Hello.
I am aware that there are probably a lot of similiar topics like this one, but I am simply too angered to sit down and don't do anything.
I am extremely sick of the design of the Paragons.
It's not the armors I am talking about (even though they are pretty much the laziest excuses for armors I´ve seen in a while, besides Obsidian and Norn).
It's the skills.
The elite skills are simply too bad and boring and only like 2 and 3 are being used (Incoming!, Focused Anger and whatever elite spear attack).
So many skills are so horribly designed.
Defensive Anthem is like Aegis only elite and it ends on attack
"Incoming!" is just fallback with 5 less energy cost and it doesn´t end on attack.
"You have the power!" is not useful at all...
Angelic bound is awful.
Song of restoration is OK but there are still much better alternatives out there for monks/rits.
And the list goes on and on.
Most elites need a complete redesign.
For starters, let´s take defensive anthem. I have some suggestions for it, for example it could either make so that party members cant take more than 10% hp for x duration or that the next spell against every party member fails.
"Incoming!" should NOT act like an elite "Fall back!" This is just Anet being lazy. It should at least be maintainable or they could remove the healing and make it 50% speed and make the recharge a tad longer.
For "You have the power!" I have no clue really, I think it could be far more useful if it didn't regen and would just give x amount of energy whenever a party member uses a skill.
Angelic bound is a difficult one, but I think it could perhaps use the "Party members cant lose more than 10% hp for x seconds" instead of defensive anthem.
Song of restoration could at least provide more healing if party members are below 50% hp.
Like, it remains in its original form just that they gain additional 100hp (or whatever is max) if party members are below 50% hp.
Do any of you agree with me on these? Don't you think it's time for Paragons to recieve buff/Changes?
Paragon needs a redesign
Kentz
wilebill
The Paragon is overdue for a rebuild similar to that of the Dervish. Agree it is time. However, you do not mention some very useful Elites.
Anthem of Fury, worth pushing Leadership to 13 to get 4 strikes of adrenaline. My party often has a Dervish and a Warrior. Using Anthem of Fury whenever it gets hot is really effective.
Anthem of Guidance and Crippling Anthem are both very useful in certain situations.
Stunning Strike often useful against caster bosses.
No information on when there will be a Paragon rebuild. Seem to remember it having been mentioned at one time.
Anthem of Fury, worth pushing Leadership to 13 to get 4 strikes of adrenaline. My party often has a Dervish and a Warrior. Using Anthem of Fury whenever it gets hot is really effective.
Anthem of Guidance and Crippling Anthem are both very useful in certain situations.
Stunning Strike often useful against caster bosses.
No information on when there will be a Paragon rebuild. Seem to remember it having been mentioned at one time.
dasmitchies
Paragons are not a priority. The problem is balancing them is a nightmare. Partywide unstripable buffs caused this class to be beaten down with the nerf bat. Any attempt to fix this class will mean it is overpowered. 1 'gon = imba. 4 'gons = game over.
ian1421
Skill balance updates
In 2009, ANet announced plans to release skill balance changes every other month.[5][6] usually on a Thursday. In 2010, there were 7 updates that involved balancing skills or other aspects of game play: two during each quarter of the year, except the third (which had only one).
These are the pending updates most recently mentioned by ANet:
In April 2010, ANet staff said, "[...] non-“Imbagon” Paragons, and the smiting line for the Monk" are "things we’ve been considering for major updates of their own."[7]. In January 2011, John Stumme mentioned that the Live Team would focus on "smaller balance fixes" instead of "major overhauls" in the near future, instead prioritizing unspecified non-balance changes.[8][9]
I agree they need revamping, and anet are aware too, we are just waiting
Personally I'd like to see a change with ranger > paragon atm only because I can't see paras being fun to play with or without change, we'll see 
In 2009, ANet announced plans to release skill balance changes every other month.[5][6] usually on a Thursday. In 2010, there were 7 updates that involved balancing skills or other aspects of game play: two during each quarter of the year, except the third (which had only one).
These are the pending updates most recently mentioned by ANet:
In April 2010, ANet staff said, "[...] non-“Imbagon” Paragons, and the smiting line for the Monk" are "things we’ve been considering for major updates of their own."[7]. In January 2011, John Stumme mentioned that the Live Team would focus on "smaller balance fixes" instead of "major overhauls" in the near future, instead prioritizing unspecified non-balance changes.[8][9]
I agree they need revamping, and anet are aware too, we are just waiting
Personally I'd like to see a change with ranger > paragon atm only because I can't see paras being fun to play with or without change, we'll see
bucking boar
When im looking to group with my paragon it feels like I can only benefit my group (or even get one) with imbagon
when im playing by myself I use one of three builds: imba,disco way caller or an sos.
useing a legit spear build is just boring, and feels way underpowered
On the other hand racway is just amazing; can do almost every thing with just my heroes fairly easily, so if they revamp the paragon there is probably going to be major issues with not making racway just an insta-win hero build.
when im playing by myself I use one of three builds: imba,disco way caller or an sos.
useing a legit spear build is just boring, and feels way underpowered
On the other hand racway is just amazing; can do almost every thing with just my heroes fairly easily, so if they revamp the paragon there is probably going to be major issues with not making racway just an insta-win hero build.
gremlin
I recon given enough time they will go over all the classes, Paragons are I believe next on the list followed hopefully by Rangers.
I find the paragon class quite useful as part of a team and there have been quite a few team builds posted mainly paragon rangers I seem to remember.
I find the paragon class quite useful as part of a team and there have been quite a few team builds posted mainly paragon rangers I seem to remember.
FoxBat
People would whine alot less with a spear barrage honestly. No really cares how much support they can pump (i.e. the point of the class), they just want big numbers.
The Superb Killer
As dasmitchies said, it is difficult to balance Paragons. If ArenaNet makes them more viable in PvE teams, they may become overpowered in PvP, in a sense. For example, two or three paragons could deal decent amounts of damage and make a GvG team too defensive to take down.
I agree with Angelic Bond being bad; it's almost the same as Divine Intervention, though it's of elite status and doesn't benefit from HSR. At least it can't be removed. However, a Monk with Mending and Blessed Signet has the potential to restore more health in the 30 second recharge of Angelic Bond. Bad example there.
I like Paragons in PvE, nonetheless. It's a fun class, and with mulitiple Paragons, teams can end up being very solid.
I agree with Angelic Bond being bad; it's almost the same as Divine Intervention, though it's of elite status and doesn't benefit from HSR. At least it can't be removed. However, a Monk with Mending and Blessed Signet has the potential to restore more health in the 30 second recharge of Angelic Bond. Bad example there.
I like Paragons in PvE, nonetheless. It's a fun class, and with mulitiple Paragons, teams can end up being very solid.
Mednes
Anet knows that paragons need a buff and buffing skills wouldn't be hard. But the problem is(as mentioned above) that when multiple paragons are in a party they would be unbeatable, becuase of too high defence. Only Armor-ignoring damage or burning may bring them down. In other words it's Mesmers/Necros VS Paragons. And the other professions won't have a chance.
Btw: if they buff the other paragon skills, they should nerf the imbagon. i.e. make SY a strength skills instead of a PvE skill.
Btw: if they buff the other paragon skills, they should nerf the imbagon. i.e. make SY a strength skills instead of a PvE skill.
shinyglove
you come to this conclusion 5 years after release..?
it needed a change on day 1, it's a bit late now.
it needed a change on day 1, it's a bit late now.
Mednes
Axel Zinfandel
Paragons do not need a dervish sized rework, they need tweaked like mesmers. The problem with paragons is that too many of their skills are far too specific (skills triggering on signet, ect) or have far too large a recharge for use in PvE (motivation). However i have stated my ideas far too many times to regurgitate in this thread.
Paragons also do not need an AoE spear attack, as they are not a damage class. Pick a different class if you want AoE.
Paragons also do not need an AoE spear attack, as they are not a damage class. Pick a different class if you want AoE.
majoho
I don't see any redesign needed, paragons do their designed roles pretty well already.
Skyy High
Step 1: Nerf imbagon.
Step 2: Buff motivation skills to be worth bringing again. Most importantly: get rid of stupid triggers. No one brings enough signets for Lyrics to be worthwhile, for instance.
Step 3: Change elites around. Paras don't need 3 party condition removers.
Spear and command lines are basically fine, they do what they do and they do it well.
Step 2: Buff motivation skills to be worth bringing again. Most importantly: get rid of stupid triggers. No one brings enough signets for Lyrics to be worthwhile, for instance.
Step 3: Change elites around. Paras don't need 3 party condition removers.
Spear and command lines are basically fine, they do what they do and they do it well.
Kojima
I usually run two dervishes or one dev and a warrior too and Anthem of Fury is really good to use. Also, my para hero seems to hang in there even when the whole team got wiped out and he would be the only one left following me when I run for the hills. I think the paragon deserves some praises.
But I seriously do not like what they wear too.
But I seriously do not like what they wear too.
Coast
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentz
Hello.
For starters, let´s take defensive anthem. I have some suggestions for it, for example it could either make so that party members cant take more than 10% hp for x duration or that the next spell against every party member fails.
nice, partywide prot spirit or spellbreaker that can't be removed
For starters, let´s take defensive anthem. I have some suggestions for it, for example it could either make so that party members cant take more than 10% hp for x duration or that the next spell against every party member fails.
nice, partywide prot spirit or spellbreaker that can't be removed
Kentz
Lanier
paragons don't need a dervish-update sized rework (which is good cause anet isn't doing any more of these). What they need is a mesmer-update sized skill update.
I agree that several elites are pretty useless (in PvE). All of the command ones need an update. For anthem of guidance, they could give +dmg onto the next attack skill in addition to the unblockability. For crippling anthem, I would suggest adding more conditions (cripple, weakness, and bleeding maybe). For Incoming, I would suggest lowering the recharge to 10ish and making it so that the next damage done to each party member is negated and each party member gains 10% of the damage done to them in +armor for x seconds.
Angelic bond is one of the most useless elites in the game. I wouldn't even use it if it were non-elite. I suggest changing it back to its original functionality (except with a 5 energy cost and 5 sec recharge), as it was useful in gimmicky builds with its original functionality.
Defensive Anthem could use a small duration buff in PvE.
Anthem of Fury is sorta fine as it is, but it is also sort of limited in usefulness also. I don't have a specific recommendation for it, but I would like to see another effect added onto it in addition to the adrenaline gain. Recharge or energy cost could be increased to compensate.
Focused anger and soldier's fury are fine as they are, as are stunning strike, cruel spear, song of purification, and its just a flesh wound.
Song of Restoration needs pretty significant reduction in recharge (10 sec I would suggest) in PvE.
Cautery signet is too redundant with song of purification and its just a flesh wound. I would recommend turning into a kind of party-wide hex removal, as this would give paragons a unique niche. Recharge would have to increase of course to compensate, and a more severe downside than burning on the user might be necessary as well.
The Power is yours is pretty bad at its intended functionality, and is really only commonly used to fuel the user with energy. I would suggest changing it so that it gives x amount of energy to all party members. Pretty simple functionality but pretty useful as well. Of course, recharge and energy cost could be adjusted to balance the skill.
Anyway, there are my ideas for the elites. Several non-elites need updates as well but I'll leave those alone for now.
I agree that several elites are pretty useless (in PvE). All of the command ones need an update. For anthem of guidance, they could give +dmg onto the next attack skill in addition to the unblockability. For crippling anthem, I would suggest adding more conditions (cripple, weakness, and bleeding maybe). For Incoming, I would suggest lowering the recharge to 10ish and making it so that the next damage done to each party member is negated and each party member gains 10% of the damage done to them in +armor for x seconds.
Angelic bond is one of the most useless elites in the game. I wouldn't even use it if it were non-elite. I suggest changing it back to its original functionality (except with a 5 energy cost and 5 sec recharge), as it was useful in gimmicky builds with its original functionality.
Defensive Anthem could use a small duration buff in PvE.
Anthem of Fury is sorta fine as it is, but it is also sort of limited in usefulness also. I don't have a specific recommendation for it, but I would like to see another effect added onto it in addition to the adrenaline gain. Recharge or energy cost could be increased to compensate.
Focused anger and soldier's fury are fine as they are, as are stunning strike, cruel spear, song of purification, and its just a flesh wound.
Song of Restoration needs pretty significant reduction in recharge (10 sec I would suggest) in PvE.
Cautery signet is too redundant with song of purification and its just a flesh wound. I would recommend turning into a kind of party-wide hex removal, as this would give paragons a unique niche. Recharge would have to increase of course to compensate, and a more severe downside than burning on the user might be necessary as well.
The Power is yours is pretty bad at its intended functionality, and is really only commonly used to fuel the user with energy. I would suggest changing it so that it gives x amount of energy to all party members. Pretty simple functionality but pretty useful as well. Of course, recharge and energy cost could be adjusted to balance the skill.
Anyway, there are my ideas for the elites. Several non-elites need updates as well but I'll leave those alone for now.
KotCR
Definetly agree Paragon needs some help. Though it's true it doesn't need as big an update as the Dervish did.
Both Commander and Spear Mastery are currently servicible, but could do with some tweaks. There is quite a few redundant attacks in Spear Mastery, that need their functionality changed, and Command has a handful of regular skills that need to be reworked also, aswell as pretty much all it's elites. For the most part these two lines are okay though.
However, Leadership needs some help. It's an odd line; It has about 50% very useful or powerful skills (They're On Fire, Blazing Finale, Enduring Harmony, Awe/Spear Swipe etc), and 50% useless or incredibly underpowered skills (Angellic Bond, Natural Temper, Defensive Anthem, Burning Shield, etc). The truth is, a couple skills would fit better in other lines anyway. It's passive effect could probably do with a rework or at least some tweaking (energy gain should scale with party size), though as far as reworks are concerned I don't really know what to suggest.
Above all, Motivation needs a total rework though, and I feel is the most important thing that should be addressed. Almost all of the skills in the line are too situational, have vasty inferior healing (and "they can't be removed!" isn't really a good excuse, seems neither can a heal spell...), even some of the elites have stronger non-elite equivalents on other professions (compare Ballad/Song of Restoration to Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight. Yeah.), and are just generally weak overall. Unless you team up with 7 other Paragons, then you activate god-mode. Some synergy with other Paragons can remain but needs to be vastly toned down, and the skills all need to become usable or workable when the Paragon is the lone shouter in the group.
A Motivation Paragon should be a viable party healer in the same way Restoration Ritualists are now (Paragons actually were on NF release, but PvP centric balance updates changed that, and never got reverted enough with the skill split...), since this is clearly one of their intended roles (as Factions also added another healer, it makes sense to make one new class a party healer for helping the influx of new class players on release form viable teams, even though the game is beyond that stage now of course) but currently this is certainly not the case. The manual also stated that one Paragon role was to help the party resist hexes and conditions, and while they manage the conditions resistance rather well, I'd like to see them with more options than Hexbreaker Aria for dealing with hexes too.
If the Dervish's role was (and certainly now is focused on) pressure damage, then it makes alot of sense to have the Paragon a class focused on resisting pressure damage - many of the skills in the Paragon lines actually reflect this intention too as one original function of the class (Mending Refrain and Never Surrender are both prime examples of this), but most have been nerfed too much to really be able to fulfill this role now. They need to find a way to reimpliment it while retaining class balance.
The Ritualist has strong passive and on-demand spike healing, with solid condition removal, but no hex removal and limited hex resistance.
So the Paragon should have strong passive healing, with solid condition and hex removal/resistance but weaker and/or limited on-demand spike heals.
Both Commander and Spear Mastery are currently servicible, but could do with some tweaks. There is quite a few redundant attacks in Spear Mastery, that need their functionality changed, and Command has a handful of regular skills that need to be reworked also, aswell as pretty much all it's elites. For the most part these two lines are okay though.
However, Leadership needs some help. It's an odd line; It has about 50% very useful or powerful skills (They're On Fire, Blazing Finale, Enduring Harmony, Awe/Spear Swipe etc), and 50% useless or incredibly underpowered skills (Angellic Bond, Natural Temper, Defensive Anthem, Burning Shield, etc). The truth is, a couple skills would fit better in other lines anyway. It's passive effect could probably do with a rework or at least some tweaking (energy gain should scale with party size), though as far as reworks are concerned I don't really know what to suggest.
Above all, Motivation needs a total rework though, and I feel is the most important thing that should be addressed. Almost all of the skills in the line are too situational, have vasty inferior healing (and "they can't be removed!" isn't really a good excuse, seems neither can a heal spell...), even some of the elites have stronger non-elite equivalents on other professions (compare Ballad/Song of Restoration to Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight. Yeah.), and are just generally weak overall. Unless you team up with 7 other Paragons, then you activate god-mode. Some synergy with other Paragons can remain but needs to be vastly toned down, and the skills all need to become usable or workable when the Paragon is the lone shouter in the group.
A Motivation Paragon should be a viable party healer in the same way Restoration Ritualists are now (Paragons actually were on NF release, but PvP centric balance updates changed that, and never got reverted enough with the skill split...), since this is clearly one of their intended roles (as Factions also added another healer, it makes sense to make one new class a party healer for helping the influx of new class players on release form viable teams, even though the game is beyond that stage now of course) but currently this is certainly not the case. The manual also stated that one Paragon role was to help the party resist hexes and conditions, and while they manage the conditions resistance rather well, I'd like to see them with more options than Hexbreaker Aria for dealing with hexes too.
If the Dervish's role was (and certainly now is focused on) pressure damage, then it makes alot of sense to have the Paragon a class focused on resisting pressure damage - many of the skills in the Paragon lines actually reflect this intention too as one original function of the class (Mending Refrain and Never Surrender are both prime examples of this), but most have been nerfed too much to really be able to fulfill this role now. They need to find a way to reimpliment it while retaining class balance.
The Ritualist has strong passive and on-demand spike healing, with solid condition removal, but no hex removal and limited hex resistance.
So the Paragon should have strong passive healing, with solid condition and hex removal/resistance but weaker and/or limited on-demand spike heals.
Bobby Sox
Yes, Paragons need help. Two of the main reasons they were nerfed after the release of Nightfall were to stop the 8 Paragon teams that were forming (notably in HA), and to stop GvG Paragons from tipping the scale too much with shouts and anthems when all the NPCs walked out to the flagstand during Victory or Death. The latter is no longer an issue, though the former could still be a problem if handled incorrectly.
To fix the issues Paragons face, I'd first suggest reinstating all the old ally-affecting shouts and chants to their former glory. This in and of itself would have little effect on GvG and HA, but would help in AB and PvE, for example.
Secondly, an idea that I proposed a long time ago, but was brutally shot down due to the fact that Racway *could* handle 4-man areas of PvE: I'd suggest that Leadership at least be changed to give 2 energy per ally affected by your shouts and chants with the maximum remaining the same as currently. This aids the Paragon in smaller player count areas, such as RA, GvG split situations, and certain PvE areas. It will not, however, change the delicate energy-cost balance in other situations.
Third, as many have already stated, many skills are too niche, have too long a recharge, or are simply inferior to other classes. The best example of this is the one made about Ballad of Restoration versus Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight. All require earshot, Ballad heals for a little more at the cost of 5 more energy (although reduced by Leadership) and a conditional trigger (the party members have to take damage to be healed). At the same time, however, Ballad has a 30/20 second recharge in PvP/PvE versus the 12 second recharge of the monk spells. Paragons do not have their own PvE version of Unyielding Aura, etc. to boost the healing amount, either.
The trouble with fixing most of these skills is obviously the effect it will have when multiplied by numerous Paragons. Really, though, the main difference between an all-Paragon team and an all-anything else team is the constant triggering of finales, echoes, and refrains from party members' shouts and chants. the obvious fix to me would be to change these skills to something more on the lines of many Ritualist spells: "If you are under the effects of a shout or chant, x happens". This makes the Paragon no better off in a full group than Ritualists making use of other's spirits/weapon spells while allowing the shouts and chants to be rebuffed in their own right.
To fix the issues Paragons face, I'd first suggest reinstating all the old ally-affecting shouts and chants to their former glory. This in and of itself would have little effect on GvG and HA, but would help in AB and PvE, for example.
Secondly, an idea that I proposed a long time ago, but was brutally shot down due to the fact that Racway *could* handle 4-man areas of PvE: I'd suggest that Leadership at least be changed to give 2 energy per ally affected by your shouts and chants with the maximum remaining the same as currently. This aids the Paragon in smaller player count areas, such as RA, GvG split situations, and certain PvE areas. It will not, however, change the delicate energy-cost balance in other situations.
Third, as many have already stated, many skills are too niche, have too long a recharge, or are simply inferior to other classes. The best example of this is the one made about Ballad of Restoration versus Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight. All require earshot, Ballad heals for a little more at the cost of 5 more energy (although reduced by Leadership) and a conditional trigger (the party members have to take damage to be healed). At the same time, however, Ballad has a 30/20 second recharge in PvP/PvE versus the 12 second recharge of the monk spells. Paragons do not have their own PvE version of Unyielding Aura, etc. to boost the healing amount, either.
The trouble with fixing most of these skills is obviously the effect it will have when multiplied by numerous Paragons. Really, though, the main difference between an all-Paragon team and an all-anything else team is the constant triggering of finales, echoes, and refrains from party members' shouts and chants. the obvious fix to me would be to change these skills to something more on the lines of many Ritualist spells: "If you are under the effects of a shout or chant, x happens". This makes the Paragon no better off in a full group than Ritualists making use of other's spirits/weapon spells while allowing the shouts and chants to be rebuffed in their own right.
Khomet Si Netjer
Many of us seem to be thinking along the same lines... some changes to spear mastery, changing highly conditional and/or useless skills in Command and Leadership, and reworking Motivation to give healing and energy over time so that it does not directly compete with the monk and ritualist. I have compiled a rather lengthy list of suggestions for all of these things, please feel free to leave comments if you have better ideas. Realistically it may not matter much since Arenanet seems disinclined to do what they said they were going to do in May 2010... they seem content to let Guild Wars 1 wither away in its current state. :-\
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:..._skill_changes
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:..._skill_changes
Demon's Dance
<Sarcasm>"Never give up"...choose a secondary paragon to fuel all your casters with energy.Anthem of Disruption ... go go 8 black bears,2-3 ritualists teams.Anthem of Guidance + Godspeed - go go 25% faster,unblockable 8 black bears,2-3 rits teams.Maybe adding some damage to those reapers...Anthem of Envy + Anthem of Fury(not to all of them because ...it's madness).But there is always a room for a MM.Hell yeah.You think this is not enough.Consider bringing Defensive Anthem.1 copy is enough but you could take 2.
</Sarcasm>
Angelic Protection + Shadow Form + "Can't Touch This!" + Song of Concentration + "Brace Yourself!" = Teh perfect tank
Most Motivation changes are perfectly balanced = there are better alternatives.
Spear changes ...me likes
P.S.You misunderstood my suggestion and you call yours ...balanced.
P.P.S.Please look at the very bottom of the page,now look my suggestion.It makes sense.http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/d...441769p26.html
</Sarcasm>
Angelic Protection + Shadow Form + "Can't Touch This!" + Song of Concentration + "Brace Yourself!" = Teh perfect tank
Most Motivation changes are perfectly balanced = there are better alternatives.
Spear changes ...me likes
P.S.You misunderstood my suggestion and you call yours ...balanced.
P.P.S.Please look at the very bottom of the page,now look my suggestion.It makes sense.http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/d...441769p26.html
Mednes
I really don't know what's with the post above mine...
Anyway they should nerf imbagon for better balance.
Anyway they should nerf imbagon for better balance.
Hymn
In my opinion there are pros and cons regarding the paragon and having a Para as a main, I could attest to some of the claims.
So let me start by pointing out its good side. The whole party buffing concept and its mid-range abilities really made me want to make a Para (which I did 3 years ago) and considering placing another 2-4 more Para heroes in your party would be massive damage vis-a-vis constant adrenaline pumping, damage reduction, heals, and overall survivability. Adding skills such as Anthem of Fury, Stand your Ground!, Anthem of Envy, Find their Weakness!, and many more greatly increases overall impact of having a Paragon in a party. True enough that a Paragon does stand out from the other professions and defining its role as a model of perfection.
As a counterpoint to what I've said above, a lot of their skills are quite lackluster an example of which are Angelic Bond, Lyrics, Cautery sig and others. Mostly (if not all) players who play Paragons have rarely touched the Motivation tree and I can say that it's really something Anet needs to work on since most of the skills' effects have a minor role in most parties. Another downfall that I'd want to share is that their lack of flexibility in terms of good party buffing with regards to having all attributes filled (a possibility would be 12 Spear, 9 Leadership, half/half Command & moti) as their good skills require high points in a specific "buff" attribute for it to shine.
With all of these said, I'm quite leaning on a revamp of the Para but as is they are quite overwhelming if given the right set of choices.
Hymn
So let me start by pointing out its good side. The whole party buffing concept and its mid-range abilities really made me want to make a Para (which I did 3 years ago) and considering placing another 2-4 more Para heroes in your party would be massive damage vis-a-vis constant adrenaline pumping, damage reduction, heals, and overall survivability. Adding skills such as Anthem of Fury, Stand your Ground!, Anthem of Envy, Find their Weakness!, and many more greatly increases overall impact of having a Paragon in a party. True enough that a Paragon does stand out from the other professions and defining its role as a model of perfection.
As a counterpoint to what I've said above, a lot of their skills are quite lackluster an example of which are Angelic Bond, Lyrics, Cautery sig and others. Mostly (if not all) players who play Paragons have rarely touched the Motivation tree and I can say that it's really something Anet needs to work on since most of the skills' effects have a minor role in most parties. Another downfall that I'd want to share is that their lack of flexibility in terms of good party buffing with regards to having all attributes filled (a possibility would be 12 Spear, 9 Leadership, half/half Command & moti) as their good skills require high points in a specific "buff" attribute for it to shine.
With all of these said, I'm quite leaning on a revamp of the Para but as is they are quite overwhelming if given the right set of choices.
Hymn
chuckles79
I think the price of headache medication would skyrocket in Western Washington if the ANet team attempted in any way to modify the paragon for PvP use.
If it were up to me, I'd do it anyway because I feel that HA and GvG are niche formats; but I understand how important they are to Anet and their vision for the game's PvP.
The paragon was nerfed because of PvP, and the nerfs happened before the split. Now that the split has happened, how about they start with reverting nerfs back to release, and change the functionality of lyrics to something other than signets.
That would take care of 90% of the problems people gripe about.
The rest, remove 3 second activation times on spear attacks for cripes sake, and give Slayer's spear a volley like effect with 3x speed, because A. cost 10e and 10s recharge it's not elite, and B. There are already plenty of spear attacks that cause deepwound.
Make Mighty Spear cause cracked armor.
And done. Racway is ultra strong, but more importantly you can have more than one para on a PuG without having some "it's not meta" creep ragequit.
Which is what it's all about at the end of the day.
If it were up to me, I'd do it anyway because I feel that HA and GvG are niche formats; but I understand how important they are to Anet and their vision for the game's PvP.
The paragon was nerfed because of PvP, and the nerfs happened before the split. Now that the split has happened, how about they start with reverting nerfs back to release, and change the functionality of lyrics to something other than signets.
That would take care of 90% of the problems people gripe about.
The rest, remove 3 second activation times on spear attacks for cripes sake, and give Slayer's spear a volley like effect with 3x speed, because A. cost 10e and 10s recharge it's not elite, and B. There are already plenty of spear attacks that cause deepwound.
Make Mighty Spear cause cracked armor.
And done. Racway is ultra strong, but more importantly you can have more than one para on a PuG without having some "it's not meta" creep ragequit.
Which is what it's all about at the end of the day.
Lanier
I dont really think that paragons should be modified in PvP. They already have their uses in the 8 man formats, and it would take a lot of time on the part of the developer team to adjust a paragon to be more viable in the 4 man formats.
As for your other recommendations... well they're fine but paragons need more than just what you recommended. Their primary problem is that they are a support class without many good support skills. In my opinion, the chants, shouts, echos, and other random skills (angelic protection, angelic bond, the signets, etc.) need to be the focus of a paragon update. If anet gives paragons AoE capabilities, it should be in the form of a support skill, sorta like splinter (one that, of course, can be used on the user should the user choose to do so).
As for your other recommendations... well they're fine but paragons need more than just what you recommended. Their primary problem is that they are a support class without many good support skills. In my opinion, the chants, shouts, echos, and other random skills (angelic protection, angelic bond, the signets, etc.) need to be the focus of a paragon update. If anet gives paragons AoE capabilities, it should be in the form of a support skill, sorta like splinter (one that, of course, can be used on the user should the user choose to do so).
Bobby Sox
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanier
Quote: I dont really think that paragons should be modified in PvP. They already have their uses in the 8 man formats, and it would take a lot of time on the part of the developer team to adjust a paragon to be more viable in the 4 man formats. On this point, however, I have to disagree a little bit. I feel that Paragons don't need that much help for them to see more PvP action, but there are a few issues there, too. They may almost all be solved, though, by fixing Leadership's benefit for smaller arenas like I mentioned in my previous post.
I understand that too much fiddling will easily upset the GvG and HA balance, for what they are worth. Nonetheless, they are the only profession who's primary attribute fails them in the absense of a full team.
Now, I'm not saying that Paragons should be the kings of soloing. In formats such as RA and Codex, it is impossible to have an 8-man team, however. Also, in places such as JQ, it is highly improbable and not desireable to have your entire team focused at one spot on the map. About the only way you would get full benefit from Leadership's energy gain there would be if you were guarding a shrine (should you be using a shout or chant that affects allies). Then we come back around to the other point about the support skills, though.
I do not see how changing Leadership to 2 energy per affected ally will harm GvG or HA at all. Please feel free to prove me wrong, but the only possible problem I can see is that a single target shout would cost 1 less energy on a primary Paragon than it currently does. The change, would, however, drastically improve the Paragon in lower player count arenas.
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I won't argue that but I don't see how nerfing SY will help the paragon, instead it will only remove one of the only "viable" roles the paragon has... and as you have pointed out, SY is a warrior skill.|
Originally Posted by chuckles79
Now that the split has happened, how about they start with reverting nerfs back to release
As far as ally-affecting versus party-affecting shouts and chants, do you see much harm in reverting that aspect in PvP, too? Ritualist spirits getting buffs from the chants could be easily remedied by making it "non spirit allies" if it's a big deal. Otherwise, about the only time you are going to affect more than one or two allies at a time in either GvG or HA would be if you were cloistered around your Guild Lord. I really don't view that as a problem, myself.
[email protected]!k3
This needs a bump. Though, I can see how this discussion has stopped because simply, the problems are so obvious that we pretty much stated the most of what's wrong. Thinking of a solution is the hard part; the Paragon is already an abstract concept as it stands, so thinking of an equally abstract solution is equally hard. You'd think that the live team would at least do small changes at a time; like the other professions, but when was the last update for any Para skill? I can't even recall. I know they probably have their hands full with GW2 and what-not, but the problems are blatant.
I can't really think of any suggestions at the moment, but it would be nice to maybe start a brainstorm that we can agree on for a basis of a foundation that would make Paras more viable and less reliant on just one build.
Khomet Si Netjer
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected]!k3
This needs a bump. Though, I can see how this discussion has stopped because simply, the problems are so obvious that we pretty much stated the most of what's wrong. Thinking of a solution is the hard part; the Paragon is already an abstract concept as it stands, so thinking of an equally abstract solution is equally hard. You'd think that the live team would at least do small changes at a time; like the other professions, but when was the last update for any Para skill? I can't even recall. I know they probably have their hands full with GW2 and what-not, but the problems are blatant.
I can't really think of any suggestions at the moment, but it would be nice to maybe start a brainstorm that we can agree on for a basis of a foundation that would make Paras more viable and less reliant on just one build. I have compiled a list of suggestions that (hopefully) address every problem with the paragon, I am reposting a link for convenience. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:..._skill_changes If you care to look through these please keep the following in mind... - The ideas are more important than the numbers. Numbers can easily be tweaked up or down. - Many skills have been buffed from their current versions. This is necessary for the paragon to do its job; if other professions' skills are unquestionably superior to the paragon, there is no reason for the paragon to exist. - If you have a better idea or you have an idea for a skill not covered here, please share it so we can discuss. Thanks, Khomet
Lanier
I think the most important thing for paragons (and any physical prof really) would be for SY to get nerfed. It is too damn powerful, and although it isn't always necessary (i usually don't take it because i have enough other sources of prot in my team), it is just too easily abused. Really, SY just needs an entire functionality change, and more of a tie toward the warrior prof.
I'm reading through your suggestions again Khomet and here's some feedback. I'v probably already stated a lot of this before, but yea... here it is again. Brace Yourself: seems a little too powerful. I would suggest making it end on each individual ally after one KD. Maybe decrease the recharge slightly too. I know you are trying to compare it to ward of stability, but remember that the ward only works on allies within its area, and that area isn't very large. I like the second "cant touch this" suggestion more. Anthem of Guidance still seems very weak on the PvE end. My suggestion would be keeping the functionality as it currently is for PvP, and adding some bonus damage for that hit in PvE. Crippling Anthem also seems very underwhelming for PvE. My suggestion would be to keep its current functionality for PvE and add another couple of conditions (weakness and deep wound seem good) for PvE. Stance removal is very niche, and not particularly elite worthy. I really would like to see Angelic bond's original functionality returned, except at an energy cost and recharge both of 5. It was useful in its own unique way, and allowed for an interesting angelic protection build. Why anet nerfed it in the first place is beyond me. Finally, I really think that AR's energy cost should be 5 (or at most, 10). Like you note on the page, AR is maintainable so its not like this would make it any more powerful than it already is. It would just make it less annoying to use as you wouldn't have to maintain it outside of battle. Anyway, thats my initial 2 cents. I already think that paragon spear damage is fine so i'm not going to bother with those skills.
Khomet Si Netjer
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Originally Posted by Lanier
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Quote:
Brace Yourself: seems a little too powerful. I would suggest making it end on each individual ally after one KD. Maybe decrease the recharge slightly too. I know you are trying to compare it to ward of stability, but remember that the ward only works on allies within its area, and that area isn't very large.
Well the effect is just the same if you think about it... heroes that kite away from melee or AoE damage might leave the ward and get knocked down. In this case Brace Yourself will not prevent the knockdown either because it only works on allies that are not moving. In the case where no one is moving then Ward of Stability and this new version of Brace Yourself are completely equivalent... they both prevent knockdown and can't be removed. In both cases the counter is the same, force targets to move so that they become vulnerable. This same tactic also counters SYG.Quote: Originally Posted by Lanier
I like the second "cant touch this" suggestion more.Anthem of Guidance still seems very weak on the PvE end. My suggestion would be keeping the functionality as it currently is for PvP, and adding some bonus damage for that hit in PvE. This suggestion is basically an Order of Unblockability, that seems quite powerful in the right situations? It isn't the ideal skill for every situation, of course... but nothing is. What if this skill added +crit% to the first hit, scaling like GFTE... that might be a nice bonus.
Quote: Originally Posted by Lanier
Crippling Anthem also seems very underwhelming for PvE. My suggestion would be to keep its current functionality for PvE and add another couple of conditions (weakness and deep wound seem good) for PvE. Stance removal is very niche, and not particularly elite worthy.
Crippling in general is more useful in PvP so this skill isn't the most useful in PvE... but that's okay, each skill has its proper place. I had considered weakness as well, but I thought the stance removal aspect made the skill more unique; no one else can do this. Applying mass deep wound would be overpowered imo.
Anyway, I added +crit chance to Anthem of Guidance as an added bonus to make it a little more attractive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanier
It fits the whole Guardian Angel theme, and a couple players still see the Paragon this way. Even in RA, you'll find some Mo/As use the Paragon as their Return point when escaping from enemies, which is how it should be. It's just a shame they can no longer effectively fill this role.
On a somewhat related skill note; Everybody seen the new Shield Guardian for Monks? It's like Ballad of Restoration, except it recharges quicker in PvP, and blocks a couple attacks in addition to the heal, with much more chance of triggering a larger total heal amount. People are complaining that it's still underpowered though. Hehe, yet does anybody think to complain about how the Paragon's similiar skill suffers? Nope lol. I'd kill to have a skill like the new Shield Guardian on my Paragon (inherantly :P), and it suits the class too...
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I have to disagree with you here, I think the Orders-like buffs are exactly what the paragon needs... the paragon was clearly designed to buff physical attackers, but necromancers are much better at it because Orders apply to every hit. This means that Orders are up to 6 times stronger than paragon anthems since Anthem of Envy and Order of Pain / OotV deliver similar damage. The same problem exists with skills from other professions such as Strength and Honor, Judge's Insight, Brutal Weapon and Splinter Weapon; these last for multiple hits and deliver much more damage than the paragon can achieve with anthems. Thus it is no wonder that people do not consider paragons for physical damage buffing, as they are simply not able to compete... they were designed to buff attacking characters but they are unable to perform well in this role due to skill balance problems. Anyway, I added +crit chance to Anthem of Guidance as an added bonus to make it a little more attractive.
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I like the idea for Help Me. Paragons definitely need some cheap, defensive shout for maintaining skills like soldier's fury (warriors get one), and Help me would be an ideal skill to change for this purpose. My only hesitation is that the health gain seems a little high for a cheap, maintainable skill. I believe the numbers that you currently have for that skill equal about 7 pips of health regen, right? For something that is cheap and constant, 4 pips (or the equivelent) seems more balanced.
I don't really think the numbers are imbalanced at all... they are taken directly from the health gain of Incoming and Fall Back, the difference is that Help Me only affects the user. Some other self healing skills grant 150+ health immediately whereas this might grant 150 health over 10 seconds; those other healing skills have an activation time and possibly some other drawback, Help Me spreads this healing out over time but it has instant activation. Mystic Regeneration, Shadow Refuge, and Restful Breeze are some other skills which grant very high health regeneration for minimal cost.
I don't play PvP but I am enjoying the idea of a Paragon acting as a safe house or damage multiplier.
I agree, I also like this idea. Infact it's probably the reason Paragon is my class of choice; This is exactly what I want, and the Paragon still has some shadow in it left of doing this, albeit ineffectively these days.
I agree with this, the suggestion is too powerful. Having it end after a single-knockdown would be fine.
I understand the comparison with Ward of Stabiltiy, but;
Ward of Stability won't follow allies out of the AoE if the battlefield moves. This, being a shout, would.
Ward of Stability has a casting time. Shouts are instant.
Of course, adjust numbers to compensate, so that you can use it slightly more often than Ward of Stability or something.
As for the Command Elites, I've been using them myself in PvE alot recently (mostly due to lack of anything better to bring with the way I'm specced), and I agree the 4-adrenaline cost elite chants could do with a bit more incentive to use.
Anthem of Guidance is clearly an anti-block skill. Making it end stances too IMO would be logical, as stances are often used for blocking. Many stance removal skills state that they are an unblockable attack. Perhaps up the adrenaline cost slightly.
Then it'd be like Forceful Blow for the whole party, but still balanced as it'd have two disadvantages to Forceful Blow - it wouldn't cause any extra damage, and it wouldn't case Weakness, and one extra advantage - the fact it's an adrenaline chant means it's energy management for the Paragon too. That's always something to keep in mind when it comes to Paragon adrenaline Shouts and Chants, there's always that hidden bonus.
I also agree Crippling Anthem is underwhelming for PvE. I agree with the suggestion of giving it something extra. My idea would basically be to make it an elite version of Anthem of Envy. Up it's adrenaline cost to 6, and give it the same bonus damage alongside the Crippling as Anthem of Envy. Perhaps remove the over 50% HP conditional for the damage if it still felt underwhelming. Many elite skills tend to do three things these days, so this ones would be: Energy Management (indirectly through Leadership), Crippling, Bonus Damage.
As for some of the other, more functional, but still incentiveless or underperforming skills...
Incoming! could do with it's old functionality again TBH, nobody needs an almost identical elite Fallback!, though I understand why it was changed. I could see it working as a skill similiar to Aegis (PvP) though, as some sort of short Omega prot, which would be alot closer to it's original functionality and actually make it useful again. You could avoid the chaining-issue by making it only affect a single-target (it would still have it's uses then), though it'd have to be a little stronger than Aegis (PvP) to compensate for it's elite status. Perhaps change it's cost to Adrenaline instead of energy, with a cooldown to prevent spamming with Adrenaline boosts.
I would also like to see Angelic bond's original functionality returned, as it was unique before and now it's just a poor man's Divine Intervention, without the ability to cast it in the very last second to actually get the effect to trigger. Though I do also like some of Khomet's suggestions for this skill.
Also agreed on some changes need to be made to Aggressive Refrain; It's actually one of the weakest IaS in the game IMO, not just because of the cost, but the -20AL really hurts when you can't end it whenever you please like a Warrior can with Frenzy, especially for a class with almost no self-defense skills. It pretty much makes Paragons easier to kill than any other class in the game - even casters, who tend to have strong defensive skills that don't get in the way of having an effective skill bar - but is a compulsory skill for Paragon damage and adrenaline levels to reach a reasonable and working standard so you have to bring it if you are locked into something other than /Wa.
I have quite alot of ideas for many Paragon skills though to bring them up to workable and respectable standards, without so many drastic changes as some of Khomet's suggestions, and hopefully without making them too powerful. I'll have to bring them all up at some point.
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Originally Posted by iToasterHD
I understand the comparison with Ward of Stabiltiy, but;
Ward of Stability won't follow allies out of the AoE if the battlefield moves. This, being a shout, would.
Ward of Stability has a casting time. Shouts are instant.
Of course, adjust numbers to compensate, so that you can use it slightly more often than Ward of Stability or something.
As for the Command Elites, I've been using them myself in PvE alot recently (mostly due to lack of anything better to bring with the way I'm specced), and I agree the 4-adrenaline cost elite chants could do with a bit more incentive to use.
Anthem of Guidance is clearly an anti-block skill. Making it end stances too IMO would be logical, as stances are often used for blocking. Many stance removal skills state that they are an unblockable attack. Perhaps up the adrenaline cost slightly.
Then it'd be like Forceful Blow for the whole party, but still balanced as it'd have two disadvantages to Forceful Blow - it wouldn't cause any extra damage, and it wouldn't case Weakness, and one extra advantage - the fact it's an adrenaline chant means it's energy management for the Paragon too. That's always something to keep in mind when it comes to Paragon adrenaline Shouts and Chants, there's always that hidden bonus.
I also agree Crippling Anthem is underwhelming for PvE. I agree with the suggestion of giving it something extra. My idea would basically be to make it an elite version of Anthem of Envy. Up it's adrenaline cost to 6, and give it the same bonus damage alongside the Crippling as Anthem of Envy. Perhaps remove the over 50% HP conditional for the damage if it still felt underwhelming. Many elite skills tend to do three things these days, so this ones would be: Energy Management (indirectly through Leadership), Crippling, Bonus Damage.
As for some of the other, more functional, but still incentiveless or underperforming skills...
Incoming! could do with it's old functionality again TBH, nobody needs an almost identical elite Fallback!, though I understand why it was changed. I could see it working as a skill similiar to Aegis (PvP) though, as some sort of short Omega prot, which would be alot closer to it's original functionality and actually make it useful again. You could avoid the chaining-issue by making it only affect a single-target (it would still have it's uses then), though it'd have to be a little stronger than Aegis (PvP) to compensate for it's elite status. Perhaps change it's cost to Adrenaline instead of energy, with a cooldown to prevent spamming with Adrenaline boosts.
I would also like to see Angelic bond's original functionality returned, as it was unique before and now it's just a poor man's Divine Intervention, without the ability to cast it in the very last second to actually get the effect to trigger. Though I do also like some of Khomet's suggestions for this skill.
Also agreed on some changes need to be made to Aggressive Refrain; It's actually one of the weakest IaS in the game IMO, not just because of the cost, but the -20AL really hurts when you can't end it whenever you please like a Warrior can with Frenzy, especially for a class with almost no self-defense skills. It pretty much makes Paragons easier to kill than any other class in the game - even casters, who tend to have strong defensive skills that don't get in the way of having an effective skill bar - but is a compulsory skill for Paragon damage and adrenaline levels to reach a reasonable and working standard so you have to bring it if you are locked into something other than /Wa.
I have quite alot of ideas for many Paragon skills though to bring them up to workable and respectable standards, without so many drastic changes as some of Khomet's suggestions, and hopefully without making them too powerful. I'll have to bring them all up at some point.
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It fits the whole Guardian Angel theme, and a couple players still see the Paragon this way. Even in RA, you'll find some Mo/As use the Paragon as their Return point when escaping from enemies, which is how it should be. It's just a shame they can no longer effectively fill this role.
On a somewhat related skill note; Everybody seen the new Shield Guardian for Monks? It's like Ballad of Restoration, except it recharges quicker in PvP, and blocks a couple attacks in addition to the heal, with much more chance of triggering a larger total heal amount. People are complaining that it's still underpowered though. Hehe, yet does anybody think to complain about how the Paragon's similiar skill suffers? Nope lol. I'd kill to have a skill like the new Shield Guardian on my Paragon (inherantly :P), and it suits the class too...
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Originally Posted by [email protected]!k3
You'd think that the live team would at least do small changes at a time; like the other professions, but when was the last update for any Para skill? I can't even recall.
I believe it was when they changed Mending Refrain (PvP) to cast on-self only and not be usable on other allies, which yes, was a long while ago. A foolish change that I've already covered in some thread somewhere I'm sure; It's kinda exactly what is needed with the Dervish pressure meta right now too. But changing it killed the last effective role a Paragon had in PvP.
I believe in the article they wrote explaining the changes in that build, they even said it was there intention to effectively remove the skill (and therefore, Paragons in general) from PvP though. Figures. Lets hope the lack of Paragon updates since forever is because they are currently planning and working on the big class overhaul for them instead. Let's hope.
Khomet Si Netjer
Hey guys, tyvm for the input, I have modified the suggestions page accordingly.
I will echo the hope that ArenaNet is working on a rebalance for paragons, we have been waiting a very long time. ----- (updated 2011-07-26) Modifications to Awe, Burning Shield, Enduring Harmony, Make Your Time, Natural Temper increased duration and recharge on some Anthems added PvP version suggestion for Brace Yourself added additional suggestion for Incoming added note about paragon AI iToasterHD
Khomet how do you suggest they tackle the problem with multiple Paragons? Or the fact that something like "Go for their eyes!" offers unlimited energy given its reliance on adrenaline and the current state of leadership?
Khomet Si Netjer
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Originally Posted by iToasterHD
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re: multiple paragons, I think the problem you are referring to is the way that paragons buff each other. This is certainly true, but paragons buff *everyone*, not just other paragons. I hardly ever see other paragons in PvE or PvP, which would seem to indicate that the impression of "overpowered" multi-paragon groups does not reflect reality... after all, if multiple paragons were that powerful wouldn't people be using them? Instead, people are using things that truly ARE overpowered such as multiple ritualists, necromancers, or mesmers, or dervishes.