Selling In-Game Advantages (The Great Debate Over Mercenary Heroes)

This is exactly what i have been saying, give everyone the chance to experiment with 8mes or 8 necs if they want. Mercs are there to look cool not give an advantage others don't have.

/report Arenanet
Reason: Real money trading for in Game Advantages.

And yes step by step this becomes a Free to Play game, only that you payed around 180 bucks for getting all 4 parts when they were released.

I will consider this, when it comes to buying GW 2 or not.

I wonder what future advantages available from the cash shop will be? When I combine those with eachother will the advatages remain minimal or will they compound into something more questionable?

Atm a friend and I are throughly enjoying using mespike [me on SF sin tank and him bringing all the heros(5mes,1rit,1 bonder)] Really makes some areas laughably easy with minimal microing. Although I am enjoying this almost too much, my main concern still applies.

I'm pretty sure if you read the EULA, it doenst say they cant sell any advantages for real money, only YOU cant. In fact it's thier property, they can do what they wish.

You will buy it. Everyone still here after all this time will.

Q: What kind of impact have you personally seen or felt stemming from the introduction of Mercenary Heroes?
A: Little to none, but maybe more fun.
Q: Do you consider the introduction of Mercenary Heroes to be an unfair game advantage for those with excess real-life money or an aesthetic fan-service that benefits many of the game's players (or both)? Explain.
A: Just aesthetics to spare, but not unfair.
Q: Are teams consisting of 7 heroes of the same profession consistent with the game's themes and/or felt values? Why or why not?
A: 7 or 8 of the same is nothing new in this game, now I just don't need pug's that are lame.
Q: Do you believe that this is a "trend" that the Live Team and Anet may continue to follow in the future? In your opinion, is that a good or bad thing?
A: They've already said they're going to micro-transaction, but I don't have to buy it unlike PvE faction.
Q: Profit is obviously always a concern for any for-profit business. However, over the years many game companies have added features to games specifically for the benefit of their fans, whether for monetary gain or not. What do you believe is the primary motivation for the addition of Mercenary Heroes - profit, fan service, or a mixture of both?
A: If it were only fan service then it would be free, so it's surely for profit for them and for me.
Q: Does the addition of Mercenary Heroes change your opinion on the direction of the future of the company; namely - Guild Wars 2? If so, in a positive or negative way?
A: The only certainty is change, and this is not out of my tolerance range.

This all seems much ado about nothing, now if I could buy divine aura or festival hats, that would be something.

Being able to do DoA without MH has nothing to do with this argument. I did DoA years ago when it took 8+ hours. I did DoA when it was a bunch of nubs turning into bears and spamming 1-3. I did DoA when it was monk spike, nec spike, mes spike, etc. Ive done it with friends, guildies, pugs, heroes, etc. I can still do DoA with or without MH. So what? That has nothing to do with anything.

A person shouldn't be given more capabilities in pve just because they payed money to greednet. Skins and eye candy are one thing. I dont care if they sell a fcking dinosaur costume. Whatever, could care less. But anything like this that impacts gameplay in anyway is unacceptable.

And by your logic: If they introduced a Jesus sword to NCstore that did 1337-1337 dmg, would you say thats ok? People could do DoA/Uw/FoW before the jesus sword even without cons, so why is the jesus sword needed? am i right?

What I meant was "most people that preferred to play the game solo with heroes/henchmen and never bothered with areas that couldn't be completed with henchmen and/or never participated in things like Speed Clears or Ursanway, are now worried that someone can finish an area in 2/3 of the time they will required because that someone has merc heroes as opposed to them that don't have".

For reference, I was able to complete every area since I play with a friend and secondary accounts but never participated in SC craze.

For me, it is a much bigger concern that Urgoz and the Deep are still restricted to solo players and even have mechanics that are annoying to execute by a single player. I understand that in PvP AI should be restricted (actually it shouldn't be allowed at all, but it is a concession to a diminishing player base) but I don't understand why certain areas of PvE are still restricted to PvE solo players.

Additionally, I do think that "invincible tanks that can hold tons of aggros" is a silly mechanic and that is what allows even solo players with 7 heroes to finish DoA so fast.

I would like at least other mechanics to be able to accomplish similar speeds.

If they give everyone that right, I want a refund on my Mercenaries. I don't give a damn about cosmetic anything.

So you are saying you bought them for the advantages they gave you not just for the looks. Well at least you're being more honest than most the naysayers.

@Lasai Why does buying a game to play constitute into people getting things for free. GW2 rewards are there to show the dedication people put into GW, thats what Anet said and thats what they're doing.

HoM items for GW2 are cosmetic only?

Yeah, but we have no idea of how it will be implemented. For all we know, armor and weapons will simply be cosmetic by the point in the game we can access HOM and if a unique pet skin doesn't spell the definition of purely cosmetic, then I don't know what does.

For instance, FoW armor and a BDS aren't an adavantage, they're cosmetic. Bluntly, it's frakking e-peen, just like most titles. What makes you think GW2 will be any different?

Not disagreeing with you here. I'm a total fan of cosmetic microtransactions - even if I think they're overpriced, costumes, makeover kits, and even WoW's Celestial Steed are great ways of satisfying customers while making the parent company some cash on the side. And, well, as more than one person has stated, if there were generic Zaishen heroes of variable profession available, which would make mercenary heroes have no differences in functionality, i'd be completely fine with that.


You see, that's not what I'm arguing.

I don't have a problem with the game being made easier. I don't think that mercenary heroes genuinely make a huge difference with regards to PvE. I'm sure that there are at least some more optimized builds for some areas that rely on some usage of mercenary heroes, but I don't think that's really relevant for most players. If a build that can afk clear DOA does come up that requires the exact party composition of four paragons and three mesmers, I sure hope that paragons and mesmers are getting nerfed.

What I'm afraid of are the long-term implications of the positive reception to this microtransaction. As minor as the actual advantage being provided is, which again, I'm not disagreeing with, there is definitely one in that people who've bought it have access to party compositions that are otherwise unavailable without resorting to other people. The problem is that the overall positive reception to this is so positive.

I'm reminded of the parable of the boiling frog here. It's a pretty credible theory that GW1 in its wanging years is just going to be used as a petri dish for GW2, and the developers are testing the limits of what they can get away with that is still popular. Mercenary heroes are pretty tame, but are people still going to recognize it when something more significant does pop up in the cash shop?

Also, for those of you comparing the $45 mercenary hero pack to an expansion, how much heat do you think Anet would have gotten if they tried to sell that in stores as a genuine expansion? Of course expansions are expected to provide additional functions - installing one functionally means that you're playing a different game. Comparing that to a microtransaction is a bit of a stretch.

I was under the impression that GW2 item rewards are going to be like heirlooms in WoW - they'll be similar in stats to items you can get from questing at any given time, but they'll scale as you level, so you can keep the appearance. It's convenient, but it won't be something that can elevate your power cap in the long run. If this is the case, I can't imagine them being any more problematic than preorder weapons.

I didn't buy them for the looks at all. I got them to be able to do experiment with idea's and playstyles since I no longer want to play PvE with people. Where do looks come in anyways, I only give prestige armor to my Assassin, and 1 set to my Dervish, and I only bought the damn things for HoM otherwise they were a big waste of platinum.

I also at the time EoTN came out the only reason I bought it was for the skills to use in pvp. Campaign was a bonus.

The difference is that the mercenary heroes make additional heroes of a class available. How you think a team of 8 mesmers is the same as 1 unique pet skin (the exact effect of which can be replicated by other in-game pets) when you can only have 1 pet at a time, I truly struggle to see.

And to clarify, everyone complaining about the "advantage" mercenary heroes give need to just f**k off. I mean, really. Having only prophecies means you have no heroes, which is a distinct disadvantage, so why aren't they QQing about that? That, right there, is a definite example of RMT providing an actual in-game advantage.

For emphasis:Not really, I wouldn't mind if every GW2 player was given the same stuff with other skins at the same point as the HoM items are available.

I don't even want an advantage from HoM items, I would think it unfair. Cosmetic only please.

FoW mez-spike, DoA Trenchway, Kath mez-spike, basically it has been done anywhere tank and spank tactics work.

Saying that using heros has no advantage over full human teams is completely false. The abitily to use heros and go w/o spending the time and effort involved with forming a full human team is an enormous advantage. The abitily for my friend and I to join up and run mespikes throughout gw in 2mins, I can see as an advantage. The difference that merch heros allow now is the ability for me (the tank) not to having to worry about microing my heros, so I can focus on balling aggro. Then my friend simply attacks once I'm set and the spike is complete. Ofc we could stand around in an area waiting to form full human groups, but that would take lots of time and effort, which we can completely avoid since he bought his merchs.

@Lasai, It's the principle of the thing more than anything. Heros come free with the game, why should people who don't own the Mercs have to pay to have the same number of professions that others do? Yes we can team up with someone else but what happens if we don't want to or theres no-one else on to team up with.
I don't want free heros just because everyone who wants spend money on a cosmetic item gets them. Tbh i'm actually still happy enough running with h/h. But i think it's unfair to loyal GW players who have paid for the games to not be able to do something that others who pay for it can.
BMP has been mentioned as an example before so i'll use it, from a lore perspective i think it should be part of the game not as a buy it from store to play. Theres no advantage to owning it, but it does include some important history of the GW world.
Mercs are not only cosmetic but they allow people to do and experiment in ways that most people without them cannot. The price of them is far too steep for alot of players to afford, so why shouldn't they be allowed to experiment and play the same way as people who can afford it.

It's a slippery slope Anet is on here, i'm not sure whether they thought this through entirely before releasing them. If they have then why now are they allowing people to pay for something that helps in-game that non payers will not be able to do. To me it seems they're testing the waters to see how many people will pay(and how much) to have an advantage when playing the game.

Yes so far nobody has been given more capabilities in pve from MH.

It would be an unfair transaction to sell an overpowered sword, which MH are not.

Any PvE achievements that you can get with MH, you can achieve with just standard heroes as well.

How are you not understanding the failure of this kind of logic??

"Any PvE achievements that you can get with MH, you can achieve with just standard heroes as well."

-Any PvE achievements that you can get with jesus sword, you can achieve with just standard weapons as well.
-Any PvE achievements that you can get with heroes, you can achieve with just standard henchman as well.
-Any PvE achievements that you can get with henchman, you can achieve with just standard players as well.
-Any PvE achievements that you can get with all the skills in the game, you can achieve with just the core skills as well.

So basically, by your logic, they may as well have released GW in 05 and then charged people for henchman, heroes, certain skills, weapons, proffessions,etc,etc. And that would have been ok, because any PvE achievement that you could get with those bonuses, you could achieve without those bonuses as well.

Why can't you understand that I have already called for screenshots and timing if you can prove, once and for all, a pve achievement that cannot be beaten using just standard heroes?

Having such an OP sword would allow you to clear DoA HM much faster than otherwise possible, wouldn't it? But for MH, nobody has shown that it has such an advantage over using just standard heroes. If you say they are the same thing, then prove it.

For example, if you can prove:

a) Best timing from the community for clearing DoA HM with just standard heroes, without cons, using a warrior, is 2 hours.

b) Best timing from the community for clearing DoA HM with merc heroes, without cons, using a warrior, is 1 hour.

If you can show that vast disparity, then you have proven that MH does give an unfair advantage. If you can't, then you can't say that they do.

The time it takes 2 random people on this forum to do DoA with/without MH has nothing to do with the unfairness of MH without a free 'zaishen-hero' type alternative.

But, if for some reason you think a DoA clearing contest with heroes/MH is the ultimate judge of its fairness then... Right now, there is a DoA w/heroes thread in Hero section of forum. Lots of people have been trying to do with all sorts of team setups, using heroes and MH. Right now, the fastest/easiest times are done by a sin primary who runs 4 mesmer spike. Which is basically the SC team build transferred to heroes. But of course, this requires MH.

But none of this has anything to do with the argument. The point is that MH go beyond skins and eye candy and are something that directly impact Pve gameplay. Whether or not the 7 nec team build is better than the 3/2/2 hero build is irrelevant. The point is that now there are some players who have access to an infinite number of solo team builds, while others are restricted by what professions the current heroes have. And the only difference between these two sets of people, are that some have payed GreedNet while other haven't.

Please stop reposting your "provez it!" garbage over and over. This argument isn't about whether someone with MH can clear some random area faster than someone else can with just heroes. The 'advantage' (if we must use this word) isn't a difference in speed doing something. The 'advantage' is simply having access to any hero team build setup you want just cause you payed $45.

And I disagree. Just because you keep repeating that MH gives an unfair advantage without proof and with mere speculations, doesn't mean it automatically becomes the truth.

If I remember right, the guy who used MH also used cons so of course the timing would be better those who don't use cons.

And you don't need those other builds which are inferior to builds that can be done with just standard heroes.

And please stop spouting your "just because I repeated myself 100 times" it means all you have to believe me garbage argument.

If merely having "access" to something is proof of an unfair game advantage then having access to more Xunlai storage panes or specific costumes would fall into the same category but yet people accepted them. Access to more heroes doesn't automatically translate to an in-game advantage. It only translates to more "fun" for people who like to play with hero builds, not necessarily an advantage. I don't know why you still don't get it.

So far all the experiments done in the heroes forum are indicating that you don't need MH to have the best builds and this runs contrary what you have been claiming. Repeating yourself another 100 times is not going to make any difference to the truth. You need supporting proof.

I was with you up to this point, but it's these feelings that unsettle me. There has been nothing but language from the team indicating they take a careful approach so as to not cross the invisible line toward cash shop power drinks and what-not. Could it be the above? They'd be silly to not take notes, but I doubt the basis for continued updates for GW is all about market research for GW2. That's entirely pessimistic and kind of insults this game's continued life. I should hope you don't believe this is what GW is reduced to.

How many people buy GWEN just for the advantages and not the story or cosmetic rewards?

Yes, it started a long time ago when I complained that the Kuunavang mini pet allowed players to translate real life money into in-game gold. But most people argued back that it is fine, the scope of the word advantage has been limited.

The rest is history, then skill unlock packs, pet unlock packs, xunlai storage panes, fire imp, GOTY, makeovers, and now merc packs. People just dont bother unless something that they REALLY WANT ends up in the store.

How can people even believe that Mercs don't give an in game advantage?

• Extra Xunlai storage panes give an advantage
• /bonus weapons give an advantage
• BMP gives an advantage
• Fire Imp in Presearing gives an in game advantage

There is no question that Merc heroes give an advantage to those who pay for them.

A player who pays for this type of content has access to things a player who does not pay for the content has a lack thereof.

Whether or not the advantage given is excessive is the question.

I do not believe any of the content listed above is excessive except the Merc heroes.

I think the Fire Imp in pre-searing is many times more excessive than any merc hero.

I'm curious, how is an imp that allows a person to get only a harmless title faster than others or farm presearing faster more excessive than Merc heroes?

Merc heroes allow you to do over 99% of the game's worth of content more efficiently than any other player who lacks Mercs.

They're both similar in the sense that they give advantages in speed, but Merc heroes affect a much, much large palette of Guild Wars.

Presearing is one of the smallest niches of Guild Wars with such a minimal impact upon postsearing that both their respective in game economies are almost completely isolated.

How does the imp even begin to compare its less than 1% of content affected to over 99% from the Merc heroes?

Because it can be easily proven that the Fire Imp grants alot more power in pre-searing than without one.

While I don't need Merc heroes to get into 99% of the game's worth of content more efficiently. The heroes forum showed that the best build combinations can be done through standard heroes. Getting MH gives you access to some unique hero combinations, but those combinations tend to be inferior to those that can be filled by just standard heroes.

Show me a pve achievement that can only be done by exploiting merc heroes, and can't be done through using only standard heroes.

I paid for a few Mercs. Price was a bit steep, but I like to think of it as supporting Anet. I like Guild Wars. I like the work and effort that was put into it. I like the way Anet has treated it's community. I like to go with a 1 Dollar = 1 Hour gameplay rule, and currently, I have payed 5 cents for every hour that I've played Guild Wars.

I'd say I've gotten my money's worth. I'll chip in a little, be supportive, and have fun until GW2 comes out. Until it can be proven that Mercs are better, this thread shouldn't really exist.

The difference between your Jesus Sword and a merc hero is that the jesus sword is stronger than any other max sword while the merc hero is as strong as any other hero.

Can you tell the difference?

I can.

There are currently 27 heroes in game: 19 require nightfall, 10 require eye of the north, 1 requires prophecies and nightfall, 1 requires factions and nightfall, 1 requires prophecies and eye of the north and 1 requires prophecies+nightfall+factions.

Players also have the ability to have up to 8 extra heroes partially customizable that requires buying an upgrade called "mercenary slots".

Until a certain point in the life of guild wars the model was 1 standalone campaign every 6 months.

That model lasted exactly 2 campaigns after the original game.

I'm not exactly sure what people would be doing with 11 campaigns by now, all with their missions just to fill time, powerful enemy threatening to conquer/destroy the world storyline, 11 tutorial areas, an extra 5000 skills and some 18 new professions (that probably would be indistinguishable from others), etc.

That model has obvious limits and so the game was pretty much killed after GWEN and Guild Wars 2 was announced so Anet would be unburdened of the campaign model.

What we have now is an upgrade system - instead of people buying a complete package of content in one go, they buy bits and pieces.

I won't be surprised if in Guild Wars 2 you get upgrades to unlock new areas instead of expansion packs.

I understand that some people don't like this model and this model wasn't the one that was in place when they bought the game years ago.

It is obvious that more content will always give an advantage to a player, even if it is only a cosmetic advantage in some cases. As long as that content falls in the category of expanding the game instead of this jesus sword is so much better than every other sword, it is fine.

In the end this isn't a discussion about merc heroes or storage panes - it is a discussion about business model.

If the merc heroes came with an expansion that added war in kryta and some new outposts in the unused mountains of factions for winds of change and anet boxed it, everyone would be happy, even though, this way people that don't want merc heroes can enjoy wik and woc for free.

Everybody is whining here about the game "being fair". It's a game, hay, and it's PvE, why exactly does it have to be fair? Servers don't run without income and MH:s make definitely better income than costumes. I don't care if they give advantage to some, I keep playing like I did before. People claim they "can't play the game the way THEY wanted", oh hay, if mercenary heroes are the thing you've always wanted to play with, you have been playing wrong game for five years.

The difference is that it would have been new playable content. Mercenary heroes (theoretically) just make it possible to do things faster, so it kind of feels like we've been given the chance to buy a sword that does 30-50dmg.
The thing is that it was Anet that said they wanted to make a game where everyone started on an even playing field and differences would come from skill not from who had the bigger check book or more time to grind.

I don't know that mercenary heroes really give all that much of an advantage (my apologies if it's been proven in this thread, I haven't read it all) as it seems like most are going with 3 necro, 2 mes 2 rit teams or some other variation that doesn't require more than 3 of the same hero. If there isn't any benefit, then MHs are really just a cosmetic addition.

And really, if they do create a nearly game breaking in game benefit, Anet will probably nerf it somehow. ^^

I do plan to get these on my two accounts some day. It'd be neat to play with my other characters while coloring red dots black. I don't feel at a disadvantage now not having them yet either.

Are they better than regular heroes somehow?

The merc slot is, but the hero created by that slot is in no way different.

That is why people aren't saying "but I can't make 3 assassin heroes!".

It is just circumstantial that at moment certain professions are better heroes than others and might be more useful in bigger numbers.

To be exact, 3 ritualists have some uses and so does something like 4-5 mesmers (which allow to replicate mesmer spikes of SC teams).

If you buy the unlock skill packs and the unlock item packs, you have a head start over someone that is starting to play PvP at the same moment you are, for example. Actually the weapons will be stronger.

orly

Good enough, yes. But "best?" Empirically? Really?

Again, I'm not claiming that the differences are huge - refer to my previous post if you need. I'm in full accordance with you that in all possible hypothetical situations, However, the difference between having no mercenary heroes and having five of them is from less than 888,030 to 10,000,000 potential teams. To claim that in no situations will that elevenfold difference in variety be relevant is incredibly bold. (Also, since someone else brought it up, even if in the current state of balance, you'll never need more than three of any class, that doesn't necessarily hold for the future.)

It'd be a lot easier to show you more evidence of mercenary heroes making a difference if, you know, everyone had them.

Perhaps my pessimism is excessive, but even ignoring that, the potential slippery slope implications for the remainder of GW's lifespan are relevant.

I did, three times. You can't exactly PvP without having access to all the skills.

The difference is that the Fire Imp (or preorder weapons, or skill unlocks) don't increase the power cap except at levels below 20, which I believe we can agree as being, in the long run, trivial.

The game was designed and marketed around the principle of being "fair." Luckily enough, most people actually would care if that were to change more significantly.

How does a statistic just fly out of ones ass like that?

@ this person
lets not use Just here, $45 is money.
If you guys are going to go and try to convince Anet otherwise, make sure you argue for my refund then.

Presumably, 99% of the game supports the usage of heroes.

I agree with you that most of those areas probably don't actually require mercenary heroes for optimality, though.

Is there some kind of growing movement to make me waste my time/money?
I'm doing HoM solely for the items, and payed for mercs solely for the combination. Turn everything into Cosmetic A.K.A a waste of time.

Single profession groups have been around for ages, they've just required other people to do it. The tiny advantage of the Merc Heroes is that now it doesn't. Whether the advantage of Merc Heroes is tiny or not, it is an advantage. But, more importantly, we've all payed for "advantage" already many, many times in GW, so this is nothing new.

They are better because they allow you to create team setups that you can't do with heroes because you are limited to the hero professions they have made.

Its as simple as that. That is the advantage/unfairness/whatever you wanna call it. It doesn't matter how MH-only team builds compare with hero team builds. It doesn't matter which builds become the new meta. It doesn't matter how some random ppl in the Hero Subforum are fairing with/without MH.

All that matters, is that if i want to create some hero team setup (like 7 monks, or 4 paragons, or 3 mesmers, or 1000 necros, or 4 dervishes), then i can't without paying money. It doesn't matter if those team builds i create are better than the next guy's hero-only setup.

Daesu and others keep asking for 'proof' of how MH are better than heroes. Thats the proof right there. People who payed for MH can now make whatever hero team builds they want, while those who didnt pay are still restricted. It doesn't matter if someone's done DoA with MH faster than someone else with only heroes. It doesn't matter if you or others think that some certain hero setup is still better than any MH setup. It doesn't matter if 7 necroes are completely useless. I don't know how i can make myself more clear. The 'advantage' is being able to run anything hero setup you want because you payed. It has nothing to do with how MH are faster or better or stronger or safer or anything. I don't care if running 7 monks is 100000 times slower than running 2rit/3nec/2monks. Why can the next guy who payed $45 get to run 7 monks, while i can't?