a change to underworld

why is this the only place some of us that are not in the "elite sin groups"that can never seam to finish this area off.

fow is easily done specally with the hero up date.

Doa fun and dosnt matter what class you are you can get this done

Deep another easy to do fun place with mates

Urgoz can be tricky but doabel

UW totaally anyoning, 10 quests most are easy but hell takes 3 hrs and probebly find you get wiped by horsemen, or u the frost king.

unless you have done it a billon times and have the stones to provit it you cant even get a look into a speed clear group. and Pugs in uw omg what a load of crap that usually turns out to be.

So why cant uw be changed like doa where us "less then gods" meer mortals can finish it. even if you can get it so that 4 or 5 quest can be saved so that you dont have to continue to redoo the same stuff over again and then get wiped out and start all over.

now let the sarcasm begin. cheers

The UW has been done with 7 heroes with no cons in HM with several builds now. It isn't that tough anymore when you look at the skills available compared to back in the day of prophecies only skills.

The final word is "Elite" zone I think you are not understanding this word in regards to the zone. The SC groups aren't really an issue as they are just trying to find a pub friendly way to complete it.

My issue with UW is time. DoA I can complete the quests one stage at a time..as my schedule permits.

Having to complete all 10 quests in UW at one go is the problem, to me.

I have my statue.. and do not intend to ever go back. Games should be fun, not a dreaded chore.

I just lol`d at this post .
It just shows how you cant please everyone - UW ppl said was easy a few years ago , a few changes to make it a challenge and players are fine but after almost 2 yrs ( has it almost been that long ) since dhuum returned and a few more changes and we get players crying it too hard.
UW is an elite area - its meant to be hard and meant to take time.
Who wants to do an elite area if its sooo easy and can be done in 30 mins with h/h ( ignoring sc`ers ) - wheres the challenge .
Things should take time as its what keeps you in the game and if your so worried about it taking too long - join a sc team and thats all ( i dont believe ive actually said to someone to join a sc team ).
Btw - saying of doa , its within realm of torment and a total diff structure to UW - Uw is core .. and last time i checked doa was nf only - all 3 campaigns share 1 core elite zone and each has its own elite area ( topk,deep,urgoz,doa ).
Last bit now - try seeing if your guild wants to try and do uw , see if your guild wants to learn it etc.

what's fun for others doesn't have to also be fun for you, so give us a break. Maybe testing their capacities in that area is fun for them.




On topic, there are several team builds which require a strong main team only and 1 or 2 tanks to pop the other areas reapers. I've been there and I've done it with both terraway and those teambuilds for it. Just prepared to be inovative, look outside of the box and come up with tactics for the more complex quests.



Profit

Are these build available anywhere? I haven't come close to clearing it with heroes.

I don't care how hard it is, how big a challenge it is, or even if they make it harder. My point was, solely, the time element of doing 10 quests at one sitting.. period. Nothing to do with your epeen. Both Slavers and DoA are capable of being done in stages. "core" does not have to mean "outdated mechanics"

Actually, they all share 2: UW and FoW...

The builds are available in the Heroes & AI section of these forums, but the Underworld is more about knowing what to do and when than it is about builds. These threads may prove to be useful to one seeking to clear UW with heroes

the Underworld Guide for 7H players
Underworld & Dhuum discussion
Underworld general discussion with heroes

And I agree. Playing in the Underworld for 3 hours straight just to get kicked out by Dhuum isn't exactly fun or productive. I would prefer a structure similar to Domain of Anguish. Where the Voice of Grenth would offer you a guest that requires you to do the bidding of each reaper inside the zone, and once the meta quest is completed the Reaper will deem you worthy of facing Dhuum himself. I guess this is just wishful thinking but the UW in it's current state is a dreadful experience for the majority of non-SC players.

I hate tanks, the idea is boring.

Me and my partner have completed UW in nm and HM, but would like to complete it in HM without using a tank on one side of 4H quest, as then you're stuck with a shitty bar for 2 hours.

The rest of UW is fine (including Dhuum, he's just a big teddy bear) for our kind of team, but we both don't want to play gw with a bar of boring tank skills.

We try 4-4, 6-2 split and so far only had success once on that quest when we managed to pull both bosses on one side right out of their mobs and down to the reaper on their own, and kill them before the other side arrived.

We tried attacking on their spawn points, every combo of heroes we can think of or find.

If the mobs attacked from one side, or in stages we'd be fine, but only when we force one side to rush to reaper and delay the other do we seem to get anywhere, and the problem with that tactic is it's pretty random if it works.

I cannot be bothered wasting time getting to 4H, even if done first, and failing due to random events, and I did speed clear until bored of that years ago, none of the other end game areas require a tank for non speed clear teams, so I don't know why the 4H quest has been made like that.

Until someone points out a reliable method to complete that quest in HM without a tank or cons, and with heroes, then I'll leave UW alone. All the good stuff drops from the end chest anyway so the crappy proph-like loot from a failed run doesn't make up for the wasted time.

Shamelessly advertising here but you may want to view this video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asfw5Tm5780

Jeydra, a user here on Guru also came up with his own strategy for 4HM as an elementalist that doesn't involve Muddy Terrain. He explained it in the UW & Dhuum discussion thread posted in the Heroes & AI.

The only thing i can agree in the Op's idea is that yes , there's a too big diference in time between sc teams and usual pug/hero teams....

I did finally achieve UW with heroes in HM ,and now i usually can finish it easily ( although long) but the problems i noticed are that :
- it's way too easy to fail on dhuum with heroes
- for beginning teams , forgeting to kill one mob leading to a reaper dying 30mn later is a bit annoying ( that's minor problem though...)
- Too long time needed to get to the most tricky parts ( a.k.a 4h and dhuum)

However i don't agree at all with the argument " every elite area except UW is easy , so let's make UW easy too " .... It's not especially bad to have an area a bit more difficult....

No shame in advertising something good

I'm at work on a laptop, so it's a bit blurry, can you just confirm what I think I saw please:

You flag heroes round to one of the choke points, and put down crippling traps and bloodsong, (do you use all your spirits there? I cannot tell) then flag heroes back to yourself at reaper. You then put muddy terrain down take quest and complete one side with full team, rushing back as soon as 2nd boss is dead to stop the other side from killing reaper (good timing there, do you always have it cut so close?)

Thanks for your input, I'll try and find Jedyas post now.

it was early and having to think of urgoz threw me lol.
With anything gw zone/mission/quest its always gd to check out wiki and here on guru for any tips and guides - even the outdated uw guide ive used in the past but not as it was originally intended - old guide was for 55/ss but it gave details on what to expect and where and how to do it and when the changes came about only 2 or 3 things changed.
Practising with friends and having some details makes it more fun and you learn more - a person who never did a sc before could know more of uw than a person who only does uwsc on 1 chr and never did anything else.
I prefer trying stuff with guildies as you tend to know each others gamestyle and you know their capabilities - in a pug/sc team you dont have that bonus - knowing someones watching your back sort of thing and you can learn at your pace and not worry about needing 1 million stones just to get in a team

It is that close most of the time. Once I catched up on them in the curve though. As for spirits I only use those that last long (Bloodsong, Pain, Preservation). The others will expire before they get engaged.

Generally I am against your suggestion. Format UW is now interesting and challenging enough for me. Even most experienced SC groups note some fails from time to time. But this is not a point ... every area offering nice rewards tend to be the subject of intensive SC evoultion. Let's put aside SC.

As a casual player you have 2 solutions: do it with pll or with hero (obviously there can be a lot of combinations from 2ppl and 6 hero to 7 pll and 1 hero). I do not recomend you doing this with heros alone. Firstly your success will be highly dependent on luck (spawn of mobs, moment of approach,skills used by heros in right time, etc etc) and secondly even if you are lucky enough to rich dhuum ... probably you fail there. Secondly if you are so lucky to finish it succefully it will take you ages.

Of course it will require from you very good knowledge of UW and tactics to be used with quests.

What I am aiming at is to suggest you considering a so called balanced way (with other pll) to do UW. Of course if you are not a member of reasonable guild or do not have enough ''game active'' friends this can be difficult but let's give it a try.

I with my guildies do from time to time a balanced way. We are doing it in HM with cons and standard time we face is 1h20 min -1h30min. In Nm it takes around 1h if you would like to consider this option too. We are using 4 mele (including one SF tank), SoS, Def or order optionally, UA and EMO. Unfortunatelly this requires some skills. Tank plus EMO are must. The rest can be modified but I give example of what I have tested sucessfully tens of times.

my intention is simply to give you additional options to be taken into consideration as I have said I am against any changes to UW now.

my 2 cents

The only problem I had to make it was time. You practically have to change your schedule to make it.

I wish there was 'checkpoints', quests that stay completed, until you get to the final one, and then be able to have a go to the final one.
But also closing their areas, and respawning only skeletons of dhuum in place of the usual enemies in areas that must stay open to reach other quests, but are related to completed quests, to greatly limit abuse of this for farming.

in all honesty uw doesnt take 3 hours my guild does it in under a conset or at a max of 45 mins its just knowing how to do uw with the changes. all you do at 4h have some1 with a monk who can dodge met shower and its easy then the other 6 do 1 side and come once the 1 side is dead.

Err, using your guild I assume means using other human players, this was about doing it with heroes, no cons etc.

Speedclears are old news.

if it takes 3 hours with heros your just slow i 2 manned all of uw in under 2 hours

UW is definatly doable for a casual player with the right hero setup, even in HM.

What always bothered me most, as it does with other players, is that certain professions have no place in non-hero/friend groups. It's not because people are unwilling to take you, it's because the way Underworld works, they simply can't take you cuz they'll get stomped.

A warrior, for example, has no place in a pug UW group because warriors are shit a PvE groups that aren't fully build around them.

The root of this issue (offcourse, what else) is Shadowform, or any other form of imbalanced tanking. This problem has 2 negative impacts on the game for other professions, a direct one and an indirect one.

The direct one obviously being that a Shadowform sin not only can tank an infinite (Virtually) amount of enemies, it can also kill them in "the blink of an eye" (Read: just as as fast as a balanced group would having to killing them one by one).

The indirect one that Anet kept buffing and buffing PvE to counter Shadowform sins. UW was already one of the hardest areas in the game, and Anet kept adding counters skill to farm builds, which ironically always got circumvented by those exact teams, which completely destroyed the ability for a balanced team (In which any profession could participate) to exist.

Any form of tanking not based on the natural capabilities of the profession (Shadow Form, ranger block stances which last a year, +a million armor skills, Prot spirit, ...) should've never existed in this game. On top of that, AoE skills without a limit should've never existed aswell. The first farming builds broke the market by pushing down the prices of ectos from 15K+ to less than 8K, this was a clear sign that people being able to kill intire groups of mobs faster solo than an intire team could is not particularly good for the game.

I know GW is dead anyways (In b4 the carebears say it isn't), but I wouldn't mind seeing a complete nerf to all skills which result in being able to tank a near infinite amount of foes. (With the exception of prot spirit, which imo should end after X hits) Aswell as those skills which can kill intire mobs in a matter of seconds where a balanced team would spend minutes on. (Sliver Armor, Whirling for starters)

Since UW is all about SC I don't pug that area anymore.....IMO if you want to play UW but not with a some cookie cutter speed clear team build, just go with your heroes practice on normal and move over to HM...

I assume English is not your first language, as your writing of it is so bad, and your reading skills aren't too hot either.

You now say you have "2 manned" the UW, so you have someone else with you and I presume one had a tank build. That is not what is being discussed, please read the thread.

As I said, I've done speedclears of UW YEARS ago, and more recently when Dhuum and his friends showed up. It's old, boring and easy.

Summary of OP is one sentence:
"This is too hard, make it easier for me now!"

Honestly, there is no suggestion I can give in this thread because I believe OP may just be trolling us.

Everyone keeps missing the point of the gripe(s), including the original complainer.

The UW is an [b]ELITE[/b} area. ANET was, for a very long time, committed to the idea that no one should be able to solo elite areas. They nerfed trapping spirits based upon this philosophy.

The 4 Horsemen, King Frozenwind, and the dryders in the bone pits can all cause wipes due to one wrong move. What's new? If you have done Urgoz you understand how that works.

The problem all began when ANet introduced God Mode for assassins. It wasn't a bad idea if it had lasted 1-3 months. Sins get a lot of PvE hate, and a short period of serendipity was a big thank you from ANet for playing a long neglected class.

Then it kept going...and going...and going. Even today it continues in a form of reduced functionality.

Suddenly being able to farm ectos and clear elite areas became a right instead of a priveledge.

So many people created sins for farming that it's now an integral part of the game. I hope whoever came up with this idea is not part of the decision making process of balancing GW2 or I fear for the future.

I digress. It is frustrating to devote a massive amount of time to the UW, but I would recommend that you should focus on the areas that are difficult for you first if your goal is to clear. Doing it in the order of Ice Wastes, Chaos Plains, then Bone Pits. Those are the three areas that can trip you up or you can just get unlucky. Maybe throw in Unwanted Guests in HM (easy in NM).
After that it's just a matter of getting everyone on the same page ( or microing heroes) at Dhuum.

I think it read more as "this takes far too long in one sitting, why not split it up like other high end areas?"

But, you can take it as a cry of another kind if you like. It should make for a good off-topic argument with someone.

Even though I uwsc, I can see where the op is comming from. All of the addition to uw (put in place to control rampant sc's+the addition of dhuum) have only slowed sc's down by a minimal amount. However those same changes have slowed non-sc teams significantly to the point where it has becomes an issue.

Not everyone has 2-3hrs to devote to completing uw with heros let alone trying to form a group of 8 ppl that all have the same open window at the same time.

Imo allowing checkmarks for uw or making the 2 quests (4h and servents) more applicable to non sc groups is completely reasonable.

I'd have no problem with them adjustig the quest structure. The OP is correct in that. I thought the reason they nerfed Ursan was for the very same thing we're seeing regarding UW? ALL the arguments seem to fit!

UW does take quite a bit of time to do and allowing partial completion wouldn't be a bad idea in my book.

I never mentioned to make uw easier in the sence change its dynamics, I only mean to state what others have also that it takes to long and a save option would be a nice introduction.

i dont need to clear uw in rapid time I acually enjoy the area killing everything and having fun doing it . and I am also no noob at elite areas but as my main is a monk i dont see why i need to change my toon to fit into a specal group like the sc teams to complete just that Area.

as for my guild helping that isnt the issue either, some of us have time restrains with work and kidds so It is very hard to get 2-3 hrs just to do uw completly, and having the fun in killing everything in there, its so fun.

And please do not get me wrong i really have no prob with the guys that run the sc builds and can do so, way I look at it they are just more comitted to the game and have alot more talent in running there builds then I do. so good luck to them, me I like the stress free fun of the game.

cheers

Thing I hate most about UW and some other speed clears is that some builds and professions are welcome. I would really hate to see this continue in gw2.

Yeah, seriously. Would that really "ruin" the game or anything? I go into the Underworld all the time to screw around but I've never come close to devoting the hours needed to do all of the quests. DoA lets you do it in chunks.

The amount of whining in this thread kind of makes me laugh. ESPECIALLY at the shadowform hate. First of all, SF while it is powerful, is not the skill that keeps you alive, its Shroud of Distress. Secondly, pcons and cons are what makes speed clears(for the most part) actually fast. Without them most SC teams would just have the tactics to do areas quickly, and not all the extras that make it possible. Third, in a game where vanity is EVERYTHING as far as rewards go, please tell me why anyone would willing choose to do the same thing over and over if it takes an absurd amount of time? and then still have only a tiny chance at that vain item. Speed Clears aren't bad for the game, they fit right into the system that has been built over the years. They do not make completing underworld or any other area easy, as it takes time and practice to actually not fail.

More on topic then I've been in this post though - UW is entirely possible with a balanced team. It's possible with heroes, and nothing besides yourself can prevent you from using Pcons or cons to help speed up the process/make things easier. In all things, challenges are meant to be difficult, and thats what UW is, a challenge. Think of a marathon, with time, practice, and lots of preparation, you can cross that finish line and it clearly wasn't impossible, but it takes time. Endurance and length can be a factor in difficulty and clearly anet used them as factors when building and then revamping The Underworld.

P.S. Maybe this sounds ridiculous to some people but to all those who "Just don't have 3+ hours to dedicate to ONE THING" I have two things to say. #1. If you're not willing to take the time and effort to EARN your statue then you don't deserve it. #2. Why can't you just plan accordingly? If you have 2 hours, start UW and go through the progressions and quests you have time for until you know you won't have time for the next quest. Stay in a safe spot(IE any reaper once the quest is done or after you've cleared up to them and he's just popped) and stand still till you get back? Would it kill you to leave your computer on for a few hours while your're not there? Maybe you have a laptop with a bad battery, well why not just plug the charger in? and if you're response is I need the computer for something else, THEN MINIMIZE THE GAME! Guild Wars doesn't need to be the active thing on your screen to be running.

Edit: Breaking up the UW into sections like DoA would ruin the area. Each quest and popping the reaper leading up to it, standalone, with a team of heroes or just a balanced random 8 person team, would make UW STAGGERINGLY easy. 4h would still present some form of challenge, but within a day or two, any team should easily be able to clear the entirety of The UW with little to no problems. The difficulty of UW comes from having to do it all at once.

Double EDIT: @killed Sliver armor was nerfed and on a sin using SF requires practice to get right, it also does not clear things faster then a balanced tank and 7 man team could.

Triple EDIT: Just incase I feel the need to re-read this shit again and comment further.

UW is so hard and long because ANet kept adding to it to slow down the sins, regardless of every other profession or play style. The one thing they absolutely refused to do was fix Broken Form. So basically UW is now only fit for the speed clear specialists (Yup, even after the massive power creep to the area, SC is still the game, failnet) and specific area farming.

But hey, why would ANet want to encourage normal gameplay when it's easier to placate the whinassins.

1) It's not shroud alone ..it's the combination of shoud and sf......maintainable spell prot> blocking and regen in almost every instance

2) The pcons and other cons speed uw up, but not nearly as much as individuals being able to complete quests solo

3) Yes it is possible, but it is not practical for non sc groups

4) Try getting other ppl to leave their comps on and do uw over the coarse of a day or two in sections....see how well that turns out for ya...degregating uw to heros only in this fashion is well.....

5) sliver wasnt really nerfed all that much it still works very well

6) don't confuse concerns with whinning

1) Everything stated about SF was whining, not a concern.

2) I know sliver works just fine, I use it all the time, my point was, it doesn't obliterate entire mobs as described.

3) My cons/pcons point was you couldn't solo the quests without them. So not only is your overall time slower but you need the team to help with quests anyway.

4) So because its impractical for people who don't speed clear to do it should be made easier? Thats absurd.

5) Offering the suggestion to leave you're computer on for a few hours while you are away doing whatever you need isn't so unrealistic, and if it is, and you CAN'T EVER dedicate however long its going to take you, then you CAN'T best the challenge of UW. Period. Length of time is a factor of difficulty.

6) If I need to dedicate half my skill bar or more(EVEN AN ENTIRE OTHER PERSONS SKILL BAR) to stay alive while tanking an ELITE area, it shouldn't be a problem. Its not like one skill enables god mode. Its a combination of a few in different circumstances, and even still you can be taken down, and with the damage cap on SF, people have to get more and more creative to SC faster. Top UW teams don't even need a sin, though the rangers would use SF.

7) It's course. Not coarse.

Let's address these 2

4) UW was made more difficult expressly to combat sc's, not b/c it was too easy for non-sc groups. So the suggestion to make it easier on non-sc groups is not that absurd. Heck put in some incubus with soulrending shriek to counter the change.

5) GW has always fancied itself towards casual play...expecting ppl to devote so much time to uw is asinine. Remember this is also very counterproductive to grouping which in itself if a whole new can of worms.

If they killed maintanable spell prot in uw it would in not really effect non sc group, however it would devastate sc's..if the shoe were on the other foot would you still feel the same?

Addressing back.

5) That what scheduling and planning is for. Trying to balancedway pug UW is one of the worst ideas anyone could conceive at this point in the game. If you aren't in a guild with people willing to balanced, there is a great forum on here for pugging which can be used for thing just like this, get some exp people together and schedule some goes at it. The scheduling won't take time at all, and since your actually planning ahead you can be sure to have the amount of time you need to do it.

4) Where do you propose they be? In every section of the UW? What would the point of that be? It doesn't make your life easier it only makes SC'ers harder. Which is why I have this question, and an answer to your finishing question. If the shoe where on the other foot I wouldn't care, nor try to stop you from doing things the way you want. NOTHING stops you or anyone(save VERY SPECIAL cases) from learning and practicing Speed Clears. NOTHING stops SC'ers from doing things in a balanced manner, which can actually happen from time to time, though its still seldom. So my question back is why must maintainable spell protection be killed if it doesn't effect the way you have to play through the content. Skeletons of Dhumm are NOT that difficult to deal with, and as demonstrated by numerous people Dhumm isn't all that difficult with some pre-UW prep on your build to either keep him perma KD'd or whatever other strats have been used.

One more question(or a set all pertaining to the same thing), my previous 1) is opinion I get not answering that, but 2 and three aren't opinion, why not respond to those? 5) is just an option why shoot it down if its just ONE THING those with a time constraint COULD do? Why no response to 6)? Was it just not worth you're time?

Cause honestly it seems like anyone who uses time as an excuse is just butthurt that people SC when they could just as easily have taken/ could still take the time to do it. If you're against it/not willing, then do things the old fashioned way and stop whining/complaining, its your choice.

Checkpoints to bring UW more into line with other elite areas like Slavers and DOA is a good idea. At least that way you don't loose hours of work if dhuum wipes you, which is not only annoying, it's plain stupid.

I've never actually done the quest chain, is that really true? Would breaking it up make is "easy" or just more convenient? I would think you are ultimately still having to perform the same tasks. Again, I think there is a difference between making something too easy vs. making it less tedious.