Feedback on the Halloween Update (From a PvP perspective)

so, it seems to u that all the people disagreeing with the new change have no good reasons, and are just qqing.either

1. you have not read the previous arguments put forth in this thread or the other cb thread, and thus completely ignorant of any. in which case you really should not make a claim like that

2. you have read them but intentionally chose to ignore them for your own purposes. in which case will invalid ur statement

3. you have read them and have a legit objection to them. in which case you not shown it

again, you are bringing in the largely irrelevant pvp vs pve debate.
if that is your picture of a typical "pvper" then thats fine. but tbh it is a dangerous generalization based on stereotypes and extreme situations. especially it is being utilized by AＬＯＴ　of people to falsely characterize the pvp community. and in this case, that is what you are doing


wait, what are you talking about? this new system is exactly the opposite of that. instead of entering one time and getting some leaver+resign+griefers before finally getting a good team and settling down, now you get it ALMOST EVERY GAME, and it dont stop because you nver settle down with a good team.


are you deliberately misinterpreting the quote? but to answer you question, the incentive in the old system is an organized, coordinated match up, with engaging tactical thinking and subtle but sophisticated strategies that just promotes winning as an end in itself. what do you have with the new system? none of that, its just a bunch of random ppl put together to fight a battle then the whole grp is gone. there is no way to develope any form of organization or teamwork beyond the typical slugfest dmg spam chaos.

btw, the maps in cb clearly have some correlations with the old hb maps. in other words, this format is supposed to encourage the type of strategic play style, because if it did not it would just be another ra arena. in addition to that, just some one playing well will most likely get more wins that loses, but that will be a lot more stressful because in the presence of incompetent teammates, which happens almost every game, they are forced to carry. in alot of these cases they are helplessly dragged down by the sheer incompetence of the team.


and i, amongst alot of other ppl, prefer the old cb system.

Not. Into "It's not your usual PvP, it's meant to promote everyone join and keep playing, not ones that are already regulars in PvP".

I now play much more PvE than PvP, but I didn't join GW after using one of those trial keys.
I bought GW after playing in one of the Open PvP weekends. I found it really fun.

If the usual PvP is not enough to lure more people, then something else must be tried, and I'd rather have them try it in a festival game than in the other PvP formats.

So, instead using the same rules, it has different rules. So no matter how good you are, if the others are bad, you'll have to fight with them sooner or later. And if they get better, that's neither bad or good, since you may also either be with or against them.

I still think that "The More, The Merrier".

I don't really know how to interpret this post. Are you pro or contra my OP then? Do you agree the changes were good or bad?

If you're on "the opposing team":

I fully agree that new people (PvE'ers) should be brougth to PvP. I hope by now, 5 years after GW release, people will finally learn to accept that PvP is the harder format to play (Need more dedication aswell as input and actual skill).

So when you want more people to play PvP (create a healthy influx, which currently doesn't exist anymore for either HA nor GvG), you indeed need lure them with healthy rewards and conditions. However, the intire point was that Anet is doing this in the wrong way.

Instead of bringing the playing field down to the level of PvE (where CB is at right now. I really notice a huge difference now that almost every PvP'er has left. Everyone just runs around like brainless chickens employing flawed tactics such as: "camp center all day and we'll win" or "don't fight only cap and run"), they should level up PvE'ers to the playing field. Some people, (a large part nontheless) however, completely refuse any form of input towards improving their competitiveness (which is their full right, play however you want to play), and those people have the right not to venture in PvP.

For those, however, willing to put in a bit more effort just for the sake of it, Anet needs to create small steps to slowly lure these people in. Rewards (such as ToT) bags is a good alternative, if only they were in a worthwhile amount (Don't get me wrong 50 ToT bags is ALOT for top GvG'ers, because they'll win alot of matches fast, but for a PvE guild, this means maybe 50 ToT bags per hour, peanuts...), and are actually earned rather than given freely. (Kinda like in CB where you have a 50% chance of winning or loosing, give or take, and rewards accordingly)

Because it is then new people come into contact with PvP, NOT to brainlessly farm, but to work towards the goal which is winning. Obviously this goes hand-in-hand with a healthy format. Look at HA for example: It is the prime example of how some PvE'ers came with the farming mentality to PvP, and actually managed to farm their way to R9, but still be completely clueless as to how the game exactly works. (Because farm builds exist when they shouldn't) This, however, is no problem in CB because there is no such thing as gimmick builds, there is only the 10 bars which are pre-determined.

Imo, CB is close to the ideal way of bringing new people into contact with PvP. Given them a set bar, set attributes, and force them to understand how their bar works in order to win. (Again, how the old palm strike worked. A bad player would be relatively bad whereas a good player would absolutely dominate) From there on, it's only a small step into the bigger formats, HA and GvG.

I'm liking the new CB format. I also liked the old one. I like the fact that I can get in rather quickly...I know my skills (or at least try to know them, lol)...and then assess what way I need to play.

Last year, I found it really frustrating to get in quickly only to be rolled by synced teams. This year, I find it a little frustrating that my teammates are different after each win. It's a nice feeling when you get a good team together and are able to play as one...until you're bested by a better team.

Peeps here are talking about tactics and teaching others and also about noobs and their lack of...whatever. I'd simply like syncing to be done away with before the beginning of the match. Assign random #'s to peeps when they hit Enter Battle. Then sort them however (#1's all together or shift place in line by so many--you get my drift I hope) so long as those hitting it at the same time...canceling...then hitting again all get in together (syncing) doesn't happen. Allow teams to stay together between matches when they win and bring back consecs with rewards. I like the competition and I also like to have some fun.

I think the warrior bar is fine. It's kinda self-sufficient leaning, reminding me of Korean bars back in the day.
Fun practice to get Bulls. ;P

if you end up in a 1v1 vs an ele or ranger you wont feel so self sufficient. Pin down run, pin dow run, + blind kd. Fun times

Time to play "quote war catch up" ...

Ignored commenting on this before, but...

I'll just say that I don't get the intention behind the map. But it still allows some intentive thought - while almost every path crosses another or risks easy combat, that's why you have to think which path is better. I.e., you're at one of the moral shrines and enemies are on the bridge - do you risk going under the bridge, do you go through the enemy base which is currently empty but enemies could rez at any moment and have an advantage over you, or do you go the long way around?

It's small, and it is easy to just go "rawr c space rawr!" but it's also making it much more thinking-needed.

Sadly, at the moment especially, people don't seem to think about what to do (I cannot tell you how many times I've had a teammate *usually warrior* who goes 1v3/4/5).

I woulda thought that a change in the typical format that you PvPers play would be enough fun for you. You know, having diversity and a lack of repetition.

Plikkup Works not showing up was a bug which was already fixed. There was no removal of maps.

You're right, that's not what's being said. The complaints are about the re-randomization...

Which is a fix to syncing and having good teams that steam role other teams.

Now, *I* am not saying it is QQ'ing about sync fixing, but it *is* complaining about the solution used for it. So don't go putting me in the group of the former in response to this please.

Some people are neutral in debates, merely trying to clarify points to promote better discussion. I tend to try to keep this - in my previous posts, and in this, I merely explained why things were done. Do I support them? Yes, but that's irrelevant to why I post.

I try to defend in the form of explanation of why things are done, not why I agree with what was done.

I'm very certain that people who play PvP will get steamrolled in DoA or UW - heck, possibly even Sorrow's Furnace - without some form of "dedication" "input" or "skill" (I am not including gimmick builds, which exist in PvP in equal numbers as PvE).

I wouldn't say so casually that PvP is the "harder" aspect of GW. PvE could easily be made to be harder than any PvP format possible, and without the use of "wtf high numbers" that Linsey Murdock loves to put in (thankfully we now have John Stumme who is more focused on entertainment than "high numbers" - especially for PvE).

I'll have to say that I agree with this - except for that this is where CB is at (do note that you say that CB was brought down to PvE level because all the PvP'ers left. This may not be solely due to CBs change but rather due to the fact that many people get tired of the... to put it bluntly, morons who don't get what to do. I expect to see a great decrease in this once the quests appear).

I would love to see some new casual formats - year round formats - that help do this. Along with that, some new PvE that would require more thought than "which gimmick build should I bring?" - or changes to the festival PvP formats (CB, snowball, DA) to promote some change into PvP from PvE - and vice versa.

CB isn't meant to be 1v1. Nothing is. And as I must say again: each build has its pros and cons. Some builds are stronger against others, some are equal, and some are weaker.

I have to say that the level of enjoyment I got out of Costume Brawl this year is significantly less than last year's.

It isn't meant to be 1v1 but it happens more often than not thanks to players not understanding the format.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That is all

the key word you are using here is "some", how much is that? minimal? barely? sufficient? and then later on you switch it to "much more"?

no doubt everywhere you go u need to make sound decisions, but the fact that one team loses in the big brawl will mean that this team will almost never be able to come back, if the other team keeps pressing on the kill streak. this almost always happen, because 99% of the people have no idea wtf "time kill" is, and just get rolled when they charge one by one into the mob. very rarely are teams able to come back from that; it literally takes some miracle to have teammates who know how to recover from this or do something extraordinary to make a comeback.

the criticism i have for this map is precisely this: that this map, along with the norn map rewards exactly this type of brainless brawling. that once a brawl in the start is done, you can pretty much tell who wins, though significantly more so the case in the former. in other words, this completely undermines any kind of strategic play. and i can say this: an effort by one exp player will most certainly not suffice in carrying the team to victory.

yes, the map is small and easy to go c space spam, even you point that out. if that is so, then how exactly is that compatible with your immediate claim that it is "much more thinking-needed"? you are contradicting yourself here. honestly even if two skilled teams were to play eachother on this map, it makes no difference to when two noob teams play on it. because it will be an all out brawl in both cases.

I'm sorry but if you honestly think DoA/UW/SF is out of reach to PvPers you need to not talk about things you don't know. That may come off as rude, but someone needs to tell you.

That's most certainly not the case. Just as one example, the first group to ever kill Urgoz was comprised of famous members of the GvG community.

Only reason being that back in 2006 strict high-end PvE guilds were non-existant or merely crawling. I do agree that in its beginnings, GW was a primairily PvP game - or at least much more than now. Thus PvP guilds were organised since the very beginning, had players that know each other, were much more into teamplay.
Now, with the current rusty division of PvP/PvE grindfest, Konig's argument still stands. A high-end PvP guild that does nothing outside controlling Halls would have trouble with the current UW without enough reconnaissance, experienced failures and polishing their builds for Nth time.

I think most people would disagree with what you consider to be a high end PvP guild.

Trust me...pvp'ers don't care about PvE elite missions. So, if you ask a pvp player what's DOA, he wouldn't know, but wait...he will be using his tormented shield for show anyway. Most pvp players did not even finish the game, let alone play high-end content. The only elite area they know is underworld because everyone knows thats where ectos mostly come from. Seriously, the knowledge of pvp players make me laugh. They may have plenty of experience in pvp style formats but honestly, they don't give a shit what happens to pve universe or the gw lore.

The best part is they are very pissed about HOM being mostly PvE oriented. I guess they got the rod up their *fill in the blanks*

The PvE vs PvP arguement isnt even valid. If your any good, your probably good at both. You guys act like its a different game. Its not, the same mechanics and tactics apply. They both take experience and a well rounded knowledge of game mechanics to be any good. And once you get to the highend side of either, there are pricks everywhere.

Anyway, I'm going to go do some CB. Its really fun now that each match is random. Titties.

Glad someone else notices the complete overkill that was going on as a substitute for real difficulty. Looking forward to seeing how having Mr. Stumme at the wheel plays out from here on in. CB changes were pretty bold if not controversial but at least somebody is willing to take the risk.

I choked on my coffee laughing when I read post #2 in that thread. For as unhappy as PvPers seem to be with their side of the game I'd say most PvEers are the same way with theirs at this point. It got turned from wow this is hard nobody will ever win to an e-sport with <30 minute clear times for everything or gtfo. Not really a healthy game at either end of that spectrum in my opinion.

i think a large number of HA players are exactly like that, but i also think anet don't object at all to this mentality, otherwise certain op builds would be nerfed to oblivion

when i tried CB for the first time yesterday a thought of perhaps these wammo mentaility rushers are all anet devs 'pvping' for the first time

(actual photo of john stumme)

O RLY? Funny you should mention that....

My Guild used to only play in high-end GvG for ~3 years and has recently come back to finish off our HoM. Just last night we beat all of Domain of Anguish with a random build not found on PvX, no consumables and just hitting c + space for a few hours. Oh and the previous weekend we did Urgoz and the Deep with the same setup.

So yeah, you might wanna stop generalizing things. PvE isn't as "hard" as you make it seem so stop getting such a big head. Especially after you add all those consumables and PvE-only skills. Back when Te beat Urgoz, both things did not exist.

See above.

Perhaps you mean a current high-end PvP Guild and maybe things have changed since then, but this type of PvE "Elitist"(Oh my God that word!) is ridiculous. I seem to also recall a group consisting of mostly rawr players finishing "Domain of Anguish" in what was then the fastest clear time (~2 hours or so?).

Then again, you did qualify your statement with "does nothing outside of controlling Halls," but that's also a bit of a generalizing statement. Many high-end PvP Guilds still do PvE or at least some of their members do.

This type of PvE elitist attitude is laughable (especially when considering the irony that PvE'ers always call PvP'ers elitist). I'd suggest you stop being full of yourself. After all, you're only beating a scripted AI with exploits, consumables and skills specifically designed to be OP.

Seriously, why does either side feel so superior to the other? It's like you're in middle school or something.

And before anyone tries to say something, his guild isn't a one in a million situation. Hell when I was only in about rank 500 play my GvG roster could do anything in PvE we wanted with no problem at all, normal mode or hard mode. I know for a fact that [rawr] used to PvE quite a bit together and had no problems. People honestly believe being able to beat stagnant AI is harder then living, thinking, ever changing real people? I guarantee you a top PvP guild can do any PvE content within a couple tries, but your top PvE guilds won't be able to place in the top 16 of an mAT within a year.

I hate these PvE vs PvP arguments, but that post Konig made was just so ignorant and completely wrong.

You're right. I still talk to some of them outside of the game and a non-trivial number of them have had their GWAMM title for almost two years now.

Randomizing of teams FTW, keeps things fair. Syncers can burn in hell. Yeah... I don't care for win streaks

All professions seem fairly balanced (from what I've seen), so no complains from me. The Warrior bar plays pretty well. Nothing fancy or overpowered, but it does the job well.

I think it's just fine.

just to quote myself from the other cb thread, i think this sums up a fair bit of my arguments against this update:

Team scramble is garbage. Throw that shit out.

The groups I have been playing with have focused on other things than just mindlessly killing stuff... sure, some do, but at least half of the groups I've been playing with do cap and/or stay together.

what do u mean by cap and/or stay together? capping in a mob? isnt that essentially what i said?

i dont want to get into the details of exact strategies, but let me say this: in terms of strategy in cb, there really is no set way to generalize how it should be done. capping does not always do the job for winning, and neither does staying together. mindlessly killing stuff can some times work, but certainly not in many cases.

the point i am making in 1 in my post is that the majority players already have a set idea of how exactly every game should be played. so, for example, the most common one is "cap center and stay there". it works in some cases but not all. but a lot of players are so convinced in its infallibility that they think this is the only, and best, way to win a game, which is not true. so, if i am telling them to cap the side shrines on the norn map, most of the responses are dismissal, and there almost always are people who suicide in the middle despite numerous advices offered to them. which shows how hard it is to change their opinion on this.

Some merely means a number, not a small number. I do not contradict myself. WHile it is easier to get into mindless brawls, it also makes it more important to figure out how to avoid mindless brawls.

I never said all, do note that. I also took out the usage of gimmick, as I said.

Without knowing what's in the area, you won't stand a chance except through pure luck. This goes for anyone. Same with going into PvP matches - you need to know what map and what format that map utilizes before the match starts. You cannot prepare counters to what other people bring, but you can bring counters to the more popular builds.

If I go into DoA prepared and knowledgeable of the area, and if I go into HA prepared and knowledgeable of the maps - with equally prepared and organized teams, I will, more or less, have equal standings.

That was then, I'm talking about now. And do note I never said it would be impossible to beat something.

High-end PvP guilds, as I always hear being referred to, are guilds which focus on HA and GvG. If a PvP guild that does nothing but these suddenly go "let's do Urgoz!" thinking it's the same as PvP, they'll get slaughtered.

Firstly, I'm not saying PvE is hard, I'm saying that it has an equal difficulty to PvP'ers - especially for those who do not have experience in what they're doing. Tell me, with your random build c spacing trick, how many knew what they were doing? How many people had targets? Do you have proof that the only thing you did was c+space? I doubt it.

I'm not the one with the big head, elitists are. And Elitists exist in both sides. I merely say that the "difficulty" of the sides are closer than people tend to think.

I agree that consumables and PvE-only skills make it easier, but I'm talking about taking those out of the equation - like I said the removal of gimmicks.

To all of you: Please stop making it seem like I'm trying to say PvE is harder than PvP. It isn't. They're on par - both in importance and difficulty. You need to know what you're going into, you need to be able to communicate with your team (or in the case of using h/h - like HB did - learn how to control the AI to your advantage), and you need to have good builds, in order to succeed. If you say otherwise, then you're no worse than what you're saying I am.

Hell no, and don't pretend it is. Killing AI, no matter how difficult, no matter how much coordination you require doesn't match up to any form of PvP. They do require different skills but PvP requires skills above and beyond those you develop from PvE.

Also no one who extensively PvPs has not extensively PvEd. People like shiny stuff.

I was skeptical about the randomization in CB. But after playing several hours I have to say that this is a very nice implementation. Nicely done!

Even if you have little experience with PvE (like many of my Guildmates), it's not that hard to realize the core concepts of PvE and what you need to do to win efficiently:

1) Have a tank to absorb the majority of damage so it's isolated and easier to heal.

2) Group things up because the AI is retarded and then use AoE to kill it quickly and efficiently.

3) Adhere to a standard Frontline, Midline and Backline, just like in PvP.

For most PvE you really only need to do 1 and 2 and you'll probably win since the AI is not smart enough to adapt. Even in HM.

As for my own group, of course we call targets. Do you think target calling isn't done in PvP? If anything, it's significantly simpler in PvE in that you target call the healers first, then the casters and lastly the physicals (in general not always). It seems obvious in both formats that you want to either take out the one preventing the most damage (i.e. healing) or the one doing the most damage to your party (i.e. casters). I don't think that requires any special PvE knowledge. I imagine that is what you would in a real situation when presented with a problem (i.e. tackle what is giving you the most trouble, etc.). All we did is pretty much what I just described and it wasn't all that difficult. Even without consumables.

I don't understand how your rebuttal is "how many of them knew what they were doing?" Well obviously all of them. It doesn't take a genius to realize the above things or at a minimum to follow orders or called targets. Are you trying to say these basic principles are really all that difficult for competent PvP players to pick up? I think you underestimate the competence of these players.

What you're misstating is overall game competence. There are incompetent players in both PvE and PvP, but if you are a competent player, chances are you have the potential to do well in either format just by following directions or in the above case, doing rather obvious things. It's the same in pretty much any MMO's PvE.

@dwchang - from your post above i got the strong impression that both PvP and PvE sides of GW are very similar, not to even say the very same. Oh, wait, it's the same game after all...
I recently got into playing RA - had a total of 9 glad points up to this moment, made back in TA, so you can call me complete PvP noob. Still, after several hours i made it up to 25 consecs a few times and got praised for playing my class well, even though it were my very first steps there. I know the strict PvP community often argues if RA is fully eligible as 'trve uber kvlt PvP format', but i know enough people who support this arena to claim it really is standard GW PvP.
The whole post made just to point out that, basing on dwchang's post above, a strict PvPer can hop into PvE as easily as a strict PvEr into PvP. If you know the general idea and use your brain cells sometimes, all you need more is raw experience, aka play time. Still, without said experience most people - and by that i mean roughly 95% - get steamrolled at the very first steps/tries, often getting annoyed and leaving the format (be it RA or UW).

it is not more important, because the 2 3shrine maps do not reward avoiding mindless brawls as much as it should. as a matter of fact, im inclined to say that there is little point in avoiding it. because at one point or the other in the start you will have to go into a brawl, regardless of how u cap or try to avoid it. and, under this format, that brawl pretty much determines the game. this is bad because it give the impression that cb is just like ra, and that mob fights are the only way to win, which is the majority's view. even if you try to do some tactics you still get the teammates who does not go with that, and i can tell that u experienced it too:

GW is not soley about the"trinity". There are many others ways to roll PvE than this, many more effective. This shows your lack of knowledge of PvE sorry to say. While it might work....far from optimal in most cases.

this pretty much....

competition definitely got stronger in each successive CB matchup (until ya get sent back to the outpost) and that's good enough.

Dwchang isn't correct when he says a tank is necessary. Unless he means putting some enchantments on the first guy to go into a mob, before everyone else.

I mostly PVE, but I followed PVP on obs a lot two three years ago. I think PVP is much harder to win, and it's also harder to know why you lose when you do.

@dwchang and all PvP people:

Your comments how PvE is so easy with consumables and all and PvP players can do PvE anyday is so much full of lolz. My guild used to do DoA HM full clears just before EOTN came out and it took us ton of coordination in vent to clear it. We failed often, but the satisfaction was immense having cleared a very tough area. I challenge a top PvP guild to try and do it today, without any consumables, even though a number of skills are so much better now that they were 3+ years ago. Bring it on and show me proof!

Do not give me the BS that PvP is much harder than PvE. You can't make comparisons between the two formats about dificulty when they have different objectives. For example, if an average PvP Joe plays PvE with some standard hero bars in NM, he will do extremely well. However, he might have trouble when he jumps in HM and it will take some time and optimization to figure things out. Similarly, an average PvEr who jumps into HA will lose with the random teams, unless he is carried by a friend who PvPs regularly and teaches him the 'trade' (aka tactics). Once he has basic knowledge, PvP will appear easy. So, stop this BS that PvP is hard. If one plays PvP for some time, learns the standard bars, team builds, rules of engagement, and map tactics, PvP will appear easy and even fun.

And when you talk about elitists, they exist on both sides. Truely, there are a number of PvE people who would really love to PvP in HA, but are barred from joining matches due to the so called r6+ only (some teams require even higher). Elitists don't allow new people to learn. But let me ask you this, how many of these so called 'PVP elitists' played each and every profession fully without having to resort to "standard" bars developed by others. Very very few! So, when they say they are skilled with a class, it's laughable, because they probably played only know 5% of all the skills of that class. The remaining 95%, they never need to use and have no idea of.

Did you see me put "this is the only way to PvE" or anything? No. I simply said you could conquer most PvE areas (including supposed "elite" areas) by following these simple concepts that are in pretty much any MMO and you ignore that and simply go "WELL THAT'S NOT THE BEST WAY YOU PvE NOOB! LOLOLOLOL" I'm sorry that does not meet your high standards oh great PvE Master! What did I forget to mention things like an Imbagon or Spirit Spammer? Oh how about minion masters or discord? Is this supposedly "forbidden knowledge" we PvPers couldn't possibly comprehend? OH NOES!

If anything I was trying to illustrate how simple it is to "win" at PvE and that it doesn't require this massive amount of dedication and skill people seem to imply. Many times (in this very thread) people go on and on about how PvP'ers can't PvE and I am simply providing a counter example that completely refutes this retarded and arrogant claim. You can conquer these "elite" areas by simply not being an idiot so many of you need to get off your high horses. PvE isn't hard. At all. So get over yourselves.

I also love how you try to use this opportunity to slam players who don't have as much "knowledge" as you. I'm sorry, we didn't feel like running a SC build with consumables or go read webpages detailing step by step how to do things the "best way." Frankly I don't find that "skillful" at all. That's taking advantage of someone else's knowledge and duplicating it. How does that take any actual talent when your opponent is a scripted AI and someone tells you what to bring?

Again, I am simply refuting the (retarded) claim that PvP players can't tackle PvE successfully. I (and others) have provided sufficient evidence completely contrary to it and no one has refuted it other than using it as an opportunity to either bash someone or elevate themselves. I'm pretty sure there are more PvP players who are able to conquer PvE than the reverse.

In any case, people talk about how arrogant and elitist PvP'ers are, but if anything all I've learned from these threads is that a *minority* of PvE'ers are also full of themselves. So in conclusion, please "enlighten" me and the other "ignorant" PvP masses with your knowledge oh great PvE Master!

I didn't specify since I didn't think it was necessary for me to literally walk you step by step on how I PvE in a thread about PvP. Most would have found it useless. What you say is also true or in some cases and in others you could have an actual boring as hell tank build where someone just stands there and doesn't have any fun. In short, I didn't feel it was necessary to go into such detail about how I PvE since it was irrelevant to the point I was refuting.

Not that I can provide proof, but I actually beat DoA with my Guildies a little bit after it was released and the only reason we're redoing it is because A.net did not retroactively give credit. Again, no proof so you'll either have to believe me or not. Also I'm pretty sure there's a post somewhere on these forums of a rawr group beating it in HM and setting the record (at the time).

At the same time, I find such a "challenge" laughable. The fact you (and others) are SO insulted that PvP'ers are saying PvE isn't that hard is...laughable. Does it hurt your honor or something that others can conquer the same thing as you? Who gives a shit? It's just a game and quite frankly to be successful at it, it doesn't require that much skill.

That isn't to say there aren't players who are talented, but again, to simply "succeed" in PvE, you don't need to be that good. And yes, I'm sure there are more efficient ways to go about doing it. I am simply refuting the blanket statement that PvP'ers can't tackle "elite" PvE areas.

Uhm...I've been saying that for quite a few replies now so you're preaching to the choir. It's not the PvP'ers claiming there isn't elitism. It's the PvE'ers making it seem like their shit don't stink too.

After reading the multiple thread discussion on this random shuffle situation... it seems to me most of the complaints are based on player competence....and the inability to streak with a competent team....getting rid of the shuffle won't make people more competent... it will just allow randomly or synced competent teams to roll over the inexperienced which is clear that ANet is trying to eliminate....

Just like the previous format, if you get a fail team you lose...So fail teams are not a reason to eliminate the new format... Point allocation per win was increased to replace streaking... the only thing you don't get now is win streaks... your just going to have to take em where you can get them or stop playing.

Not really

Let's take example for the High end area.

DoA, there are some split, if you want time it under 40-50 min, but the core is basic a tank and spank.

FoWSc, same above. You have 2 assassin who can solo stuff where they can but for everything else is tank and spank.

DeepSc / urgoz sc. Tank and spank if you want get it under 30-20 min.

Even In UW there are some part of tank and spank.

Now the majority of pve, you might not be noticing it because most of time you wont have enough people to settle up a decent tank and spank. But i assure you it's the most efficient.

During SS/LB double point weekend we set up a tank and spank group for it. It goes this way :

1) tank (SF normally) run in aggro all he can and ball up the group, it take about 15-20 second.
The spiker do the needed preparation.
2) the spike, who normally take 1-2 second.

So in 22-25 second you killed 3-4 group of enemy(more if you find yourself in a situation where many enemy patrol overlap).
I hardly think any other way can be more efficient.

Even in the regular playing you use spirits, minions, or physical frontliners (= tanks) and caster damage, either in the form of "direct" damage (spells, hexes), or "indirect" damage (physical buffing). You always want your squishies not to be hit by HM monsters. I'm wondering what are these more effective ways to play PvE without having somone in the frontline absorbing the loads of damage incoming, and someone else out of monsters' reach to nuke them off. Maybe you can try using a high defensive setup, like lots of EMos bonders, or communing rits spamming shelter and union, or massive shutdown like a panic mesmer, so to let monsters hit the casters, but is it really more effective than the previous solutions? I doubt it.

This is required in PvE HM because monsters hit so hard. PvP foes don't, so you can deal with a enemy warrior getting at you simply kiting back, trying to have him overextended. In PvE HM kiting or even pre-kiting a foe which runs faster than you will simply mean to help him killing you triggering his criticals, so you need someone to drive the monsters' attention away from you, unless you are in some god mode, or you are farming them .