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Originally Posted by Apok
Still, "the embark beach build" has a better tone than "the 7 hero parties build"...
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Embark Beach: Complete Failure for Grouping
My New Name
Don Zardeone
Random observation:
Whenever I happen to be in EB, there's some noodle asking people how he can get back to where he was.
This means there are large amounts of people who don't know how to map travel.
Whenever I happen to be in EB, there's some noodle asking people how he can get back to where he was.
This means there are large amounts of people who don't know how to map travel.
thedukesd
Let's see:
- missing zc sign in embark forcing me to go temple to take it (i take all of them zm,zb,zv,zc i do them and then i get all the rewards at once) (missing zv sign in temple so if u want to take zv you have to go embark)
- large distances between npc that allow you to travel to mission outpost (it's actually faster to map travel 2 times and add 2-4 hero then to go in embark from some locations where you spawn to the npc that allow u to go to the mission outpost u want)
- there is no way to travel to non-mission outposts from embark
- lack of option to set nm/hm in party
Bad idea to implement a place were people should group to do missions and to allow people to have 7 heros in party. Result is what it's happening now in embark: if someone want to find people to do a party can't (even for zm people group in the zm outpost and not in embark...).
- missing zc sign in embark forcing me to go temple to take it (i take all of them zm,zb,zv,zc i do them and then i get all the rewards at once) (missing zv sign in temple so if u want to take zv you have to go embark)
- large distances between npc that allow you to travel to mission outpost (it's actually faster to map travel 2 times and add 2-4 hero then to go in embark from some locations where you spawn to the npc that allow u to go to the mission outpost u want)
- there is no way to travel to non-mission outposts from embark
- lack of option to set nm/hm in party
Bad idea to implement a place were people should group to do missions and to allow people to have 7 heros in party. Result is what it's happening now in embark: if someone want to find people to do a party can't (even for zm people group in the zm outpost and not in embark...).
Quantum Duck
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Don Zardeone
Whenever I happen to be in EB, there's some noodle asking people how he can get back to where he was.
This means there are large amounts of people who don't know how to map travel. |
Don Zardeone
my second account nooblet chars can't go to embark beach.. or .. aaahhhhhhh
that explains it
beginners will likely watch cinematics so imo there should be one that explains it
anyway, there's absolutely nothing in party search right now and I want to help a random noodle destroy the world :/
that explains it
beginners will likely watch cinematics so imo there should be one that explains it
anyway, there's absolutely nothing in party search right now and I want to help a random noodle destroy the world :/
GrimWizard
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Originally Posted by TheGizzy
Why the need to dictate how someone else is supposed to play the game? Why force someone into either playing the way you prefer (more people, less h/h) or have them not play at all?
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Of course, this discussion is a mute point with the 7 hero update. Looks like Anet finally admitted that the right way to play the game was solo after all. I guess that means all the people who enjoyed PUGs where doing it wrong, sucks to be them....
Missing HB
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Originally Posted by thedukesd
Let's see:
- missing zc sign in embark forcing me to go temple to take it (i take all of them zm,zb,zv,zc i do them and then i get all the rewards at once) (missing zv sign in temple so if u want to take zv you have to go embark) - large distances between npc that allow you to travel to mission outpost (it's actually faster to map travel 2 times and add 2-4 hero then to go in embark from some locations where you spawn to the npc that allow u to go to the mission outpost u want) - there is no way to travel to non-mission outposts from embark - lack of option to set nm/hm in party Bad idea to implement a place were people should group to do missions and to allow people to have 7 heros in party. Result is what it's happening now in embark: if someone want to find people to do a party can't (even for zm people group in the zm outpost and not in embark...). |
Moonstalker
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Originally Posted by Missing HB
You forgot to add that EB doesn't lead to elite missions nor to PvP outposts such as Codex... That kind of job they did is Fast Done Bad Done tbh...
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Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by Apok
Still, "the embark beach build" has a better tone than "the 7 hero parties build"...
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Lady Aranza
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Originally Posted by GrimWizard
This is not a live and let live scenario. People who choose to not use PUGs, for whatever reason, have a direct negative impact on the ability of other people to find PUGs, especially skilled PUGs. That is the simple fact. It's not personal it's just business.
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Lasai
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Originally Posted by GrimWizard
This is not a live and let live scenario. People who choose to not use PUGs, for whatever reason, have a direct negative impact on the ability of other people to find PUGs, especially skilled PUGs. That is the simple fact. It's not personal it's just business.
Of course, this discussion is a mute point with the 7 hero update. Looks like Anet finally admitted that the right way to play the game was solo after all. I guess that means all the people who enjoyed PUGs where doing it wrong, sucks to be them.... |
It is a trend you can't fight. I, personally, am glad to see forced grouping falling out of favor. It is a simple choice now.. you can still PUG.. but, it is a choice.. you just lost the pool of people pugging because they HAD TO.
I finished HOS today in far less time than I would have taken just trying to explain to a pug why I don't use kegs. no probs, no deaths, and my heros did exactly what I wanted.
Oh and I love Embark. I go there to put my hero groups together, set up things, and then travel with my group intact.
Missing HB
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Originally Posted by Moonstalker
Why would you need to zone to a PvP place from EB when you just open your map and it's right there? That's faster than walking to an NPC anyway.
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You know , if you can VISUALLY see that people are looking for group in GvG or codex , then they will know they can get opponent and won't waste 1 hour w/o getting anything
UnChosen
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Originally Posted by Lasai
Being forced to group is declining in popularity throughout the entire industry. You cannot blame other people for simply making a gamestyle choice. Gaming is more and more geared to the casual player, and the bulk of those seem to prefer a solo option, for many reasons.
It is a trend you can't fight. I, personally, am glad to see forced grouping falling out of favor. It is a simple choice now.. you can still PUG.. but, it is a choice.. you just lost the pool of people pugging because they HAD TO. I finished HOS today in far less time than I would have taken just trying to explain to a pug why I don't use kegs. no probs, no deaths, and my heros did exactly what I wanted. Oh and I love Embark. I go there to put my hero groups together, set up things, and then travel with my group intact. |
The only exceptions are areas where humans can exploit splitting mechanics (speed clears) and areas that are designed around tanking gimmicks (DoA) or areas with a lot of AoE, because that's the only significant weakness of AI.
In a normal situation:
100% Perfect guild groups > Synergized heroes > Casual guild group > Unsynergized PvX heroes > Good pugs > Random heroes/hench > average pugs > The trash pugs...When it comes to total efficiency, including group formation time.
Pugging right now is as much of a choice as choosing a $100 meal and an identical but free meal. When I'm guaranteed to come out ahead by using heroes most of the time there's no reason for me to group.
Its kinda funny how an online RPG designed around "teams" have stuff that actively discourage multiplayer and has no grouping incentives at all. Meanwhile, Diablo 2, a game designed around single player, actually has a drop bonus for every additional person in the group....go figure.
Lasai
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Originally Posted by UnChosen
Its kinda funny how an online RPG designed around "teams" have stuff that actively discourage multiplayer and has no grouping incentives at all. Meanwhile, Diablo 2, a game designed around single player, actually has a drop bonus for every additional person in the group....go figure. |
You cant prop up the declining popularity of pugs by bribing players to do so. Even hard core group centric games like EQ2, which does give undoubtedly the best gear/loots to groupers, have come up with alternate solo questlines to keep the casual gamers interested and playing and a means to progress.
UnChosen
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Originally Posted by Lasai
Didnt this game launch with NPC henchmen? Designed around teams yes, but human groups.. were always just an option.
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Always prefered having 7 heroes WITH some sort of grouping incentives to make up for the group formation time deficit...then its truly about choice without being gimped by choosing one way or another.
Right now,
7 heroes 30 minutes vanquish >>>>>>>>>> 7 humans 20 minute vanquish + 10 minutes group formation time + 5 minutes build tweaking.
Lasai
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Originally Posted by UnChosen
Henchmen were way weaker than heroes. At that time human parties were the one with the massive advantage...which I didn't like either.
Always prefered having 7 heroes WITH some sort of grouping incentives to make up for the group formation time deficit...then its truly about choice without being gimped by choosing one way or another. Right now, 7 heroes 30 minutes vanquish >>>>>>>>>> 7 humans 20 minute vanquish + 10 minutes group formation time + 5 minutes build tweaking. |
I don't, personally, see time as a gimping issue..an inconvenience yes, gimp.. I don't see how.
UnChosen
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Originally Posted by Lasai
I soloed in Wow, EQ2, AoC and others. Even with no hero/hench available, it was my choice and the choice of many. Solo in those games means solo..and a lot of content is gated. Hench were a popular choice here.. it stands to reason that ANET allowed them to evolve over time into a better version.
I don't, personally, see time as a gimping issue..an inconvenience yes, gimp.. I don't see how. |
I KNOW there is a person that switched from pugging for zaishen quests to heroes simply because it saves them 2 minutes.
MithranArkanere
I think that what would make much more probable for people to PUG would be being able to have VOIP.
It's easier to tell the monk "Protective Spirit on me, I'm going in!" than writing it.
It's easier to tell the monk "Protective Spirit on me, I'm going in!" than writing it.
Krill
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Originally Posted by Lasai
Didnt this game launch with NPC henchmen? Designed around teams yes, but human groups.. were always just an option.
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Lasai
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Originally Posted by Krill
They were there as an option but the vast majority of groups only used the monk hench. Circa 2005 you literally could not finish the game using an all hench party; at least a few parts had to be done /w human teammates.
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Dark Saviour
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
I think that what would make much more probable for people to PUG would be being able to have VOIP.
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That said, the party system itself is my biggest obstacle to pugging... I don't like a system that necessitates I do nothing but stand around and wait until my team is filled. A system that allows me to start playing and let the team form while doing so is much prefered. Unfortunately, GW doesn't really lend itself to this. :-\
Krill
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Originally Posted by Lasai
What was different? I started with just Proph and completed it with hench, without runs, pre hench update. Did flagging actually make that much difference? Not disputing, just curious why so much harder.
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In short some missions and difficult areas had to be done with players and even then there was a high degree of failure. Henchmen were only for questing and the very desperate.
Wenspire
Don't forget only having alesia and no lina when we first got to the crystal desert. That was harsh...
chuckles79
I'd really like to see a link to the direct Z quest locations from EB. Rather than go to the individual travel agent it would be awesome if there was a Zaishen travel agent who could take you to the vq, zm, and zb outposts and/or closest location to them.
That would speed up PuGing and give people increased incentive to form the PuG at EB and not at the closest post.
That would speed up PuGing and give people increased incentive to form the PuG at EB and not at the closest post.
Why?
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Originally Posted by Krill
The AI skill usage was dumber, no flagging, power creep in skills the henchmen have (many skills were much worse) and huge power creep in the skills a player can bring. Also, in areas with Mursaat the henchmen were subject to full spectral agony which would quickly overwhelm the monk henches. When you compare the old Alesia & Lina to a more contemporary PvE backline of a nec rit and ER prot hero the difference is monumental.
In short some missions and difficult areas had to be done with players and even then there was a high degree of failure. Henchmen were only for questing and the very desperate. |
In reality, by the time factions came out, there was a growing dedicated bunch of players who chose to play the game alone.
And even now the end game areas of Prophecies are not the walk in the park some make them out to be. There are some players that are just flat out bad no matter what. I mean i can beat them all with just henchies, yet there are still people you try to help out in groups, and they just don't get it at all.
GrimWizard
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lasai
Being forced to group is declining in popularity throughout the entire industry. You cannot blame other people for simply making a gamestyle choice. Gaming is more and more geared to the casual player, and the bulk of those seem to prefer a solo option, for many reasons.
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Skyy High
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Originally Posted by GrimWizard
Except an MMO by it's very design is not for the casual gamers.
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GW, by its [sic] very design, is for casual gamers. Can only play for a few hours a week? That's fine, once you hit max level and grab a few elites, your character will be just as powerful as someone who's been playing for 10000 hours. PvE skills threw that away to some extent, but it doesn't take many ranks in any title track for the skills to be almost as good as someone who has max rank, thankfully.
Casual != bad. Casual = time limited. There's no reason an MMO without a sub fee should have huge, required timesinks to keep you playing, so there's no reason an MMO without a sub fee should be unfriendly to casual players.
Two other things:
1) Both casual and hardcore players PUG, and both use H/H. I'd wager that, proportionally, more hardcore players use heroes, so I have no idea why the two have been conflated here. Supporting solo options != "pandering to casuals".
2) Embark Beach was supposed to be the (huge) bone thrown to the PUG crowd. We see how much that's helped.
UnChosen
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Originally Posted by Skyy High
2) Embark Beach was supposed to be the (huge) bone thrown to the PUG crowd. We see how much that's helped.
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EVERYONE knew it was going to fail before it was implemented, especially after hearing about 7 heroes in the same update. Even before EB went live I thought it was going to help the solo players even more...and I was correct. Right now it just became a place for soloers to avoid having to see those horrible people in GToB.
Quote:
| 1) Both casual and hardcore players PUG, and both use H/H. I'd wager that, proportionally, more hardcore players use heroes, so I have no idea why the two have been conflated here. Supporting solo options != "pandering to casuals". |
How hard can it be to just copy the party drop bonus idea from other MMO and be done with it?
pingu666
its not really worked out much :x
couple of my ideas, possibly shrink the npc distances so there closer together
include toa and its mirrors
a jump to dungeon entrance would be great, and make dungeons slightly less tedious
skill trainer, if it was possible to have a trainer which showed core skills, or idealy skills from all campaigns, maybe section it off like in chanty of secrets?
if people quiting/getting disconnected where replaced by a hench that would be great
couple of my ideas, possibly shrink the npc distances so there closer together
include toa and its mirrors
a jump to dungeon entrance would be great, and make dungeons slightly less tedious
skill trainer, if it was possible to have a trainer which showed core skills, or idealy skills from all campaigns, maybe section it off like in chanty of secrets?
if people quiting/getting disconnected where replaced by a hench that would be great
Lodar Aric
Well it's been in the game now for a while so what are people's feelings about Embark Beach?
I've spent some time there and have hardly seen any 'LFG/LFP for missions', i've seen a few groups trying to form to do the Zaishen Vanquish but not many.
I've spent some time there and have hardly seen any 'LFG/LFP for missions', i've seen a few groups trying to form to do the Zaishen Vanquish but not many.
T1Cybernetic
I like many others love the idea but I think it's too little too late, And with 7 hero parties available, Grouping is a very distant memory to some including myself so Embark Beach is not the BIG hit it could once have been.
That being said it is still a great addition to the game
Just a little bit late.
That being said it is still a great addition to the game
Just a little bit late.
Dzjudz
Yeah it's usually 7 heroes or guildies. The few moments I actually PuG a group is usually made in the specific outpost, not Embark Beach. Only reason Embark is used is to get Zaishen Vanquish :s.
wilebill
Embark Beach could support PUGs or Guild groups better if quest rewards were doubled for groups not including heroes or hench. No idea how hard that would be to program.
To be blunt about it, going PUG is second best for most of us. We are not going to group with other players without some incentive. Better triple those rewards!
To be blunt about it, going PUG is second best for most of us. We are not going to group with other players without some incentive. Better triple those rewards!
SongOf
Good effort, but it failed.
Anet please read this carefully:
A LOT of players go to Greater Temple of Balthazar during their down time, even just to chat or organize inventory. 'Close' GToB (make accessible by NPC only, not map) to force people into Embark Beach- which makes more sense because it has every merchant related NPC anyway. This will at least expose more people looking for something to do to those that would like help.
Anet please read this carefully:
A LOT of players go to Greater Temple of Balthazar during their down time, even just to chat or organize inventory. 'Close' GToB (make accessible by NPC only, not map) to force people into Embark Beach- which makes more sense because it has every merchant related NPC anyway. This will at least expose more people looking for something to do to those that would like help.
Twysted Troll
I understand that some people prefer to pug... though i have to say most my pugging experiences have been less than enjoyable.
Those who champion Pugs should also think about immature players, annoying behaviour, rage quits, afkers, i lost count of how many pugs dissolved in the good old days when Thunderhead was a challenge, or the ignorant behaviour of individuals that would race ahead in Fow or UW just to cause party wipes.
I tried both pugs and H/H ... completed Proph with H/H because i did nt have the time needed to stand around and wait for a party to form only for people to afk or quit ...time after time ...
i will say i met a few really nice people who were added to my friends list and we would get together and really have fun but those people were few and far between, i was happy with the advent of heroes and since nightfall i play 90% of the time on my own....
i feel sorry for people who i see standing around trying to find DECENT Pugs like i used to... i get my heroes together go do the mish/ vanq or whaterver and when i go back i still see those people standing looking for Pugs ...
Pugging can be fun ... but most of the time its just a pain ....
Those who champion Pugs should also think about immature players, annoying behaviour, rage quits, afkers, i lost count of how many pugs dissolved in the good old days when Thunderhead was a challenge, or the ignorant behaviour of individuals that would race ahead in Fow or UW just to cause party wipes.
I tried both pugs and H/H ... completed Proph with H/H because i did nt have the time needed to stand around and wait for a party to form only for people to afk or quit ...time after time ...
i will say i met a few really nice people who were added to my friends list and we would get together and really have fun but those people were few and far between, i was happy with the advent of heroes and since nightfall i play 90% of the time on my own....
i feel sorry for people who i see standing around trying to find DECENT Pugs like i used to... i get my heroes together go do the mish/ vanq or whaterver and when i go back i still see those people standing looking for Pugs ...
Pugging can be fun ... but most of the time its just a pain ....
Bellatrixa
I like Embark.
I can make all my cons in one outpost.
Just sayin ^_^
I can make all my cons in one outpost.
Just sayin ^_^
Lasai
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Originally Posted by Bellatrixa
I like Embark.
I can make all my cons in one outpost. Just sayin ^_^ |
Lasai
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wilebill
Embark Beach could support PUGs or Guild groups better if quest rewards were doubled for groups not including heroes or hench. No idea how hard that would be to program.
To be blunt about it, going PUG is second best for most of us. We are not going to group with other players without some incentive. Better triple those rewards! |
Oh? And what if 4 friends got together and decided to go with heroes filling out the group.. or 6.. or 7.
Enhanced rewards for "special" groups is a huge can of worms.
Subsidizing a model that is no longer popular or attractive sounds like a government program to me.
enter_the_zone
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bellatrixa
I like Embark.
I can make all my cons in one outpost. Just sayin ^_^ |
Don Zardeone
I made some dance parties on the boat... But then I start singing Cher and everyone disappears 