The Best Way to Combine Discord, Spirit, Mes Ways

Sir Mad

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Moe's Pub

Pigs Can Fly [Pigs]

25 Mar 2011 at 15:18 - 81

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX View Post

The "only" advantage of Aotl is create one minion for each corpse in earshot AND boost death magic for any successive evocation. Combine it with masochism and runes can easily pump death to 18-20. Aotl became maintenable, and when you cast Aotl @ 18-20 Death is gg.
11x lvl 20 minions.

And how can heroes do not use it properly? AotL is just used anytime you can, and can turn all dead bodies in minion army. Yes, is possible have heroes cast it right before battle w/o corpses, but give them simply "Animate bone horror". Problem solved. BotM for keep minions up and roll! My point, exactly. You need to have another minion skill, so all you get is +1 Death Magic and a few extra minions, which can be useful in areas where there are not many corpses, but it's completely useless in areas with large fleshy mobs.

11 minions? AotL alone won't let you have 11 minions. You need Masochism for that. And the beauty is, if you have Masochism, you don't need AotL to have 11 minions.

Furthermore, heroes won't recast AotL as soon as it's recharged. They recast it when the effect wears off, so the minions created with AotL do not benefit from the death magic bonus.

spray04

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2010

25 Mar 2011 at 15:21 - 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

1)Panic doesn't do damage, Keystone does (You run Keystone for the damage over the rupts anyway tbh).
2)Overload is fine on heroes.
3)Discord is 3 skills out of 64 your right, of which you want spammed constantly otherwise theres no point bringing it.

Excellent example of someone who can't break away from what is essentially an inferior build. Keystone mesmer can replace Panic mesmer depending on situation. Overload can replace Chaos Storm or something else on that bar too. Does Discordway affect these mesmers in any way? No. Your argument is laughable.

Outerworld

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2010

Gil Worz Is Srs [Bsns]

25 Mar 2011 at 15:24 - 83

Quote:

Originally Posted by spray04

Keystone mesmer can replace Panic mesmer depending on situation. Overload can replace Chaos Storm or something else on that bar too. Does Discordway affect these mesmers in any way? No. Your argument is laughable. You said to give examples of AoE that surpase Discord which is exactly what I did.

spray04

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2010

25 Mar 2011 at 15:30 - 84

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

You said to give examples of AoE which surpase Discord which is exactly what I did. And I'm telling you most of your AOE skills are already incorporated into my build, which also happens to incorporate Discordway; in other words you failed at giving me that superior build I originally asked you to provide.

Outerworld

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2010

Gil Worz Is Srs [Bsns]

25 Mar 2011 at 15:34 - 85

Quote:

Originally Posted by spray04

And I'm telling you most of your AOE skills are already incorporated into my build, which also happens to incorporate Discordway; in other words you failed at giving me that superior build I originally asked you to provide. E-surge, Mistrust, CoF, Overload, Unnatural, C-storm, 2 energy managment skills.
Keystone, Mantra of sigs, Symbolic, 5 mesmer signets.

You're no doubt gonna disagree with me w/e I say I'm done here now.

spray04

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2010

25 Mar 2011 at 15:39 - 86

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld View Post

E-surge, Mistrust, CoF, Overload, Unnatural, C-storm, 2 energy managment skills.
Keystone, Mantra of sigs, Symbolic, 5 mesmer signets.

You're no doubt gonna disagree with me w/e I say I'm done here now. Lol, you just don't get it do you. I said, give me a better build than what I have. You then list a bunch of skills that are already in my build. Is it not clear to you that listing something that's already there is not better?

Outerworld

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2010

Gil Worz Is Srs [Bsns]

25 Mar 2011 at 15:43 - 87

Quote:

Originally Posted by spray04 View Post

Lol, you just don't get it do you. I said, give me a better build than what I have. You then list a bunch of skills that are already in my build. Is it not clear to you that listing something that's already there is not better? I gave you 2 builds just then did I not? Of those 2 Builds only a few within the Esurge are actually present.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

25 Mar 2011 at 15:45 - 88

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv View Post

Yea, but the single target inflicted damage from Discord is still more damage than other necro elites provide. I rarely have any problem with hexes and conditions being applied automatically wit those heroes, I hardly ever have to micro a thing, you just have to stand still popping spirits, or spamming prots as an elly and everything ends up dead.

Maybe you have been lucky and shadowsong has been hitting every target you called whenever you looked. But I would seriously look at how often and how fast Discord is used whenever you change target. I use discordway on my necros and mesmers too, but without a hex+condition skill like AP+YMLAD on your player bar to prep each new target, you have to either micro or you hope for the best.

Quote: Theres plenty of AoE damage coming from the mesmers, MoP, and desecrate + defile enchantments x 2. As far as I'm concerned, elite skills are never used for AoE in most heroways. SoS + SoGM arent AoE skills, and neither do spirits have AoE attaks, but no one ever complains about those. Its not very easy healing the discord targets when everything else has the mesmers and spirits doing their job as well. Sure, but that has nothing to do with Discordway. Many of us have successfully used mesmers and rits without Discordway. There is no need for you to sell us what we are already using. As long as you have them, you should be steam rolling through most parts of pve anyway, does it matter if you add discordway into it or not? How much is your Discord really contributing to the team?

Quote:

Discord isnt the only skill on the team setup, its 3 out of 64 skills. It would do you some good to look at the rest of the set up rather than illogically focusing on Discord alone for its lack of AoE.

Its simply no where near as weak, or as bad as others are making it out to be. I am not saying it is weak or bad. I am not saying it is stronger than the other builds either. Even RoJ can kill mobs faster than Discord with a snare.

Quote:

Ineptitude, Shadowsong, Black Powder Mine, Shambling Horrors, Enfeebling Blood + Weaken armor you mean? Discord gets used pretty much all the time. You can also try microing the condition skills as Daesu suggested, but I've never found it neccessary, everything I've tried gets steamrolled anyway. The only places I know of where it wouldnt be the best build to take is in UW + DoA. I'm not so convinced that is wouldnt work in Slavers, but I have never enjoyed doing Eotn dungeons so I'm not really bothered about that. With 7 heroes, most places get steamrolled anyway. I don't need to use discordway to get that and what is even better, our builds can work well in DoA also.

spray04

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2010

25 Mar 2011 at 15:57 - 89

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld View Post

I gave you 2 builds just then did I not? Of those 2 Builds only a few within the Esurge are actually present. I agreed that Keystone and Panic are interchangeable. Then, I can't get another mesmer with ESurge without buying mercs; everything changes with mercs, not gonna go into that.

Either way, you're giving me one or two mesmer bars that fits into my current build without affecting the discordway bars. My original request was for you to give me that "massive AOE damage" that is overwhelmingly better than discord as you claimed. Giving me one or two bars that fit right along side it doesn't accomplish your claim.

If it makes this easier for you to understand, why don't you give me a full 8-bar build.

Outerworld

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2010

Gil Worz Is Srs [Bsns]

25 Mar 2011 at 16:09 - 90

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

25 Mar 2011 at 16:14 - 91

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad View Post

My point, exactly. You need to have another minion skill, so all you get is +1 Death Magic and a few extra minions, which can be useful in areas where there are not many corpses, but it's completely useless in areas with large fleshy mobs.

That is total BS. How can AotL be completely useless in areas with large fleshy mobs?

Quote:

11 minions? AotL alone won't let you have 11 minions. You need Masochism for that. And the beauty is, if you have Masochism, you don't need AotL to have 11 minions.

If Discord MM can bring Masochism, why not an AotL MM? The difference is Aotl makes 12 level 22 horrors attainable with just standard conset.

Quote:

Furthermore, heroes won't recast AotL as soon as it's recharged. They recast it when the effect wears off, so the minions created with AotL do not benefit from the death magic bonus. Another BS. Aotl grants +1 death magic even though it is cast by the hero when the enchantment expires. This is not optimal use, even though you can micro to negate this, but to say that "minions created with AotL do not benefit from the death magic bonus" is just plain WRONG. The number of minions may be the same between death magic level 16 and 17 but you still do get higher level minions. Getting a higher level minion IS a benefit with Aotl!

spray04

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2010

25 Mar 2011 at 16:17 - 92

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld View Post

The spiritway side to it is mostly the same.
The UA means that the odd deaths are non issues and that I don't need any other hybrid healers.
The 2 mesmers provide a shitton of aoe and the para is far from perfect but even that auto-attacking under splinter will be stronger than discord.

I await you're no doubt negative reply. I'm not gonna be negative for no reason. This is a good build, and there are plenty of builds like this out there - it just goes back to my original argument that builds like these aren't convincingly better than the discordway variant (yes it's a variant, 2 mes 2 rit + minion bomber is still the core). You've simply substituted the single target spike for damage through condition spreading. For the damage of Keystone and ESurge, you've sacrificed the shutdown of Panic and Ineptitude.

Outerworld

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2010

Gil Worz Is Srs [Bsns]

25 Mar 2011 at 16:25 - 93

Quote:

Originally Posted by spray04 View Post

I'm not gonna be negative for no reason. This is a good build, and there are plenty of builds like this out there - it just goes back to my original argument that builds like these aren't convincingly better than the discordway variant (yes it's a variant, 2 mes 2 rit + minion bomber is still the core). You've simply substituted the single target spike for damage through condition spreading. The only way to determine if something is convincingly better is to put it to the test if where both being honest.

Sir Mad

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Moe's Pub

Pigs Can Fly [Pigs]

25 Mar 2011 at 17:34 - 94

First off, Daesu, enough with the "OMG u R a n00b" attitude. I'm not your buddy nor your little brother. I'm definitely willing to talk about that skill, but let's do it in a gentle manner, and not with "OMG, that's so BS, lolz!"

Now, to answer your post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

That is total BS. How can AotL be completely useless in areas with large fleshy mobs?

Please, read again. I didn't say AotL was useless in such areas, I said the +1 minion thing from AotL was useless (the reason being obvious: there are enough corpses already).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Another BS. Aotl grants +1 death magic even though it is cast by the hero when the enchantment expires. This is not optimal use, even though you can micro to negate this, but to say that "minions created with AotL do not benefit from the death magic bonus" is just plain WRONG. The number of minions may be the same between death magic level 16 and 17 but you still do get higher level minions. Getting a higher level minion IS a benefit with Aotl! No, that's true when the skill is used by heroes. The Death Magic bonus is applied after the minions are created, so if a hero lets the enchantment expires (and they do it all the time), yes, minions created with AotL do not benefit from the death magic bonus.

And yes, you could micro it. But you have a 2 seconds window every 45 seconds to do it. Good luck with that, unless you're not looking any other hero's bar (or your own skill bar, or the mobs, or... pretty much anything else actually).

DokkyDok

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2007

Interested in finding one.

Mo/

25 Mar 2011 at 17:47 - 95

I don't see why you'd use discord/sabway or even spiritway after the 7 hero update. These hero set-ups compensated for terrible henchies, and while spirits remain good, you should be able to roll through things fast enough now that having to wait for the spirits to recharge would be a disadvantage to bringing them. There certainly would be appropriate areas for them (namely high-end PvE like DoA), but I wouldn't take them for general use (Minus the SoS support, because that's just a plain useful hero bar).

Just my two cents.

Missy Dubourde

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Feb 2008

Order of Twilight Mist

25 Mar 2011 at 19:12 - 96

This is what I've been playing around with. I had been using the typical Discord/Mes/Spirtway builds since I was so used to Discord, but figured I'd switch it up a bit...

It's certainly not the best build possible.
-I switched out SoGM for Soul Twisting and seem to be having a lot better luck with it (especially with dual Fall Back, makes my spirits a bit more mobile).
-My second necromancer is kind of meh, as I think I'm stretching him a bit too thin attribute-wise, but I like having Enfeebling Blood on him since I never get that far down my bar before I'm hitting my first six skills again.
-Very little familiarity with Mesmer skills so they're pretty cookie cutter Mesway heroes.
-I find that having a ton of minions along with a Para with Agressive Refrain is great for triggering MoP.

I'm curious what suggestions people have for making this better.

AndrewSX

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2010

Italy, Turin

Lake

25 Mar 2011 at 20:09 - 97

If you wish use ST with offensive heroes, pump spawing to 12 and drop 2 spirits(@ 12 ST works on 3 spirits).
Drop WW and Channeling on Panic, frustration(arcane conudrum is enough) maybe for a fast cast extra rez on ineptitude. Bone fiend isn't that great on heroes imo. The necro bar can be improve/swapped for something else indeed. Can't really say anything about para-almost 0 experience with them.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

25 Mar 2011 at 20:41 - 98

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad View Post

Please, read again. I didn't say AotL was useless in such areas, I said the +1 minion thing from AotL was useless (the reason being obvious: there are enough corpses already).

Again, it is not useless. How can it be useless when you get higher level minions with Aotl?

Quote:

No, that's true when the skill is used by heroes. The Death Magic bonus is applied after the minions are created, so if a hero lets the enchantment expires (and they do it all the time), yes, minions created with AotL do not benefit from the death magic bonus. That is a small limitation of the AI rather than the skill itself and nobody says you cant micro it if you really want to.

Quote:

And yes, you could micro it. But you have a 2 seconds window every 45 seconds to do it. Good luck with that, unless you're not looking any other hero's bar (or your own skill bar, or the mobs, or... pretty much anything else actually). You find it too hard to just hit a key every 45s? It is not like you need to target anything with it.

Your post was extremely misleading and totally biased against Aotl when it is Discord that is inferior where minion management is concerned.

1. If your necro is too busy casting Discord, it is not creating new minions so your meat shield can go down at anytime. And if he is not busy casting Discord, then your DPS suffers.

2. You don't have BoTM to maintain your minions between mobs as they degen to death.

3. Having more than 1 MM causes corpse competition as there are times when a corpse appears and more than one necro would be trying to exploit it, wasting time and energy.

4. Your level of death magic is lower than an Aotl so your minions are not as strong and not as many.

spray04

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2010

25 Mar 2011 at 21:10 - 99

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missy Dubourde

I'm curious what suggestions people have for making this better. Maybe read the first post in this thread... *facepalms and gives up*

Missy Dubourde

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Feb 2008

Order of Twilight Mist

25 Mar 2011 at 21:38 - 100

Quote:

Originally Posted by spray04

Maybe read the first post in this thread... *facepalms and gives up* I don't think you understood the point of what I was trying to say. My point is, I'm trying to get away from using discord. I was looking for suggestions on the builds I had come up with. Reading a post about having three discord heroes won't really help me much with that, now will it?

spray04

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2010

25 Mar 2011 at 21:53 - 101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missy Dubourde

I don't think you understood the point of what I was trying to say. My point is, I'm trying to get away from using discord. I was looking for suggestions on the builds I had come up with. Reading a post about having three discord heroes won't really help me much with that, now will it? How bout the part that tells you to move the dam rezzes away from healers, still too hard to understand?

Missy Dubourde

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Feb 2008

Order of Twilight Mist

25 Mar 2011 at 23:38 - 102

Does it really matter? I barely ever have to rez anyway.

Dusk_

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

26 Mar 2011 at 00:56 - 103

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad View Post

I love this post. It's funny how some people already think in a GW2 manner (those who love Discordway not because of discord but because of the versatility of each bar), and how some people stick on the old fashioned way: tank/healer/DPS (or at least dedicated healer/DPS).

Yes, a monk for example will most of the time do better at healing than 2 necros with half a healer's bar each. But the thing is... Most of the teams now have up to 30 minions (or even more sometimes), 10 spirits, s*** loads of protection skills (SoYG, ToF, SY!, not to mention the Prot line), so how often do your heroes need to be healed? Yes, sometimes they do, but most of the time they don't. If you bring a dedicated healer, what will he do then when nobody needs a heal? Nothing. You've just wasted a slot. 2 heroes with a hybrid bar instead will use their offensive skills.

Context. The point wasn't "OMG, dedicated healer". It's that there were 4 bars doing the same thing, wasting about 300+ attribute points, when you could take half of those and use it for something else.

There's plenty of reasons to run two hybrids instead of one dedicated healer. 2x Discord, two Minion skills and two curses isn't one of them.

(Also, I'd love to see your screenshots of 30+ minions, in any area that isn't a joke)
Quote:

PS: What's the deal with AotL? It's crap on heroes: they can't use it properly, and basically, the only advantage it has is it gives you +1 Death Magic.

I run it mostly for speed, and because it maintains minions better than any other skill. You run Heroes, your MM is going to be the character slowing down your entire run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spray04

About "massive AOE damage," others have refuted it very well already. It's funny how people are talking like their "AOE damage" builds hit everything with the power of discords at the same time. What are these elites you guys have in mind? RoJ? Searing Flames? Barrage? Please....... I'd get another mesmer with ESurge if I had mercs, but let's not make comparisons with merc setups. One RoJ hitting 3 times on only two targets (Heroes will aim at multiples unless you're calling) is equal to 3 shots of Discord - and you'll get those 3 hits even without snares. Smite Condition and Smite Hex are usable with almost every mob in the game, and will usually hit for more total than a Discord. Granted, I wouldn't recommend using a Smiter monk unless you're a Melee frontliner - but if you are, SoH will deal more effective DPS than Discord as well.

Second copies of Splinter Weapon and Ancestor's Rage won't overlap, and are better damage dealers than Discord.

Throw some spears on your spirit spammers and yourself, maybe bring a Paragon, and voila, you can use an Orders Necro - also more DPS than Discord.

Hell, I'd say Ravenous Gaze will deal more effective DPS, unless you're actively microing all your Discords.

spray04

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2010

26 Mar 2011 at 02:07 - 104

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

Hell, I'd say Ravenous Gaze will deal more effective DPS, unless you're actively microing all your Discords. You just lost all credibility when you hit this point. Also, please go learn what the terms "spiking" and "recharge" mean.

Dusk_

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

26 Mar 2011 at 02:28 - 105

Quote:

Originally Posted by spray04

You just lost all credibility when you hit this point. Also, please go learn what the terms "spiking" and "recharge" mean. Seriously? Discord hits once every 3 seconds, if your Heroes actually prioritize it. They don't. Once every 5 seconds is probably your average bet, if even. That's 200 damage every 10 seconds.

Ravenous Gaze needs to hit 4 targets to match that...and with Nearby radius, it's doable. You only need 2 hits to match the per-hit cast damage as well.

Smite Condition and Smite Hex are both Area range, meaning it's a joke to get them to hit multiple targets, especially if you're a front liner. Smite Condition: 3 hits = Absolute optimized Discord spam in DPS. Smite Hex is 3.5...and unlike Discord, they actually have additional utility.

Splinter Weapon, absolutely no comparison. Just a single adjacent enemy, and you have higher DPS. That's it. Ancestor's Rage, 3 enemies = optimized Discord, 2 enemies = C+Space Discord.

RoJ is a different beast entirely, but if you bother to do any grouping, almost nothing beats it.

Kaida the Heartless

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

26 Mar 2011 at 03:44 - 106

If one more person suggest that Splinter Weapon is a good reason to bring a Paragon I'm going to choke a small animal. Please don't make me do it.

majoho

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Denmark

26 Mar 2011 at 07:37 - 107

I actually bring a paragon with Splinter Weapon sometimes, but please leave the little animals alone

Kaida the Heartless

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

26 Mar 2011 at 09:14 - 108

That's fine, but some people seem to think a copy of Splinter Weapon on your bars means you HAVE to run a Paragon. *facepalm*

Sir Mad

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Moe's Pub

Pigs Can Fly [Pigs]

26 Mar 2011 at 10:30 - 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

*snip*

Yeah, so you're basically saying that the only real advantage of this skill is to have +1 Death Magic, which is what I'm saying since the beginning...

Quote: Of course not. Read the skill description.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk

*snip* Don't get me wrong: my comment about the healers/DPS was not directed to you - that was more a general consideration.

Concerning the "30 minions" part, I said "up to".

However, yeah, there are places where you can come close to this number, like Factions missions, or some EotN dungeons. But I agree it's harder in elite areas, with a few exceptions (like some parts of FoW - the Burning Forest for example).

Outerworld

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2010

Gil Worz Is Srs [Bsns]

26 Mar 2011 at 10:45 - 110

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless View Post

That's fine, but some people seem to think a copy of Splinter Weapon on your bars means you HAVE to run a Paragon. *facepalm* You don't have to run a para when you have splinter but they're alot more reliable than the minions.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

26 Mar 2011 at 16:43 - 111

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad View Post

Yeah, so you're basically saying that the only real advantage of this skill is to have +1 Death Magic, which is what I'm saying since the beginning...

All corpses within earshot are exploited and you animate a level 1...14...17 bone horror plus one for each corpse exploited in this way. For 5...37...45 seconds, your Death Magic attribute is increased by +1. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Aura_of_the_lich

Sir Mad

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Moe's Pub

Pigs Can Fly [Pigs]

26 Mar 2011 at 17:25 - 112

OK, I give up. You win. ><

Kaida the Heartless

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

26 Mar 2011 at 17:45 - 113

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld View Post

You don't have to run a para when you have splinter but they're alot more reliable than the minions. Nobody runs martial weapons anymore?

Sir Mad

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Moe's Pub

Pigs Can Fly [Pigs]

26 Mar 2011 at 17:52 - 114

Well I hope martial professions characters still do.

At least I do with my ranger - Splinter + Barrage or Incendiary Arrows and Volley is deadly (and I'm actually the main source of AoE damage with my heroes).

Outerworld

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2010

Gil Worz Is Srs [Bsns]

26 Mar 2011 at 18:00 - 115

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Nobody runs martial weapons anymore? Again a ranged hero will be more reliable than melee hero, although dervs may be ok I can't say I've tried them tbh.