@Hunter - Response in words you understand better than a proper reply:

>implying cooldowns won't run while you move from group 1 to group 2
>implying the monsters survive the initial brunt
>implying setting up pulls takes time
>implying advanced players gets spawns on top of his backline
>implying absence of Splinter Weapon

Please.

Edit: Yes. FOC is there for the fall back chain. There's not many options available if one wishes for Fall Back & Mark of Pain + random added AOE.

You are too full of yourself to be able to accept proper criticism, hence why there is no point in continuing this even further.

From the feedback from other people, all i see is "looks good, because its EFGs build" and "I tried it briefly, it works but im going back to my build which is safer"

So yeah. Keep it up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timbo_3101

@LexTalionis
No one has ever mentioned a single individual running multiple builds and using this as a means of comparing teams/tactics; in any case, this would be subject to interindividual variation. Perhaps you are unaware, but it has been suggested multiple times that a single individual run his or her preferred build and post times for quest completion, to be used for comparison against other individuals running alternate builds.
Regarding your peronsal criticisms and statements regarding spiritway - perhaps you yourself would like to compare to Jeydra's publicised results

"Most people here didn't bother flagging since the 3H Discord/Sabway era because they simply didn't need to."
@Hunter
Most people, perhaps yourself included, reject micromanagement whether out of inconvenience or lack of ability. Is it possible that this could have contributed to why most people, even going back to the H/H era, were unable to H/H through every area/dungeon in HM (except DoA and UW) without consumables? Are these the same players and the same results you strive for?

@EFGJack
Have briefly trialed your build in general HM using an assassin. Impressive efficiency, but am more comfortable with pre-prots and AP spiking. Perhaps appropriately re-runing my heroes might allow me to test it somewhere more exciting

In any case, my previous comment was a rhetoric question. Most people know why no one will and no one can legitimately challenge Jeydra or EFGJack. Aren't you saying "your build works but its impractical or general PVE"?
Yet you are telling me and everyone else that they suck because they can't micromanage stuff.

Problem? hypocrisy or fanboi?

PS: people flag heroes out of necessity, not because they like to. Why spend extra effort when you can get the same thing done for less

Gabs88

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2011

08 May 2011 at 14:50 - 124

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter View Post

PS: people flag heroes out of necessity, not because they like to. Why spend extra effort when you can get the same thing done for less Cause flagging helps you do the same thing significantly faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8NgsqRolAk I keep linking this one to people that can't understand the general concept of flagging to speed up PVE.

hunter

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

08 May 2011 at 15:03 - 125

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88 View Post

Cause flagging helps you do the same thing significantly faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8NgsqRolAk I keep linking this one to people that can't understand the general concept of flagging to speed up PVE. It proves nothing, if my build allows me to get shit done by just running in while his requires stuff to stay balled up for max efficiency there is something wrong with the latter build

You can theorycraft me all you want. The time it takes you set up that pull , i would have already wiped half the group

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

08 May 2011 at 15:13 - 126

By the time it takes for you to wipe half the group, I've already wiped all the group and moved on to the next one! See, I can make unsubstantiated claims, too.

Until you start offering real proof, I'm not going to bother responding.

Excellent video, btw.

Gabs88

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2011

08 May 2011 at 15:17 - 127

That strictly speaking depends on the group. The build I play myself is this one: http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/8397/slavers.png

And as you see I can either pull the group back, bodyblock and ball them up that way or jump straight in with Death's charge and keep them balled up like that instead. Sometimes it's also faster to just charge straight in as the group consist of hard to ball up foes.

Mastering both techniques is the basis of highly effective PVE. If you charge straight in to every darn group, I can guarantee you that you would very often have been better off making a different choice.

Relyk

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2008

09 May 2011 at 02:26 - 128

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

I was comparing your last build to your current one, was under the impression that the RoJ heroway on GWPVX was your creation. Whether it was you that posted it or not. I posted roj heroway as you can tell from history. It is inspired from EFGJack using roj to spike groups. However it's based off using RoJ in general pve, the spiking aspect pertains mostly to high-end pve. That makes in convenient in that the build is useful and effective for both novice and experienced players.

Cantos

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2007

Legion Of Losers

10 May 2011 at 11:31 - 129

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack View Post

This build is for general Hard Mode play: Vanquishing, Missions, ZBounties, Dungeons & FOW. I tried this build while vanquishing Dejarin Estate; here's what happened.

I didn't want to commit lots of gear and runes to this crazy build, so I basically just added skillbars to my heroes and left their gear alone. Some of them didn't even have weapons. Some of the gear choices you have their seem a bit ill advised as well. Superiors and 40/40 sets for all? I'd just go defensive staffs of defense. Also, a minor swordsmanship and a zealous weapon is really unbrave, and not the way I like to play warrior.

So after half heartedly setting up my heroes, I headed out and started dying a lot. I got to 60DP pretty quickly by not balling well, then my heroes started chain dying from Death Pacts, and I remembered why I dont bring Death Pact. When I got the ball right, things died really fast, I think faster than my normal build (4x Esurge), but it's difficult to say on something like that.

After I got the feel of the build, I started dying less, and by the end of the vanquish my DP was nearly gone. I think adjusting to someone else's playstyle is definitely going to cause problems like what I experienced, but I was able to get the hang of it after a while.

Observations:
It was fun to play like this. My normal play style is different.

My normal build is two spirit spammers, a MM, and 4 Esurge, so in comparison, I think this build is less forgiving of your mistakes, and does a bit more damage in AoE faster.

This is a very odd build with weird skill choices, but it does work ok. I am going to rune up my heroes and see how good it is in something that isn't a really easy vanquish.

jack11728

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2009

England

Mo/

13 May 2011 at 05:14 - 130

Wondering how this works without a dedicated healer once for all... Interesting

Morte66

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2008

LF slightly hardcore UK/euro guild

28 May 2011 at 21:14 - 131

Thanks for posting this build, which I've used for ten vanquishes. I'm not well-versed in the "ball and nuke" approach, so it was quite educational. ISTM that the build is as good as your aggro control and balling, which is to be expected I suppose.

If I get all aggro on the warrior he survives until the enemies die. If they're balled on the warrior, i.e. not spread out and hitting him from range, they die impressively fast.

If aggro spreads, which tends to happen with popups and zigzagging monsters like minotaurs/hekets, I'm in danger of a wipe. A mandragor popup just as you're moving in on a group of hekets is pretty hairy. At times like that I really miss my 10 minions and 9 spirits bodyblocking...

I had an extremely hard time against djinn + roaring ether groups in the garden of Sebhorin, I ended up using a powerstone for the first time in about a year. They're mainly ranged so you want to do some running around to ball them, taking heavy damage while you do it. The roaring ethers put wastrel's on you, and their esurge drains you so you can't use an energy skill to end it, and if you do end it they just reapply it, and if you run back for a heal it may bridge aggro, and aarrgghhhh....

Anyway, thanks again for posting it. It seemed pretty good once I got the hang of it.

Edit afterthought:

For years my warrior has used minions and spirits as my aggro control, with single target dslash builds to kill stuff. It's ironic that I finally got around to "ball and AoE spike" for his last ten vanquishes, which got him the last of the 27 titles I wanted, and he's now ready to retire.

What I really want now is a build/technique to let a hero do the pull/aggro/tank thing so my caster characters can do the nuking.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

29 May 2011 at 16:31 - 132

I have been having some success using a variant of Jack's old build rather than this one:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...4&postcount=14

If you manage to aggro and ball well, using 2 RoJs are usually faster to wipe them out anyway.

EFGJack

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2010

Finland

Pros At Inactivity [bleh]

W/

29 May 2011 at 16:56 - 133

Agree. I've been experimenting with variants of the old build and I've got some really nice results with it. I'll get around posting it when it's polished.

lightzors

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Apr 2011

The Acid Snakes [TAS]

Mo/

06 Jul 2011 at 15:08 - 134

Hey everyone. I don't post much, but when I do I try to provide good and relevant feedback. So here is what I have come up with.

I have been a fan of hero oriented play since the beggining, so naturally I came across a lot of hero setups. Some were good, some bad. When I originally came to this thread, I was sceptical at first, but after I've seen it had been written by EFG I read on carefully. I have tried a lot of "glass cannon" setups, but the results were never really that impressive, so the further I've read the more I was interested by it.

What caught my eye the most was the interresting/unorthodox skill selection and I thought "Hey, why not give this a spin?" So I loaded it on my heroes. Most of them were already geared for the job therefore I didn't really need to rerune that much.

I have ran this setup on my DB/SY! sin, so I could squeeze atleast something from countless physical buffs included. I aggroed the first group (went for Drakkar Lake VQ), balled them up and BOOM. The group had just disappeared.

At this point I was really impressed by the spike capability hence I started pulling bigger packs. No matter what creatures were in, lvl30 Jotuns melted away the same way as a lvl5 Tiger would.

I have read this whole thread and I was shocked that people actually reported bad results with this setup. I have plowed through most of the mentioned areas with ease. What I have figured out is that this setup scales incredibly well with player skill. Once you figure out how to pull and lock the group, while applying a little bit of micro via flags, there is nothing standing in your way.
Also, I guess most people run this with improperly geared heroes. Being such a offensively oriented setup, you need every bit to help you out in tight situations. Having a buch of 415hp heroes won't help much I suppose.

If I conclude, I find this an extremely powerfull setup, which is however mainly revolving around player skill and aggro control. It is surely much more difficult then your general "discorddiscord123crap", but like a million times more rewarding if you get it down. Personally I love this.

PurpleFlamingo

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2010

Hopped Off The Plane At [LAX]

21 Jul 2011 at 15:56 - 135

Are you still running this build (or something very similar: 2 FoC, blood necro, no MM or offensive spirits)? If so, I think I'll test it side by side with the teambuild I'm currently running and see if I like it.

KingCrab

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2009

W/E

25 Jul 2011 at 04:03 - 136

I like that your build is different from many of the 7 hero builds out there. The classes are the same but the elite choices are unique. Good to know it's working.

Laylat

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2006

25 Jul 2011 at 05:21 - 137

I have yet to try this build, but definitely looking forward to. Can you please explain why you carry Union? If you're so concerned about killing so quickly, then you can simply replace it with another damage dealing AoE skill. I mean, what is 15 damage reduction in a build that's meant to blast through foes like a hot knife through butter?

I also have a more general question regarding aggro management. Would you say that this build is superior to a generic WWA+HB+MoP+SW+AR+SoH considering in both situations the mobs were balled up similarly?

Thanks.

RonanH

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jul 2011

The Never Ending Darkness [DARK]

26 Jul 2011 at 14:45 - 138

Okay well ive not had a chance to try this yet as I'm on my iPod but it seems to lack survivability at a glance, chances are I'm wrong but I'm guessing this build can't cope terribly well with an over aggro or unsucessful spike

other than that one concern though it looks great

I'm just a worry about Healers lol xD