7H general HM build for the advanced warrior
thetwistedboy
This is funny because I made this as theorycraft a while ago but trashed it because I thought there was too little healing... I never thought of putting of heals on the mesmers though... HMMMM. I guess I'll just go back to using this because I'm retarded...
Daesu
This is quite an original build. If it is someone else besides EFGJack who posted this, I would expect this build to be SHOT DOWN. Comon, admit it.
It doesn't have the usual elements we would expect from a warrior HM general PvE build:
1. No SY from a warrior player
2. No SoH for a melee?
3. Spiritual Pain on the mesmers instead of CoF. Wasn't it Jeydra who said Spiritual Pain is too weak on another thread?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
It doesn't have the usual elements we would expect from a warrior HM general PvE build:
1. No SY from a warrior player
2. No SoH for a melee?
3. Spiritual Pain on the mesmers instead of CoF. Wasn't it Jeydra who said Spiritual Pain is too weak on another thread?
Quote:
5. A Ravenous Gaze blood necro with Barbed Signet instead of Orders? Really, Bleeding?
6. No MM and no other offensive spirits besides Bloodsong
7. 15e, 2s cast FoC on curses?
8. Signet of Rejuvenation with only 6 to healing prayers?
Well, at least he has a MoP with his 100blades. Comparing this against the current general PvE meta for warriors, I would chance to say that it has far fewer prots and is therefore, less forgiving.
I am not even going to say that it doesn't work (I remain neutral to this) since I have not tried it yet. But I can certainly understand the skepticism.
On the flagging issue, to be fair, there was a hint that we don't even need to flag to get good results:
Quote: Originally Posted by EFGJack
How to play
You don't need any micro other than flagging heroes behind while aggroing foes to have 'em somewhat close to eachother. Although my test subjects reported good results even without flagging heroes. I suggest pre-casting spirits on the ST for greater survivability. But I will make sure to flag my heroes before trying this build.
You don't need any micro other than flagging heroes behind while aggroing foes to have 'em somewhat close to eachother. Although my test subjects reported good results even without flagging heroes. I suggest pre-casting spirits on the ST for greater survivability. But I will make sure to flag my heroes before trying this build.
). Don't know if trowing in the most commonly used hero skills (read above) would improve the effectiveness.
EFGJack
Okay I falsely marketed this build to the general public. Something made me think that after 56 months most people would have hero flags bound somewhere. I'm changing the title so it does not misdirect discord users into this thread. About flagging - the only flagging you really need to do is flag your heroes half an aggro circle away before running into a group. it doesn't slow you down instead it speeds it up now that everything is in a ball.
@Daesu:
1. SY is good, but only when you need it.
2. SOH is often too good to pass on, but you can't fit it in.
3. It's an energy issue. 5e > 10e, + CoF is conditional and can miss more than half the time.
4. The build (when played properly) kills fast and leaves the spirits out of range most of the time
5. You can replace BSig with X spell from blood line. I know. :>
6. BDSM that way --->
8. it's sufficient
@Daesu:
1. SY is good, but only when you need it.
2. SOH is often too good to pass on, but you can't fit it in.
3. It's an energy issue. 5e > 10e, + CoF is conditional and can miss more than half the time.
4. The build (when played properly) kills fast and leaves the spirits out of range most of the time
5. You can replace BSig with X spell from blood line. I know. :>
6. BDSM that way --->
8. it's sufficient
marnick
I made a 7hero build that absolutely steamrolls every non-elite HM area by doing nothing more than c-space. Required player profession: any/any. Required skills: empty bar, just afk while your heroes kill stuff. Speed: High! I can vanquish every area in the game at record speed with my build.
So why on earth would I use this bar? Anyone with half a brain can see that your build is simply subpar. Not because it\'s not speedy or anything, but because it requires excessive micro that is beyond what most people are willing to put into it.
I have bound my flags to a razer naga mouse, which means I can flag VERY quickly. However quick is still slower than no flagging at all. I only flag on aoe bosses, and even then I usually ball up to exploit pain inverter so it\'s a non-issue 9 times in 10.
And the problem isn\'t even your build, as good or bad as it may be. EFGJack, you\'re just too arrogant to accept any criticism. I\'m equally skilled in pve as you are if not more, so why is your opinion more valid than mine? Maybe because you have 4000 posts? OMG I\'m so impressed.
So why on earth would I use this bar? Anyone with half a brain can see that your build is simply subpar. Not because it\'s not speedy or anything, but because it requires excessive micro that is beyond what most people are willing to put into it.
I have bound my flags to a razer naga mouse, which means I can flag VERY quickly. However quick is still slower than no flagging at all. I only flag on aoe bosses, and even then I usually ball up to exploit pain inverter so it\'s a non-issue 9 times in 10.
And the problem isn\'t even your build, as good or bad as it may be. EFGJack, you\'re just too arrogant to accept any criticism. I\'m equally skilled in pve as you are if not more, so why is your opinion more valid than mine? Maybe because you have 4000 posts? OMG I\'m so impressed.
AndrewSX
Stop flaming and try to realise one thing: he shared a build that, in the hand of the rigth player(and in his ones), can do pretty much anything. I prefer THIS kind of build, where player ability can increase effectiveness, not the brainless ones "Discord+Spirit+Mes+Ap caller - C+Space all the time". If you're fine and happy with it, no problem. But don't flame who can/want to use their own (better? up to you....) builds only b/c "Tried, this sucks, i have to think/micro!".
In other words, everyone uses the builds he prefer. If you're not comfortable with the team of someone else, and fail, don't use it/adapt it to you, but don't attack who created it(expecialy when he proved his skills more than once in a 7H enviroment).
For example, if i have to use this build, i'd prefer 2 backline of dedicated healer+protter, esurge for FoC (+panic = 3 mes, affordable w/o mercs thanks to razah), SY, another meele (dervs are so OP that heroes aren't that bad), and this just cause i think fit better my playstile......use your own brain!
And @hunter: it isn't cause this build comes from EFGJack, no one is "in his shadow", and i'm not writing this only cause it's your critcism, but your kind of argument (can't use it) comes out everytime someone share his build rating it "Great".
EVERY.
STUPID.
TIME.
P.S: ^/agree with Jeydra.
In other words, everyone uses the builds he prefer. If you're not comfortable with the team of someone else, and fail, don't use it/adapt it to you, but don't attack who created it(expecialy when he proved his skills more than once in a 7H enviroment).
For example, if i have to use this build, i'd prefer 2 backline of dedicated healer+protter, esurge for FoC (+panic = 3 mes, affordable w/o mercs thanks to razah), SY, another meele (dervs are so OP that heroes aren't that bad), and this just cause i think fit better my playstile......use your own brain!
And @hunter: it isn't cause this build comes from EFGJack, no one is "in his shadow", and i'm not writing this only cause it's your critcism, but your kind of argument (can't use it) comes out everytime someone share his build rating it "Great".
EVERY.
STUPID.
TIME.
P.S: ^/agree with Jeydra.
Essence Snow
There are a few things I would change about the build....mainly spec 10 in dom for unatural alone, but otherwise it looks good.
^^home ticket up here is obvious troll...I wouldn't bother wasting anymore time on him
^^home ticket up here is obvious troll...I wouldn't bother wasting anymore time on him
EFGJack
@Essence - Reasoning for Domi spec just for unnatural sig was to get as much damage in as possible without losing much on energy as the bars are pretty tight as they are. Unnatural sig's condition is better than Sig of Clumsiness, otherwise I'd have that. Although I experimented with SoClumsiness & Calculated Risk / Wandering Eye, but with CR normal foes just die too fast before the hex gets to shine, Wandering Eye is the better option of the two (when going for max. on demand aoe), but having a 2s cast spell on a relatively short cooldown in the ST's bar is not exactly ideal as he was often casting WE while people were under pressure. that often lead to several deaths so I went with the domi signet.
And yeah. I can spot an average frustrated troll. thanks for noting. ;>
And yeah. I can spot an average frustrated troll. thanks for noting. ;>
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewSX
Be honest guys, if any lesser known player had posted this, this build would have been shot down within the first page.
Quote: This is just the ultimate proof that good players which creates their own builds can steamroll PvE even better than the "OMG use meta builds n00b!" ppl. If the community can accept this build to be possibly viable, I can only hope to see fewer "OMG this build sucks!" replies for other original builds that are from the common masses, especially when they have not even tried the builds out.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
As for Spiritual Pain, I did make that post, but now I'm a bit uncertain. It is quite strong for a single-target spell. Compare Lightning Strike for example. There's simply no reason to use Lightning Strike @ 16 Air vs. Spiritual Pain @ 11 Dom. Lightning Orb is still better, but it's also 15e, 2s cast. Also considering the masses of AoE damage in the build already, it could certainly use a few skills that target solitary foes.
Lol... I like Spiritual Pain so I would have argued with you then if I have replied to that thread.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...26&postcount=6 @EFGJack: I didn't like ST defensive rits when I tried them out the last time because Shelter doesn't last long at all in HM. I usually go with Protective Spirit for targeted protection and micro that instead.
AndrewSX
@Essence: srry, my "troll detector" was down, no more
Expecially if the OPoster itself think we can ignore him. Quote:
If the community can accept this build to be possibly viable, I can only hope to see fewer "OMG this build sucks!" replies for other original builds that are from the common masses, especially when they have not even tried the builds out.
As you can see, there's always someone. And i don't think that the build itself would have been shut down in first page-at least 3-4, come on..... | Ah, and i prefer ER over ST too....but do not start a discussionon this plz. On the "most damage with less energy pressure" issue, cause you have 3 Necs (and one of them is carrying blood stuff), couldn't be useful Blood Ritual(i know, i prefer to stay safe....)? I take it almost everytime i have more than 4 casters in the team. Keep it disabled when fights are short and there's time for recover if you prefer, but heroes seems to cast it only when ene drops under 50-40%, and 17ish % hp isn't a so huge sacrifice to handle anyway. P.S: last thing to huntroll: attack directly and w/o any reason anyone disagree with you is the best way to lose your credibility. Expecially when you say nonsense things. * hint* 
FoxBat
One big thing I will say for ST here, it provides unshatterable protection from outside of aggro range. Meaning your flagged heroes can be popping spirits while you are gathering aggro, and enemy mobs can't remove them. That gives you enough survivability to do a bit of balling without any heal support.
Voodoo Rage
A common theme I see on almost all of these team builds is the dual mesmers which I think makes build craft extremely forgiving. The ST Rit is also enormously effective if you aren't running minions. Speaking of minions, I'm wondering since we aren't running them, is there really that much reason to bring along the Fall Back chain on the necros? It seems you might be able to drop that and squeeze in some smite and orders support.
EFGJack
@Forge - This is for advanced players. Every player with experience knows to check compass for patrols and with experience comes the knowledge of popups and possible deathtrap patrols, too.
@Voodoo Rage - Running around takes up more time than fighting, so in practice FB gets you through PvE faster than any damaging skill ever will. I understand seeing big numbers is a great deal of fun, but I also like to get done with whatever PvE I'm doing so I chose FB over melee support. But feel free to modify it to suit your personal preferences. Haggis of Doom
I can see this whole debate from both sides. It's merely a "glass canon, yay or nay" issue.
It's like asking: should you wear heavy armor into a medieval battlefield? Common sense says yes, but if you're insanely skilled you may argue otherwise. Just don't expect everyone to follow your example. They may gawk and say "wow you're good", but don't get all angry and superior when they say "no thanks, I won't fight like you do. It's kinda weird that you suggested that I do in the first place". Personally I think glass canon builds are far from optimal in general PvE. The damage is exceptional, but overkill. You might or might not shave off a couple minutes off the VQ, but the extra risk and effort are not worth it. In the very competitive GW build market, if your return on investment is bad, your product will not be popular. Of course, I have little reason to doubt that in the right hands, it's an excellent build for the hardest parts of GW For an even further opinion of things, read Cthon's About Backlines. hunter
Here is something for your entertainment. Should prove a point or 2 about build efficiency and how tank and spank can be done with any halfassed build with 0 synergy
DoA HM double pull  
EFGJack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom
It's like asking: should you wear heavy armor into a medieval battlefield? Common sense says yes, but if you're insanely skilled you may argue otherwise. Just don't expect everyone to follow your example. They may gawk and say "wow you're good", but don't get all angry and superior when they say "no thanks, I won't fight like you do. It's kinda weird that you suggested that I do in the first place". Personally I think glass canon builds are far from optimal in general PvE. The damage is exceptional, but overkill. You might or might not shave off a couple minutes off the VQ, but the extra risk and effort are not worth it. In the very competitive GW build market, if your return on investment is bad, your product will not be popular. Of course, I have little reason to doubt that in the right hands, it's an excellent build for the hardest parts of GW For an even further opinion of things, read Cthon's About Backlines. I understand people often search for the easiest way out. I like it easy too, but after clearing UW HM I decided to explore the high reward / high risk setups a bit further as I was sick tired of running max defense to get through UW and I quickly learned you can get away with minimal heals as long as your damage is top notch. The point of this setup is that you can kill the enemy groups before the redbars cry for protection and nourishment. And to be honest, this approach is satisfying after playing the same old setups time and time again. Cheers for linking that thread, but I'm confident I know how different backlines affect the groups' performance and surviving capabilities without reading it.
XxForgexX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom
I can see this whole debate from both sides. It's merely a "glass canon, yay or nay" issue.
wait, what? a glass cannon sacrifices defense in favor of overwhelming damage. this build may have terrible defense, but its damage potential is average at best. even less so if you don't get a perfect aggro ball
AndrewSX
The equation "Damage > Defence : kill stuff faster they can kill you!" works only till a certain point. When your attacks chains/spells fall in Cooldown w/o take out at least most of enemies (this happens rarely, but w/e), you won't last long w/o strong prots/heals. Maybe is just my idea of play, but "Don't get killed > kill stuff at SC's-lke speed":its safer and more stable.
Obviously this till you balance correctly the amount of those defence vs. overall damage.....
Klocknov
You know ego warms generally never end good...
But to start off I am going to point out that this build may be glassy, but it really isn't a cannon. I run glass cannon builds all the time. My general res count between my 7h and me is two one being myself with rebirth. As well I don't stick with your average day builds, as well I build stuff that works in six and eight mans. Now taking all that in, this build is shit, I run a Monk as a warrior half the time and you know what I couldn't even stand to touch this build since it depends way to much on flagging and microing. Yeah I may not be running your oh so loved warrior or derv, but still if this is a general PvE build should any class be able to pick it up and use it with the warrior skills? The area I worked out in was my loved area of Riven Earth for testing builds. I wiped twice on the Raptors in there. That is even with knowing the pathing. So you want to tell me this is general PvE yet it runs problems with Raptors? Though with how you are with ego I expect to be blamed for running this build on a Monk instead of a Warrior or Dervish, well if your lackeys don't beat you to it. Now as of the moment I am running CoS rits instead of the oh so annoying SoS and Soul Twister. As well as I run two mesmers one yes with panic my other though I went a different route other then ene surge. I went with an Illusion msemser instead. I found the Dom and illusion complemented eachother quite well. Then I have three rainbow necros so to say. So you want to say yours is a glass cannon, I want to know where the cannon is for even with good pulling one left over raptor can kill three heroes and myself easily. Yet my build clears the area in about 40 minutes most of the time running. So I may take your idea of running with "Fall Back" but past that I think this is far from being a standard PvE build, not to mention one I would choose to run over anything else. EDIT: I did get directed to this to try it out for my opinion, and only reason I say ego wars is because that is mostly what I see over the past few pages. Now I understand your good and have been around and did many high-end stuff. But that doesn't make it to where your word is final. Now I won't continue past this if all I get is egotistical fights back. But if you generally want to work out ways to make this build more general PvE I may be able to help.
EFGJack
I'm not going to change the build as it's something I've been running for a few weeks now with great success rate in general areas. Obviously if there's an area that the build can't tackle I simply won't run it there. I wish people will see this as something you can run in zones X and Y even if it can't make it in zone Z.
And please refrain from posting that the build is shit simply due to the fact that it indeed requires a certain play style. I acknowledge people aren't friendly towards builds that require flagging and micro, but that's where the fun is for me, and I've had a great deal of fun the last weeks running this build, knowing you'll explode if you play bad, but proper play rewards swift kills that "normal" builds can only dream of. Final word is, to me it is but a standard pve build, and by general game-play I refer to stuff I do when I feel like it: EOTN dungeons, and select ZBounties. And I'm crafty with builds and strategies revolving around using them, thanks for the offer but I'll have to pass. I'm content this build has what it takes in the right hands. Silverdawn
I have no doubt EFGJack is an excellent player who has a record of producing good builds. However, we are talking about a specific build here, not his reputation. A build based around echo mending would still be a bad build, regardless of who made it. Likewise, good builds can come from unknown players. The discussion of the build's merits should be just that, and should not include the renown of the player.
It seems to me that builds that can handle things going wrong, react to any situation with much less flagging and can run anything in the #1 character slot are better/stronger builds than one that requires a skilled player playing a certain profession/build to function, but only in certain areas against certain foes (provided nothing goes wrong). Of course, some players might be bored with c-spacing through the game with a single 7h build that's good in all circumstances and might prefer to live on the edge with a weaker build. That's fine, such a build should not be toted as a strong, general PvE build. @Majoho: XxForgexX is actually saying something consistent there. In your #2 quote, he's saying that if a build can't destroy everything in it's path, it sucks. In the #1 quote, he's challenging the OP, asking if it meets the criteria for a good build and then answering that it doesn't. @timbo 3101: There was only 1 death in hunter's team. This matched EFGJack's video, whose team also suffered a single death. Jeydra
Simple solution to "this build sucks" argument ... have all parties involved clear an area with their favoured builds and post the /age. If anyone is convinced this build sucks, he / she should be able to do better: if this build doesn't have enough offense, it should kill slower; if this build doesn't have enough defense / cannot handle popups etc, it should wipe more. In both cases the result will be an increase in time taken. What this test will not show is if bad players fail with the build but not good players, when I firmly believe it's the fault of the bad player(s) (who should get better), not the fault of the build.
So to all people who think this build is bad, why not list a concrete area to test the build against?
Wenspire
Perfect timing; Duncan is tomorrows ZB. =)
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu
This is quite an original build. If it is someone else besides EFGJack who posted this, I would expect this build to be SHOT DOWN. Comon, admit it.
True enough. This thing is such a glass cannon that I'm sure it would have received even more criticism had it not come from Jack. Now, I personally do not favor this sort of build (mostly because I lack the long-term concentration/patience to do every single pull right), but if it works, then it works. On what grounds then could I legitimately criticize?
The only criticism I'm hearing that rings true is that it's not robust. (Which Jack freely admits.) The deeper question is whether robustness is a necessary component of the mythical "optimal build" (as opposed to speed alone). We had this discussion (or rather its flip side) back in the BDSM thread, and it just went in circles. I don't expect to get any further this time around. Nonsense removed
EFGJack
Right. I recorded the City video only because we were discussing it with Jeydra, then I decided to post a link to the video clip here just to demonstrate you can get far with Signets of Rejuvenation (And a Soul Twisting ritualist, but lets not go in to details...). And do note Hunter displays LB title which I did not, but I'm well aware one can double pull in DOA and get away with it with a variety of builds as it's not as hard as people believe it is.
And about Riven Earth SCs - I rather not get involved as vanquishing has never been on the top of my list of interests.
HigherMinion
EFGJack
Duncan is a good area, but this build is not for Slavers as noted in the original post. :> I know without going that this build can't take on Slaver's, mainly due to Duncan's Defenses.
Calista Blackblood
Good idea time: Direct your criticism's at the build,not the poster. There are too many variables when you go down the route of deciding how bad people are,it just ends up embarrassing.
Anymore off topic drivel,trolling or comments directly at other posters will result in infractions and thread closure. Take this as your warning..
AndrewSX
Testing builds...i remember the thread where ppl tried to test personal builds vs. the famous D+S+M. Ended up to pointless speed race in Raisu palace HM....do as you prefer, but speed in HM High pve areas shouldn't be top parameter for rate a build imo.
P.S: Thanks god a mod comes here to warn. This thread was derailing a bit too much. FoxBat
Funnily enough, this build's potential is wasted in Raisu, as you have 4 NPCs chained to you when you're ahead of the party trying to ball stuff. The times as a result didn't turn out so well, even when grabbing large groups, you really need foes in adjacent range to cause explosion. This is something to consider when running missions as a lot of them (particularly factions) saddle you with dumb NPCs stealing your aggro.
Whirl E Vic
Clearly the most appropriate test would be to see if the build can kill in:
Talus Chute Verdant Cascades and possibly The Falls
Xenomortis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirl E Vic
Talus Chute Verdant Cascades and possibly The Falls I don't think it's going to have a problem.
Wenspire
If not on Duncan himself, maybe do testing on the pre-bosses if you have not completed those yet. duncan himself is more of a special situation that, usually, will require most team builds to utilize at least Swap and in some cases the Sig of Sorrow trick. Getting to him is a good test though.
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