a change to underworld

To everyone who wants a DoA style UW, have any of you ever even tried it? You do realize that all the quests are linked and they would need to be re-done if you have all the areas made separate.

You also realize the farming ramifications of this action right? Imagine starting at wastes with you're solo farmer. Starting at Plains or Pools with you're solo. Market will crash. Just thinking about it, where would you spawn for mountains? At the base where Unwanted Guests ends? So your team spawns in an area where you will be almost surely wiped instantly? Or make thing easier for you again and just remove all aggro there?

Asking for a DoA style UW is like asking for the statue to be placed into you're hall if you've made it to ToA on any character. It would be that easy.

EDIT: To answer Voodoo, yes it would make thing easier. The reason for this is because first you must actually 'pop' the reaper who spawns the quest which would require making it from any area all the way to him, and then once he is 'popped' completing his quest. Allowing you to spawn in any area allows you to skip any enemies you would need to face just to make it to the person to accept the quest. This is what makes doing things as a balanced team take time and effort, because you don't have a terra to pop the quest for you/complete it for you. And as I said in this post, all the quests are linked together because without Restoring, none of the reapers would pop. Which would mean you'd HAVE to complete the labyrinth first in order to even attempt the other areas.

It would, of course, make it easier than doing it all at once. Just as merging all of the other split dungeons into one run would make it more difficult. The problem with UW is it takes the longest to do of anything in GW, has had vast restructures and additions made to it to combat SC's, and the groups that feel the biggest brunt of these additions are casual players and PUG's. In classic Anet fashion the SC'ers and farmers feel a very small difference in efficiency in comparison to PUG's and casual players going about things the "right way".

You mean like just about every other area/dungeon? I'm not quite sure why you're holding UW in such high regard in the grand scheme of end-game gameplay. It's not difficult at all to get the precious statue, but the length of the area is an issue for most people with a job and/or kids. A split and buff of the enemies/quests would be a reasonable alternative.

UW foes drop ecto, ecto is a huge part of the ingame economy, moreso then any other farmable item in game. Giving people the ability to start in an area and repeat it like its an explorable would drop the price of ecto like crazy.

Even if you work 10 hours a day and sleep for 8 you have 6 hours to get yourself ready and to work, back home, and eat, and if that takes all 6 hours, every single day, meaning you never have a break, not on weekends nor vacations or anything, then learn to speed clear and do it in an hour. That can be broken up over weeks and won't take much time at all. UWSC can utilize, eles, sins, rits, rangers, mesmers, necros, and monks. That leaves out Para, Warriors, and Dervs. Of which its possible to devise a build which works with both Warriors and Dervs and probably paras. But in the event you just want the immediate RIGHT THERE FOR YOU answer, go learn to SC on almost any profession. If you ONLY play war, derv, or para, and don't have the time to UW balanced, go make money, save roughly 70k and have someone run it for you.

EDIT: Sure a split would be reasonable with a buff, but what buff could you reasonably make? UW already has Skeles which hurt even perma, Vengefuls which are INVINCIBLE, mindblades who are the epitome of anti-spellcasters, and just a general overall difficulty with graspings, bladeds, and coldfires. Not to mention you need to keep an npc(albeit a stagnant one) alive before his quest is completed. It is the highest thing to hold in regard to the game of guildwars. Its one set challenge, all of which, is already considerably difficult.

You have provided no reason for a change to not occur. Ecto prices would drop? Require the same starting position for the UW, just allow a handful of quests to be done in one go. It would not affect ecto one bit, correct? Okay. That takes care of the economy worries.

What are the other issues?

I think you might be severly underestimating the time this all would take. Not to mention having to redo it all if there is mistake made.

Either inplace of skeles of dhuum or inplace of a couple of mindblades...or simply replace the skele aoe "flurry of splinters" with a monster skill like soul rending. The aoe skeles dish out has much more of an effect on reg groups than it does on a solo'er...making them much more of concern when they spawn along with numerous other foes which spell prot renders insignificant.

2&3 were responses to comments that I had made...2 addressed it and 3 sorta avoided the issue of using cons to solo vs using cons to simply speed up

5...you have to admit that expecting ppl to complete uw over the course of that much time is unrealistic and expecting ppl to all plan to do the same together is even worse

6 see above

I uwsc a lot... I fowsc a lot..I doasc a lot..I do all the dungeon sc's a lot...I am not worried about myself here....I am simply putting myself in the position of those who don't.

Responses in quote

IF the UW was changed to have you start at the labyrinth each time you entered and all of the foes and aggro was regenerated, the only difference being your quest log reads as a previous quest(s) you've completed is done, then while it would still be easier, I wouldn't really have a problem with it, but it quite frankly doesn't need to be changed.

Here I'll make it simple stop being shitty players. GW is a light RPG compared to the majority out there. I don't know how many ever played everquest but killing the sleeper was a massive undertaking think UW x100. I think it is only fair that GW is allowed 1-2 sort of hard zones to keep the section of the playerbase that wants more than a c-space win dungeon.

In my alliance we run SC and balanced UW builds guess what both take under an hour to complete and the majority prefer the balanced run since it allows a variety of classes.

The final thing I want to point out is how many statues are there for completing a single dungeon? I think that alone should give an idea on the difficulty of UW and why it is difficult.

Comparing GW to another game that isn't even in the same genre is pretty strange. If D2 has teleportation, why can't GW then? Splitting the quests up wouldn't make them any less difficult, it would only shorten the length of the entire UW area and increase the odds of finishing since a single wipe wouldn't cause the entire party to boot.

Simple solutions:

• Split it up into 3 quests with sub-quest "packages". Can map out after any package via NPC.

• Allow a full clear in one run for SC's to save on their cons. You can play as usual.

• Keep the UW start position the same regardless of quest "package" the team is attempting.

• Party wipes clear any previous completed packages.

Retains difficulty but allows a fragmented completion.

Yeah, that's constructive....

I agree with was previous posters said about not being able to come back and spawn wherever you want or where you left off. All I would propose is that if you completed one of the sub-quests, you don't have to repeat it, it stays checked off. If you re-enter, you still have to go to the beginning and face the same mobs, you just don't have to redo that specific quest. If you fully defeat Dhuum, then the quest chain resets (so no Dhuum farming like Duncan).

Adjust this so you can teleport to reapers whose quest you've completed, and we got something here.

No, because that causes the farming issue again.

I wouldn't mind something like that.

And "stop being bad" is kind of crappy and stupid advice when the setup of the area makes it difficult to get good at it. I've done UW exactly once, not long after Dhuum was added. I'd like to do it again, but that one time I've done it? It took two and a half hours to complete. It's hard for me to be able to dedicate that big of a chunk of time to a video game. Not everyone's in a guild with a bunch of people that are able to drop everything to play with them, either.

What stops you from learning to speed clear it then?

I have no interest in speed clearing, I do not like playing Assassin which is the most popular profession for it (I am a primary Dervish, as it says under my username and avatar over there), I am in absolutely no need of money, and I do not know any speed clear people nor do I want to leave my guild to try and find a SC guild.

There's a difference between "I want to finish it as fast as humanly possible" (SC), and "I'd like to be able to complete it in a reasonable amount of time with the option of being able to save quest completion progress" (what I and others in this thread said).

Here's the skill Net http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soulrending_Shriek

Oh that

But still, why does nerfing maintainable spell prot NEED to be done?


AHEM, what gives you or anyone the right to deem what a reasonable amount of time is. Is it an hour? Maybe thirty minutes? Either way it can be done in an efficient manner with or without speed clearing it the traditional way. Speed Clearing doesn't HAVE to mean using a sin of SF and blazing through with meta SC builds.

Again the whole stop and go thing just makes simpler and easier, which means all in all you aren't willing to do what it takes to beat one of the most elite areas in the game as it was intended, and thats what getting the statue is for, thats what getting the end chest is for, thats what the reward you get at the end of beating Dhumm when you say to yourself, Holy shit, just beat the hardest thing this game has to offer, thats pretty cool.

I play lots of videos games, not so much now, but over the years I've played ALOT. Rpgs, shooters, music, whatever. In online shooters and racers, times and kill death/ win loss matters. In music games hitting all the notes and keeping streak matters. In rpgs the only thing that matters is completion or speed, and if you aren't aiming for the speed of it, you should NEED to take the time to beat it as intended, not break it up as you see fit.

I third this sentiment.

I've rarely spent less than an hour putting together a group for UW, and have NEVER been
able to get through the whole thing without at least one person dropping out before we're
done.

It is do-able using heroes, or a combination of people and heroes but even so... it's really
tough to come up with three or four hours straight to play a game. When it would be so
easy to break it down into more reasonable segments it should be done.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to be able to get a group of dedicated players together and take
on an epic quest ... failure is not an option. But the reality is that I just can't guarantee a group
of seven others that I will be able to play uninterrupted for four hours or expect them to do
the same for me.

I'm not saying we should sign a pitition or anything like that. I'm just echoing the seniment
put forth by Lasai.

I have the right to decide what I think is a reasonable amount of time for me. I have other responsibilities and obligations. I've beaten UW already, as I said - I have the statue in my HoM. It really wasn't terribly difficult - I've encountered things in regular gameplay that were more difficult than doing UW. It was just long, tedious, and time-consuming. It's not the literal difficulty that's the problem, it's the fact that it is so time-consuming. I would like to go through and do UW again, but I can't dedicate most of my free time to it, knowing that one mistake, or something coming up IRL that needs to be taken care of, and I'm SOL and that time was wasted. I can't stay up until 1-2am playing. I play other games than just GW. And I doubt I'm the only gamer here that faces those same issues.

I've been playing video games a long time, too (over two decades), and I've played a lot, and I disagree with what you think the point of an RPG is. It's not speed nor completion; it's playing through and experiencing a story. But then again, most video game RPGs are either open sandboxes with little plot, or you're pretty much playing a movie, and either way it has little resemblance to actual RPing.

LoL, and guess what.. Everquest2 allows raid groups to "save" an instance now so they can take it up again where they left off, including areas already cleared.

Wake up.. it's not a difficulty thing.. it is a time thing. The idiotic timesinks of early Everquest and others are a dead thing of the past, and getting deader as companies realize that the casual gamer is the one with both the checkbook and the smallest blocks of gaming time.

I still fail to see the difference in killing the same mobs, in the same area, to the same end result.. and with roughly the same time committed.. the only difference being that it could be done in "chunks" of time rather than one session. How is that a "c-space" win?

Because it's different than how he did it, obviously.

did any where i baged sf umm no.

As some of you had understood me i have np with the content in uw and wouldnt care if they made the area even a little more diffcult, all I am say is TIME is a major issue with it.

I dont need to sc an area had enough of 600ing cof to last me . I love the challenge of working at hard areas I would just like uw to have some form of save opton.

If you are worried about econamy of ectos make it so that once you have cleared an area poped the reaper and done his quest then that area stayes cleared till you have completed the entire thing. ecto farming then wouldnt be an issue.

then if you get wiped by one challenge you dont go back to start you work harder at that till you can finish it.

Hell make the area harder throw in some serous bad ass dragons like rotwing or something lol wouldnt bother me, be even more fun.

and for thouse of you saying I am inexperanced at playing games I remeber when PONG was realeasd and that was the bigest challenge out.

lol cheers

Uh... KUMan, are you on crack today? I cannot imagine a "casual player" doing 4H in HM with heroes. Not even by cloning Jack or Jeydra's build. And then Dhuum is a whole other problem. At best, cons plus stealing a build might get maybe the more skillful half of "casual players" past UW NM.

This is spot on. UW is such a huge pain in the arse for normal teams because of all the changes made for those stupid SF sins.

The best solution would be to just do what always should have been done and make SF non-maintainable. (Combined with removing a lot of the skeletons and reverting some of the quest spawns.)

The second-best solution is to do change Clear the Chamber in such a way that SF can't ever get past it. (Again, combined with rolling back most of the changes made to counter SCs.) Perhaps double the size of the squid mobs by adding some D/N squids with a bunch of "rending X" skills and a monster skill that creates a Well of Profane when they die? Or perhaps convert all the squids into touchers? E/Me with Stoneflesh, heavy hex removal, dual visages, and PBAoE? Monster skill that increases the recharge of your skills and removes an enchant?

Some variant on a speed clear. I don't believe that it's possible for a true balanced team (whole team does everything together; no SF or other gimmick builds splitting to complete areas solo) to do it in less than 1:20. 1:40 is a lot closer to normal.

It's ironic that we usually hear this from people who couldn't possibly complete UW if a-net took away their SF.

I am not a big user of SF as I find it quite boring even though I did make the R/A whirling build for farming. I've completed most of uw minus quests solo as seen in some of my old farm builds.

The time taken to complete a zone directly correlates to the players skill level. I do agree the base line for UW is quite a bit higher than other zones but that is a good thing as the end game content is quite lacking in GW. If they did make changes to allow picking up where you left off in UW they better have a fool proof way of making it so it can't be abused for farming.
I would agree to adding a way to resume quests but I don't have faith in anet to actually make it fool proof hence I prefer the current situation.

I think personally the best way to end the SF abuse in it's extreme form is to replace dying nightmares with random stormcloud incubus spawns. If they did this a good SF user could still survive at times while making it inconsistent enough to cause them to keep a main team nearby just in case. It would really slow down the SC teams and it would allow the skeletons to be removed or reduced.

So enough of ruffling peoples' feathers I think I will see what can be done for builds to pop reapers that use either alternate spell protection or none at all. I think that could be a fun challenge.

Time. Is. A. Part. Of. Difficulty.

If time is THAT MUCH a problem for you, that you can't even plan to do it ONCE. either Speed Clear it, or simply give up. Asking any game developers to make MAJOR changes to one of their most significantly difficult things simply because you and a less than majority of others can't organize a get together to do it is in my eyes absurd. Just like calling for a nerf of SF is absurd when Obby Flesh is more powerful tenfold. So many people who refuse to use a skill they find breaks the game are angry and bitter at the wrong thing. Its not the users of SF's fault that its in the game, nor is it our fault that there are cons which make it easy to maintain. Its not our fault that the UW is long, and in comparison to majority of the game marginally more difficult. Even if Skeles where taken out of UW, and SF was nerfed/made unmaintainable, it doesn't improve much of anything for a balanced team. Sure one less difficult foe, but you still have hundreds you need to best in order to get to and complete each quest, you still can't let a reaper die, nor have a party wipe. You still have to face Dhumm, which in all honesty isn't so awful. So why call for SF to be nerfed? Why call for the removal of skeles? To cut the time it would take you minimally? Is that extra 15-20 minutes that crucial? We don't call for skill nerfs and buffs, we just adapt, grow, and get better. Any class could be used in UW, plenty of balancedways went down during the halloween quests for the tot bags.

And Verene, I didn't say the point of RPGs was completion, I don't feel that way at all. But rather completion and time, are, from what I can see, the only measurable things in regard to how well you've done at(quest, mission, elite area, whatever) X. And well, as I said before if your not aiming for speed, which is well within you're rights to do, just aiming for completion, it is my belief that you should have to actually go through the whole thing to complete it, that breaking it up, changing things so they are easier then originally intended, isn't right. I'd like to know what you've found more difficult then a balanced UW, or anything regarding to UW. The only place I think even comes close is DoA, and yet as a balanced team you can go in, specify you're builds to an area, and then go for a whole new strategy with another, and that ALONE makes anything broken into pieces easier.

I always thought that there was a place for a few elite areas. UW and DoA seem to fit that bill the best and I think it's ok that there are places that are tough.

However, there are a couple of issues related to this where I agree with a need for change. It's true that there are always a couple of gimmick builds that seem to make those areas easy to farm: as long as you play the builds. To me that makes a tough area too easy for the farmers. If UW is supposed to be elite then it shouldn't be a farmer's easy farm for ecto's and such. So I agree with the opinions that these gimmicky builds have it too easy.

The second problem is that UW is basically the only source for ecto's...a rare material needed for armour in FoW...do you see why this is odd? FoW is a lot easier compared to UW but getting the most important material is not possible in FoW.

I think it would be better that ecto's also drop in FoW if UW is supposed to be extra tough. Of course the drop rate should be lower to keep UW interesting. But I wonder how many of these ecto farmers actually still are after FoW armour and chaos gloves and why Anet would limit the main material to an area that is basically not there for the more casual player, even if that player puts in a lot of hours.

I for one, see an odd inconsistency in this. Elite zones are fine...restricting materials to zones like that that are needed for items elsewhere I don't agree with.

DoA is set up better for that: At least the gems are only useable for items you can get there and not somewhere else.

But almost any class can farm ectos :/ and Its not like the farmers can just go through and complete the whole thing.

Sins
Eles
Ranger
Monk
Warrior
Derv
Rit
Mes

That leaves Para and Necro. Para is Anets fault since it was meant to be a team player, and Necro would need a partner.

People actually believe that speed clears and the overpowered-skills used in them are okay and don't need to be nerfed? How delusional can people get . . .

To the people saying that shadowform (and other skills used in SC's) takes skill, you are painfully mistaken.

@Net The Nabi: You have been saying a lot of pro-SC stuff, defending something that has impacted this game negatively as a whole and I don't feel like writing a huge wall of text (again) explaining why speed clears and skills like shadowform/obsidian flesh are bad for this game because it's pretty obvious that they are. No one is blaming the SF users that it is in the game. No one blames them for using it but it is extremely foolish of them to be arguing for a skill that is clearly a big fish in a small pond and shows how much this game's high-end community has deteriorated as a result of ridiculous buffs to certain skills (by anet).

Sorry I should've been more specific. To me speed clearing is farming. And yes I am also against being able to solo farm in elite areas...that is even more ridiculous to me.

Did you even think before posting this? Like, seriously? FoW armor requires both Ecto and SHARDS, an item exclusive to FoW. In fact, ecto's CAN drop in FoW, from the Banshees. Also, ecto isn't the most important material, you need an equal amount of ecto and shards to do it.

Another thing, FoW was meant to be harder than UW at the start -this can be seen from various things: collectibles that drop in FoW salvage for more than things in UW, the Forgeman is in FoW, and getting the armor was supposed to be hard, FoW has 11 quests as opposed to UW's original 10 etc- it's just because of powercreep that FoW has become easier than UW. Also, farming builds for FoW used to thrive as well..

the people whining about the time it takes - to this I say uw is the only place you can get eblades and mini dhuums which kinda makes sense that it should take the longest.

As far as the skeles added for sc's they're not that much of a problem once you know where they patrol, they're actually squishy.

And as far as the sc's in general I believe anet should regularly update uw to make it tougher for sc's. This isn't from an anti-sc standpoint (I've basically retired from sc's ;P) because the players who play sc often and enjoy it would welcome the new challenges to keep sc's fresh. Also the players who don't like sc's would be happy because less people would be able to keep up with changes.

And while on the subject ;P as far as sc's go in general sf is definately not god, join some pugs and see the fail rates on most groups. Also most people fail and spend a considerable amount of money while learning areas/roles of sc's.

Except, we're debating the time it takes in one sitting. We're not trying to cut down the time to complete the entire area. That is a important distinction many on your side of the argument are either not grasping or overlooking purposefully.

How would any of said items value diminish if the area was still just as difficult, or even more difficult as many of us suggested as a trade off, only could be completed in portions?

A scenario outlined like I did here (click) would actually work for everyone, would it not?

And while on the subject , join some non-sc pugs and see the fail rates on most groups...
I still believe it's quite harsh failing on dhuum after 1 hour 30 than failing at 4h after 25mn.....( but wait , dhuum and skeletons were supposed to slow down sc teams yes..)

You don't need to complete the dungeon in HM in order to get it HoM approved and NM UW is extremely easy with heroes only using the spirit spamming method at 4 horsemen.

I still think there is a disconnect between between thinking that "long and tedious and prone to random stuff happening that will cause you to fail" = "hard". Yes, it is harder but for the wrong reasons. I think hard should mean that you need to have optimal builds, optimal tactics, and experience in the game. Just having the will to grind through a long quest chain doesn't necessarily make you "elite". I really don't see what the SC'ers are so concerned about if they tweaked the way the quests checked off. You can still do your speed clear. Ecto prices are not going to change one iota since if people want to ecto farm that really has nothing to do with the quests (I can still pop in with my heroes and go farm the plains whenever I feel like it right now). OK, maybe a few Dhuum mini's pop over time. A few people get an extra .2 points on their HoM that they might not have achieved before. Is that really an issue?

I'm sorry, I think you guys are just coming across kind of selfish. "This is OUR place and we don't want other people to enjoy it." YOUR game play won't be affected AT ALL.

Backing this. While pioneering UW HM 7H no cons, getting pwned by Dhuum after spending 3 hours of play was a major mental roadblock. So was taking ~30 minutes of non-casual play to get to any of the hard quests. If nothing else I'd suggest making Dhuum something like Mallyx: completing all the previous quests maps you out into ToA, and then you can head directly to confront Dhuum. But such a change would make UW HM a lot more flexible (you can run standard builds and then switch to something that's anti-Dhuum).

On other matters:

1. UW HM is doable 7H no cons, although it takes careful execution. With cons it's pretty simple. Relative to HM, NM is nothing much. So I'm seriously tempted to say in response to "can't get statue for HoM" - get better, not ask for changes.
2. Shadow Form is bull****. It's not just UW. Shadow Form is crazily overpowered in so many areas it's not funny. I really don't see why ANet hasn't nerfed it yet. Oh, and Obsidian Flesh is overpowered as well.
3. 3 hours is a long time to play without a break. Even if you take a break, you can't do anything else (e.g. step into Random Arena). This is something I don't like, but getting past this will take major, major revamping to UW.

Of course I thought about it you smart ***. But guess what? The shards you get in the same place as where you get the armour. So there is no issue there.

How about you think before falling out against someone, hmm?

Lemme requote and highlight the flaws.

Ecto is not the most important material, it's equally important as Shards. You make it sound like buying 100+ shards or gathering them means nothing and is redundant when buying the armor.

Ecto's already drop in FoW, at a very low droprate, so no point there.

There is nothing wrong with this. Getting FoW armor should be hard, costly and it makes sense that the 2 toughest elite areas -originally- in game provide those. Why does it strike you as odd that needing materials from another place for armor is considered normal? If you ask me, Cloth, Steel etc should also drop in FoW from now on! Because it doesn't make sense to me that I have to get them outside of the area where I want to get my armor.

Coffers say hi.

Your entire theory is flawed because you consider items dropping in one place that are needed in the other to be bad. It makes perfect sense.

How about you reread your stuff and think about why I asked you if you thought it through before trying to outsmart *** me.

Bright you forgot to mention tombs for ectos, if you are gonna blow up someones arguement you may as well blow it up completely.

It seems like, to me people are just concerned about the fact that Speed Clears can do it 45minutes on average where as a Balanced (or not since people are opposed to that too) take about an hour to two hours.

Too be honest, I think adding the 'checkpoints' as people seem to be wanting because they are concerned about having to redo the quests 'again'. Which, Fissure of Woe is no different the groups there just run slightly differently than the groups in Underworld. This would change the entire mechanics of the zone, which all in all may not be a bad thing, but I would not be expecting to be any easier than it is right now in fact, if ANet were to do this they would (more than likely) make it more difficult to counterbalance the fact that you do not need to do it one sitting.

I have been both a 'casual' player and a Speed Clear player, I understand that Underworld can be difficult for those who do not have the time. It is not unreasonable for a game to offer some challenge to those who would like to have it. If you need the statue take up one of the easier roles in UWSC or ask some friends who might know how to do it and teach you the roles that are easier and require less 'effort' and time to put in. DoA and UW are completely different areas and are more than welcome to have completely different mechanics to run within them.