Nerf Invincibuilds

Comparing DwG to SF is like comparing Mending to WoH.

If you want to hit sf, you first need to ask yourself what would be left of the playerbase if it was gone. Would everyone move on, or would the game die? I know I'm just one player, but these days I'm almost too lazy to spend the 15 minutes necessary for fow, let alone 40 if sf didn't exist. You could bring up ursan as an example of people not leaving the game, but remember that the game was much younger and people weren't used to such fast times back then.

True, but you cannot deny DwG is an OP skill, it's just OP in dealing damage, they nerfed SF's damage abilities, remember? But that is beside the matter.

This is the sole argument Anet is maintaining atm I think.. They would lose a big chunk of their playerbase because, 4 or 5 years ago, clearing UW in 2 hours was something to be proud of, but nowadays, with current economical standards and what players are used to, nerfing SF will cause many ppl to say "f*ck it, I ain't spending 2h in UW for a lousy reward and possible fail". And a lot will get bored and just quit while waiting for GW2. The couple of sales that GW1 still provides will stop completely, because new players will find a dead game, all end content abandoned of people and nothing to do..

Tbh, it's live and let live atm.. Just ignore it, and learn the stuff yourself, who knows, you might enjoy it.. And find out it's not all as invincible as you think it is..

alright please explain WHY shadowform needs to be nerfed. I mean look at it, 26dmg cap at 16 SHADOW ARTS thus making it an ineffective skill if you are to cast attacks or melee them. Sure you can perma against spells, but can u not do the same with obsidian flesh??? Of course shadowform is good for running; the goal isnt to kill everything in your past, just get past it and kill whats nescassary with 7 other people and move on. This is players knowing how to use the skills given to them to do things quickly and efficiently. Sure they can survive onslaughts but they have heals do they not? Can they not spam EE to heal for around 100hp to each other.

ShadowForm isnt the skill needing a nerf; its shroud of distress.

noone can say shadowform is "overpowered" because the skill itself is only useful for survival.

-Joncom Gree
Dungeon runner & SC'r
Member of [TEGO](i know i need to change my status XD)

Basically SF only works with big ranged pulls and not against foes who use self healing skills....It doesn't need to be nerfed, it is already a bad skill for everything that isn't running/SC's

That's all....

The only thing that you can do with SF is completely remove it from the game or do nothing.....

Make another thread: Remove SF from the game to give GW economy a new impulse....

I really wanna see how many ppl got the courage to have SF removed from the game..

What needs to be fixed about this is the fact that the max is 26, but putting up Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, it goes beyond that cap, but not only that, it adds armor ignoring damage to everything you do. Take Sliver Armor, a popular choice for Shadow Form users. At 12 Earth, you are dealing 29 earth damage, in HM you may hit for about 18, I don't really know the specifics. Adding 15 damage to that makes each hit deal 32 damage, with how often Sliver Armor deals damage, that is a significant increase. Basically, my point is, Shadow Form may be fine in its functionality, but fix the broken aspect of being able to break the damage cap from any damage modifier. Each "packet" of damage should cap at 26, no matter what is used to modify damage.

or.....change it entirely.
Shadow Form originally prevented all spells and attacks...which led to very fast and exploited Speed clears.
Anet nerfed it so only spells are prevented....still decent SC times and 7 or 8 A/x teams
If i had to make a suggestion, i would keep it maintainable, remove the damage cap, and change the functionality to:
For x...x...x seconds, 50% of all incoming attacks miss and all hostile spells have a 50% chance to fail. Problem solved?

-They are now vulnerable to attacks and spells (enchantment stripping)
-They can now deal their normal damage (or cap it a bit if still OP)

I just dont see Anet nerfing SF too much further

they already fixed that a little ago it is completely imposable to break the damage cap with any type of damage/damage modifiers with the exception of life stealing. If you sf is capped at 26 you can buff your sliver all you want it will never deal more than 26 damage.

They did?

I don't use it, ever, so I was never aware of that.



Mia, I like your idea, I have tossed an idea around friends that a suitable change could be to prevent attacks and spells, no damage cap, 30 Recharge, but it ends after 2 attacks or spells for every rank in Shadow Arts. Something like that, but your idea is also good

exactly- finally a voice of reason ;p

actually it's not true 100%, but generally non-human mobs only got 1 or max 2 healing skills, even if their attributes make the healing really strong.

I've been farming groups of wardens these days with my sin and sometimes killing those pesky ritualists is difficult with SF if you don't aggroo at least 2 groups.

If u notice the most SC's SF is only used as protection skill, and cap dmg force you to rely on AoE spells, conditions etc......

I guess all this polemic comes from the UW sc....the ever-elite area that anybody want to beat!

Just for your interest, if you need to sliver shit, you use an ele, period. 16 (or 17) earth magic, + EBSoH + BuH (+ Intensity?)= easily 50-65 damage per sliver, depending on armor of the foe. With intensity it's 70-80.. So, eles are way superior to perma's in that case. The only problem with ele tanks is: they are way less mobile. They usually need to be /Me for mantra of earth and stoneflesh recasts make them have to stop walking every couple seconds, and the most important part of an assassin: they have shadowsteps. Srry to say, but if there is 1 thing in this game that is f*cking awesome in the full meaning of the word, it's shadowsteps. It's used in our DoA runs to do some funky shit in trenches, when bodyblocked, you can jump out, you can jump in the middle of a mob etc etc...

Ssins are good at balling shit up, tanking it (with bonds or not) and waiting for a spike. Tank and spank. They can be used to sliver things, and do dungeons, but they aren't as effective as they think they are.. An ele would be a lot stronger, it's just less utile..

I recall when sf was nerf changed to its current use and for a brief while the obby flesh eles actually took over.Yes with obby ele its a case of walk/stop/walk/stop every time you cast an enchant - try doing vaetires on obby ele then comparing with a few runs on a sin and tho the differnce in time is from the skills the sins a lot faster at balling the mobs and moving - easier to ball the 2 mobs on sin and ele it seems to take ages.

I remember when it was a case of sin hate just because of sf and now its just sf hate even tho the skills not as good as it was.Even with its buggy nature - noticed on mo/a with a reverse of a/mo build strangely my monk took weird damage at start yet on me/a and a/me or a/me that damage never happens and i had to constantly on me/a cast dp/sf and 2 enchants to stop the dmg ( old bug thats already known ).

Take into account that also sins were able to perma sf a huge chunk of gw and had a serious amount of farms and upon the sf change probably 75% of those farms died - now you tell me that sf is still op after losing that amount of farms.Sf is basically a longer version of spellbreaker and i dont see ppl complaining that spellbreakers op even when it can be echo`d to be perma.

Spell breaker requires Blessed Aura, Arcane Echo, and an enchantment mod to be perma'd. Oh, and good luck trying to time it before SB ends and the SB wears off of the echo you just made(no time indicator) while your trying to farm.

And yes it is still overpowered. Hey, I use SF all the time myself. I mean how else was I going to max my titles? You want me to rely on other players to keep me alive? And play with balanced teams that require tact and situational awareness? pff

But, I'm not going to lie or live in denial so much to say it deserves its place in GW and there are plenty of other skills that can do the same thing. And by plenty I mean two subpar skills that dont even come close.

I find my imbagon setup much more useful to max my titles.....You can do everything with h/h....

SF is just used for SC's and running. You can do few farms with it, but still it's not OP. Obsidian Flesh is way much more better for the same farms you can do with SF.

I say again: remove it completely from GW or just keep it with no others nerf, or it will be another useless assassin elite skill.

Well it doesn't have to be nerfed to be useless. It can be nerfed to where it's more fair or given some other role/ability. End game is pretty important and elite area/dungeons are apart of that. Don't try to push speed clears as something small.

Well of course, the Imbagon is used for SC's..... all the time?

How many SC's/Farms require or even involve OF? Comparing SF to OF is a really weak arguement.

Besides the "Yes SF is OP" and "No it's not" arguement, it would be nice to hear more possible changes to SF that could make it balanced when compared to Obsidian Flesh and Spell Breaker.

Or, I can reverse my arguement. Obsidian Flesh and Spell Breaker should be buffed to Shadow Form status! Every profession should get an Invincibuild! Sounds silly doesn't it?

Otherwise, please provide empirical data that shows SF is equal to OF and SB. And show that all professions are equally balanced in this manner.

Well, you are a Paragon. So you do know about useless Elites. But, I'll let you in on a secret. All professions have useless elites. Even w/o SF, the Assassin still has plenty of powerful elites to work with, and still fill several niches. Unlike the Paragon, thats a different thread.

I know every profession got his useless elites...i know that Obsi Flesh is different from SF, infact i just said that i use OF to farm some spots, just not to have the dmg cap. But use SF to chest run and do (like once a month) some SC when i need money.

Comparing SF to OF or Spell Breaker.....Sb is on Divine Favour, making it impossible to use for non-monks. OF you cannot attack, have -2 nrg regen and costs 25.

They are just different skills, you are just talking about general spellbreakers. You just find SF too easy to be permaed, and it's true. But still, the dmg cap makes it impossible to be invincible + remember that in HM mobs still can hit you for a bunch of dmg and the proof is that many ppl still die in SC.

And again: there are no invincibuilds and it's good that only few professions got a sort of dmg prevention like terra tank builds, SF and SB tank.

I agree with you, not every profession should have his cool
do-everything-by-urself skill. But it seems you are just crying for the possibilities that running SF gives to assassins and not to other players.

I find much more unjust that only 3 professions got hex removal. That should be a must-do update!

i repeat: there are no invincibuilds. there are just few skills combinations that allow a single player to play some areas without help. You should then nerf SoS, Save Yourself (even if i love it, i find it really OP), Glaive, Panic (zomg..10sec mass interruption wtf *__*)...let's talk about the madness of this skills...MoP builds, really wtf....

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2165/gw397.jpg

Omg, look howmany ssins are used there.. Oh wait..

Anyway, it's been proven time and again that Rangers and eles are in fact WAY more powerful to do SC's than ssins. Rangers use SF nonetheless, and Eles have OF.

I have to agree that OF got seriously bummf*cked and that its new description is bad imo, but it's quite a viable choice. If you know what you're doing, you can use it, but it is indeed inferior to SF, if you want to run to places. OF is in fact seriously more powerful than SF for farming, because you don't need to attack, you never had to, so that part of OF is just a gimmick imo. SF is stronger to run to places, and with bonds, tank shit. Or, with the right experience and skills, tank shit without bonds. Still trying to convince me that SF is too powerful? It has its own uses, but in comparison to it's counterpart(s) it's still bad.

SB is indeed a bad counterpart, because it has such high energy cost, but it's easy to keep up: 16 DF + conset = 17 DF -> 19sec SB, Blessed Aura makes it last 31,464 seconds, Conset makes 45 seconds 36secs, Throw in a glyph on swiftness and you got perma SB.. And the immense upside from SB is: spells fail AFTER being cast, as such the energy is lost, and this can be used against the mobs with correct gameplay. So, OF and SB aren't the best viable options, but are still viable options:

As Mo/E, put some in Earth magic and prot prayers, and you're an invincible tank with prot spirit and Stoneflesh.

Still wanna convince me?

Tank 'n spank call for bad game mechanics.

Before people start flaming, yes I do consider SCs and farming bad for this game just like any other

The only thing I hate that SF did is there are almost no balanced teams doing eotn dungeons unless the specific dungeon you want is the ZB that day. I also think its silly most dungeons can be done solo by a SF sin.

Do you SF haters think that everyone who plays this game has a bunch of free time to spare? Take FoWsc for example. Around 25 - 30 minutes with PuG (if it doesn't fail). If you nerf SF what will that time become? 1 hour? More? That's if it even works. That's a lot of time to spend to open the chest once and get most likely crappy drops.

Doing SC's with your guild / alliance on vent - the most fun thing to do currently for a lot of people. Don't spoil it!

The main issue I see with invici builds (mainly SF ones) is that they are basically so OP that other options become redundant.

Tak UW for example...old SC got down to 7mins...Anet in an attempt to correct an "elite" area being rediculously easy to sc only slowed down the sc by 15mins or so. Every other option (non sc) of doing UW got the shaft b/c it increased the time to complete UW exponentially. So now the balanced teams really cannot reasonably complete UW. (by reasonably, I mean not devoting 1/2 day) Yes, I know there are some exceptions...but they are few and far between.

Also I believe that the nonsc playerbase is much larger than ya'll think. You just don't see them b/c they are not in sc areas doing sc's.

On the other hand , is that normal than in a game such as GW , according to some of you , the only interest left is to abuse mobs AI 24/7 with THE skill ???

Let's face it : people get money by doing uw with SF , by doing fow with sf , by running almost any dungeon with SF. In fact , i don't mind a lot using SF , but the reward is usually too high for the job done ( i.e it's usually too easy to finish an area using SF , not much risk is involved compared to a normal team..)

I could talk as well about all consequences ( some items worth over 500e ( on GW begins , people did find droknar run expensive , whereas it was only 3-5k..), which is completly ridiculous ; people's arrogance ) . But well , we can't blame people for using the only viable build left , that's mainly all those bad updates that lead to this situation...

I already explained that in UW, eles and rangers are way stronger than ssins, same in FoW. Only places ssin is still the best option is DoA and dungeons.. So, the most popular areas are done better by other professions, and still ppl are QQing that the ssin is OP?

SF is SF. SF doesnt always mean a sin. OF is extremely niche oriented...due to e costs and recharge. Kind of apples and oranges tbh...both fruit, but different none the less. It's pretty easy to see which skill is more exploitable.

everything done with an SF build can be done with an OF build permanent spell protection is permanent spell protection every OF build has unlimited energy most of them getting anywhere from 5-2 energy gain every time they get hit with an attack the 25e to cast the skill and the -2 regen doesn't really matter when you have unlimited energy as long as your in aggro of something. OF > SF in every way but one and that's mobility that's why roles that need mobility are run by a sin and roles that need power are run by an ele. also SB can do pretty much anything OF and SF can but there no reason to run it since there's no real reason to ever use any monk skills other than SB. All 3 of these skills can be made into permanent spell protection so you should really put them all on the same level.

btw take another look at SB spells don't fail on SB all spell protection was changed from "Spells Fail" to "cannot be targeted by spells" there is currently no spell protection in pve that spells will fail on.

In a real speed clear different spell protection is used differently SF can not handle any job like it previously could the damage cap has force SF sins to do more specialized roles in speed clears since their DPS is relatively low. However a ranger can bypass this downfall with WD (for a price, rangers require personal consumables to run the build) dealing a massive amount of damage, but this is only a viable switch when you are dealing with opponents that attack at range against a group of pure melee enemies both ranger and assassins become very useless very fast. Eles on the other hand make up for what they lack in mobility with power an Ele can buff their sliver armor and use other high damage skills to pretty much power through any healing or defenses a mob will have. depending on the job that needs to be done you will choose what one is best for it. In the end nerfing only one would only force another to pick up the slack if your gonna nerf one then you have to do it all.

furthermore if your talking invincible builds then take a look at ER builds as well most of them use a combination of ER stoneflesh and kinetic armor to not even need spell protection while maintaining constant healing and unlimited energy allowing these types of builds to take the most abuse out of any of the the previously mentioned builds. also they are the only builds that can not only make themselves next to invincible but the whole team as well with the ability to maintain 8 prot bonds. ofc these builds to have their own drawback and thats enchantment strips will be a problem but they can sustain massively ridiculous energy and health demands even being able to sustain energy while using mantra of inscriptions and not ever dropping it while having interrupts spammed on them.

also tanking builds that can tank roughly 70-100 enemies that if a normal build went 1v1 with any of them the player would lose. These are truly invincible builds. Most of these builds also include unlimited energy. If these builds are run properly then a person will never die while using one.

if your going to say invincible builds need to be nerfed then you cant just single out one skill or build since there is more than one skill that makes such builds possible. if you wanna make a nerf SF topic then say that from the start but if your gonna say invincible builds then include all of them. And unlike most of the people in this thread that never actually used any of these skills so they don't even properly understand the drawbacks and advantages of each individual spell, I actually know what I'm talking about since I actively do just about every speed clear in the game.

SF prohibs all classes except for assassins to join human teams for most of this games elite areas. Right right right?

Nerf

FoW:

3 Assassins, 1 Ranger, 2 or 3 damage dealers, either mesmers, or 100b wars and a Necro or Ritualists with DwG + SoS rit. There actually used to be a build around that used a SH ele that SOLO SPIKED EVERYTHING that the mt balled up. So, you got everything but dervishes and paragons that can SC FoW (PUGs usually also take a UA to heal)

UW:
3 eles, 1 ssin, 2 rangers, a Rit and a Mesmer.

DoA:
2 ssins, 4 mesmers, 1 Monk, 1 Ele.

Now, tell me again that only ssins can do endgame. In UW it's proven that they suck and can be replaced easily, in FoW the same. In DoA, we need their mobility and agility that eles don't have, because they aren't there to kill stuff, they are there to tank stuff, which is killed by the main team.

SF prohibits all classes except for assassins to join human teams for most of this games elite areas. Right right right?

Shut up and do some research.

Take out SF from all those builds, and see what kind of SC times youll get. Now take away ER bonders, OF, and SB. And you might actually get a balanced group working as a team. End game content should be a challenge. And I dont care how skilled you are or what gimmicks you use, completing those areas should take at least an hour.

I find it interesting that so many people complain that HM is too easy. Yet if you take SF from them they would cry about it and swear to never play GW again. Yeah, SC's with SF is alot of fun. So was Ursan. So is Godmode when I play Quake.

I dont hate SF, as I find it rather difficult to hate something as imaginary as a skill, and something that I also use alot myself. But, shouldnt skill balance come before personal feelings? Even if it takes us out of our comfort zone? Where do you draw the line on something being OP? DwG is OP, but not SF?

This was true, 4 years ago, even up to 3 years ago.. But standards changed, people don't want to spend their entire afternoon trying to beat UW, FoW or DoA with the risk of ending up with a total shit reward. And btw, most PUG UW should be happy to finish in ~50mins (actually, PUG UW should be happy to finish would be the correct sentence) and I see more than enough DoA's that still take ~50mins cause of people being bad. It's not an hour, but close enough.
And now don't start talking bout records, because we might do DoA in 25 on those runs, but we actually spend 3h+ doing it. It's nicknamed /resign speedclear for a reason..


DwG is OP as a damage skill, SF is OP as a tanking skill. That's like comparing an apple to a cow. They have nothing to do with each other.

Why is it all about the rewards? Can people not do elite areas for the fun and challenge of it? That's why I do them, if teams I am on happen to die, I will still have a good time because I am with the people I enjoy playing with. The level of greed in this game has escalated to new heights because of speed clearing.

Old topic is old. If you say the people who use SF will just have to deal with it if it gets nerfed, doesn't that mean people who complain about SF should deal with it the way it is now? That is most certainly not what is happening.

True that. People got greedy and stupid - their intelligence has sunk to abysmal levels that they cannot see SF and Shroud of Distress are overpowered skills.

Indeed, sin skills need to be toned down, plus other classes will need more love, especially ele (in HM), para, derv and even ranger (in HM).

I dont like the invinci skills but if people have fun playing them good for them.

I'm dealing with it very well. I got my Dhumm's Soul Reaper, Armbraces, maxed titles from Speed Booking, lots of gold and ectos from selling event items that I farmed from vaettirs, sold a couple nice endgame items like a BDS and froggy scepter, all thanks to my buddy SF. Until its nerfed I'm going to keep making more money than I know what to do with.

Just because I use SF alot, doesnt mean I dont think it's OP.

Just a question. Was anybody here succeeded in finalizing UW HM, not by a chance, but regularry, without a SF/OF/SB tank in team?

It's possible to do all quests with 6 heroes ( realy , when you know how to control them it's easy..) but it takes some time and dhuum is kinda relying on luck... That's the same for normal pugs anyway... all know approximately to complete 10 quests , but when it comes to beating dhuum....

About comparaison between DwG and SF : do we even have to debate ? SF makes you invincible , thus even if you deal 5 damage per hit you will still end up killing ; You deal big damage with DwG but you can still drop fast too....
And anyway , DwG aren't used to complete FoW in 20mn or to ru nany dungeon in less than 15mn neither...

But once again , as i told , you can't blame people for abusing the best( maybe the only ) way to get money in game.... Assuming someone discovered a way to solo slavers exile in 30mn with mesmer ( just an example ) , everyone would for sure play it ...

I did it with Ursan HURR DURR.

Seems to me that people have some moral objection to do content that is intended to be difficult easily. As far as i'm concerned 55 monks and Shadow Form tanks are examples of the player ingenuity in creating effective build which is at the heart of what makes Guild Wars a good game.

It's the fact that players can take a few skills which aren't particularly godlike in themselves, I mean SF is only ever used for that one purpose, and combine them in such a way which destroys PvE that makes Guild Wars fun.

This build requires Consumables to operate properly.