Its amusing seeing the constant flip flop between 'don't just consider discord on its own, consider the whole build' and 'discord taking up 60% of the necros time isn't a big deal, you don't have to use it constantly'. Either you are making full use of your skill bar or you aren't. If the elite skill on the bar takes the majority of the Necro's time to use the others must be easy to cast within the downtime or they are wasted. Contrariwise, if the elite skills is a short cast or infrequently cast spell, the other skills on the Necro's bar have more time available and become exponentially more effective. Since we agree that the main power of a Necromancer's bar is the overall combination of strong skills available within the death/curse line, taking those skills and not being able to use them to their fullest effect is foolhardy.
Its hilarious when I see people in PvE running Discord along with minion skills (god help them if they run minion bomber skills, 2s cast death nova rofl), healing skills (sorry cant heal cause I'm killing things), or long cast-time hexs. The bottom line is that all 3 heroes HAVE to be ready to cast Discord simultaneously, and they will have to interrupt other skills, especially long cast time skills, constantly. To not do this means that the spike fails and instead of Discord being a decently impressive spike it turns into a mediocre DPS spell. Obviously only a fool would take Discord as a DPS spell, so if you want to actually use it well you have to spike, presenting the problem outlined above.
Show me a decent Discord hero set build in which the skills the builds contained are actually usable within the build and I will contend that Discord becomes a very effective skill. Shouts/precast spirits/maintained enchantments/.25s skills or what ever.
What would everyone do without Discord?
Kunder
Daesu
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kunder
Its hilarious when I see people in PvE running Discord along with minion skills (god help them if they run minion bomber skills, 2s cast death nova rofl), healing skills (sorry cant heal cause I'm killing things), or long cast-time hexs. The bottom line is that all 3 heroes HAVE to be ready to cast Discord simultaneously, and they will have to interrupt other skills, especially long cast time skills, constantly. To not do this means that the spike fails and instead of Discord being a decently impressive spike it turns into a mediocre DPS spell. Obviously only a fool would take Discord as a DPS spell, so if you want to actually use it well you have to spike, presenting the problem outlined above.
Show me a decent Discord hero set build in which the skills the builds contained are actually usable within the build and I will contend that Discord becomes a very effective skill. Shouts/precast spirits/maintained enchantments/.25s skills or what ever. |
Heroes would not cast heals if you don't need heals otherwise they would be constantly healing you even at full life. Why do you need to heal when you are at full life? They only heal when the AI deems it is needed, otherwise the AI should be attacking, i.e. casting discord. Similarly they would not (and cannot) cast animate minion spells if there are no corpses to exploit. The only exception to this would be the discord MB which has death nova which competes for casting time with discord because minions are almost always dying.
However, one, a discord MB doesn't have many minions anyway (compared to a Aotl MB), and two, you still have the other 2 necros who can use discord properly. Furthermore, the recommended use of discordway is to bind discord to keys and manually spike when needed.
Discordway obviously works well whether you believe it or not.
Kunder
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Daesu
It is not as bad as you think.
Heroes would not cast heals if you don't need heals otherwise they would be constantly healing you even at full life. Why do you need to heal when you are at full life? They only heal when the AI deems it is needed, otherwise the AI should be attacking, i.e. casting discord. Similarly they would not (and cannot) cast animate minion spells if there are no corpses to exploit. The only exception to this would be the discord MB which has death nova which competes for casting time with discord because minions are almost always dying. However, one, a discord MB doesn't have many minions anyway (compared to a Aotl MB), and two, you still have the other 2 necros who can use discord properly. Furthermore, the recommended use of discordway is to bind discord to keys and manually spike when needed. Discordway obviously works well whether you believe it or not. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ZephyLynx
Just because you can vanquish with discordway does not make it the best build. I once did THead Keep (back when it was proph only) with an empty skill bar and 7 henchmen and had no problem. Does that make an empty skill bar + 7 old proph hench good?
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FengShuiDove
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Originally Posted by Kunder
-snip-
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Boogz
He's argument is only right at the point where discord + death nova fails, wich is quite true, since heroes will stop casting discord to keep bombs on minions up. otherwise, it fails.
How do you guys think discordway would be with 7 heroes? 5 Discord (3 N 2 Me/N) and 2 Rt spirit spammers? would frontlines be needed?
How do you guys think discordway would be with 7 heroes? 5 Discord (3 N 2 Me/N) and 2 Rt spirit spammers? would frontlines be needed?
Riot Narita
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Boogz
How do you guys think discordway would be with 7 heroes?
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lishi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kunder
Its amusing seeing the constant flip flop between 'don't just consider discord on its own, consider the whole build' and 'discord taking up 60% of the necros time isn't a big deal, you don't have to use it constantly'. Either you are making full use of your skill bar or you aren't. If the elite skill on the bar takes the majority of the Necro's time to use the others must be easy to cast within the downtime or they are wasted. Contrariwise, if the elite skills is a short cast or infrequently cast spell, the other skills on the Necro's bar have more time available and become exponentially more effective. Since we agree that the main power of a Necromancer's bar is the overall combination of strong skills available within the death/curse line, taking those skills and not being able to use them to their fullest effect is foolhardy.
Its hilarious when I see people in PvE running Discord along with minion skills (god help them if they run minion bomber skills, 2s cast death nova rofl), healing skills (sorry cant heal cause I'm killing things), or long cast-time hexs. The bottom line is that all 3 heroes HAVE to be ready to cast Discord simultaneously, and they will have to interrupt other skills, especially long cast time skills, constantly. To not do this means that the spike fails and instead of Discord being a decently impressive spike it turns into a mediocre DPS spell. Obviously only a fool would take Discord as a DPS spell, so if you want to actually use it well you have to spike, presenting the problem outlined above. Show me a decent Discord hero set build in which the skills the builds contained are actually usable within the build and I will contend that Discord becomes a very effective skill. Shouts/precast spirits/maintained enchantments/.25s skills or what ever. |
Think a normal team setup
2 healer / prot
6 between support / damage (probably with 1 MM)
With discord you have
2 n/rit healer discord
1 n/mo prot semi MM
5 between support / damage ( i mostly go only damage unless i face some area with some heavy healing)
If you play right with most group you will be pretty much calling killing and tabbling to the next target.
Sometime the 2 healer will have to spot to heal but you wont have problem killing even without 1 or 2 of them.
I moved away from the standard discord build as i'm using 2 account now and with 6 hero the thing become much more open.
But discord is just the best choice out there.
You probably can do better with flagging, wall blocking and a lot of AoE. But it took much effort to pull that while you are watching a film on the second monitor.
lishi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Riot Narita
1 player and 7 heroes from a single account? Probably not as good as the 1 player and 6 Necro heroes from 2 accounts, that people have been using for ages already... either by multi-launch, or by getting a friend/guildy to enter a zone with you (they can zone out again immediately after, leaving their heroes to follow you).
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and for those who are saying Spirit spamming eclipse Discord, yea their are good, but normally when the ritualist lay the first 1-2 set of spirit i already killed few target with only the 4 necro.
Illusions of Fate
I would continue my pve life as is, have fun with my heroes instead of meta BS. IMO fun>best.
'Nuff said.
'Nuff said.
Jeydra
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kunder
Its amusing seeing the constant flip flop between 'don't just consider discord on its own, consider the whole build' and 'discord taking up 60% of the necros time isn't a big deal, you don't have to use it constantly'. Either you are making full use of your skill bar or you aren't. If the elite skill on the bar takes the majority of the Necro's time to use the others must be easy to cast within the downtime or they are wasted. Contrariwise, if the elite skills is a short cast or infrequently cast spell, the other skills on the Necro's bar have more time available and become exponentially more effective. Since we agree that the main power of a Necromancer's bar is the overall combination of strong skills available within the death/curse line, taking those skills and not being able to use them to their fullest effect is foolhardy.
Its hilarious when I see people in PvE running Discord along with minion skills (god help them if they run minion bomber skills, 2s cast death nova rofl), healing skills (sorry cant heal cause I'm killing things), or long cast-time hexs. The bottom line is that all 3 heroes HAVE to be ready to cast Discord simultaneously, and they will have to interrupt other skills, especially long cast time skills, constantly. To not do this means that the spike fails and instead of Discord being a decently impressive spike it turns into a mediocre DPS spell. Obviously only a fool would take Discord as a DPS spell, so if you want to actually use it well you have to spike, presenting the problem outlined above. Show me a decent Discord hero set build in which the skills the builds contained are actually usable within the build and I will contend that Discord becomes a very effective skill. Shouts/precast spirits/maintained enchantments/.25s skills or what ever. |
Name me some good skills in the Curses line in the hands of a hero. There's ... um ... Rend Enchantments as a spike skill. Mark of Pain, if you don't mind the 20s cooldown since the hero cannot AP well (will also need to execute some aggro techniques / micro). Barbs if you're relying on physical damage for some reason. And then what? Desecrate Enchantments / Defile Enchantments don't deal much damage for 2s cast. Enfeebling Blood is way overhyped. I call the skill completely outclassed. Faintheartedness / Reckless Haste are also weak. Insidious Parasite is a bit better because it does damage. Weaken Armour is decent, but no more than that because not many builds rely on armour-sensitive damage in HM. Well of Darkness + Suffering I guess, except that's more scraping the barrel than anything else, and it's still weaker than Enfeebling Blood / Reckless Haste / Faintheartedness. And you call this "overall combination of strong skills". I've tried making a good Curses hero bar several times and there never were enough good skills to use.
And then there's Death Magic. Name me some good skills in the Death line in the hands of a hero, that you can stack in teams. All the animate spells (including AotL) decrease in power once you start stacking them in teams. What are you left with? Rising Bile and Putrid bile, obviously. Death Nova maybe, same with Blood of the Master. Discord. What a strong collection, there aren't 8 skills worth using.
Conclusion - if you're going to make a Necro bar that deals damage (+ does not rely on minions - you can only use one minion master in a team), you are going to rely on Discord. There are no other options. If you disagree, then name me one Necro skill that does more DPS than Discord, and don't give me stupid crap like "I put Suffering + Life Transfer on 10 targets I balled up nicely = 20 DPS x 10 = 200 DPS".
Daesu
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
Name me some good skills in the Curses line in the hands of a hero. There's ... um ... Rend Enchantments as a spike skill. Mark of Pain, if you don't mind the 20s cooldown since the hero cannot AP well (will also need to execute some aggro techniques / micro). Barbs if you're relying on physical damage for some reason. And then what? Desecrate Enchantments / Defile Enchantments don't deal much damage for 2s cast. Enfeebling Blood is way overhyped. I call the skill completely outclassed. Faintheartedness / Reckless Haste are also weak. Insidious Parasite is a bit better because it does damage. Weaken Armour is decent, but no more than that because not many builds rely on armour-sensitive damage in HM. Well of Darkness + Suffering I guess, except that's more scraping the barrel than anything else, and it's still weaker than Enfeebling Blood / Reckless Haste / Faintheartedness. And you call this "overall combination of strong skills". I've tried making a good Curses hero bar several times and there never were enough good skills to use.
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Horace Slughorn
I don't do anything anymore that requires heroes. Except festival quests, but it hardly matters what builds my heroes run for those (besides some sweet incoming/fallback action)
Boogz
just to remember, heroes, unfortunately, can't use Feast of Corruption well. So, curses is pretty much Spiteful Spirit, also Lingering Curse is useful on some specific areas. For death magic we have, AotL and Discord (no, jagged bones suck, doesn't matter what you're gonna say, it has 15sec recharge.). I don't see a single blood elite worthful to bring (yes, life transfer still suck, coz in HM it does pretty much nothing)
Although necroes heroe have very little option @ PvE they're all powerful options. So, based on this, are they underpowered, overpowered or balanced?
Although necroes heroe have very little option @ PvE they're all powerful options. So, based on this, are they underpowered, overpowered or balanced?
ogre_jd
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Boogz
I don't see a single blood elite worthful to bring (yes, life transfer still suck, coz in HM it does pretty much nothing)
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Blood is Power, Life Transfer, Order of the Vampire, Ravenous Gaze, Soul Leech, Spoil Victor and, if you like Wells, Well of Power are all useful Elites.
Xenomortis
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ogre_jd
...except put 8 pips of health degeneration (16 health per second) on multiple foes and, usually, cap you to 10 pips of health regeneration (20hps). Quite useful, unless you think that only Rangers should do degeneration and that everyone should rely only on Monks or Ritualists for healing and never their own skills.
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Morphy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kunder
Its amusing seeing the constant flip flop between 'don't just consider discord on its own, consider the whole build' and 'discord taking up 60% of the necros time isn't a big deal, you don't have to use it constantly'.
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Quote:
| Either you are making full use of your skill bar or you aren't. |
Quote:
| If the elite skill on the bar takes the majority of the Necro's time to use the others must be easy to cast within the downtime or they are wasted. |
Quote:
| Contrariwise, if the elite skills is a short cast or infrequently cast spell, the other skills on the Necro's bar have more time available and become exponentially more effective. Since we agree that the main power of a Necromancer's bar is the overall combination of strong skills available within the death/curse line, taking those skills and not being able to use them to their fullest effect is foolhardy. |
Quote:
| Its hilarious when I see people in PvE running Discord along with minion skills (god help them if they run minion bomber skills, 2s cast death nova rofl), healing skills (sorry cant heal cause I'm killing things), or long cast-time hexs. |
Quote:
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The bottom line is that all 3 heroes HAVE to be ready to cast Discord simultaneously, and they will have to interrupt other skills, especially long cast time skills, constantly. To not do this means that the spike fails and instead of Discord being a decently impressive spike it turns into a mediocre DPS spell. Obviously only a fool would take Discord as a DPS spell, so if you want to actually use it well you have to spike, presenting the problem outlined above. |
Quote:
| Show me a decent Discord hero set build in which the skills the builds contained are actually usable within the build and I will contend that Discord becomes a very effective skill. Shouts/precast spirits/maintained enchantments/.25s skills or what ever. |
Premium Unleaded
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ogre_jd
that everyone should rely only on Monks or Ritualists for healing and never their own skills.
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Also, there are only 2 useful blood elites in pve, SV and BiP, one of which is very situational. OotV is borderline because of its non-stacking clause. The others are for the most part, just bad. Taking something like empathic removal, or god forbid UA, would be a better choice than most of the ones in the line.
Boogz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ogre_jd
...except put 8 pips of health degeneration (16 health per second) on multiple foes and, usually, cap you to 10 pips of health regeneration (20hps). Quite useful, unless you think that only Rangers should do degeneration and that everyone should rely only on Monks or Ritualists for healing and never their own skills.
Blood is Power, Life Transfer, Order of the Vampire, Ravenous Gaze, Soul Leech, Spoil Victor and, if you like Wells, Well of Power are all useful Elites. |
life transfer is not that good, only good at NM
OotV is still usable, but too specific, since you'd have to run a full physical party to make good use of it.
Ravenous gaze is a mediocre skills, not even worth commenting
Soul Leech is bad, SV is only good for farming.
WoP on the other hand is quite good, I had completely forgotten about it, thx for the remind
mrmango
Lol @ LT fanboys. Always.
wilebill
"I think at least half of the people playing the game would all of a sudden suck."
Never used Discord. Use my own variants of Sabway and sometimes other hero configurations.
Even so, I suck. And it's not been all of a sudden. Sucked ever since I started playing, and even before that. With me, it's genetic. I blame my heritage.
Seriously, I do feel sad for those who think that Discord is the only true way. They limit the fun they could be having.
Never used Discord. Use my own variants of Sabway and sometimes other hero configurations.
Even so, I suck. And it's not been all of a sudden. Sucked ever since I started playing, and even before that. With me, it's genetic. I blame my heritage.
Seriously, I do feel sad for those who think that Discord is the only true way. They limit the fun they could be having.
lightcz
Discord definitely works. I am fairly new to this game and I am still learning. I built my own hero team, which works okay. I tried different build from meta and I found out that discord way is the best for my playing style. I have all 3 hero's discord set on One single key (autohotkey).
When I am about to encounter a group, first I target healer and spike discord which takes 3-4 sec to get monk out of the way which makes rest just piece of cake
BTW, I did whole war in kryta with discord way which I didn't have much problem as I play myself as Necro and I bring alot of hex and condition as well.
But, when I play as warrior (which is my 2nd fav toon), I dont use discordway. I use splinter weapon and other physical spike damage buff and most importantly condition remover (don't want to be blind). Discord works as well but other build worked better for me.
Don't be, I am having blast with discordway.
When I am about to encounter a group, first I target healer and spike discord which takes 3-4 sec to get monk out of the way which makes rest just piece of cake
BTW, I did whole war in kryta with discord way which I didn't have much problem as I play myself as Necro and I bring alot of hex and condition as well.
But, when I play as warrior (which is my 2nd fav toon), I dont use discordway. I use splinter weapon and other physical spike damage buff and most importantly condition remover (don't want to be blind). Discord works as well but other build worked better for me.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wilebill
Seriously, I do feel sad for those who think that Discord is the only true way. They limit the fun they could be having.
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Cursed by Grenth
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lightcz
Discord definitely works. I am fairly new to this game and I am still learning. I built my own hero team, which works okay. I tried different build from meta and I found out that discord way is the best for my playing style. I have all 3 hero's discord set on One single key (autohotkey).
When I am about to encounter a group, first I target healer and spike discord which takes 3-4 sec to get monk out of the way which makes rest just piece of cake BTW, I did whole war in kryta with discord way which I didn't have much problem as I play myself as Necro and I bring alot of hex and condition as well. But, when I play as warrior (which is my 2nd fav toon), I dont use discordway. I use splinter weapon and other physical spike damage buff and most importantly condition remover (don't want to be blind). Discord works as well but other build worked better for me. Don't be, I am having blast with discordway. |
What he said, except im not new
Discordway is excellent for WiK, as long as you are an Assassins promise caster. For melee classes you can better have sabway.
Rushin Roulette
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wilebill
Seriously, I do feel sad for those who think that Discord is the only true way. They limit the fun they could be having.
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The only thing which beats Discord or any otehr Hero set up is playing with other players... but try getting enough together, apart from through Forums/Voice chat, for Vanquishing some random area in one of the 4 games?
Daesu
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cursed by Grenth
Discordway is excellent for WiK, as long as you are an Assassins promise caster. For melee classes you can better have sabway.
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Every build has its strengths and weaknesses. The strengths of discord lies in fast recharge, fast casting, relatively high armor ignoring damage. The weaknesses of discord lies in the prep needed to first hex and condition your target and single targeting. Discordway also have potentially fewer minions to draw damage than spiritway with an Aotl MM. If hexes or conditions don't stick for long in the area, then that would limit the effectiveness of discord. Having fewer exploitable corpses would also limit the defensive capabillity of discordway.
Spiritway has different strengths and weaknesses. You can prep your spirits before an attack and dish out more damage especially with painful bond. You also have more minions and spirits to draw damage from your team. But spirit attacks are line-of-sight so they dont work with cornering well unless you are prepared to micro. Spirit attacks are also susceptible to blocking.
jazilla
I don't think Discord will be nerfed because it doesn't plow through stuff like other team builds that have been nerfed in the past. I also don't think they will do it because they are too busy doing stuff for Hearts of the North/Wintersday/Embark Beach/Full 1-person hero teams. Heck, the Derv update was announced with the Mesmer update months ago and they haven't even commented on whether or not that is even going to happen anymore.
/irrelevant thread?
/irrelevant thread?
DRGN
Um, people would play any number of other builds that are out there?
This thread really just seems like an excuse for people to flame others for not abusing the same overpowered shit as they are and not being "creative" in a 5+ year old stagnant game...
This thread really just seems like an excuse for people to flame others for not abusing the same overpowered shit as they are and not being "creative" in a 5+ year old stagnant game...
Acehole2006
Quote:
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Originally Posted by drgn
um, people would play any number of other builds that are out there?
This thread really just seems like an excuse for people to flame others for not abusing the same overpowered shit as they are and not being "creative" in a 5+ year old stagnant game... |
+1.............................
Ghull Ka
*pops into thread*
Hey now, Heroes with Blood is Power are great! My monk loves his BiP-Olias!
>.>
*pops out*
Hey now, Heroes with Blood is Power are great! My monk loves his BiP-Olias!
>.>
*pops out*
Necromas
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ghull Ka
*pops into thread*
Hey now, Heroes with Blood is Power are great! My monk loves his BiP-Olias! >.> *pops out* |
Daesu
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DRGN
Um, people would play any number of other builds that are out there?
This thread really just seems like an excuse for people to flame others for not abusing the same overpowered shit as they are and not being "creative" in a 5+ year old stagnant game... |
Case in point, Discordway was created before the Rit buffs while Spiritway was created only AFTER the Rit buffs.
Jeydra
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette
This part confuses me.... Do Heroes chat more and have different personalities with different Skillbars? I personally havent noticed any difference between having fun with Discord, Spiritway, Sabway, Balanced or any other combination/Setup of heroes.
The only thing which beats Discord or any otehr Hero set up is playing with other players... but try getting enough together, apart from through Forums/Voice chat, for Vanquishing some random area in one of the 4 games? |
ruk1a
Quote:
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Originally Posted by vader
What would everyone do if Discord was suddenly massively nerfed or removed from the game? Seriously? I think at least half of the people playing the game would all of a sudden suck. It seems like every single time I group up with someone in GW they either already have Olias, Livia, and Whispers in their group or they add them shortly after a few people join. Do people even know how to play this game without Discord?
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BlackSephir
Love how discord users assume everyone does it too.
Acehole2006
If we can deal with ursan and shadow form being nerfed im sure no1 would miss Discord builds.
Chasing Squirrels
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lightcz
Discord definitely works. I am fairly new to this game and I am still learning. I built my own hero team, which works okay. I tried different build from meta and I found out that discord way is the best for my playing style. I have all 3 hero's discord set on One single key (autohotkey).
When I am about to encounter a group, first I target healer and spike discord which takes 3-4 sec to get monk out of the way which makes rest just piece of cake BTW, I did whole war in kryta with discord way which I didn't have much problem as I play myself as Necro and I bring alot of hex and condition as well. But, when I play as warrior (which is my 2nd fav toon), I dont use discordway. I use splinter weapon and other physical spike damage buff and most importantly condition remover (don't want to be blind). Discord works as well but other build worked better for me. Don't be, I am having blast with discordway. |
How do you do this?
FengShuiDove
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chasing Squirrels
How do you do this?
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EDIT: Or whatever else you have slotted there. I've got a hero spike build lined up for 7 heroes that will basically caster spike using each hero's first skill. It's kind of a neat function just to have around.