monk. Etc, etc.
Comparing Spirit Spam to pre-nerf SF or Ursan is laughable.
Is Spirit Spam overpowered? Of course. It has to be in order to allow Ritualists to compete in today's overpowered meta. Their power is compensation for their unstackability (which prevents everyone in the party from running them).
But can Spirit Spam anally violate the game with a foreign object while robbing it blind at the same time? No. That's the difference between builds like Spirit Spam or 55 (which are powerful) and builds like the old SF or Ursan (which trivialize the entire game).
So, to answer the OP's question, Spirit Spam will be nerfed when it breaks the game.
No one can pull off HB+WA better than a warrior. No one can spam SY and Barrage as well as a Ranger. No one can outclean a monk. Etc, etc.
Comparing Spirit Spam to pre-nerf SF or Ursan is laughable.
Is Spirit Spam overpowered? Of course. It has to be in order to allow Ritualists to compete in today's overpowered meta. Their power is compensation for their unstackability (which prevents everyone in the party from running them).
But can Spirit Spam anally violate the game with a foreign object while robbing it blind at the same time? No. That's the difference between builds like Spirit Spam or 55 (which are powerful) and builds like the old SF or Ursan (which trivialize the entire game).
So, to answer the OP's question, Spirit Spam will be nerfed when it breaks the game.
Kranas
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Originally Posted by Aba
Great point, Most Pugs that use the SoS bar like to brind this bad boyhttp://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Summon_Spirits
Which is just asking for AOE to destroy them. (though when used correctly its very handy) |
Missing HB
Quote:
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
So, to answer the OP's question, Spirit Spam will be nerfed when it breaks the game. |
Gill Halendt
Quote:
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Is Spirit Spam overpowered? Of course. It has to be in order to allow Ritualists to compete in today's overpowered meta. Their power is compensation for their unstackability (which prevents everyone in the party from running them).
But can Spirit Spam anally violate the game with a foreign object while robbing it blind at the same time? No. That's the difference between builds like Spirit Spam or 55 (which are powerful) and builds like the old SF or Ursan (which trivialize the entire game). |
A slight nerf - like making SoS less mindless, but just as functional, by increasing the recharge / slightly reducing damage / reducing the number of summoned spirits, any of these - would leave Spirit Spam definitely competitive without it being the default choice for pretty much everything in the game.
Is a nerf needed? Not really.
Is it good for the game? As long as it is done properly, with care not to destroy Spirit Spam entirely, it is, IMO, as it stimulates more variety and a more proactive playstile, instead of relying to easy-win buttons.
Xiaquin
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Originally Posted by Kranas
I don't know why other people bring summon spirits to PUGs, but for me personally I've usually brought it because I know how impatient most/all PUGs are. I very rarely use it when playing with H/H...They have abit more patience.
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Windf0rce
Spirits are hard to balance. It's the type of thing that is either overpowered, or undepowered. I prefer them slightly overpowered, though. Way more fun and it's great to see Rits having their place at the PvE meta. Currently every profession has very strong builds and the Dervish buff is apparently on the horizon.
I prefer having a lot of OP professions which are fun to play as than a lot of worthless ones.
I prefer having a lot of OP professions which are fun to play as than a lot of worthless ones.
Arata Hijime
Uh. Spirits aren't overpowered. Painful Bond is what deals most of the damage.
Just saying.
Just saying.
Kranas
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Originally Posted by Xiaquin
I'm not sure why a full spirit build wouldn't bring it. You've never laid them down only to find they don't have line of sight on something? You don't mind them sitting in Breath of Fire or Meteor Shower? You can deal with replacing all spirits instead of moving them up to the next mob? Can't they also be used to body block?
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I'm not saying I have an issue with someone who wants to use summon spirits on their bar, alot of people seem to treat it as a must no matter what, but I really don't think its indispensable. You can still play fast paced in most areas because most of PvE is a faceroll and you can pull another group to the spirits with proper placement after the first group is toast. If it isn't a faceroll the CD on spirits is probably going to be up again after the battle anyway because it actually took more then 10 seconds.