Embark Beach: Complete Failure for Grouping - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

26 Mar 2011 at 16:35 - 161

Quote:

Originally Posted by SongOf

Anet please read this carefully:
A LOT of players go to Greater Temple of Balthazar during their down time, even just to chat or organize inventory. 'Close' GToB (make accessible by NPC only, not map) to force people into Embark Beach- which makes more sense because it has every merchant related NPC anyway. This will at least expose more people looking for something to do to those that would like help.

GtoB is fine and Zaishen quest parties form on location.

Even then, PuGs are still off-putting. Wait 5-10 minutes for a group that isn't 6/8 LF heals and sit around once yours becomes 6/8 LF monks for an eternity.

Apparently heroes can keep each other and the player alive, but not most pugs. I wonder where the problem is...

Legion Magnus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2005

Legion Magnus

W/

26 Mar 2011 at 17:06 - 162

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Circa 2005 you literally could not finish the game using an all hench party; at least a few parts had to be done /w human teammates.

Literally untrue, I, and I suspect others, completed Prophecies and the other campaigns with H/H only, except where required by the game (i.e. Vizunah Square). I have also subsequently PUGged some but generally found them to be unpleasant experiences, usually due to one or two immature players ruining the fun for others.

It was a personal choice (and occasionally a challenge) to complete the game with H/H only, but I believe a game like GW should offer fun choices to it's customers and not force you to play only one way. If some people prefer to PUG - great, but IMO they should not advocate forcing others to play via their preferred method (not that Krill was, but I've seen others who have). Some PUGs were fun, but I don't believe they should ever be required to play.

SongOf

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

26 Mar 2011 at 20:16 - 163

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

GtoB is fine and Zaishen quest parties form on location.

I'm not saying GtoB is for forming Zaishen quest parties, it never was, and in fact in my very first sentence I said the opposite. People that are looking for something to do/reorganizing after a mission are in GtoB, while where they should be placed is Embark Beach.

The idea is to condense where players are spending thier downtime. Embark Beach wasn't designed around Zaishen quests, it's for people who need regular missions but are never seen because those locations offer no reason to return once you beat them. Exposing them to as many people as possible is the only way EB will be useful.

pingu666

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

guildhall

[DETH]

27 Mar 2011 at 00:58 - 164

pugs would be much better if a afker or leaver was replaced by a npc, yesterdays vanq we had someone disapear within 5 mins, so we hadto go slower and more carefully, and one guy was saying "its too slow" and would aggro stuff when the team was all spread out, and that didnt go well. then he quit halfway through and that was pretty much the team done :/

most pugs ive been with recently have been really good however

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

27 Mar 2011 at 01:05 - 165

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legion Magnus

Literally untrue, I, and I suspect others, completed Prophecies and the other campaigns with H/H only, except where required by the game (i.e. Vizunah Square).

You sure of the difference between an "H/H" and a hench party?

All of prophecies and factions was doable with pure henches where those were allowed, (even TotPK) although some parts got very annoying. This isn't too surprising considering it's normal mode, which you can definitely beat with pure henchies in nightfall and eotn as well. Hard mode is a different story, but hey we didn't have hard mode back then.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

27 Mar 2011 at 01:15 - 166

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilebill

Embark Beach could support PUGs or Guild groups better if quest rewards were doubled for groups not including heroes or hench. No idea how hard that would be to program.

To be blunt about it, going PUG is second best for most of us. We are not going to group with other players without some incentive. Better triple those rewards!

I've been saying this ever since 3 heroes. It isn't about catering to a special group, its about eliminating the blatant advantage that Heros teams have by not having to wait in an outpost.

Even if human parties could have 8 PvE skills heroes would still be faster most of the time, simply because they're already 3/4th of the way through a mission by the time the human group forms and all skills are checked...etc.

novawhiz

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

A/

27 Mar 2011 at 02:14 - 167

If anet cared about people playing general pve together, they wouldnt have given us (seven) heroes, op pve-only skills, op normal skills, cons, etc,etc.

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

27 Mar 2011 at 02:45 - 168

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

I've been saying this ever since 3 heroes. It isn't about catering to a special group, its about eliminating the blatant advantage that Heros teams have by not having to wait in an outpost.

There's always been a shortage of player healers and, if my latest attempts at pugging were any indication, still an abundance of players not equipped to run but one build. Increasing the demand won't change how we want to play and it shouldn't.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

27 Mar 2011 at 03:43 - 169

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

There's always been a shortage of player healers and, if my latest attempts at pugging were any indication, still an abundance of players not equipped to run but one build. Increasing the demand won't change how we want to play and it shouldn't.

Well...duh. Humans need to buy all the skills for every single one of their characters and for every build they probably need to have a separate armor pieces (unless they want to waste perfect salvage kits). Then they have to get all their armor pieces infused so they won't get crushed in prophecies by mursaats. Another built in advantage of heroes vs humans.

Give all pugs 1000K...see how many human monks show up :P

I personally don't believe all of the "I'm anti-social" argument. Just go into ToA for the ultimate proof. Once there is enough incentives for actually grouping (ex. Speed Clear), an area immediately gets filled to the max. The point is that people who avoid grouping for the sake of avoiding pug is a minority...the REAL issue is that most people are avoiding grouping for the sake of efficiency.

Rites

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2010

Deep in the belly of Texas

R/

27 Mar 2011 at 05:03 - 170

The biggest mistake was creating embark beach AND enabling 7 heroes. they should have stuck with either one or the other

jimbo32

Site Contributor

Join Date: Aug 2008

Canada

Gentlemens Club [GC]

W/

27 Mar 2011 at 05:33 - 171

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

(Snipped)...The point is that people who avoid grouping for the sake of avoiding pug is a minority...the REAL issue is that most people are avoiding grouping for the sake of efficiency.

No offense, but that's a steaming pile of bullshit.

There's one piece of info that all the PuG-advocates seem to miss: There's a large segment of the GW population who would prefer not to play with strangers. Yet I see ideas popping up in this thread about possible ways to encourage (ie: essentially force) people into PuG'ing more often.

For every good PuG, it seems like there's at least three awful ones - whether it's some idiot who Kilroys and completely screws up every single pull, or a moron who griefs the rest of the team when he's the one being a nitwit, or a player who bails in the middle of a dungeon. Or whatever. The fact is that it seems like there's a disturbingly high number of GW players who have IQ's in the single digits.

It isn't about efficiency and it isn't about being anti-social. It's about preferring to play with actual friends rather than strangers. Friends and heroes are known quantities, and while I've met some very nice people through GW, I've also encountered just as many unpleasant folks. I'd prefer to avoid the latter, so I also avoid PuGs.

There's nothing wrong with people having different play preferences. People who prefer not to PuG shouldn't be punished or resented for it, and the same is true for those who enjoy picking up a group for zmissions or whatever. If you're a player who would prefer GW'ing with seven other humans, maybe you should look for a large PvE guild that organizes daily groups for zaishen quests and title hunting. Otherwise, Embark Beach is all you've got and (imo) it's an improvement over what we had before.

aelesia

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2010

27 Mar 2011 at 14:32 - 172

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legion Magnus

Literally untrue, I, and I suspect others, completed Prophecies and the other campaigns with H/H only, except where required by the game (i.e. Vizunah Square). I have also subsequently PUGged some but generally found them to be unpleasant experiences, usually due to one or two immature players ruining the fun for others.

Did you play back in 2005? Back then it was really hard to finish a mission with just henchmen in your team. It certainly wasn't impossible, but you had to be an extremely good player to do it. Most groups wouldn't even start a normal mission if they didn't have a full group of active players, because henchmen were far inferior to real players.

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

27 Mar 2011 at 16:05 - 173

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

the REAL issue is that most people are avoiding grouping for the sake of efficiency.

You still kind of proved the case against using them. My point was that people who are willing to pug would pug more if parties filled without the forced wait for healers. There's no changing that or human efficiency, so the idea is busted technically before its merits are examined, which jimbo has done.

And if you were to look at PuGs pre-heroes (heck, try pre-Factions) you'd see that even then they were extremely inconsistent even before the game was "dumbed down". I tried constantly to go with henchmen and only resorted to PuG when difficulty forced it.

Rites

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2010

Deep in the belly of Texas

R/

28 Mar 2011 at 06:06 - 174

Quote:

Originally Posted by aelesia

Did you play back in 2005? Back then it was really hard to finish a mission with just henchmen in your team. It certainly wasn't impossible, but you had to be an extremely good player to do it.

actually it was because of those experiences that I learned to play better. henchmen AI might not be the best, but at least it is more predictable than most PUGs

jray14

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

NC, USA

Ohm Mahnee Pedmay [Hoom]

28 Mar 2011 at 20:25 - 175

If ANet does the following, then I'll start using EB for more than just the ZV sign:

1. Make the zCoin givers/changers and rune traders as accessible as in GToB.

2. Scale rewards and uncommon drops with number of players in group.

BuD

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

Nunya

E/Mo

28 Mar 2011 at 21:45 - 176

Quote:

Originally Posted by jray14

If ANet does the following, then I'll start using EB for more than just the ZV sign:

1. Make the zCoin givers/changers and rune traders as accessible as in GToB.

2. Scale rewards and uncommon drops with number of players in group.

1. Has already been done. You can exchange you copper coins for silver & gold ones there. There is a rune trader in each of the 3 different campaign areas.

Not exactly sure what youre getting at in #2...loot scaling removed?

Mashiyu

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2010

E/

29 Mar 2011 at 00:10 - 177

#2 isn't about removing loot scaling - it's about adjusting loot scaling so that each player in a full player group can expect better loot than a player in a H/H group

pingu666

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

guildhall

[DETH]

29 Mar 2011 at 00:14 - 178

higher chance of "good" items with a player group i think...

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

29 Mar 2011 at 02:38 - 179

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbo32

There's one piece of info that all the PuG-advocates seem to miss: There's a large segment of the GW population who would prefer not to play with strangers. Yet I see ideas popping up in this thread about possible ways to encourage (ie: essentially force) people into PuG'ing more often.

It's not right to support the encouragement of hero'ing either then. It's natural for players to want their way of playing healthy. Heroes are always there, but things would need improvement much like how PvP is supposedly dying.

[???]Izzie[???]

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2010

Tyria

Dragons of the Rose

R/

29 Mar 2011 at 03:06 - 180

The only reason I'm not in Embark Beach looking for a group is because I don't need any missions or what not done. If I were still going for the Guardian titles or whatever you would def. see me there!

jray14

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

NC, USA

Ohm Mahnee Pedmay [Hoom]

29 Mar 2011 at 03:15 - 181

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuD

1. Has already been done. You can exchange you copper coins for silver & gold ones there. There is a rune trader in each of the 3 different campaign areas.

I never seem to warp in anywhere near the Z guys. Yep I'm lazy, but I do zquesting so often that I like to take 2 seconds rather than 15 to find them each time

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuD

Not exactly sure what youre getting at in #2...loot scaling removed?

As other posters have surmised, I'm implying better loot when playing with humans than when playing with the same number of H/H. Also higher zcoin/cash/xp payout for grouping with humans. I.e., make my pursuit of shiny things MORE efficient in the company of humans rather than LESS as it is now.

Rites

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2010

Deep in the belly of Texas

R/

29 Mar 2011 at 16:17 - 182

Quote:

Originally Posted by jray14

Yep I'm lazy,

that seems to be the issue with alot of players

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

29 Mar 2011 at 17:03 - 183

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

It's not right to support the encouragement of hero'ing either then.

There's no encouragement or extra reward to using heroes, they're completely optional and cause more stress to the player. Technically there's every reason to PuG, realistically there's every reason not to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jray14

As other posters have surmised, I'm implying better loot when playing with humans than when playing with the same number of H/H. Also higher zcoin/cash/xp payout for grouping with humans. I.e., make my pursuit of shiny things MORE efficient in the company of humans rather than LESS as it is now.

Your pursuit, in spite of inefficiency, is not centered around rewards, it's entirely around the inefficiency, ignorance and sometimes willful stupidity of random players. Increasing the rewards for enduring this doesn't improve efficiency, it just gives you a bigger cookie for putting up with it. /notsigned.

Gabs88

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2011

29 Mar 2011 at 17:18 - 184

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

There's no encouragement or extra reward to using heroes, they're completely optional and cause more stress to the player.

You know, if I could talk to both heroes and players while playing. I'd be shouting one heck of a lot more at players then heroes. The worst thing heroes ever seem to do is get stuck and stop doing anything. They dont bring silly builds and they never play really bad.

None of those are true for puggies

Horace Slughorn

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2008

Experientia Docet [OHX], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA], We Gat Dis [HRUU]

W/

29 Mar 2011 at 17:58 - 185

I love how most people on here think they are way better than other players in this game (pugs)

hint: you aren't

Miteshu

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2011

R/D

29 Mar 2011 at 21:42 - 186

Don't jinx it!

I completed FoW and DoA for the first time and I felt like a pro amongst mere mortals.

The problem with Embark Beach is, it isn't assessable enough. Although the Merchant and the Xunlai is close to each other.

Although you can call me lazy, it is easier to map travel than speaking to an agent, due to many obstacles like the cloth fence, high cliffs, stalls, npc, and such. Plus the spawning point is randomized. I don't want to be spawned next to the Norn.

The Travel agent amongst other travel agents is still too far. Making map traveling much more easier.

If the travel agent was next to each other, and every time I come back to Embark Beach, I should expect to stay in front of the travel agent and Zenchu.

This problem could easily be fixed if Embark Beach was just the ship in Embark Beach itself.

Another thing to add is instead of teleporting to the location, entering the mission could be done by talking to the traveler agent. Making Embark Beach a lot more useful.

Anyone saying Heroes are the reason is half true, but I don't even talk to the travel agent to map me anywhere.

pingu666

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

guildhall

[DETH]

29 Mar 2011 at 23:27 - 187

shrinking the size would help, of the actual npcs, and make it so you dont get stuck on EVERYTHING when you run to storage/merchant
why are newer towns so bad for that?

heros can sometimes play like complete asses too, ive had monks with a 30e+, full set of spells and not cast, or be very lazy. nothing particulary wrong with the build. I normaly use woh hybrid from pvx as they use that pretty well

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

30 Mar 2011 at 00:07 - 188

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

You know, if I could talk to both heroes and players while playing. I'd be shouting one heck of a lot more at players then heroes. The worst thing heroes ever seem to do is get stuck and stop doing anything. They dont bring silly builds and they never play really bad.

None of those are true for puggies

I was implying the actual work it takes to put into a party. For heroes, you need to understand other professions, possess gear and purchase upgrades. Then, there's flagging. You've surely experienced or seen a balled-up group of heroes go down instantly to AoE. With a PuG, everyone is managing themselves. Players are also more intelligent with skills, such as Protective Spirit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace Slughorn

I love how most people on here think they are way better than other players in this game (pugs)

hint: you aren't

There's more to being a good player than skill, such as versatility, understanding of all professions and enemies, personality, etc.

Mists

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2010

ATL

Vibration Science [TCKL]

A/

30 Mar 2011 at 02:24 - 189

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

With a PuG, everyone is managing themselves. Players are also more intelligent with skills, such as Protective Spirit.

Your statement is flawed. You assume all players are competent.

Kirzath

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2007

W/

30 Mar 2011 at 02:40 - 190

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

With a PuG, everyone is managing themselves. Players are also more intelligent with skills, such as Protective Spirit.

I'll also add that, because everyone's running their own builds, there is zero synergy, so PUGs will always be inferior to proper team builds, which is made easy with heroes.

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

30 Mar 2011 at 03:20 - 191

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirzath

I'll also add that, because everyone's running their own builds, there is zero synergy, so PUGs will always be inferior to proper team builds, which is made easy with heroes.

Synergy is one thing, management is another.

@Mists AI isn't, either. There are trade-offs.

As someone said earlier, if I wasn't already Legendary Guardian I'd be more interested in PuGs. I've pretty much accomplished what I set out to do and no longer need them. For those that do, there is a place. I wish it came earlier, but the same could be said of many an update.

Mireles

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2009

W/Me

30 Mar 2011 at 06:01 - 192

Where are people getting this insane idea that ALL people that PuG are totally clueless....people i have gone threw with so far on my first 10 titles to my 2nd gwaam have been fairly competent...

people need to get over themselves... there is more than one way to do things in this game...

Rites

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2010

Deep in the belly of Texas

R/

30 Mar 2011 at 06:25 - 193

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Where are people getting this insane idea that ALL people that PuG are totally clueless....people i have gone threw with so far on my first 10 titles to my 2nd gwaam have been fairly competent...

people need to get over themselves... there is more than one way to do things in this game...

not all PUGs are clueless, there have been a few (in my limited PUGging) that i would say were quite decent.

but learning and understanding hero/hench AI was much easier for the way i play than trying to understand why player 3 and player 4 are using certain skills on mob A but are completely ignoring the boss

besides, i dont like being in an outpost for longer than necessary to dump my drops and figure out where i wanna go next. with H/H they are ready when i wanna leave and i dont get messages saying AFK for potty break, or AFK going for a smoke

vader

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

P/W

30 Mar 2011 at 16:09 - 194

I think part of the problem with Embark Beach is that there are two places to pick up Z-Missions and Z-Bounties. Embark Beach and GTOB. Embark Beach doesn't have the PvP Z Quest (at least I don't think it does). Maybe the Z-Missions and Z-Bounties should be removed from GTOB and put exclusively in Embark Beach like the Z-Vanquish is. Its not a perfect solution but I think it would probably push a few more people there.

Avatar of Healing

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2008

Isle of Jade

Us Are Not [leet]

Mo/

30 Mar 2011 at 16:18 - 195

I agree w/ vader. I just go to GtoB to get the pve Zquests because thats where i've been going since Zquesting came out. When i go to embark to get the vanquish i always remember i could have just got the other pve Zquests there too and saved myself a zone. oh well.

Yawgmoth

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2005

31 Mar 2011 at 09:54 - 196

Practically EB was not needed at all as players could have just used GToB (for example international districts) for party forming if only they knew about it - information is vital - and if Anet cared to fix the travel issues (I expected something much better as a fix than those NPC's but if it's just that then they could just as well have been put in GToB).

If Embark Beach was about convenience then they failed miserably at it. It's sooo FAR from being convenient. A huge outpost with really awkward pathing/navigation and crucial NPC's spread all over it and the travel through NPCs is just as bothersome as splitting the party, maptravelling and rejoining at destination location. Very poor design overall.

Still it's nothing compared to the biggest problem - the imba solo power that came with 7 heroes, exactly as predicted. As much as I've enjoyed PuGging everything I could before, now I just want things done, and 7 heroes tear through all PvE faster than even forming a PuG takes...

jray14

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

NC, USA

Ohm Mahnee Pedmay [Hoom]

31 Mar 2011 at 14:06 - 197

Yeah, I agree that the pathing in EB is horrible. I can't go from NPC A to NPC B without getting body-blocked. Not quite as bad as Locked Chests when they body-block a quest NPC, but still frustrating. So my Assassin can shadow step 20 feet and fire off a chain of 3 attacks in less than 2 seconds but can't find his way around a signpost. *sigh*

Lasai

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2009

R/

31 Mar 2011 at 14:18 - 198

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

Practically EB was not needed at all as players could have just used GToB (

For a new player in Proph there are 7 very long, tedious and somewhat confusing missions, for a New Player, with no access to boat travel or GTOB as well as no access to heroes.

While Embark may be underutilized for this, it is a way for players to try and find groups that may not exist in the outposts they are running their missions from.

It is not just a place for jaded old endgame players and z-quests. Whether it works or not remains for the players. At least an attempt was made to give players doing the game for the first time an avenue to find more people than trying to form a group from someplace like Borliss Pass, for instance.

In all games that have been out for a while there is a problem with the bulk of the players being high level. New players dribbling in to the game do NOT find the group opportunities that veteran players found when a majority of players were doing the same content. The "good old days" of grouping were more a matter of a large population being at roughly the same place and level.

Games like EQ2 have chosen to revamp low level zones, introduce linear solo questlines, and bypass the need to do low level group instances to allow people to level up to where the bulk of the groups are available. As a result, some of the best dungeons and group instances in that game are abandoned now.

There is no magic bullet to fix the problem. Embark is at least a possible solution, if not perfect or utilized as such.

enter_the_zone

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2007

R/

31 Mar 2011 at 15:04 - 199

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace Slughorn

I love how most people on here think they are way better than other players in this game (pugs)

hint: you aren't

Oh, it's not that we're better than them, it's just that people are always more tolerant of their own flaws. Not that I have any flaws, of course

Yawgmoth

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2005

31 Mar 2011 at 16:02 - 200

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

For a new player in Proph there are 7 very long, tedious and somewhat confusing missions, for a New Player, with no access to boat travel or GTOB as well as no access to heroes.

While Embark may be underutilized for this, it is a way for players to try and find groups that may not exist in the outposts they are running their missions from.

Those players beed EB the least - the only logical place to meet players wanting to do just that particular early normal mode mission is that mission's outpost. When there's no branching but following a linear storyline EB can't help, except for the very rare occassion where a player who already did this mission can join and do it again.

The main usefullness of such a central meeting place would be for players who have many things to do and don't need to them in a particular order - this applies mainly to players working on maxing some titles or filling books. For example when a player needs like 10 Canthan HM missions for his title he shouldn't be jumping all the mission's outposts but go to the central meeting spot and look for others also interested in getting Canthan Guardian.

But the power of 7 heroes invalidates that, a character interested in working on HM titles should have them ready to pwn, and that's far far easier AND faster than taking time to form pugs.

So I got a thought, maybe it's our underdeveloped alts - I think most of us have some characters who don't yet have all the PvE skills and a setup of 7 lvl20 heroes ready to pwn - maybe it's them who could use some pugging.

But then I thought, why would I need to do any content that would make use of a pug on a yet underdeveloped character? That character should most likely be doing NM storylines to get to places, get heroes and get them to lv20, and get PvE skills/titles powering them up...
Oh, maybe the last part, working on EotN rep titles (by ZM/ZB and filling books) on alts is something worth pugging for.
Will try later and see.