Or maybe you just can't do it but think you can - see the parable of the fox and the grapes. Plenty of DoA screenshots have been posted, just use the builds in the screenshots and be done with it.
Are you going to name an area after all?
PS: pardon me, I just get annoyed when clearly less experienced players criticize clearly more experienced players, as though it is blindingly obvious whether BiP is a good skill.
(Overview) Mesmer hero AI - general tips and opinionated comments.
Jeydra
bhavv
I'd name FoW because its easily doable, and I wouldnt think that a 30 minute area would show enough difference with or without Bip.
I only just read the hero tier thread, and it helped me to realize what I am trying to say -
I personally consider the necromancer to be a high tier hero class, and before the 7 hero update I always found that it was the top class to use as heroes (mostly due to having to fill the rest of your team with henchmen).
However, I do not believe that Bip is in the same tier as an Elite Skill or a build choice as the many other necromancer builds that could be used instead. I dont see it being beneficial at all to my hero group as opposed to simply running a few energy management skills wherever they are needed.
This doesnt mean that people cant successfully use Bip, after all you can complete the entire game with professions that some people would consider to be the worst tier, I just do not see it as being a better alternative for me to use in comparison to the top tier necromancer elites.
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
I only just read the hero tier thread, and it helped me to realize what I am trying to say -
I personally consider the necromancer to be a high tier hero class, and before the 7 hero update I always found that it was the top class to use as heroes (mostly due to having to fill the rest of your team with henchmen).
However, I do not believe that Bip is in the same tier as an Elite Skill or a build choice as the many other necromancer builds that could be used instead. I dont see it being beneficial at all to my hero group as opposed to simply running a few energy management skills wherever they are needed.
This doesnt mean that people cant successfully use Bip, after all you can complete the entire game with professions that some people would consider to be the worst tier, I just do not see it as being a better alternative for me to use in comparison to the top tier necromancer elites.
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PS: pardon me, I just get annoyed when clearly less experienced players criticize clearly more experienced players, as though it is blindingly obvious whether BiP is a good skill.
Define experienced. Bip is a brilliant skill to have on a player necromancer for some parts of the game, but I wouldnt be able to trust the hero AI with it, and people are actually proving this by saying how much they need to spec into extra prots and heals just to support a hero bipper. Wouldnt that be because the AI overuses it? Either reduce or even remove the health sac, and maybe give it a 5s recharge and I would gladly take it on a hero, but in its current state of 33% sac and spammable, I dont want it being used by a hero in my team. I think that blood ritual would work a lot better on a hero, as running into touch range to cast it isnt an issue in a full caster team.
And out of my curiosity, I think I might just end up loving Bip, depending on how this works out:
I'm going to try it, and will see how fast I can complete a FoW zerg run.
And out of my curiosity, I think I might just end up loving Bip, depending on how this works out:
I'm going to try it, and will see how fast I can complete a FoW zerg run.
Dzjudz
To call BiP blindingly obviously a good skill is a little short-sighted I think.
Sure, +5 energy regeneration is good, we can all agree on that.
But what do you actually gain and do you need it?
You arguably free up 2 slots on domination mesmers, although I think it's very debatable whether you really want to drop all energy management. What do you use for these 2 slots that improves their damage output? Most hard-hitting skills are already on the bar.
Furthermore, you need to slot BiP somewhere, losing that hero's elite. This will affect your team in a bigger or smaller way. Usually you'd put in on the MM, losing JB or AotL, or on the resto necro, losing a resto/blood/curse elite.
Finally, the team probably needs some additional protection and/or healing to cope with the saccing BiP hero. Yes, Smite Monks deal damage while Smiting Hexes etc, but they don't actually have spot heals that also deal damage... Life or PwK aren't viable either: you can't time Life and PwK is just once every 30 sec, and you don't really want to waste it on a single sac. No, what you need is an additional spot heal or two and extra attention from the healer.
In the end, do you even need BiP? Do your heroes suffer from energy shortages without it? And if so, can't you just switch one non-elite skill on that hero for an energy management skill instead of slotting BiP somewhere?
Sure, +5 energy regeneration is good, we can all agree on that.
But what do you actually gain and do you need it?
You arguably free up 2 slots on domination mesmers, although I think it's very debatable whether you really want to drop all energy management. What do you use for these 2 slots that improves their damage output? Most hard-hitting skills are already on the bar.
Furthermore, you need to slot BiP somewhere, losing that hero's elite. This will affect your team in a bigger or smaller way. Usually you'd put in on the MM, losing JB or AotL, or on the resto necro, losing a resto/blood/curse elite.
Finally, the team probably needs some additional protection and/or healing to cope with the saccing BiP hero. Yes, Smite Monks deal damage while Smiting Hexes etc, but they don't actually have spot heals that also deal damage... Life or PwK aren't viable either: you can't time Life and PwK is just once every 30 sec, and you don't really want to waste it on a single sac. No, what you need is an additional spot heal or two and extra attention from the healer.
In the end, do you even need BiP? Do your heroes suffer from energy shortages without it? And if so, can't you just switch one non-elite skill on that hero for an energy management skill instead of slotting BiP somewhere?
The Josip
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Originally Posted by LexTalionis
Arcane Conundrum is actually pretty useless skill overall. Illusion hero will half of the time use it on his own target (which is going to be some physical) even with casters present. At other times he will cast it just before someone is about to die. Or, he will cast it on a single targets which will cause him to lose energy, not gain, which is especially problematic when that target is physical. Casting Conundrum on enemy casters also has limited effect at least in my team build (no Panic). Spells which cast fast will still cast too fast in HM for player (or even hero) to interrupt them. Marginal improvement only in gray area.
You may barely break even with this skill. It's not worth it.
Quote: Originally Posted by bhavv Obviously it cant be a vanq as there are too many problems with finding the last few enemies. Only in few Prophecy areas with huge patrol perimeter (e.g. Arid Sea). Besides, these lasts few enemies show the significance of Fall Back chain in non-elite areas (it's what I tried to point out earlier, and one of the reasons why Jaydra said she likes Eles more than Mesmers, which again is true except in my case where I run BiP so can afford mesmers to run FB).
That being said, IMO one player should do both BiP and non BiP instead of two players competing, in order to eliminate skill difference. I'm not really interested in this competition as my pro-BiP stance goes beyond time completion (it means I as a caster can play the game more as energy constrains me less), and also rests on a mathematical calculation which should have basis in practice. I don't yet have optimized BiP team build especially since I spend more time tweaking mesmer heroes.
Quote: Originally Posted by HigherMinion But I thought the point was so you could bring more damage and kill faster... How does BiP actually benefit your team? The problem is that none of the anti-BiP people actually are mesmer primary, which makes it difficult to explain things.
1. Player can do much more damage than a hero. In theory. A mesmer player can take e-management such as AIncantation which gives roughly +1e per second. It costs a skill slot, attribute points, and casting time.
2. BiP at low spec does +5 e regeneration. This is the equivalent of a caster with e-management. And this in case that BiPer only casts 1 BiP per 12 seconds.
In theory, BiP is powerful. In practice, it doesn't necessarily mean your team will be better off with it.
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Originally Posted by Daesu
To call BiP blindingly obviously a good skill is a little short-sighted I think.
Sure, +5 energy regeneration is good, we can all agree on that.
But what do you actually gain and do you need it?
You arguably free up 2 slots on domination mesmers, although I think it's very debatable whether you really want to drop all energy management. What do you use for these 2 slots that improves their damage output? Most hard-hitting skills are already on the bar. I didn't call BiP blindingly obviously good. But bhaav implied it was blindingly obviously bad.
What skills improve Dom Mes damage output -> Power Spike, Shatter Delusions, Signet of Disruption, Overload, etc etc etc.
You could have the same player run the different builds twice, but it doesn't eliminate player bias ... or stop people from running bad builds where BiP makes less of a difference (like Thunderclap
). In this case though we're in luck, because I have Raisu Palace screenshots where I was pushing for max speed. When I get the time I'll run through Raisu again with BiP. I'm betting I'll get a time <8:30, but we'll see. If I do run through FoW - I'm not planning to, however, since it takes way more than 30 minutes - I bet I'll get a time less than 1 hour 28 minutes. bhaav's build doesn't have double Fall Back, which curiously enough by his definition of effectiveness makes it ineffective.
Funnily enough I don't plan on using BiP to support Mesmers ...
@Essence Snow - multiple aggro and DoA Titan spawns pop to mind. With ~40 max energy you can burn dry in less than a minute too. Turn the question around: what mobs are ya'll facing that live long enough to need the added e management that pdrain gives?
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Originally Posted by Dzjuzd
Sure, +5 energy regeneration is good, we can all agree on that.
I need BiP. The question is, do you need BiP? Probably not. The reason why I use BiP is need for energy. If you don't have the need, you won't look into BiP as one of the possible solutions. Even if I decide that BiP is not worthy, the need for energy remains, and I will keep looking into other skills.
But what do you actually gain and do you need it? You arguably free up 2 slots on domination mesmers, although I think it's very debatable whether you really want to drop all energy management. What do you use for these 2 slots that improves their damage output? Most hard-hitting skills are already on the bar. By dropping PD and WNWN I spec into Command and take FallBack, hard rez, and SYG/Never Surrender/ or what I'm experimenting with right now: Bladeturn Refrain (I could use opinion whether that skill is worth it if it can be kept up indefinitely; good side is also that it's one-time-cast, so it saves my mesmer from having to use energy on that anymore except if someone dies). My hero is now able to use Command shield (r9) for full armor bonus (I used 40/40 before but I've changed my mind about the overall usefulness of that mod for mesmers). Instead of having mediocre conditional e-management I now have 3 higher-armored heroes with bar compression that covers all needed rez (might tweak more and remove some rezes from mesmers but it depends on other team members), chain Fall Back, and additional utility that requires no casting time. The rest of Illusion bar is standard, minus Arcane Conundrum (but still with APain). The rest of Domination is E-Surge-Unnatural-Mistrust-Spiritual (Spiritual is arguable, but it really helps cleaning stragglers and for bar compression), and one wildcard that I use for testing the effectiveness of other skills (Empathy, Overload, extra copies of CoF, Shatter Hex..). It's important to note that their Domination bar depends on my own. Right now I arcane echo Mistrust and use it as an opening move, followed usually by CoP, followed by echoed Mistrust, and somewhere here I cast CoF when needed. Right now this seems to be more powerful than AP build, provided that mobs are not always scattered. Quote:
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This is a rather incorrect assumption. Very few mobs last long enough in FoW for me for Bip / energy management to make any difference in the space of a single battle. HOWEVER no one wants to stand around in between mobs waiting for their energy to refill. You kill one, and go straight to the next, your heroes are not going to have much time to refill their energy without E management unless they are necros.
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@bhavv: I don't think your choice of prots are good even though you have lots of red barring. With enough prots, you can make do with fewer red barring skills. As an example, I had only 2 half healers but I had fewer deaths when I cleared foundry, than you had in FoW.
I suggest that you replace your Protective Spirit with a Dwaynaway's ST rit (http://www.gwpvx.com/User:Nanashi), and make one of your mesmers a /P with SYG, given your team setup. Should be easy for you to fix that since you have mercs. Prot Spirit alone, or Prot Bond has been fine for me in FoW. I'm using a Fiery Sunspear and Serrated Shield on each hero that gives +15 armor against physicals, and my blind is AoEd by using fevered dreams. I cant drop the signet mesmer because thats actually my primary source of spammable armor ignoring AoE. The signet mesmer actually can carry prot bond and I could put that on myself and the bip, but this will require manual casting which would slow me down and make the comparisons unfair. I normally play an E/Mo protter in places where I need more protection, but FoW doesnt.
FoW is a lot easier than other elite areas, it doesnt need a prot elly or a ST rit to easily complete, and running a prot elly all the time feels too tiring, I want a nice a simple build like Invoke or Thunderclap now.
I suggest that you replace your Protective Spirit with a Dwaynaway's ST rit (http://www.gwpvx.com/User:Nanashi), and make one of your mesmers a /P with SYG, given your team setup. Should be easy for you to fix that since you have mercs. Prot Spirit alone, or Prot Bond has been fine for me in FoW. I'm using a Fiery Sunspear and Serrated Shield on each hero that gives +15 armor against physicals, and my blind is AoEd by using fevered dreams. I cant drop the signet mesmer because thats actually my primary source of spammable armor ignoring AoE. The signet mesmer actually can carry prot bond and I could put that on myself and the bip, but this will require manual casting which would slow me down and make the comparisons unfair. I normally play an E/Mo protter in places where I need more protection, but FoW doesnt.
FoW is a lot easier than other elite areas, it doesnt need a prot elly or a ST rit to easily complete, and running a prot elly all the time feels too tiring, I want a nice a simple build like Invoke or Thunderclap now.
Jeydra
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzjudz
Sure, +5 energy regeneration is good, we can all agree on that.
But what do you actually gain and do you need it?
You arguably free up 2 slots on domination mesmers, although I think it's very debatable whether you really want to drop all energy management. What do you use for these 2 slots that improves their damage output? Most hard-hitting skills are already on the bar. I didn't call BiP blindingly obviously good. But bhaav implied it was blindingly obviously bad.
What skills improve Dom Mes damage output -> Power Spike, Shatter Delusions, Signet of Disruption, Overload, etc etc etc.
You could have the same player run the different builds twice, but it doesn't eliminate player bias ... or stop people from running bad builds where BiP makes less of a difference (like Thunderclap
). In this case though we're in luck, because I have Raisu Palace screenshots where I was pushing for max speed. When I get the time I'll run through Raisu again with BiP. I'm betting I'll get a time <8:30, but we'll see. If I do run through FoW - I'm not planning to, however, since it takes way more than 30 minutes - I bet I'll get a time less than 1 hour 28 minutes. bhaav's build doesn't have double Fall Back, which curiously enough by his definition of effectiveness makes it ineffective.Funnily enough I don't plan on using BiP to support Mesmers ...
@Essence Snow - multiple aggro and DoA Titan spawns pop to mind. With ~40 max energy you can burn dry in less than a minute too. Turn the question around: what mobs are ya'll facing that live long enough to need the added e management that pdrain gives?
Golgotha
Tried to get a little goofy with a Keystone Mesmer today with the intention of a Signet of Pious Restraint and a low recharge Derv enchantment for constant cripple on top of the usual Keystone goodies. Of course, the hero would cast the signet first, enchantment after most of the time. I'll try some other enchantment combos.
). Screenshot available on request.
Jeydra
Thunderclap is a bad skill. I don't recall seeing it the PvP meta except (vaguely) a few times in HA, and it never took hold. Weak skill. If you wanted Dazed in PvP anyway you'd take BHA. Even if you didn't want to use PvE skills, you have better options: Invoke, SF, Earth Magic. List goes on.
As for ER, you can use ER quite effectively, but heroes function significantly worse without the player to coordinate them. You don't have much to gain by running ER anyway. Sure you can heal the entire team, but then again I've been running around with 2 semi-healers (both with damage) and that works out perfectly, so why bother? It's not a matter of not doing difficult content either. 2 semi-healers CAN get through Foundry HM, although it's very much of a knife-edge.
@Lanier - yes Panic is overrated but compared to Thunderclap it's godlike.
Regarding BiP, I've come to decide I won't be using it. It's not a bad skill, but if you use BiP you also have to reshuffle your heroes each time you do the areas where you can only bring 4/6 characters (since in those areas the first character I drop is the BiP). I'm lazy, so BiP's not for me.
As for ER, you can use ER quite effectively, but heroes function significantly worse without the player to coordinate them. You don't have much to gain by running ER anyway. Sure you can heal the entire team, but then again I've been running around with 2 semi-healers (both with damage) and that works out perfectly, so why bother? It's not a matter of not doing difficult content either. 2 semi-healers CAN get through Foundry HM, although it's very much of a knife-edge.
@Lanier - yes Panic is overrated but compared to Thunderclap it's godlike.
Regarding BiP, I've come to decide I won't be using it. It's not a bad skill, but if you use BiP you also have to reshuffle your heroes each time you do the areas where you can only bring 4/6 characters (since in those areas the first character I drop is the BiP). I'm lazy, so BiP's not for me.
The Josip
BTW LexTalionis - I think you should keep updating the first post, regarding the mesmer hero AI. It would be much easier than people having to check every post here.
Another update - heroes use Guilt on everything. Including physicals.
Another update - heroes use Guilt on everything. Including physicals.
Plutoman
At some point I want to start a thread about creating an good team (the theory and mechanics of what makes a good team build, and explore various decisions to make), and explore the various hero options for damage. This'll be a good thread to link too. But when that'll happen depends on how soon I get back to GW, I've been playing Oblivion a tad too much lately.
There's a lot of solid information in this thread, a lot of petty bickering, a lot of good debating, and more random information. Lex made a really good overview on mesmers, it's a lot of quality information in his first post.
There's a lot of solid information in this thread, a lot of petty bickering, a lot of good debating, and more random information. Lex made a really good overview on mesmers, it's a lot of quality information in his first post.
LexTalionis
Sorry sirs, I've been taking a break from the forums as promised to take care of RL issues. I'll update the first post with the information you've provided while I'm free.
I don't mind if you repost anything I wrote or consolidate it into another thread (the Hero AI one?) or anything; the thread got a little off-topic halfway through, and it might not be the easiest thing to read through.
I don't mind if you repost anything I wrote or consolidate it into another thread (the Hero AI one?) or anything; the thread got a little off-topic halfway through, and it might not be the easiest thing to read through.
Jeydra
Premium Unleaded
Question re: overload since it isn't clear in the OP -
Do heroes still use it when target is currently hexed with it already? ie. AI still classifies it as only "interrupt-type" usage, and not "hex-type (so doesn't maintain/stack) + interrupt-type".
Do heroes still use it when target is currently hexed with it already? ie. AI still classifies it as only "interrupt-type" usage, and not "hex-type (so doesn't maintain/stack) + interrupt-type".
LexTalionis
@Premium Unleaded:
Sorry for the late reply - I've been moving house between countries and haven't had much time to play Guild Wars.
No, they won't. I've tested this on the Master of Hexes (he casts a lot) in the Island of the nameless. Nonstacking Hex AI priority always takes precedence. That's one of the reasons why I use Shatter Delusions and Drain Delusions, but it's at most a minor annoyance since the hex only lasts for 5 seconds.
Sorry for the late reply - I've been moving house between countries and haven't had much time to play Guild Wars.
No, they won't. I've tested this on the Master of Hexes (he casts a lot) in the Island of the nameless. Nonstacking Hex AI priority always takes precedence. That's one of the reasons why I use Shatter Delusions and Drain Delusions, but it's at most a minor annoyance since the hex only lasts for 5 seconds.
AndrewSX
So, in other words, Overload can be safely used as feeder hex for Shatter-Drain delusion (and all skill that benefit from mes hex like unnatural sig).
But it's from the domination line: there are other skill that words good for that purpose in Illusion for example? (thinking to Frag and Calculated mainly).
But it's from the domination line: there are other skill that words good for that purpose in Illusion for example? (thinking to Frag and Calculated mainly).
LexTalionis
Yes, but no practical hexes with obvious synergy other than Arcane Conundrum. If you're playing a mesmer yourself, try Web of Disruption (unless you're okay with heroes not actually interrupting anything with it). If you don't care about the lack of synergy, just about anything works. Go with Shared Burden or something.
Since Shatter Delusions is in Domination magic itself (full of great feeders like Panic, Enchanter's Conundrum and Overload), there's little reason to actually use an Illusion magic feeder hex. If you just need fodder for drain delusions, but can't afford a Domination mesmer, just stick with Arcane Conundrum or shrinking armor/phantom pain. Having a hex with a shorter cooldown than Drain Delusions isn't really going to help a lot. Don't bother with the burdens, the 15e cast creates issues with hero AI pretty often.
Since Shatter Delusions is in Domination magic itself (full of great feeders like Panic, Enchanter's Conundrum and Overload), there's little reason to actually use an Illusion magic feeder hex. If you just need fodder for drain delusions, but can't afford a Domination mesmer, just stick with Arcane Conundrum or shrinking armor/phantom pain. Having a hex with a shorter cooldown than Drain Delusions isn't really going to help a lot. Don't bother with the burdens, the 15e cast creates issues with hero AI pretty often.