Feedback on the Halloween Update (From a PvP perspective)

Never really liked the format, but man... If they give snowball arena the same treatment then that's two holiday formats down the drain.

I'm mildly confused on the effort to make 3 (or is it more?) completely new maps for a 1 week format when we have the stagnant cesspit that is Codex and so many existing problems with HoH and GvG, let alone RA.

Don't get me wrong, it's nice to see a bit of change and must be particuarly nice for PvE players to have something new, myself and many pvpers i know have enjoyed it too even with the lack of good team continuation. But it would be very nice to actually see the result of some similar effort on our 4 remaining arena's.

I'm assuming this is an extra map they had lying around that just needed some finishing up. It roughly reflects the destroyer's environment. These four maps were likely created in EotN for hero battles but never included for whatever reason.

Good point, suppose its highly likely they were never finished and now recycled.

it is always good to see new maps and shuffling the team after every much is great imo.
at least it makes me feel every new match IS a new match lol. i like the format a lot. thanks anet

One problem is that the old CB was one of the favorite formats for many pvp players. It creates balance without sacrificing teamwork. It was what a lot of people wanted Codex to be. Taking away the teamwork aspect of it and rewards for good play has basically ruined a favorite format, whether Anet considers it pvp or not. So it is natural that a lot of people are upset.

The costume brawl is for players of all levels to go and have fun, not just for PvP regulars to use as a "beat the crap out of those stupid PvE'ers" who don't know what they are doing.

It looks like the changes were made to stop syncing (correct me there if there is some deeper meaning here). I don't think it was a great solution but it obviously worked. If some members of the community could exercise self control and not sync to bypass the random nature of entry to begin with this could have been avoided. Before anyone gets their hackles up notice I wrote some not the community at large.

tl;dr - A few bad apples spoil the bunch, vent towards the people who really deserve it.

What was your point again?

That pve'ers prefer the dumbed down format because they are somehow unwilling to form relations with other players or improve their tactical gameplay? Or is the goal to make the format so undesirable for pvp oriented players that they will stay away?

No. Let's make a comparison.
It's like an arcade game machine.
A PvPer would be that big boy that is hoarding the 1P button.
And in the 2P, there would be a row of PvErs that lose most of the time.

Now, let's bring the game machine to someone's birthday.
All kids get even turns to play, because that way not all kids get to play. And unless the machine in the arcade, that may stay for a long time, the birthday one is hired for just some days.

In the first case, there's nothing really wrong. The big boy paid for his game, and people keep challenging him. If he is good, he deserves to keep playing, and if the owner kicks him out, well. He shouldn't if he didn't cheat. If you are good, and you win, there's nothing wrong with it.
If another big boy comes and beats him, he'll let any kid replace him, but once his turn come again, since he has more experince, he'll probably get to keep the arcade for some time again.


But in the birthday party, all kids are supposed to have fun, so they are given turns to play.
The kids will sometimes complain, of course. But it's a party, and you'll cry if you want to, but that won't change what parents will do.
Unless the parents are jackasses, even the 'challenged' ones get their turn evenly.


And if you are really good, you won't need 5..25 matches to 'bond' with your teammates. You'll need 2 seconds. Guildelines like:
- Stick together!
- Don't go solo!
- For the love of Greth, DON'T FEED THEM!
- We'll try 2-3, but if they go 5, you 2 run back to the 3 and we stick together until they split.
Can be given quite fast before the match starts.
Of course not everyone will listen. But they must. Even in PvE following the leader is important. So if you really know what you are doing, take the wheel and direct! Radar, calls, and text can be used for that. We don't have in-gave voip like many FPS, or quick-text commands, but still we can comunicate to a certain extent.


Of course in RA is better to be with them more time. You may find a really good team, and maybe leter join for HA or join in a guild and try HA.
But this is a festival game, for Grenth's sake.
It's purpose it's not that. It's just... simple fun! Like when you play some Valve game in multiplayer with a bunch of friends and it doesn't matter if you win or lose.

Let all kids play!

This makes no sense, I don't know if I should comment or not. The pvp'ers aren't getting more playtime than anyone else, there is no difference from the old system to the new one here.

The only difference is that all the fun has been sucked out of the format. Most of the excitement I hear on this forum seems to come from pve'ers that find some twisted delight in seeing pvp'ers complain about the changes.

I don't understand where you find the authority to say what CB is and should be. It is, in fact, a format with great potential for employing tactics and cooperation. Why throw all that away just because the worst players in GW want to farm tot bags? Can't they just go and farm raptors for that? The playstyle is exactly the same, roll face on keyboard and repeat 100 times. Why ruin the few remaining areas in the game that leave some room for socializing?

It has got nothing to do with winning. I'd rather be on a consecutive losing streak with the same people than getting new people on my team all the time. It's absolutely no problem to win now and you are right it requires skill to assess both your allies and foes quickly to figure out where to go/who to help. But this gets boring really quickly. You must keep in mind even skilled pvp'ers are humans, bringing your A-game to every little match for no reward will exhaust even the most ambitious player.

Trolls. Nothing more to be said, stop trolling this issue, been explained before.

Yes, that was my point. I don't know if you're arguing or agreeing with me, but to clarify things: I was pro-consecutive points (increase as you get more consecutive) as it's a naturally more fitting reward system for PvP.

I keep saying "reward" and "reward". Let me get straight, there are 2 kinds of rewards, the good kind and the bad kind. I'm pretty sure everyone is intelligent enough to draw a line between both. When people get rewarded for doing absolutely nothing but bash some buttons, people will play for the rewards, rather the format. Vice versa, when the rewards are scaled towards the skill input of the player, a player would have to be good, or become better, at the game to reap the rewards, which are the good kind.

In PvE the former is usually the rule. Throwing boxes filled with rewards at people, not because they "deserve them" but just because. The truth is that this would result in more people getting rewards, because the majority of people simply aren't capable of delivering the input needed to truly "reap" rewards. (Which is mostly because Guild Wars PvE pampers you from day1)

So the question you should ask yourself is: Why play the game alltogether? As most people, both pro and con side, agreed upon: CB just became alot more random. Whoever wins now because more a luck of the draw rather than individual skill. (because your team shifts every game) Why would people play together alltogether then? Why not simply do /resign?

Surely, alot of the PvE'ers play for fun, but as I've said as my opening arguement in my OP: Fun is subjective. A monkey might think it's fun to play with a stick for 2 hours straight, but the average human would be bored fairly fast. And that's what CB got reduced too, playing with a stick. And the worst part is: It doesn't even matter what you do with the stick, as you've got an overal 50% chance of winning or losing regardless. So you can now hold a stick for 5 minutes, to have a 50% chance of rewards, only to explain to complete rediculisation of the case.

The game got dumbed down to a level where you simply have to throw a stick around for 5 minutes, and might or might not get a reward. That's what I'm complaining about.

I said that PvP'ers in general care more about fun than rewards, as victory on it's own is a reward. For PvE'ers victory on it's own isn't a reward, because the analogy mentioned earlier, it can be achieved simply by holding a stick for 5 minutes. They want something extra. I'm all in favor of increasing the rewards of PvP (like what they did now), but not at the cost of playability or competitiveness.

When Anet rewards 50 ToT bags per win at GvG, I say that even if it were the reward system implemented right (which it isn't, because it would just get RR'd), the rewards simply aren't high enough for people to even begin GvG'ing.


I played since beta, I only joined guru so late because GW was my first real MMO, and I never got engaged in the community. But thanks for once again reducing the intire arguement to PvE vs. PvP, it goes to show how deep the frustration goes amongst PvE'ers. I never said GW was a dominated PvP game, I know the large majority is PvE. That doesn't mean that PvE'ers are right on every matter.

Again, if 90% of the PvE'ers were offered a single button to kill every foe in radar, most of them would implement it, or slowly build up the power creep. Why? Because PvE'ers don't learn what game balance is. They only learn C + space and brining enough damage to kill the enemy. If you can't handle this, or think this is elitist talk, I'm really sorry but /cutwrists. Life. Deal with it.

This is not some subjective claim, this is the truth: PvE does not need, or want, you to actively engage at GW. It wants you to roll your head over the keyboard and farm monsters with redicilously imbalanced mechanics/spells. That's good and all, I LOVE steamrolling through PvE on my warrior with splinter buff etc, but it sure as hell doesn't give me any form of foundation to improve at GW, because it is simply not needed.

This is why the Test Krewe failed on so many levels, and a large part of the PvP-community within left (I know over 5 friends who left solely cuz the PvE part of the Krewe simply hasn't got a clue what they're doing). And making an objective statement like this automatically gets you labelled "elitist", because god forbid PvE'ers are all that is good and right in GW.

PvP'ers want challenge, PvE'ers want rewards. Costume brawl is a PvP-minigame and I believe it should get treated as such. Was the intire point of this thread/complaint. Revert the autopilot from CB, fix syncing the right way, and change the bars from being gimped, boring, one dimensional buttonbashers to versatile bars such as the old palmstrike.

That makes sense if you read the rest of the post.
So if you don't understand, then I take you didn't.

10. Read it again.
20. Don't understand it? GOTO 10.
(Just a note, I'm not shouting, it's a BASIC command, XD)


The Festival games are NOT another PvP format.
It's not something I say it 'should' be. It's something I see by myself.

They are meant to let all join. They are just simple games. And like all games, you learn something by playing them. For example, some of the things you may learn:
- Dragon Arena: Dodging. Timing projectiles.
- Rollerbeetle: Wads movement.
- Snowball arena: Among other things, to prioritize targets.

What was Costume Brawl's purpose? It was basically RA with bigger parties and pre-made builds.
Now, with that change, even Costume Arena has one purpose:

- Costume Arena: Teaches getting used quickly to a party random people.

See? Now it's a proper game arena! Nothing serious. Just go there, and do what you can. You can't do anything because half of the time you get bad players? Well, you'll have to have patience and wait until they learn, because we are playing in the schoold yard, not in the regionals.

Dear Anet~ Its great thank you for this event and all you do. Its an event...Free no charge event that they do and we do for fun. We have bigger concerns like;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4o-TeMHys0

Touche.....granted that post was a direct reply to a post that basically was doing the same thing (calling PvErs stick toting monkeys), I could have incorporated some relavent points and not sunk to the same level. Imo the random teams every round actually increase the individual as well as the team challenge. Why? Because now one has to coordiante in much smaller time frame. You have about 1min to set your team for each match....that's it. Sounds more challenging to me than mutiple planning sessions. Anyhow anywho...I can't believe you got me Morphy..

Your entire argument can be summarized as "CB isn't PvP because I said it isn't."

PVP claims to want evenly matched competitive games and this is giving you more even matches more often so what if you can't "bond" with your team. Sounds to me like the fun you got is when you got a nice team (syncing or not) and roll over people.

The point is that PvEers prefer a more casual, laid-back format. Is it really such a bad thing for a PvEer to want a less competitive format?

No, not at all, that's why PvE exists. The intire point about competitive
PvP is to be thrilling and action.

I concider the intire battle isles to be Competitive PvP, including holiday events.

What do the pvpers get?

I don't understand what is competitive about syncing or lucking into a good team and then pub stomping random bad teams.

The entire argument against the current CB by "pvpers" falls apart when you look at it. If you want organised pvp where skill + organisation matter and it's not just killing pve mobs who do the same thing all the time as some people are so fond of saying, you got it, HA and GvG are both organised pvp venues for people who want that.

The main complaint from people is that they can't sync or stay in one team, right? But if PvEr's are so bad at the game (and plenty of them are) then how is that a test of skill, basically you're grinding level 20 NM mobs some of whom have no understanding of tactics or the victory conditions and terrible AI and in CBs they can't even have original or unexpected builds you need to counter, you know exactly what you're fighting. So while you can claim that you prefer tests of skill everything demanded by the OP disproves that. Seems more like certain people want something easier than even NM prophecies.

I guess it must be difficult for the "pvpers" who are used to using a build off PvX, and relying on superior organisation to make up for a lack of skill to take part in competitive PvP but that's hardly Anet's fault. I've lost more CBs due to the loudest people not having any idea beyond one flawed inflexible tactic that they can't and won't adapt than I have from general incompetence. As for lucky to get 3 consecutive victories, I don't know if you have played much of the new CB but I've had 2-3 consecutive victories a few times and so far got as high as 8 and I haven't played more than a few hours.

I don't really get why you want to be able to sync or continue with the same team since it's hardly going to create a challenge you just keep playing til one of the few other sync or winning team knocks you off. Surely good pvpers must have better ways of gaining Balth. faction and if you don't have a PvE character who can grind ToT bags faster than CBs will get you why would you even want them since the stuff they drop is for PvE titles and boosts? The only reason I can see is to grind gamer title points which isn't exactly a respected pvp title since most of it comes from minigames. The only answer that makes sense is that you're a title hoarder who wants another title to contribute to his GWAMM and doesn't want to have to pay through the nose for one of the others, which would also explain why you seem to be having so much trouble winnning without a big advantage like syncing or waiting for a team that can carry you. I could be wrong but that's the only thing that makes sense from what you've said.

tl;dr "pvpers" claim to like skill based gameplay, actually asking for faceroll victories for title points.

Edit. Guy above said everthing I said in one line, ah well

Where is red resign when you need it?

Resigning still works nicely in CB, but there are too many ppl who don't know what the hell it means.

I know its the internet and alll....but damnn are people on here some huge bigots. Read the damn posts before you post a reply to the arguement. Oh wait...your lazy bigots....

QQ out of the way

-------------------------------------------------------


http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...4&postcount=92
^Killed u man's post.


Read it. It makes sense if you bother to try and understand it.

Inherently CB is a form of pvp by nature. It involves 10 people playing against each other?! Just because its a holiday arena that shows up once a year, doesn't make it any less of a pvp arena.

Just because its supposed to be a fun game doesn't mean it can't be competitive. Look at RBR. Thats HUGELY competitive. They even gave us snowball ATs. In any given game, someone will desire to be absurdly competitive and good at it.

You don't see game designers after the fact go, ohh wait good teams are winning too much. We should eliminate consistent teams. Uh lolwut?? Team game no longer revolves around teams...hhmm somethings wrong with that. Oh i know the fact that teams no longer matter!?

Just because you cover up the fact that bad kids got steamrolled by teams who even had a remote sense of what to do, doesn't change the fact that bad kids still suck. Now the bad kids just don't see it any more. They get blinded by the fact they are winning occasionally, and can't blame it on their team because it changes every time.

If this debate is going to evolve from "oh they finally fixed syncing" (because they really didn't - they gave you more smoke n mirrors) to "mini-games shouldn't be competitive", then ANET needs to make a team arena version of CB. No ATs don't count. If the mini-games are going to turn into a purely pve, happy-go-lucky, crap-fest of players running in circles in costumes screaming because they've never had so much fun. Give them their own arena. I don't want to play with those people. Its perfectly acceptable to be that way.

Its not acceptable however to force those that want to play a more competitive game to play in a social environment. Its also not acceptable to force them to play at extremely high end competitive. I don't want to have to join a guild, just so I can attempt to play ATs once a day.

This is one area in which the GW system fails. In order to introduce this you have to make entirely new arenas just to accompany the different playlists.
In other games, you could make private servers, custom games, different playlists, etc. In GW, you are forced to play with what Anet gives you.

But if Anet is going to switch to we love casual gamers (because they make them more money - its truth), at least cater to those competitive, and even hardcore players.

Neglecting a good portion of your player base, just to make the game more casual-gamer friendly is not good management or good business.

I love how none of the PVErs complained about being face rolled against good teams, now all of sudden because they need to be carried they shout out your elitist, get the hell out of the forum, why? Because your not being taken seriously, your casual players who really dont care.

The most amazing fun I have had was playing a in long consecutive string of matches last year (not synced) and we beat synced teams and players. The team was amazing, full of talent and players who were not on vent but knew how to actually play in a tactical situation. Now this is gone, totally.

What was wrong with that? Tell me?

None of the players yelled at other players, hurl abuse at the defeated and other teams even synced ones were giving us creds. What was wrong with that?

Why is it PVEers care so much about a format they will only play a few hours in the holiday anyway?

It is the PVP community who steps up and takes part actively in this format, and for those who do not think it is serious, nor is PvE, so why do you bother making comments here that really PvP players care about? Your not taken seriously anyway. And thats how you want it right?

Honestly. Both sides of the community can enjoy this, but Anet as usual stepped up to the mark and f***** it up again.

As a game developer your not going to be taken too seriously either.

Silver

Costume battles were not designed as a serious format for competitive play. It's essentially a casual seasonal pvp format. If it was a format that involved premade organized teams or kept skill tracking metrics (ELO, truskill, etc) then we could try to have a serious talk about how Costume battle is competitive.

The system does not intentionally pit your randomly decent team against other randomly decent teams or sync teams of the same skill level.

I see a lot of people bashing "PvE" players in these threads. When someone steps into RA, Costume Ball, or Dragon Arena they're playing a PvP game type. This makes them PvP players just like you even if they don't take it as seriously as you do. They are a part of your community.

My point was that there can and should be competitive and casual PvP formats. Those, like yourself, can stick to the competitive formats and those PvPers who just want to have fun in addition to those PvEers who like to PvP from time to time can play the casual formats.

The larger complaint isn't that you cannot sync, but that now even if you chance on a good team that you cannot then build some basic coordination with them (much like what happens in RA).

However now obviously people are chucked in randomly each time and it's a complete runabout.

This doesn't stop the fun, however it does detract from a lot of players fun who take the arena a bit more seriously than the average participant. Plus since district merges and with so many people playing syncing would be much much less of a problem (hypothetically).

P.S. STOP RESETTING MY SKILL ORDER

Is the crying this bad within the actual matches or just on the forums?

I've yet to see any complaining in the matches I've been in.

Sure, there is HA and gvg. But you have to understand that these are hard to get into and require consistent playing and a lot of dedication. Being 8-man arenas you need to be in an active guild or have a lot of friends on your flist. You can't have too many people in the guild either or they will be frustrated by not getting to play, so every time someone leaves for whatever reason(school, work, dies, gets bored etc) you need to recruit to replace that player. In a competitive environment like HA or gvg you also need 8 like-minded people, that means having more or less the same ambitions, skill level and attitude. I could write a lot more about problems like these, my point is they're not easily accessible formats.

A huge problem with pvp today is that there is no middle ground from pve or low end pvp to high end pvp. Well there is AB I suppose. But both TA and CB could have been excellent stepping stones for people trying out pvp and possibly progressing into higher end formats. There are a lot more middle or low end pvp'ers than there are high end pvp'ers. There's a big potential for bridging the gap between the polarities. I just don't get why you want to take that away by dragging CB down into the mud.

Stop repeating this false accusation. There's not a single post in this thread by anyone complaining about not being able to sync.

There is something totally wrong with your picture of a pvp'er. People who are loud in CB are not necessarily a typical pvp'er. And having an inflexible tactic and being unable to adapt is more a definition of a pve'er than a pvp'er if you ask me. When I speak so highly of CBs potential for tactical play I mean just that option for adaptation and making quick decisions not having a stale tactic. You got it all backwards. But congrats on your impressive streaks.

Again the sync argument. No one complains about not being able to sync. As for the challenge you're right, having bad allies is more of a challenge than having good allies. But seriously a pvp'er also wants to have fun, carrying teams in every round gets boring. Don't you miss the social aspect from previous years? Talking to people during a streak, finding out who you can rely on to watch your back etc? That's the fun part for me. I don't see this as an either-or, it should be possible to fix the syncing issue without screwing the whole format over. But if I had to choose between facing syncers every now and then and this tripe we have now I'd go with the syncing.

I have 13 mill balth faction(I think) and I have no interest in getting more. I don't give a shit about tot bags either. To preempt your question: yes, you can have them.

GWAMM? Who is that? I already have the skillz title(what rank am I? 6? 7? Actually I have no idea and I don't care either.) Once again, I have no problem winning this year's CB. My problem turned out to be it became incredibly boring incredibly fast. I found myself going 1v2 knowing I would die just to see how many arrows I could dodge, how many rupts I could land and how many of theirs I could fake. Not caring about winning the matches anymore. That's called frustration and it happens when there is no longer any incentive to win or play well.

C + space
V + space

All you need. :P

So because RA doesn't pre-organize teams or have a skill tracking method its not competitive???

Logic is flawed sir.

Just because something isn't designed for competitive gameplay, doesn't mean it can't be. I played the first level of Sonic 4 on xbox360 the other day with my friend for four hours trying to break 50second mark for completion time. Thats clearly not a competitive game and we played it like one.

Thats where game designers are supposed to update their game to make changes. Here they basically just said we don't want you to play this competitively outside of ATs. Thank you, have a nice day.


I realize theres a lack of support for GW1, but if you have enough time to code randomization of teams after EVERY match. You can come up with a better solution to syncing. I'd rather have double loading screens than this random crap.

If districts are that big of a factor in syncing, make everyone load into a single international waiting area thats devoid of districts. Then randomize the teams and load into the match.

Its clunky but it solves syncing. If thats what it takes, sacrificing game fluidity for no syncing. I'll take it.

This is guild wars guru, remember? Most of what happens in this section of the forum is whining.

In game, iv not encountered anyone whining.

Were you competing with your friend or against a goal that you set for yourself? If you were trying to see who could break 50 seconds and you and your friend were both similarly skilled at Sonic games then you could say that this is a fair challenge.

The problem with this example is that you were not trying to do a challenge in Sonic 4 with random teams where the pool of random players were of various levels of skill. There are a lot of things not designed with the intent of competitive game play but people design methods of matching people of similar skill level in order to create an honest competitive environment.

I don't agree that randomizing teams after every game is a great solution to syncing although it is trivial to implement something like this compared to designing a matchmaking system that works.

I'm all for getting to know your team if it matched the team you are on with other similarly skilled teams. I even think that it would be awesome if you could keep playing with your team even when you lost if you choose to (i.e Halo). This doesn't happen.

There is no strategy in getting skilled/decent players to randomly be assigned to your team.

yea, its kind sad that most of these discussions degenerate into a pvp vs pve quarrel. some people just like to bring in irrelevant stuff so they can give the impression of saying something substantial.

I have a high rank in the gamer title but I have to say is gamer even a considered a pvp title after seeing how its not counted as one for the HoM?

I think I read 2-3 posts in this thread. Don't really have anything to say in reply to any statements made, but....

This is my first year doing CB, so I have nothing to compare it to. At first the total randomness was a draw -- yay, no syncers! -- but as I get to understand the game better and try to devise strategies, the shuffling does get a little frustrating. There's no doubt that I could probably benefit personally from getting on a good team and playing several maps with them to learn some valuable lessons.

That said, pure randomness every round seems like the only fair way to play. Not just because of syncing, but also because it's just not fair for a ragtag team who may just be formed to play against a team that has a streak of consecutive wins and have forged a cohesive playstyle among them. The only solution to that would be to ideally pair one x-streak team against another x-streak team. But that would introduce wait times, and who wants that?

Cut the sanctimonious finger-pointing.