Should heroes be able to use PvE-skills?

With the recent 7 heroes update, should this debate be opened (again)?

Initially, Anet wanted players to keep an inherent advantage over heroes by disallowing them to use certain -really- powerfull skills. However, the closer we come to the end of GW (You can deny it all you want), the lesser important game balance (In every aspect) becomes.

So aside from maybe a couple of technical issues (Do heroes have title tracks?), is there any reason not to allow heroes to bring 3 PvE skills per bar anymore? The game is broken beyond repair anyways. Every weapon, rune and crafting material has gotten farmed into oblivion.

With recent steps, Anet has shown they're willing to make the last breath a good one and thus GW 2011 should start to focus on fun rather than balance ethics.

When you're a team of friends (or family) looking for that last SY paragon player to go into UW, why should you get forced to wait for hours on end when you could've just taken a hero with the same bar.

With this 7 hero update, it would be a welcome extra to finally be able to use PvE skills on those heroes, there simply isn't a reason anymore not to have this.

I feel like this game is already easy with 7 heroes. PVE skills would be overkill.

PvE skills are for humans and groups of humans. Take other players if you want more PvE skills. Duuurr.

You just got a 7 hero party and you still want more?

For the love of.....

Definitely not.

I don't play with other players most of the time except for DoA/Deep/Urgoz but I don't think we should be thrown stuff like this. Or else everything will roll through PvE and it's zero challenge.

E.G. Bring a few hexes and run a 4-5 Me/N heroes, bring Cry of Pain, Necrosis and Ether Nightmare and monks and watch everything explode in a blink of an eye.

Not my cup of tea(m).

What's the sense in arguing: "PvE skills are for humans". That's not an arguement, that's a statement.

Why wouldn't heroes be able to use PvE skills nowadays?

I also never asked for the 7 hero team update, I much rather would've had a 3 hero with PvE skills team so I could actually play elite areas with my girlfriend without having to pug. (And pugging in elite areas is still a major annoyance)

But from what I can draw from posts here: Being able to solo PvE HM easymode is alright, but doing it a bit faster isn't anymore?

Where exactly does the line lies?

If you told people from 2005 you once will be able to run a full hero team, they'll react in a similar way you guys are acting now (probably even more extreme) saying that it would completely break PvE.

But then I questions: Isn't PvE already completely broken as a result of those PvE skills and the fact you can play fully solo now in 7 hero teams? Why draw the line at "7 hero team" and not "7 hero PvE skills team"?

I'm curious as to how this concensus has been created that a "7 hero team" is A-OK all of a sudden whereas PvE skills would make it "overpowered".

Well heros do gain benefits for your title tracks it's a little overkill I think for them to have pve skills except summon spirits give em that one and id be content

I feel that PvE skills are just too powerful. It would not bother me at all if they were completely removed from the game, and I would rather they were removed than spammed across every hero/Merc in the game. The game is getting too easy as it is.

I just cleared all of DoA (except for mallyx) with 7 heroes...Lets not get crazy now. Pve skills are fine as is.

No definitely not.

Its ridiculously easy enough now, no need for PVE skills on heroes.

PVE skills on players only is the only thing that will keep people playing together for end game content and speed clears, theres no need to kill that off.

I think that with how powerful 7 heroes and normal skills are, that I wouldnt care at all if there were no PVE skills in the game.

Real players shouldnt be able to use PvE skills.

Seriously, are there not enough OP non-pve skills to abuse?

A 7 hero team is only ok because you can build interesting and innovative group build dynamics instead of using the default builds on henchmen (which have also been updated but still aren't as dynamic)

Adding PvE skills to heroes just makes the entire concept ridiculous. And I've been playing fully solo with 3 heroes and others have done it with dual accounts. And PvE isn't completely broken with the PvE skills, it did end up having more PuGs because of needing PvE skills.

Ok, if you'd like heroes to have PvE skills, then why not let enemies have them too? It would be fair game after all. And wait if that's the case, we might as well just move all these skills into the primary class attributes.

More is good, but your suggestion really sounds like overkill. Not every PvE skill, but for most.

Monsters do have PvE skills lawl. Ever heard of Impossible odds, etc?

Yea I agree.

As an example, Panic > Every PVE only skill.

'Nuff said. Add a panic mesmer to your 7 hero party, rofflestomp everything in the whole game.

I honestly don't see what the problem would be. Most of the skills aren't all that impressive, and ai has never been able to use the vast majority of skills as well as decent players can. Sure, the ai shines in a few areas, but those areas are basically "boring maintenence" or "inhuman reaction time", and along with the inhuman reaction time on interrupts comes the "horribly wasted interrupt" aspect.

People that talk about "making things too easy" stike me as rather odd. Folks have been steamrolling pretty much everything in pve for years. Giving heroes pve skills isn't going to change much of anything as far as I can see.

Not to mention if you think something's too easy, you can always handicap yourself to make it more difficult. Bring fewer party members, leave some skill slots blank, don't spend all your attribute points, there's all sorts of interesting ways to increase the challenge if you feel the need.

Personally, all I'd really use it for is having morgahn yell "finish him!" every now and then for the lulz.
*shrug*

One reason would be that it would make title grinding harder. Not harder for difficulty, but harder for things like guardian, vanquishing, and many others because those players will have less people to play with. Not everyone is going to be hero only.

Less people to play with would be less reason to log in and do anything.

And so my question still stands:

If Panic and such already completely break the game, why not allow us to run PvE skills aswell?

Lolredicilousoverpowered is ok, but lolredicilousomgoverpowered isn't?

Why does the line get drawn there, as people pointed out there is enough non-PvE skill builds out there that already completely stomp PvE.

I would love to be able to bring a SY paragon hero, why not allow me to?

@ Cuilan: Agreed, but what about 7 hero teams then? Do you really believe people wouldn't already just go with heroes instead of players?

7 heroes AP'ing EVAS would be legit.

Not, "no." But "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

Guild Wars doens't need any more "easy buttons." The more they add, the sadder this game becomes.

I don't know. As it was before update, heros were often filler. If there's less grouping, it would mean a much more dead game.

Duh, of course. I'm referring specifically to the ones we have. I'm sure you know how annoying it is having your PvE skills mimicked by the mobs in EotN.

What I was stating, as you conveniently misunderstood, is having SY! spammed by a White Mantle in WiK or Necrosis spike used on you by a Angorodon (not that they don't already rape us with their skill bar)

Honestly what more do you want with the 7 hero update the ability to insta kill something which is already what 7 heroes is....

NO!

They shouldn't, I doubt there's much debate. They would have to rebalance them for heroes and how many more frivolous balance changes do we need instead of unique updates?

lol asura scan on all heroes= never fail a vq

i agree with this

jeez these lazy arse so called gamers nowadays

Heroes do not acquire reputation for the associated title tracks. Also, no.

Really? Is this even a worthwhile question?...OFC NOT!

Because PVE only skills and consumables should never have been put into this game in the first place. I have said that since the day they came out.

They are completely pointless and not needed at all, particularly not with the PVE / PVP skill split which is a far better way of balancing the skills.

In the current game, PVE only skills is currently the only incentive that people who want to group up have in order to find other people to play with.

As much as I have always enjoy playing GW on my own with the AI, just being able to have my own custom group is all I've ever wanted. PVE only skills isnt anything that I've ever liked or supported.

We just got a 7-hero update and you want pve skills for them...?

I really don't see the point. This game is easy enough allrdy.

Logically the heroes would have the same title rank as the player. And no, this game isn't broken.
How would pve skills make it more fun for you? To make it all even easier than it allrdy is? >.<

If you need a SY enough to wait for it for hours, roll it yourself. Otherwise, just go without SY.

/NOTSIGNED

I'm not against giving each hero ONE single and unique PvE skill, as long as they get balanced and linked to their primary attributes.
If they have quests or missions that require these heroes, they could also get these sills unlocked as part of the reward from those missions. Or they could just come with the skill if their quests are also the quest to recruit them, like with Anton or Olias.
I mean things like:
- Some kind of healing skill to Gwen that target one other ally, to remind her healing times in pre-Searing with the flute, unlocked after you make her quest in the Northlands in EotN.
- A weaker version of Sniper Shot to Keiran. Comes with it.
- A version of Bear Form to Jora. Weaker, but she at least can transform. After the Curse of the Nornbear is lifted.
- A Summon Golem to Vekk that summons a golem that has only Energy Blast (To mimick the other 4 asura summons, one linked to each element), unlocked after you complete G.O.L.E.M with Vekk in the party.
- Corsair net for Margrid, after quest "You Can Run...".
- A weaker version of Golem boosters to MOX, once you finish the Zinn quest line.
- Something like the Kournan siege to Morghan, comes with it.
- For Olias, a skill that normally behaves exactly like Animate Bone Horror when there's nothing but enemy corpses around, but when targeting the corpse of a dead party member, it both resurrects the party member and animates a Flesh Golem at the same level as the dead party member, and takes +25 seconds to recharge.
- A 'Shard of Archemorus Spear" item spell for Xandra. A skill that creates a bundle that works like the spear, charging with deaths around, but with a much weaker effect. Complete Haunted.
- A call to the mists spell for Razah to move spirits around, similar to Summon Spirits, but without healing them. Comes with it.
- A triple sword stance for Anton, that makes his next 1..5 dual attacks deal 3 strikes instead 2. Comes with it.
- A Shadow Clones spell for Zenmai, that creates 1..4 spirit(so they can't be target of hexes and several conditions) copies of herself that follow her and attack any enemy she attacks, body blocking them, but that do not hit nor fail to hit with their attacks, and that cannot lose health normally, excepting from packets of 200 damage/healt loss/Life steal or more which kill them instantly, and that are 'dark-bonded' to her, so they take part of her damage. And once they are hit hit over 200 dmg or lose all health from reducing the damage Zenmai takes, they go 'poof', without triggering Soul Reaping. The skill would remain disabled while the clones live, and once they are all gone, the skill recharges.
- A weaker version of gaze of the lighbringer for Jurah, that can only hit up to 4 enemies. Complete Puzzling Parchment.
- A long-lasting "Perform" stance for Norgu, that gives the party +1 morale bonus every 120 seconds, and then ends. Complete Summertime for Bokka.
- A "Pull a Goren" stance for Goren, that gives him 50% block chance, and that ends if knocked down, but knocks down adjacent enemies when it ends that way. Complete Goren's Stuff: Part 2.
- A Tactical Advice enchantment for Dunkoro that he uses in an ally, he would 'talk' when he uses it on an ally like Miku does with enemies in HotN, yelling "Stay close to <charname>!!" and those adjacent to that ally with the tactical advice on get 25..50% more divine favor effect on them when they are target of his spells.
- Royal protection for Tahlkora. An enchantment that works like Guilt, but on an ally. The next foe that casts on that ally fails, and Tahlkora steals energy from them. Complete Tihark Orchard.


These are just examples and some may be overpowered, so they should have to be balanced to be weaker than player's PvE skills, and they should be limited to ONE in their skillbars.

You know, more for lore and distinction than for power.

But what about mercenaries?
For those, I'd let players pick one of the PvE skills the character unlocked, and they'll get a version of it that is weaker(with attribute 20 it would be like 80% of the title track), and linked to their primary attribute instead to the title track, but only ONE.

they would prob use your rep. but yea hell no x infinity

PvE skills for all heros? all 7 will have PI, YMLAD, Summon Djinns/Muraat etc.

no offense, but the game is made easier already with 7 heros. If you need PvE skills on your heros, you're missing the point of the game...i.e. creating fun builds, play with friends and face challenges.

Yes because it would be so much fun and no becuase it would destroy the economy, ruin teamplay (Thats almost done) and increase the amount of complaining exponentially.

Mine would all have an asuran summon, a pet, and ebon assassin for the fun of it.

What a huge army.

PvE skill stopped meaning anything once the skill split happened really. The only PvE skill that would even matter on hero AI in Save Yourselves, which is a job a single player can do anyway. PI is nothing to write home about aside from bosses either, again extra copies don't add much, and it's not very far from calculated risk. Well SoS would like vamprism but that bar already has 4/5ths of its power as is. It's broken but not really much more than anything else, hardly matters at this point.

guildwars is on its last leg if you are still playing atm i think it's for one of two reasons you are getting those last tittles for hom/gwam for gw2/you are new

dont see how this could hurt any of those two groups

Depending on how 'new' you are, PvE skills wouldn't matter much to you.

If you're going for the last few titles, you'd already have played most of the content without having PvE skills so that wouldn't matter either.

Welcome to 2 years ago with 2 people and 6 heroes (except my party has more pve-only skills than you and does mallyx). The only thing that changed is that 2 players can do urgoz/deep on their own.

There is absolutely no reason for heroes not use PvE-only skills - and they even get benefits from their humans owners like the lightbringer title and the eotn title benefits - other than Anet not wanting.

Are PvE only skills overpowered?

Sure - some are really overpowered.

But will my koss be a devastating imbalanced guy because it can use whirlwind attack (is whirlwind attack any better than Eremite's Attack?)? Or my hayda using spear of fury? Or a ranger hero with triple shot?

In my view if a skill is to powerful for a hero to use (with the exception of interrupts) than it is even more overpowered on a human.

Either remove PvE-only skills from game (wont happen) or tweak them and allow heroes to use them - it is ridiculous that if I want someone giving my warrior/sin/derv GDW I need a human to do it because it is overpowered on a hero...

Actually there are several good skills that wouldn't be considered top picks for the majority of the player base that would be great on heroes:

- Great Dwarf Weapon;
- All Ebon standards;
- Technobabble (much more useful than stupid PI - if you have a problem with boss just camp a melee with GDW on it)
- Whirlwind attack (is this skill any better than Eremite's Attack?) ;
- Triple shot;
- Necrosis;
- Mindbender;
- Tryptophan Signet.

Plus some that are staples in some builds, while not being ridiculous, that put heroes at an even greater disadvantage vs humans, like AoHM, Critical Agility, Vampirism, Summon spirits.

I would be happy if you could use only the profession pve-only skills, although I would miss GDW and Technobabble

And why do you need them with 7 other people?

You don't need either.

And look at the skill you chose - YMLAD is great but hardly any SC team uses it.

Summons, PI - blah!

And of course you disregard skills like:

-Black Powder Mine:
-Alkar's Alchemical Acid;
-Ear Bite;
-Snow Storm;
-Winds;
-etc.

Are these super powerful as well?
I would say some regular skills that heroes can use are way way better.

Look at some of the PvE only skills, especially the allegiance and sunspear ones, they are glue that held builds together from a time where splitting skills in PvE/PvP was a nono to Anet. Like 7 heroes was.

Skills are overpowered regardless of heroes being able to use them or not. It is just an artificial restriction from a time Anet thought it needed to cater to PUGs.

There are people that like to play alone. There are people that like to play with a friend or two. There are people that like to play with strangers. There are people that like to play with guildies. There are people that like to a bit of each.

All the arguments against PvE-only skills on heroes are the same as all the arguments against 7 heroes, all the arguments against heroes in the first place and all the arguments against henchmen.

Of course it will make the game easier for those that don't play in 8 people parties, just like 7 heroes made it easier for those that play alone but did nothing for those that played with another person and 6 heroes.

But as it is now it is easier for those that play with other people while if PvE only skills were allowed for heroes it would be the same difficulty to everyone.

Is it too easy? Then nerf the PvE-only and consumables and it would increase the difficulty to everyone.

Concluding, I see no PvE-only skills on heroes "boundary" as nothing more than an arbitrary decision like 3 heroes only or not splitting skills, that served a purpose in its time but that time has come and gone.