Selling In-Game Advantages (The Great Debate Over Mercenary Heroes)

Mm, but for the right amount of ectos, the mini can be traded. Mercenary heroes cannot (and should not). But for those who don't want to pay the cash for the magazine or the collector's edition for the minipet, there are ways to obtain the item in game for in game effort/currency.

I do think it was rather mean of them to have 10 professions, but only 8 gratis slots after buying the full set. I have wondered why EoTN didn't offer the last 2 slots. But I'm guessing paid slots were already available by then.

True

Once they made the decision to sell heroes giving away more than one maybe two more ceased to be an option or at least a fair one.

BTW I didn't buy merc and have no intention of doing so.

hum....... isn't that like saying "why does the next guy have more storage then me? i paid for all the same content but have 12( is that right?) where the other guy paid $20 for 4 slot get 12 + 4 toons to use as storage?

If i want more storage i have to ->pay<- for it. If you( or anyone) wants 7 monk you have to ->pay<- for it.

ahhhh ok ok i get it. But can't you just use the 7 heroes and NO Merch Heroes for DOA?

that my thing. what is the differences if your finish it 30 mins faster then me? I take 3 hours, you take 1.5 hours? At the end it gets done. why does speed have to matter if your soloing it?That's the thing John was looking for under his Random Thoughs.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedback:John_StummeDitto!


Also "Jesus sword." Never seen one ingame yet. Yeah lots of SS here on guru but never in game. I feel bad for all those foes who come to it's blade and die 5 seconds faster. You guys are funny.

I believe that everyone who went to PAX and played the gw2 demo has an unfair advantage over me when it comes to competing in the game.

This was a microtransaction that was not cosmetic it will give them an advantage over me which I consider unfair.
Please give me plane tickets for all future events to ensure a fair playing field.

Why can I have this hamburger and you can't?

Because I paid for it. You want one, you will have to pay for it.

Actually this is quite like "Why is that guy fries and coke bigger than mine? I bought the same menu!" "He payed to have extra fries and more coke.".

You bought Guild Wars but you certainly didn't buy mercenary hero slots - they didn't even existed.

The fact is you look at the merc heroes and you like the advantages of it but you don't think it is worth the money asked.

I know, micro transactions and DLCs in games are annoying in psychological terms. We are like "what the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO - I paid for the game and now there is a new thing in it that I have to pay for?!?!". And companies know about that - costumes are useless in terms of game play mechanics but it is so "I want that flaming pumpkin head!".

But the reality is other people having mercenary heroes doesn't change your game in any way. It is still the same game and even got better with 7 heroes update.

The argument you are presenting could be someone saying "Another frigging Guild Wars campaign?!?!? Frigging people bringing heroes and their damn pve-only skills and paragons and rits to my prophecies! It is unfair. They have an advantage! Just because they paid forit!".

Improvavel - I want to say off the bat that I appreciate what you're bringing to this thread. I may not agree with all you have to say, but you do give me things to think about.

This is an interesting analogy. But I think for those who think the mercenary heroes are unfair, it's like if the restaurant charged a flat fee for the burger itself, but the bun -- that's extra. "How come yours comes with a bun?" "I paid extra for it." I think what this mainly comes down to is what should be included as a part of the game, which is a free to play model, and what should be considered an "extra goody" that is fair to charge for.

We also have the very dynamic issue of personal thresholds of "reasonable pricing."

The "campaign as advantage" comparison is the one I do agree with. The difference, however, in my opinion is this: Competitive pricing. One doesn't have to pay MSRP for e.g. Nightfall, if they want the benefits. Wait long enough and various retailers eventually drop their prices. The biggest problem I have with advantages (however significant they may be) being sold in the cash shop is that NC controls the product and the price exclusively. There is no competitive pricing. Except for the rare 1/2 off sale (which, at their discretion, could exclude Mercenary Packs if they so desired -- and if they're selling well to people who eagerly gobble them up, they could make that decision), one has no choice but to pay the MSRP for the benefit.

Which was why I said there is no obvious advantage for having merc heroes.

We can speculate on what the future holds, but mere speculation holds no weight in an argument.

They are probably not going to give everyone 8 free merc heroes. So even if they give everyone ONE free merc hero, then people would complain about others who can afford 3 or 8 having an unfair advantage over them.

The time it takes for a pre-searing character to level up to 20 is probably much longer than it takes for them to finish a campaign in post searing.

When we bought this game, we knew that merc heroes were not supported and we knew what we would get.

Now that ANet has included merc heroes as an optional purchasable feature, people seems to demand that they should get them for free also.

Taking that burger analogy further, you paid $5 for just a burger and a coke, then after they have added donuts to the menu as an optional purchasable item, some you are saying hey I paid you $5 before, you should include the donuts too. And if they added pancakes to the menu as another optional purchasable item, they would keep pointing to the old $5 that they spent on that burger and coke and claim to be entitled to the pancakes and donuts also, without paying any extra.

First I agree that the price of some store items are quite high. There is still a factor on competitive pricing though - investment on the product development. It isn't the same as having a ton of boxes with dvd stored somewhere, but it still is a factor.

If a game can still generate revenues, the company that produces it will be much more interested in support it/improve it. And we have seen and keep seeing results of it.

It is in their best interest and it is also on our interest since we can have a better experience/fun.

Second, I don't like the way Anet bunched the merc packs. 1 merc is too expensive, the 3 mercs has reasonable initial price but it still is expensive and the 8 merc pack, while has the best cost/slot has a initial price that is too steep. Then if you want to go from 3 mercs to 8 you need to buy another 3 mercs and 2 1 mercs.

I think that was poor thinking on Anet part. Lets be frank, $5.625 for a merc slot (the price you get with the 8 merc pack) isn't that much. But $10 for a slot is. And $45 in a single transaction is huge.

That does happen a lot in software/games. Part of it is I believe because gaming is still seen as something for kids and gamers don't have a strong vocal voice.

And really, when you see some crappy games sell millions (mostly in consoles) you really have to wonder if gaming isn't something for kids since no adult would buy some of that garbage.

But I digress.

Some companies do indeed seem happy to make a game, sell half of it for the price of a full game and then make you buy the other half with DLCs.

This doesn't seem to be the case.

We talked a lot about fairness and advantages on this thread. But lets face it PvE isn't a competitive game. There is no reward to finish first or do it faster.

In PvP the objective is to win the match, defeat the other team. A jesus sword would definitely increase my chances of defeating the other team.

In the end even the money (the more you play and the faster you generate it) you get in PvE is only used for aesthetically looks - a shinny weapon skin, a shinny armor, a title, an exclusive mini pet.

If is all about the aesthetically appearance, how aren't costumes or the BMP weapon skins seen as an advantage?

I can agree mercs are expensive. I can't agree mercs break PvE or are in the same level as jesus sword of pwn and that Anet is selling a competitive advantage. Especially because PvE isn't competitive. They are selling comfort, flexibility, better game play - and that is an advantageous thing for a player/costumer to get.

There are several instances where PvE is very competitive. Just because it isn't as obvious, doesn't mean that it is not.

Can you quote some ?

As long as it's not Player versus Player it's already not the same definition of word competitive... They added tournaments in GvG and HB , guess why...
It's definitely not at all the same winning a mat and doing 27mn instead of 40mn in x area....

Strictly speaking, the Competitive Missions.

I rest my case.

Anet went down the pay2win road six years ago when they released Factions and introduced hundreds of new skills and 2 professions that were exclusive to those who paid for the new campaign. This trend has continued ever since. MH ARE NOTHING NEW.

PvE is obviously competitive.

It may not be so obvious for newer players, but as a player for over 5 years, it's amazingly apparent.

People are competing on the same team for the same objectives with the resources available to them.

Just like working a job is competitive because you're competing against your own team for promotions or work bonuses.

PvE being competitive was one of the reasons Dervishes were buffed with Sand Shards and VoS. They were excluded from the metagame because of their inability to play as well as a 100B Sin or Warrior.

If you don't believe people on the same faction or side can compete for the same objective, then you must be living under a rock rejecting reality.

My drops don't affect your drops - there is no finite amount of drops.

1 party of 8 players or 8 parties of 1 player + 7 heroes each is equal, although the party of 8 players has more resources (pve-only skills).

Those are professions not players. All players have access to all professions.

Generally teams work together for the same objective.

If someone is in the same faction/side but are competing for the same resources, then the individual is superseding the team/faction.

Your logic is awful.

Your drops definitely do affect other player's drops. If people have an easier access to Armbraces or Ectos, then the value of stored material wealth in Ecto and Braces will depreciate.

Secondly, I have no idea why you would nitpick at player vs profession viability. To be viable or nonviable assumes there is value in the strength of the profession compared to how efficient other professions are and thus, comparing and contrasting 2 different professions' efficiencies to accept or deny their participation. It only supports the fact of my argument that PvE has competition.

Lastly, competition within teams is not detrimental to the performance or efficiency as a whole. It is how many fundamental things work worldwide like oh say capitalism, job credentials, team based competition, sporting events, education, and more. Abuse of competition is bad. Competition itself is as inherently rooted to the world as nature itself.

I should be reluctant to argue such points with you, but you only strengthen the crux of my argument that which PvE does indeed have competition. I guess I should thank you for your ham fisted dickery in trying to pick apart subarguments.

And your point is?

The stored wealth isn't a competitive goal.


Because professions don't compete vs each other, since they are non-entities.

Competition within team may or may not be detrimental.

I never said it was bad, I only said PvE isnt competitive

If you say so.

I see it differently.

^For real.

Pre-searing is NOT prepared for Fire Imp. Fire Imp is the best dollars-to-ingamebenefit you can currently buy, in my opinion.

Nobody complains about Fire Imp as hard as they complain about Merc Heroes though. Which is weird. Because Fire Imp is imba as RED ENGINE GO, in almost every scenario.

Because people don't want Fire Imp and they are just using RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing advantage argument as an excuse for their greed. They want MH:s because they are cool, but for them, everything in this world should be free.

Wow.....just.....wow. Well, I won't be reading anything you type anymore.

Honestly, a lot of people just got the Igneous Summoning Stone without even realizing it. It was so easy to get. All you had to do was buy something from the in-game store, and if I'm remembering correctly, it was free for those who had all of the campaigns when it came out.

Hence, it was infinitely cheaper than Mercenary Heroes (or free), even if you bought a full game for it, which were less than $45 at that point. And, I would argue that having a Fire Imp in Pre-searing isn't nearly as badass as clearing elite areas in 2 hours by yourself.

But, I couldn't care less about titles, so that's probably just my opinion.

"Level playing field" shouldn't require that much personal interpretation, should it? Some people have less options than others.

Mesmers were complete garbage in PvE until last year's update; hypothetically, would people not have complained if their accounts were randomly selected to be prohibited from playing mesmers in PvE? It wouldn't matter, right?

Also, I thought you were "done with this topic."

Somehow, I feel like I'm not going to be able to convince you that the availability of any team composition you desire is the advantage, not necessarily the increased efficiency brought by a hypothetically optimal composition.

But far less people play or care about presearing than, you know, the rest of the game.

Sure it is. If one player can earn an armbrace in 2 hours and another can earn it in 1 hour, they both earned an armbrace. That is what you are saying (the argument before was that a vanquish in 30 minutes or a vanquish in 60 minutes does not matter since you both complete the vanquish and monsters don't get any deader than dead). However, in 2 hours player 1 can earn 1 armbrace and player 2 can earn 2 armbraces. With 2 armbraces you can buy more than with 1 armbrace. Seems competitive to me to be honest.
The 'coolness' of Mercs lies in the fact that you can use chars with any armor set you like as a hero on another char, yes? That's not what we want.

Anet is just hurting for cash is what it comes down to. They have tried the free to play route and can't compete with the likes of Blizzard. I do feel you get an advantage with the mercenary slots but at the same time an experienced player will not be hurt by not purchasing them. I think Anet should just start selling in game gold for cash. That way they take care of the scamming gold buyer/sellers and also get some needed cash for guild wars 2.

Sorry, but that's flat out wrong. Communication is not done by one person alone. Plenty of people (yourself included) are perfectly clear in their comments to any who take the time and trouble to read carefully (and have the facilities to understand what is being communicated). However, not every has the ability to read precisely worded language (and many simply don't bother to even try). Sometimes punctuation is to blame sometimes a statement generally can have more than one correct interpretation, like in a newspaper headline "British left waffles on Falkland Islands." and sometimes people just plain get in wrong.

Back on topic: There are 3 principal arguments against merc heroes.

1) They're too expensive.

-- The don't buy them. They're far from necessary. Also, Anet doesn't set the price, so if you feel they're too expensive show the publisher you feel this way buy exercising your right to not buy them.

2) To be competitive in the game I must buy these hereos.

-- Merc heroes aren't allowed in direct competition between players, so this can only be applied to competition with respect to getting better drops/more gold/etc. Guild wars is by no means a game where you can become a better player by having more in game money, and special drops are largely to feed e-peen. While it might be true that merc heroes make the game easier there's as yet no strong evidence which supports the claim that merc heroes can do something much faster than it could already be done. We do have the example of a so-called "speed clear" of DoA (which took 2hr 15 minutes), but the time is still quite a bit longer than other in game means of completing DoA (8 humans can do it in an hour or less in some cases). The advantage here for the heroes is that a single player can potentially get a party together quickly and at any time of the day (assuming the have the time to devote to the game that is). However, there are plenty of guilds that have scheduled DoA runs (sometimes even several times a day) which would still allow those players to do more DoA than a person with heroes. Also, there have been other claims of players completing DoA in reasonable times using no merc heroes. In short, there is not enough evidence to support the claim that merc heroes are somehow superior... and if such evidence was out there I expect we would have seen a lot more of it by this point.

3) The sale of these heroes blurs the lines between cosmetic purchases and in game advantages, which is unprecedented, and questionable.

-- It's true that many would have a hard time justifying the merc heroes as "content" in the conventional sense, yet its clear they offer some form of advantage. Still, such advantages are hardly new. There is the fire-imp upgrade, the skill unlock packs, the sale of additional character and storage slots, even the introduction of /bonus weapons. So the "unprecedented" part of the above argument in clearly incorrect. As for these introduction to the online store being questionable, I don't think anyone is wrong to question them. If, as Lemming suggested, the store started selling items which gave a very distinct advantage (such as a weapon with higher than normal stats) then we'd want to be concerned, especially as to how such things affect the nature of grouping (though 7 heroes makes the NEED to group a thinkg of the past generally) and also PvP. But I don't believe we're at a point where the advantages being offered are that big. I still think that the fire imp is a bigger advantage in pre-searing than the merc heroes are in post-searing and I'm not seeing a big uproar about its existence. Perhaps then, the suggestion that purchases from the in game store always fall into either a "cosmetic" or an "advantage" category is the flawed reasoning here.

Meh. You have to write to your audience. If your audience is a bunch of quasi-illiterate 12-year-olds who play Guild Wars, then you have to base your writing style on that.

My hope is always that GW has a more mature audience than that, but lately I've been proven wrong.

True, but we are comparing Mercs to no-Mercs, not Mercs to no-Mercs to powertraders. You might as well compare Mercs to full-human teams (which some are trying somehow...)

How about this to a solution to part of the problem.

The store sells a pack of 5 Zaishen heros(which are non profession sepcific) for $5, that way everyone would have more of a chance to benefit apart from just those who bought Mercs.

I still think this is wrong personally as it is selling in-game advantages but at least it would go some way to lessening the gap there currently is.

Those people that wish for cool looking heros can pay the extra $40 for the Mercs, those that wish just to be in the same boat as everyone else can pay $5.

No problem. I just needed to know. please add me to your block list under the UserCP. I'm still on the wiki =]

anywho.... i hope Anet and the crew are reading this thread. people are paying with "Real money." How Anet goes further they need to know what there fans are feeling. good or bad. free or paid. red engine etc.... they need to hear our voices.

Money talks! All the love in the world from us fans can't pay the lunch for the Live Team day to day to push out more content. Maybe a breakfast? But they need to do stuff like this. The business model has/is change(ing).

Plus what lures us in as a "Free online game" was always to good to be true. (Call me old but life shows)Nothing is free in real life (or in game.)


Ditto! Thank you. WAIT i mean buy them! support them!

The cool thing about guild wars is that it doesn't matter - aside some limited mini pets and some other limited items you will get your title or you will get whatever "for the looks" gold sink.

And those things say nothing about your skill or you ability in the game nor will impact on your ability of completing content compared with other people (some might say the reputation titles will, but they are fools).

It is just a question of time but since we are playing for fun what matters is if the game is fun.

While there's some truth in that, there are plenty of times that the point one is trying to make is simply above the designated audience. (For examples, see just about any major political dispute and how it's presented to the American public) Also, with a forum, the audience is hardly consistent. To bring the conversation down to the lowest common denominator would be a mistake in general. Yes, there are quasi-literate 12 year olds... there are also quasi-literate 30+ people on these forums, but there are also those with Master's degrees (like you) or even higher (like me ). I say write in your own style and let the readers decide if what you're writing makes sense or not. Anyway, I still vastly prefer the GW community to most other online games' communities (such as WoW).

Back on track: Guild wars has NEVER been a free to play game. If nothing else, you must buy the game itself to be able to play more than 10 hours. In addition, players must choose to pay to use the content/upgrades they wish to play. Anet, in my opinion, has gone to great lengths to insure that these upgrades do not significantly affect your ability to play the content you already own. Make no mistake, they introduce new upgrades/content in such a way as to make your existing ownership function better and to give you more options IF you buy them. They have never introduced something that made it impossible to continue to enjoy your existing investment and merc heroes do not change that. Anet has toed a fine line in this regard and I feel they have almost completely succeeded. NCSOFT's prices... well those leave a bit to be desired, but that doesn't stop people from buying the upgrades, so I guess they know what they're doing too.

All I ever here from people is it's not a big deal, and yet year after year the DLC packs become more of an impact and more bold.

We'll see about that, give them an inch I dare you.

Mercenary heroes are hardly making more of a tangible impact than, say, costumes.

They only open up more options, and they are not a straight up advantage. The only 'impact' you're referring to is just the uproar from the community because they have to pay for content. Heavens forbid they throw money towards a fun pastime they have already invested many hours in.

Come on, people. Mercenary Heroes were introduced to be a cosmetic thing, and that is how I use mine. I do have the option to run with 6 mesmers, but it is not better than the vanilla hero setups that are currently available. You're paying for a broader possibility of hero team setups, not for an advantage.

One way for ANet to fix the problem on both sides is actually quite simple.

Assuming that Mercenary Heroes are SUPPOSED to be cosmetic and not grant in-game advantage, why not simply make all Heroes' primary professions switchable?

And if they have a problem with full switching, then ANet could restrict it to caster/physical differences.

For example, Koss, being a physical, could have a primary of Warrior, Ranger, Dervish, Assassin or Paragon. Tahlkora on the other hand could have a primary of Monk, Elementalist, Necromancer, Mesmer or Ritualist.

And of course, Heroes could still have Secondary professions as well.

This would also allow people more freedom in choosing which Heroes to bring based on things like quotes, looks, etc. Heroes like Anton would FINALLY see some playtime lol.

Not just in this game friend, I have been gaming for two decades now, the state of gaming these days is disgusting to me.

DLC was introduced and I said it from the start this is a bad idea, everyone said don't worry it's just this one little item. Now look at it, developers are selling features that were supposed to be in the original game for $15.

Then most people said "well I don't like it but it's mainly consoles so whatever" or "it's just such and such company they will make anything DLC big surprise". Now look at it, even Valve has become obsessed with it, seemingly the last studio left without it.

Today I see the same arguments here "it's not a big deal" or "it's not effecting you right now why complain?"

Just you wait and see, I gave up on the DLC argument ages ago because people hastily embraced it for whatever reason they used to convince themselves they weren't paying for features that should be included, and it snowballed, look at the progression of DLC in the past three years, slippery slope is an understatement, we're now being denied SDK's and charged for content that modders would have given for free, faster and with better quality.

This is not something you want to embrace it will turn on you, unless you just want to buy your way through an entire game and in that case you are part of the problem and will refuse my text.

To approach an MMO wanting to advance with nothing more than a transaction, it's absurd.

EDIT: For God's sake most publishers even have a regulation now that they can only give away a certain amount of free DLC per title. Look at what you're starting.

Before kids and lazy gamers decided to embrace DLC, this was done for free. It was called a content update or an expansion.

Crazy stuff I know, you think they really NEED DLC money?

That's a lie, and you also have no idea they were implemented for cosmetic purposes, you are not an anet employee.

Then I want a refund. I don't buy cosmetic crap, thats a waste of money.

A couple million dollars from their publisher sure can, you don't seriously think these companies need DLC money do you?

The bitter side of me can't help but think people so willing to embrace buying their way through a game are not good at any of them.

Prove me wrong. Go.

Cosmetic 'crap' only is a great way to both support Anet (some people here make it seem as if Anet is starving and desperately need our $45 just a bit too much though) if you want to and not give advantages to people for paying. This is what Mercs should have been all along.

I don't care about supporting them, I care about playing the damn game. Games are fun, I buy games, because I buy games, they get money. It's a business not a charity, I didn't put money out to play dress-up if anyone did that's their choice. I put that money out so I can do crap like a 6 man ranger team, screw effectivity and just have more fun playing this game like a dumass. If there going to turn my purchase into dress-up I would think I should get an exchange or a refund.

I've long grown tired of the idea of supporting companies or worshipping them or anything like that. You make a game, I like it, I pay for it, you are happy, I'm happy. To degenerate the purpose of mercenaries is to pretend I owe them something, when I don't they chose the B2P business model. So if I spent 5+ years playing their game after dropping only what $180 canadian on the boxes, that's all fine and dandy.


If someone turned your Nike Running shoes when you bought them for the purpose of running, into clogs that can look like Nikes, would you not expect a refund or exchange?

I don't think Anet would dare do something so ridiculous as removing the purpose of my purchase.

In-game advantages do not bother me, as long as they are kept within a sane level.