Rarity - Staff Skins - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Captain Krompdown

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

The furious fist of Kromp is upon you.

[PhD]; Brave and Manly Leader

31 Jan 2011 at 07:25 - 81

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pleikki

Well my statictics are based on drops me & my friends had.

Personally overall like 20/10 ones even. had 3-4 dragons. 0 plats and 0 Bo's

And had way more dragons dropping then bo/plat, and for the skins the change it being 20/20 should be same. as they drop for same attris etc.

Just guess for dragon staffs most ppl just keep em. when ppl rather sell bo/plat..

Tho good bo's are way more common then dragon for sure. AS Bo's quite easyly farmable when plat & dragon aren that easy, even tho posible

So, then, since your stats were based on drops, I'm assuming you have a few 20/20 dragons to show?

I hope you don't take this personally, but I'm not convinced by your argument that the 20/20 dragon staves must be around but that they haven't come to light because people keep them. You said your stats are based on drops but then you say that the 20/20 dragon staves exist but that your evidence is invisible.

Huh?

Pleikki

WTB q8 15^50 Weapons!

Join Date: Nov 2006

???oo ???ugs ???lan [?????????]

31 Jan 2011 at 11:55 - 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Krompdown

So, then, since your stats were based on drops, I'm assuming you have a few 20/20 dragons to show?

I hope you don't take this personally, but I'm not convinced by your argument that the 20/20 dragon staves must be around but that they haven't come to light because people keep them. You said your stats are based on drops but then you say that the 20/20 dragon staves exist but that your evidence is invisible.

Huh?

No, as i said i never had any of the skins 20/20 drop duh, I just explained

Quote:

And had way more dragons dropping then bo/plat, and for the skins the change it being 20/20 should be same. as they drop for same attris etc.

so due that, im thinking there should be as much or more 20/20 dragons. as bo's plats excisting

Yawgmoth

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2005

31 Jan 2011 at 15:53 - 83

For every one oldschool multiprofession staff there's exactly the same chance to drop with 20/20 mod of that same attribute. So simply the rarity of 20/20 ones is directly proportional to the rarity of any gold max staves of that skin.

Pleikki

WTB q8 15^50 Weapons!

Join Date: Nov 2006

???oo ???ugs ???lan [?????????]

31 Jan 2011 at 16:01 - 84

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

For every one oldschool multiprofession staff there's exactly the same chance to drop with 20/20 mod of that same attribute. So simply the rarity of 20/20 ones is directly proportional to the rarity of any gold max staves of that skin.

Thanks for that, just as i though :9

Captain Krompdown

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

The furious fist of Kromp is upon you.

[PhD]; Brave and Manly Leader

01 Feb 2011 at 01:43 - 85

Waiting to see the staves.

You can hypothesize and 'duh' until you turn blue (or at least until you hit puberty). Until we see the staves, you simply have no evidence to back up your statements. Sorry about that.

Pleikki

WTB q8 15^50 Weapons!

Join Date: Nov 2006

???oo ???ugs ???lan [?????????]

01 Feb 2011 at 05:26 - 86

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Krompdown

Waiting to see the staves.

You can hypothesize and 'duh' until you turn blue (or at least until you hit puberty). Until we see the staves, you simply have no evidence to back up your statements. Sorry about that.

Well from now on i will screen every dragon/bo/plat staff drop i guess and see how many of each i get ^^

expugnare

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Houston, TX

The Academy [PhD]

E/A

01 Feb 2011 at 05:57 - 87

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Krompdown

Waiting to see the staves.
(or at least until you hit puberty).

That was rather ad hominem. O.o

Captain Krompdown

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

The furious fist of Kromp is upon you.

[PhD]; Brave and Manly Leader

01 Feb 2011 at 08:50 - 88

Quote:

Originally Posted by expugnare

That was rather ad hominem. O.o

You neglected to quote the reason for my comment. Pleikki's response (which included a 'duh') was rather 3rd grade.

As for the topic itself, there are perfectly good examples of certain staves being very rare in reality, even though such rarity makes no sense according to the rules that people have supposedly discovered about the loot system.

For example, consider a req 9 20/20 blood shadow staff. Shadow staves are not especially rare. Req 9 20/10 shadow staves are not hard to find and they do come in blood req. The 20/20 version, however, has eluded the grasp of a prominent poster on this thread. Despite owning a req9 20/20 death and req 9 20/20 curses, this person (who I'm sure will not name him/herself) gave up on completing the set (and dismantled it) because of the sheer impossibility of finding the 20/20 blood version.

Pleikki

WTB q8 15^50 Weapons!

Join Date: Nov 2006

???oo ???ugs ???lan [?????????]

01 Feb 2011 at 12:26 - 89

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Krompdown

You neglected to quote the reason for my comment. Pleikki's response (which included a 'duh') was rather 3rd grade.

As for the topic itself, there are perfectly good examples of certain staves being very rare in reality, even though such rarity makes no sense according to the rules that people have supposedly discovered about the loot system.

For example, consider a req 9 20/20 blood shadow staff. Shadow staves are not especially rare. Req 9 20/10 shadow staves are not hard to find and they do come in blood req. The 20/20 version, however, has eluded the grasp of a prominent poster on this thread. Despite owning a req9 20/20 death and req 9 20/20 curses, this person (who I'm sure will not name him/herself) gave up on completing the set (and dismantled it) because of the sheer impossibility of finding the 20/20 blood version.

Aye that was me, atleast i had curse and death but no blood and sold em, Tho i didnt rly seek Blood one, never even tried spamming/making thread for one. But What does that prove? That Getting specific attri 20/20 might be rare, but not any attri 20/20? And again. "Duh!"

Captain Krompdown

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

The furious fist of Kromp is upon you.

[PhD]; Brave and Manly Leader

01 Feb 2011 at 17:08 - 90

Well, for one, it proves that rarity of skin does not directly predict rarity of specific combinations of mods. That was the premise upon which you drew your conclusions regarding the supposed non-rarity of 20/20 dragon staves.

I know I'm asking you to do a lot of thinking here, but I was really expecting better than this from you:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pleikki

...asdklsdlkjs... And again. "Duh!"

My bad for having a conversation with Pleikki.

You've just proven more than I ever could've hoped to prove.

Bye.

Tommy's

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2006

[Bone]

Mo/

01 Feb 2011 at 20:06 - 91

Something Mr. Captain Krompdown seems to forget while using the fact that Pleikki never had a 20/20 blood shadowstaff, but did have a 20/20 death and curses one, is considering how much effort said Pleikki had to put in finding the death and curses one. I have no idea if this was a hard effort, but its deffinatly something that should be considered if you want to jump to conclusions from this. And perhabs we should bring up standard deviation, to conclude that you can't draw conclusions on a single deviating attribute.

That said, I must conclude Captain Krompdown is asking for impossible prove. Pleikki, nor me for that matter, nor any other regular guildwarsplayer, can't prove anything. Simply because you cannot draw conclusions from the few screenshots you can collect, you can always blame it on an exceptional situation. The only one who could possibly shed light on it, is Anet itself. So don't ask for the impossible.

Captain Krompdown

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

The furious fist of Kromp is upon you.

[PhD]; Brave and Manly Leader

01 Feb 2011 at 20:35 - 92

Then what are we asking for when we start threads like this? If proof is impossible, then a meaningful answer is impossible and the thread is pointless. Pleikki can say that it's seen more dragons than plats. I've spent just as much time (probably more) shopping for nice staves and I've seen far more 20/20 plats than dragons. I've seen people with 20/20 plats for sale and I've seen people with 20/20 plats that aren't for sale. As for dragons, I own every single one I've ever seen except for one. For me -- based on my considerable experience in the marketplace -- the conclusion is obvious.

As for 90% of what you just said, I'm going to ignore it because I think it will send us down rabbit holes that don't need to be explored.

I'm also going to sign off on this thread. You can go back to saying whatever you'd like (and for whatever reasons you're saying it). Sayonara.

Tommy's

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2006

[Bone]

Mo/

01 Feb 2011 at 20:53 - 93

I think this respond won't be without a use, because I have a feeling your untameable arrogance will force you to read this anyway..

As far as my concerns go, this thread is to make certain things more plausible to come to an agreement. And to pass the time.

Then I would like to say that I never took your conclusions into doubt, I was just trying to point out that others may have different insights, and that prove is impossible, so you should not be asking for it. Theories can live next to eachother. Thats what they are theories for.

Sayonara

Bright Star Shine

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2009

Belgium

Club of a Thousand Pandas [LOD???]

E/

01 Feb 2011 at 21:28 - 94

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy's

Theories can live next to eachother. Thats what they are theories for.

I think there are many religions that will disagree with you, but you are right, this entire discussion made this thread a bit disappointing..

Tommy's

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2006

[Bone]

Mo/

01 Feb 2011 at 21:36 - 95

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

I think there are many religions that will disagree with you, but you are right, this entire discussion made this thread a bit disappointing..

Thats because relegions give another definition to theory then sience does

For example christians in general find that christianity can't live next to Darwinism, yet Darwinism never excluded a god. Its because one is a religion other is science, though both are only hypothesises.

Cleavage

Worlds Hexiest Man

Join Date: Jun 2006

[TRDR]

01 Feb 2011 at 21:42 - 96

Most high end traders who have been around for awhile know what the other traders need for their collections and know that if they find an item the other trader needs it automatically becomes much more valuable than if the trader found it themselves. The idea is to use that item to trade towards something they need which the other trader owns. With that being said, high end old school traders always have their eyes open for certain items and information is always shared.

Kromp based his argument off years of knowledge and investigations. Kromp is right.
Pleikkis argument is based of findings that are stacked to support his personal opinion. Im not saying Pleikki doesnt know what he is talking about. He has some knowledge but in this situation he needs to accept the research and accept that he is wrong.

salvatore888

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

WTB 20/20 Dragon Staves|prenerf Dragon Staves

01 Feb 2011 at 23:49 - 97

Ok guys , just my two cents here...
Everything i will write in this post is in favor of the thread's initial purpose and only.
Last two years , i have bought a countless amount of unidentified bo+dragon+platinum staves.
Calculating roughly , i can say i've bought and id'ed like 1500 staves of these three skins in total.

From this amount , 15k have been bought from halcyon job farmers , and they were such staves in a 1:10 ratio calculating really conservatively.
It may have been more than 1500(and yes , i have merched over 10k pairs of daggers) . I know , it's insane-and irrelevant , too , obviously.

In the meanwhile , I ran over 10k chests , but the droprate of these skins was so low , i won't even bother adding to the results.
Just for the history , only one decent staff from the chestruns was a 20/19 dragon(one of the 5 indicated below).

Judging by overall amount of staves i bought , most were bo's and then platinums and last were dragons . So , based on my own research , rarest to drop are dragons , then platinums , and then bo's.

I will include 20/19s in the results , too , as it's really rare to find matching attributes. Just got a little over a dozen of all three skins in total....

In a total , i got

2 * 20/20 bo staves

1* 20/20 dragon staff

0* 20/20 platinum staves
no image , obviously...

Now , let's see the 20/19 results

6* 20/19 bo staves

6* 20/19 platinum staves

missing one from the pic here , a q9 20/19 death that i sold few days ago

6* 20/19 Dragon Staves

Missing a q13 spawn 20/19 restoration , couldn't find it atm.

And i'm not counting all the spawn-channeling , spawn-communing ,smite-prot etc "20/20"s , a lot of ppl consider them as 20/20s , but i don't. I got plenty of those , especially dragons , but i don't count them.

Only mix of attributes there is in the results is divine-heal or divine-prot for obvious reasons.
I only listed staves that i got by buying unids( equals droprate) and not 20/20staves of each skin i own , of course.

So , however large my experiment pool is , can it really give any answers?

There is a definite answer.

20/20 in any of these skins is really , really rare.
20/19 happens like 5-6 times more.
So , imo there's like a 1% chance one of these staves to be 20/19,
and possibly 0.2% chance to be 20/20.

When we are talking about such small odds , which are reapplied everytime an identification takes place , we can't talk about numbers / rarity in 100% safety.

If one skin has 0.4% chance and another 0.3% , difference is almost insignificant.

Just my two cents and let's get back to the topic people.
Such a nice thread here , let's not mess it up.

Peace!

Captain Krompdown

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

The furious fist of Kromp is upon you.

[PhD]; Brave and Manly Leader

02 Feb 2011 at 02:35 - 98

Quote:

Originally Posted by salvatore888

Last two years , i have bought a countless amount of unidentified bo+dragon+platinum staves.
Calculating roughly , i can say i've bought and id'ed like 1500 staves of these three skins in total.

Judging by overall amount of staves i bought , most were bo's and then platinums and last were dragons . So , based on my own research , rarest to drop are dragons , then platinums , and then bo's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleavage

Kromp based his argument off years of knowledge and investigations. Kromp is right.
Pleikkis argument is based of findings that are stacked to support his personal opinion. Im not saying Pleikki doesnt know what he is talking about. He has some knowledge but in this situation he needs to accept the research and accept that he is wrong.

QFT

I'm glad that two experienced players who actually know what they're talking about have decided to chime in.

To everyone else: Enjoy your thread.

expugnare

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Houston, TX

The Academy [PhD]

E/A

02 Feb 2011 at 03:42 - 99

Quote:

Originally Posted by salvatore888

Ok guys , just my two cents here...

If one skin has 0.4% chance and another 0.3% , difference is almost insignificant.

Quoted for truth. Dragons, Bo's and Plats are all RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing rare. If you have a 20/20 with a nice req of any of these, consider yourself lucky.

That is all. : )

Lithril Ashwalker

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2008

Alabama

A/

16 Aug 2011 at 15:18 - 100

i had a screenshot of one of my old staves, couldnt find ANYthing on guild wars wiki about it(3 days of searching) though there was a WAND with armor penetration 10%. i had a air staff with armor penetration 10%. i will post on here. no idea wtf happened to it

there it is

thought it was from this quest however http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_S...f_Piken_Square

the staff on THAT quest is 10/10...this one...is 10/5

Lithril Ashwalker

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2008

Alabama

A/

16 Aug 2011 at 16:46 - 101

check on page 5 at the bottom. apparently no one ever seen that staff before...and i cant find it on ANY of my accounts. i could have sold it for who knows how much...

Matrix Arcade

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2008

???oo ???ugs ???lan [?????????]

16 Aug 2011 at 19:33 - 102

It was probably an older version of the same quest-reward.. meaning it might fetch a couple K (like the 5-7 Long Sword with the crystalline skin I've seen). Nothing extremely amazing.

expugnare

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Houston, TX

The Academy [PhD]

E/A

16 Aug 2011 at 19:37 - 103

Speaking of rare staff skins--what was the last time someone saw a 20 20 fire dragon?

I've been guruing this diligently, even PMed a couple people, and apparently the last one around here was like 2009.

Are they just impossible to find?

carnage-runner

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Aug 2006

Canada, B.C. Vancouver. aka.. amazing.

[Sith]

W/Me

16 Aug 2011 at 20:21 - 104

Quote:

Originally Posted by expugnare

Speaking of rare staff skins--what was the last time someone saw a 20 20 fire dragon?

I've been guruing this diligently, even PMed a couple people, and apparently the last one around here was like 2009.

Are they just impossible to find?

"Nothing" is impossible to find. I say "nothing" because obviously some things are, but that thing is obviously in existence and is likely around. Take, for example, my 3.5 year hunt for r8 15^50 jittes. I discovered a total of 4 ( on active accounts! and not custo'd). 1 part of a set, not trading, 2 simply refused to sell, and a 4th that i had seen change hands but couldn't find out where to. I gave up. Then 3 turned up out of nowhere in kamadan.

Moral of the story. Shit is stupid, weapons that are extremely rare, and or sought after, eventually turn up.

P.S. Dragons> all in rarity. Raven>all in awesomeness.

Coast

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

Belgium

Whats Going On [sup]

Mo/

16 Aug 2011 at 21:40 - 105

do req8+5energy max dmg salient daggers and sai excist? never seen any before(last ones I need to find for full collection)

Jan Breydel

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2006

Musscles From Brussels

Mo/R

16 Aug 2011 at 22:35 - 106

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnage-runner

Raven>all in awesomeness.

quote for truth.

Now ofc this would be a pointless post if I didn't have something to disagree with! ( especially as disagreeing seems to be the main topic of this thread)

So here it goes: Every foe that drops dragon staves also drops plat and bo.
personal experience with the drop scales of dragondroppers (<- self made words ftw) Tells me that from chests, dragon staff drops the most, but from farming bo staff drops the most. This also means that I believe plat staff is the rarest of these 3 (not rarest of all, explanation below). And yes, I do believe that chest loot scales do not necessarily reflect those gained from farming.

However the bo staff also drops max from quite some HM foes on starter island, which makes em more common than the others.

So overall: Plat>dragon>bo. (Note I am not in any way saying that this is correct, its just how I believe it is)

Disagreement No. 2: In what universe is the uninscr orrish staff 'semi rare'.
Seriously a tier 6 should be made just for this staff, its so incredibly incredibly rare its just mindblowing. Out of all my years gw, over 15K proph chests I got a total of 1 (!) orrish staves, and it dropped from killing a old ascalon gargoyle in HM. Sure the chances of getting it 20/20 might be higher than those of plat/dragon/bo because its a single attrib staff. But still when you look solely at the chances of getting one dropped, its definitely the rarest of all.

[rant] Its all a big conspiracy of those canthan skin lovers with their tiranny of bo,dragon and plat

. But it ends here! because the rarest(orrish) is proph and the most awesome(raven) is proph as well! [/rant]

superraptors

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Dec 2008

W/

17 Aug 2011 at 03:05 - 107

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan Breydel

quote for truth.

Now ofc this would be a pointless post if I didn't have something to disagree with! ( especially as disagreeing seems to be the main topic of this thread)

So here it goes: Every foe that drops dragon staves also drops plat and bo.
personal experience with the drop scales of dragondroppers (<- self made words ftw) Tells me that from chests, dragon staff drops the most, but from farming bo staff drops the most. This also means that I believe plat staff is the rarest of these 3 (not rarest of all, explanation below). And yes, I do believe that chest loot scales do not necessarily reflect those gained from farming.

However the bo staff also drops max from quite some HM foes on starter items, which makes em more common than the others.

So overall: Plat>dragon>bo. (Note I am not in any way saying that this is correct, its just how I believe it is)

Disagreement No. 2: In what universe is the uninscr orrish staff 'semi rare'.
Seriously a tier 6 should be made just for this staff, its so incredibly incredibly rare its just mindblowing. Out of all my years gw, over 15K proph chests I got a total of 1 (!) orrish staves, and it dropped from killing a old ascalon gargoyle in HM. Sure the chances of getting it 20/20 might be higher than those of plat/dragon/bo because its a single attrib staff. But still when you look solely at the chances of getting one dropped, its definitely the rarest of all.

[rant] Its all a big conspiracy of those canthan skin lovers with their tiranny of bo,dragon and plat

. But it ends here! because the rarest(orrish) is proph and the most awesome(raven) is proph as well! [/rant]

orrish staff definitely, forgot about that one, so rare indeed.

Captain Krompdown

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

The furious fist of Kromp is upon you.

[PhD]; Brave and Manly Leader

17 Aug 2011 at 04:37 - 108

/agree on the orrish staff. Very hard to find a good non-insc one.

Once upon a time, I bought a req 10 20/10 pre-nerf orrish staff. Gave it to my bro. Maybe he'll be so kind as to post it for us.

StueyG

Kamaspama

Join Date: Dec 2005

Nunya Bizness

pupu / SLAP

W/

17 Aug 2011 at 10:48 - 109

I know someone that has a max r8 10/10 orrish..... they used to be like dead bows etc and were obscenely rare. Especially max... I bought a gold non-max 10/9 one long ago for 50k and it had a lot of bids on it. I think I got it from Cap if I remember correctly...

and if you are going to bring up stuff like that - honestly most any staff in a true old school 20/20 form is quite rare (dual gold text) and then r8 20/20s.....

Also I have seen one pair of r8 +5e Salient Daggers - someone has a complete set of them - but I asked around for years and never found another set.....

Kabong

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2007

17 Aug 2011 at 11:10 - 110

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Krompdown

/agree on the orrish staff. Very hard to find a good non-insc one.

Once upon a time, I bought a req 10 20/10 pre-nerf orrish staff. Gave it to my bro. Maybe he'll be so kind as to post it for us.

Here, with my other nice (but not so old) Orrish Earth Staff:

Captain Krompdown

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

The furious fist of Kromp is upon you.

[PhD]; Brave and Manly Leader

17 Aug 2011 at 12:56 - 111

Quote:

Originally Posted by StueyG

I bought a gold non-max 10/9 one long ago for 50k and it had a lot of bids on it. I think I got it from Cap if I remember correctly...

I'm not sure you if you mean me or Capitalist. I don't remember having a non-max 10/9 orrish. I do remember having a req 12 8/8 pre-nerf orrish that I sold to The Herbalizer long ago. Here's the PC thread: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/8....html?t=105897. IIRC, I did a little better than my friendly neighborhood PCer thought I would (although I'd probably pay twice as much to have the staff back now):P

Malice Black

Site Legend

Join Date: Oct 2005

17 Aug 2011 at 15:02 - 112

I had a req12 10/10 Orrish. God knows what happened to that.

capitalist

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

17 Aug 2011 at 15:54 - 113

It was me. Is the staff still around?

carnage-runner

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Aug 2006

Canada, B.C. Vancouver. aka.. amazing.

[Sith]

W/Me

17 Aug 2011 at 17:34 - 114

I feel like a huge noob, you guys are referring to Earth Staff with obsidian skin, uninsc, yes?... Please say yes, or I will feel so inferior to all things. :'(

Captain Krompdown

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

The furious fist of Kromp is upon you.

[PhD]; Brave and Manly Leader

17 Aug 2011 at 17:42 - 115

hahaha yeah, carnage, orrish = obsidian

carnage-runner

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Aug 2006

Canada, B.C. Vancouver. aka.. amazing.

[Sith]

W/Me

17 Aug 2011 at 17:49 - 116

Relief... lol. So much relief. Thank you sir.

Bahamuts Wut

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

19 Aug 2011 at 13:09 - 117

Just want to know - how rare are 20/20 Dead Staffs?

superraptors

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Dec 2008

W/

19 Aug 2011 at 13:46 - 118

how about fire staff with dead staff skin

Malice Black

Site Legend

Join Date: Oct 2005

19 Aug 2011 at 14:23 - 119

It's a core skin. They come in all req I believe.

I've got a few 20/20 dead staffs. Didn't cost a great deal when I brought them so can't imagine they're worth much now.

Jason Xll

Banned

Join Date: Sep 2005

Ice Tooth Cave

W/Mo

19 Aug 2011 at 16:03 - 120

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

It's a core skin. They come in all req I believe.

I've got a few 20/20 dead staffs. Didn't cost a great deal when I brought them so can't imagine they're worth much now.

Nah, the req fire dead staff no longer drops. If you have one of those 20/20 you're looking at formidable amount of ecto.