Nerf Invincibuilds

Deadly Paradox.

This is excatly what i really hate, nothing against you dude...but SF in this case it's ruining the fun of playing.

I don't say playing with SF isn't funny, it can be really hard in some areas, but the speed clears are really making everything so "industrial". Industrial farming, industrial dungeons, industrial end-game areas.

I'm still convinced that SF is not OP, but i must recognize it has ruined a bit the fair gameplaying in high-end areas.

This game need some renewal in the deep of its best: high-end areas.....

High-end areas are easier with SF-based builds than regular missions....where you actually have to kill things to get objectives done.

Ban skipping on high-end areas.

I'm not sure what your point is. Mine was that the meta builds in context are not actually working if they need cons. It's a bit arrogant to think it's entirely player ingenuity that makes SC work when multiple layers of consumables erase difficulty with no strategy or skill needed.

if somone bitches about SF needing changed they have soem things to think about:
u can get hit
u take damage
u can be touched
and soulrending shriek still hurts

Mesmers actually have a better chance in doa withthe damn mesmer spike...so woudl u rather have SF left as is or changed to be better cause i doubt a damn warrior will be able to tank doa.

so...STFU about SF u use it whether u realize it or not. DOMINO EFFECT

Actually, originally, when the first team builds came out, W/E's were the first DoA tanks

But yeah, drop it, it ain't gonna happen and this QQing has been lasting for the last 3 years..

Wow.

"Games should be fun guys! I'm going to nerf everything that you use, now start having fun!! WHY AREN'T YOU HAVING FUN?!"

Why do all these idiots think that nerfing skills will suddenly make everyone else play the way you want them to?

Let's assume that speed clears are magically removed from the game. Will people play the way you want then? Hell no, you'll just have team-build elitism with all groups still wanting "optimal runs".

And let's be clear here: I don't speed clear. I've NEVER done a single speed clear. However, I don't live in a pipe dream.

If that's the case we shouldn't have any skill updates at all. It's taking away people's fun by making skills better or closer to where other skills are.

The heavy armor warrior DPS/spikes and the "ninja" archetype tanks. Just...putting that out there. Yeah.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/5633/gw229u.jpg

I lol'd at this. Obviously someone didnt play DoA when it wasnt overrun with the current meta.

Wow, didn't know about that one.. Originally it was obby flesh warriors, also duo tanking I seem to remember, but it's all pretty blurry.. That was the time between DoA release and EotN coming out and Ursan taking over.. Good times, good times.. Also, pre cons, and those invincibuilds were pretty capable of holding up in there, so there's an answer to something I forgot to react to earlier..

Vanquishing in HM with H/h:
~30 minutes per run, no failure, no people lagging out
Easy as ****
~1.5K Reward guaranteed

Doing UW in HM with pugs, using "balanced" build:
~3 hours per run (Including group formation time, washroom breaks, explanation time, etc.), tons of failures, people lag out and ruin runs.
At least 4 times as difficult compared to vanquishing

Theoretical reward of UW HM, pugs, "balanced" build:
1.5k x 6 times as long (compared to vanquishing) x 4 times as hard + 4k bonus for tolerating random drop outs = 40k

Real reward of UW HM, pugs, "balanced" build:
An average of 2 ectos per run + junk = not even 20k, especially taking into account the higher failure rate. The rare chest items that most people never get doesn't come close to making up the difference.

EoTN dungeons are even worse when it comes to reward/risk ratio. Fix this and they can nerf all the "invincible" build they want.

Even though I have been playing this game since the birth of Factions, I don’t have an invincibuild, I don’t do speed clears. I don’t have Dhumm's Soul Reaper, Armbraces, or any maxed titles from Speed Booking. Heck, I don’t even do that much PvP and I haven’t even gotten around to exploring the Underworld yet, let alone the many available dungeons.

All I do is play through the game, joining PUGs when necessary, basically, trying to enjoy the game.

Yet, every time something gets nerfed because some QQer has a temper tantrum and astonishingly enough, gets listened to, it affects me and destroys my build, even though I do not participate in the issues under debate.

Nerfing is the biggest hindrance to my enjoying of the game, and as I said, I’m not involved in the issues that cause the QQers to begin shouting, “It’s not fair! I’m not as successful as he is! Waaa! Waaa!” If you want to talk about what’s fair, I’d say that the continuous nerfing that affects the average player is what’s not fair.

This is my first online game so I’ve stuck with it and I move through it slowly and at my leisure. But I want to know if other online games are nerfed as much as GWs, because I really can’t take the nerfing. I’d much rather play an online game that doesn’t have so much nerfing. I haven’t looked into it yet, but if I had already finished GWs with all of my accounts and characters, I would have.

Are you sure the average player maintains SF, OF or earth tanking, etc.? What general builds of yours have been destroyed by nerfs? There's only a hand full of skills that need to be dealt with. I can agree that too much nerfing is a bad thing, but these are far from average skills.

I agree, too much nerfing is a bad thing. Like Xiaquin said, there really arent that many skills that need to be toned down. Many might disagree, but I feel there are plenty of skills out there that deserve a buff for PvE, just to keep up with the power creep. Over nerfing skills makes for dull game play. Over buffing skills makes the game too easy. So it really takes a mixture of both if balance is your goal.

I created this thread to ask for skill balance across the board, and to encourage balanced teams that play together and contribute equally to the group. Not to punish players like yourself. Also, you may be thinking of the PvP nerfs that overflow into PvE, that sometimes hurts PvE builds. A nerf to SF should not effect you.

Yes it would.

First of all, it would make all my ecto's worth at least 10k/ea overnight. Which isn't a bad thing, obviously.
Second of all, it would f*ck up DoASC till we find a new tank build, and I love DoA tanking, so they would take away my favorite part of the game. They would totally f*ck up the last thing I have to do in this game: make tons of money exploiting easy ways to farm DoA.
Ok, that and chest running, but if they nerfed SF, chest running would get a shitton harder all of a sudden too, so I couldn't do the two things I have left to do in this game, because I've done everything besides high-end PvP, which I'm not touching with a 20 foot pole this late in the game, although I'm ever tempted to.

This, to me and to a lot of other players in this game. Ok, SF is a tad overpowered, but it's only overpowered at tanking with bonds and running places, for every other thing it's useless, something we've established on the first page of this thread, so it doesn't really need nerfing. The way it used to be, you could roll a SF dagger spam in PvE and be awesome at every part of the game, because you could keep it up with Deadly Paradox, and you could deal as much damage as you liked, energy management was a must though.

Now, if you run SF in general PvE, you'll soon notice that you'll suck ass..

Leave the SCs to the SC'ers and the balanced stuff to the balancedway players. I'm not asking to nerf anything you're doing, am I? Besides DwG, but f*ck that topic, we ain't bringing that up again.

How are you a good player if you cannot adapt to changes? Wouldn't it be nice if SF got nerfed, and you guys found the next big team build for DOASC? Wouldn't this keep you all going longer in gw1 and bring more bragging rights? Or are you just afraid that you will have suck ass times like the regular Dwg'ers?

Nop, in fact, if only SF gets hit with the nerfstick, we'll most likely just go back to OF tanks, who used to do the job ~1,5 years ago. They did/do the job just fine, it's just that ssins are better at it, because they're more mobile, shadow stepping all over the place is cool, and if you get stuck as an E/Me in big room foundry, well, let's just say if that happens, you're f*cked. You could run E/A, with OF, geomancers, stone striker, IAU, Stoneflesh (which in fact is an utterly useless skill in DoA) Dark Escape and Death's Charge or Heart of Shadow and shit, you can take both and still have an open slot, in fact, you're be more survivable than ssins, you'd just have incredible energy management issues in City, and in general without bonds. The thing that kills off OF by far the most is it's -2 energy regen and 25e cost. You'll have to rely on Balth Spirit to keep going, and in foundry and city, you have constant QZ's up, which means your OF costs you a nice little 32,5e, not really great tbh.

Assassins are more overpowered cause they can run off and solo pull shit, the only places they rely on bonds are when doing big pulls like in front of city and foundry big room, and f*ck, I've well established on multiple occasions that even those can be tanked for quite a while without bonds. It's just that your energy isn't really helping out, QZ's up your ass and there is no seed in case of a "OH SHIT". You can hold out in big room foundry for at least 5-10 minutes before energy starts becoming a real issue, it's just more comfortable standing there, yawning at the 50 bazillion titans trying to facestomp you, and utterly failing.

Now, if they nerfed every invincibuild, meaning SB, OF and SF, you'd have yourself a little problem, because then, SCs would be impossible, and it's been well established that that is what keep most ppl in this game atm, are speedclears. Or, keeping most noob players motivated, i.e., by having the ambition to become a speedclearer themselves. Anet isn't gonna take away one of the few things that keep most ppl around, and they are especially not gonna do it ~6 months before their new shiny game comes out. Cause that would mean bad marketing.

Also, don't try to belittle me, or try to talk into my elitism (which is clearly there, and I am well aware of it) to try to let me cave in or something. It won't work.

Is this proven? I see players all over doing different things, probably for HoM, so I'm having trouble believing that.

Either way, a skill that blocks spells should handicap the player to a reasonable extent (with some exception). If not, maybe perma spell (targeted) immunity should be removed from play.

If you dont like SF dont use it and do balancedway when i look at this thread i think that some people that want SF to be nerfed want just to get more money on ectos and high end items. I wonder what would happen if SF would get nerfed. Think of obby armor for example how do you expect to get it if ectos would be almost 10k. How long u think it would take to get all 120 ectos and shards with balanced way groups? And btw u can never play a game wrong they made all the skills so we can use them to make the game fun and i like tanking with sf

Just in case you didn't realize, FoW armor was actually something special back when that was the case.

Wait, doesn't that mean we should love invincibuilds? I mean, Obby armor looks atrocious in general.

1. I've seen some players who can get quite a few without speed clearing, so I'd say you can get them just fine.
2. If skills exist for a reason than we might as well not have any skill updates. That argument doesn't work.

Chest running isn't hard at all without SF I've done a couple thousand that isn't boreal station without it so kind of an invalid argument for keeping SF the way it is.

Using a skill in the game is now called abusing it? Abusing would be cloning items when duping was around, this is just.. well you know.. using a skill maybe?
You people have to stop acting all high and mighty. It's you that bring this old topic up over and over again, like a little kid asking his mom "Now? What about now? Please, now!"

Maybe ANet should let players use the skill "Base Defense", and all those who hate using it can simply don't use it and do balancedway ... it would make ectos worth like 100g each and everyone who wants obby armour can have it, too.

It goes without saying that Shadow Form is completely and horribly overpowered and should be nerfed. Some people just don't get it

So you are saying that if ecto price is high, then the economy is doing just fine? Well, then that just proves the point that we don't need a nerf. Ecto has been mostly between 8 - 9k each for past few weeks. Maybe none of us get it, both SF users and haters, and maybe we should all just shut up?

I didn't say that. I said that if Ectos are worth like 100g each then everyone who wants obsidian armour can have it. I don't see how you arrived at the rest of your post.

Well, it seems you are criticising how SF supposedly brings ecto prices down. If not, then I don't know what you are talking about.

Ignore the second part then:

Maybe ANet should let players use the skill "Base Defense", which makes Shadow Form and all other invincibuilds unnecessary. All those who hate using the skill "Base Defense" can simply don't use it and run balancedway. Something wrong with this idea? Or do you support it?

Oh, and while ANet is at it, they could give us the skill "The Mad King's Influence" and ... I don't know ... a 100% increased movespeed stance that can be kept up indefinitely, as well as a skill that triples all drops by foes killed.

Heck while ANet is at it, they could give us a NPC that gives you any item you want. Wouldn't that be good? After all, all those who prefer not to "abuse" skills / NPCs already in the game can simply not talk to that NPC!

QFT. To me its not that SF is overpowered, its that everyone finally discovered that balancedway is underpowered with the current outdated loot structure.

So basically you said SF is overpowered, but you suggest they put a skill even more overpowered? Why not just leave it at SF, which is middle ground?

Edit: also, the post above mine is exactly my view on this - "QFT. To me its not that SF is overpowered, its that everyone finally discovered that balancedway is underpowered compared to the loot structure the game was set up."

SoOsc takes about 15 mins to do with most teams, and the chance of getting a BDS is tiny. The prices of BDS are still at around 100e for.. let's say, a q10 Heal?
I think that's a good price for one of the rare skins to be, because it's not so cheap that everyone can afford it, and not overly expensive that only the leet players can get it.

I'm saying that given the current arguments for Shadow Form not being overpowered, you could make a "compelling" case to include even more overpowered skills like Base Defense.

That's showing you how shallow the current arguments for keeping Shadow Form are. No, Shadow Form is not middle ground. It's overpowered.

If it's so overpowered, then why do so many Pugs of speedclears that use SF fail? It's not a matter of just "use SF, be invincible". You have to know how to use all the others skills properly and learn your role.

Are you proposing we balance for bad players instead of good players, and that we should pull the people who decide on game balance from RA instead of the mAT winners?

You have to make it balanced for the majority, not doing so would be incredibly elitist.
Since a good chunk of people I see everyday during Pugs clearly don't cope too well with Terra builds, I'm just saying it's probably better to leave it how it is now. Well, that is all I have to say, no more from me.

Edit: why should mAT winners have the right to choose skill balances? That's so overly elitist it's not funny, specially since SF affects them very little.

I think if DShot interrupts a 3/4s cast spell from outside of aggro bubble range, it should instantly kill the target.

A good chunk of Rangers I see everyday are unable to interrupt 1s spells even from point-blank range, so the majority of players won't be able to do this. Since we should balance for the majority (not doing so would be incredibly elitist) most players won't be affected and the skill remains balanced.

Ridiculous. As always, the arguments for keeping Shadow Form the way it is are extremely shallow.

Guild Wars players are amongst the best in role-playing games skill level. I've never met a pure RPG player coming into GW that find the game easy. I find the concept of balance in GW PvE ridiculously arbitrary, because there's nothing to actually compare it to.

I could easily compare GW PvE to Diablo 2 and suddenly the game is way too difficult and need to be adjusted easier. Other people compare it to Starcraft and its now too easy.

The best way? Balance it according to the skill levels of the majority of players that are attracted to your games.

I don't see how it's shallow? This game has millions of people that play it, Anet wants to keep the majority happy. It's as easy as that. Also, ranger interrupts are terrible compared to mesmer interrupts, so maybe they do need to change that?

Edit: to the poster above me, that's exactly how it works. If SF hasn't been nerfed, it's because Anet knows it will do more harm than good to the player base.