another solution to pvp elitism in a not league/matchmaking way

this problem of pvp elitism is ALWAYS an arguement for pve to blame pvp is too much of elite for them to play

1) they can't join without rank / rank group do not pick the one without rank
2) always lose with random group
3) do not understand maps
4) etc etc.....and goes in circle.. that makes pve loath PVP in many ways

there are many suggestions that have been made, such as
1) giving higher reward in pvp
2) matching making/ league systems
3) teach groups etc...

but what I feel all these will not make pver plays pvp much more...because they simply are just not competitive enough in pvp due to the fact the current pve play is not encouraged in a way to train a pver into a pvper, the transitioning from pve to pvp is too large, this can illustrated by

1) the heroes
2) pve skills/consumables
3) little maps in pve have the layout the maps of pvp
4) the objective in pve is not the same in pvp
5) the HOM grind system
6) the AI mob pulling
7) etc..

these are all the examples that something you cannot find in pvp but all in pve.

so what I feel is trying to put rewards/mm/league in pvp is not going to be any better.. I find that training the pver in the pve area into more competitive in pvp is a better solution to all these elitism argument
such as

1) puting rewards in pve if they do not use heroes, pve skill, and consumables altogether this can train them into party forming in pvp, so as to use pvp skills, and without the use of consumable in the pve area, to make them feel the way in pvp is actually more related to pve if they play it in the pvp way

2) putting more rewards on pve maps that are similar to pvp....such as the desert map in prophecies, give the pver extra higher rewards if they play it without the use heroes/pve/consumable

3) HOM system, is a way to gw2, but many has already suggested to put more pvp achievement into it.. but does not encourage pver to become more pvp.. because they are just not competitive to play in pvp yet, on the other hand.. encourage pvp playing style in pve area, making another statue or title of pvp play in pve area for them may encourage them to be more competitive..

4) the AI mob factor allowing pver to pull them is a spoiler to pver to become more competitive in pvp, the positioning of tanking with warrior, or other kind of tanks, will NEVER happen in pvp... this hardly helps pve to become more competitive in pvp.. and breaks what pve should be learning in pvp.....therefore I suggest anet to train the AI to not able to be tanked like that, making monster stronger is not enough as already demonstrated in HM patch, perhaps making the mob unable to be body blocked may help.

5) and all these suggestion can be made like by putting an option like HM, that when you use press that pvp in pve button, you are not allowed to use heroes,consumables, pve skill, but gets double, rewards, maybe triple rewards for the leader of the group or something you don't get in the normal pve playing way if necessary..

these all suggestion perhaps may able to train pver to learn more about pvp in their pve maps, and make the transition to pvp not as difficult...so as to pick up their competitiveness faster....but doesn't affect the current heroes/usage/normal playing in the pve...

1. This wouldn't solve elitism. There will never be an update to GW that can solve elitism, as everybody (everybody) is an elitist. It doesn't matter how easy or difficult it is to switch from PvE to PvP; when you're experienced enough to start on GvG or HA, people will still want to see your rank. Similarly, when you're experienced enough in PvE and know enough, you can't start UWsc because people will wan't to see how many stones you have. Elitism is, more or less, a "trait" all humans have.

2. What rewards are you thinking of for PvE. After all, before the introduction of NF, there were no heroes or PvE-only skills, and many consumables hadn't come into play yet. People still beat the game. People still beat high end areas, and nobody needed extra enticement to do such.

3. A "PvP in PvE button" shouldn't come into play. HM should be made harder, or in some cases, it should actually come to the point of being hard, through updating the A.I.

4. If somebody wants to start PvP, the best thing to do is start small, in AB or JQ or FA, and then move on into RA, then into higher end material. Replicating PvP in PvE is something the Live team will never do, as they are working on other things.

Again, elitism can't be solved through an update.

The problem with PvP is both 1) titles, and 2) randomness

What needs to be done is make GvG have epicness rewards and make people WANT those rewards, even those currently in PvE.

1) Titles are flawed, anyone can earn a title, even if they are bad, and PvP shouldn't be based on flawed titles or titles that take forever to grind. Titles need to become 10x more common, they shouldn't take 2 years to grind one PvP title. Titles need to take a hike.

2) Randomness, there is where you need to build GUILDS so people play with GUILDIES AND FRIENDS, not randomness so when they lose or something goes wrong they start being elite and throwing out blames etc. If you fix guilds, make lots of people want to GvG, you will fix other formats of PvP to be played with friends like Codex, HA.

Now... RA is so simple and quick to get into, this is where everyone goes and has the most problems because it's random and not friend based... it should be like team areans, another built in format. If you want to play quick games, go play FA, JQ, or AB.

But yeah, if you fix guilds and have everyone joining guilds to PvP and even getting all the PvE guilds who do their own PvP on the side, this will introduce PvP to new players and get people PvPing with friends or guildies where you don't have to listen to all this elitism BS. It's all about the foundation of the game.

I see the game as dying, dead, but even with the amount of players there is... it can be picked up by giving people a reason too.

A "simple" fix would be to add ELO. Each account has an ELO, and from this ELO, one would be allocated into a certain "tier."

Groups would then take the average "tier" of the team (or something) and would only be matched against others of the same tier (and/or if they were ranked pretty high in their tier, they may face lower-ranked players in a higher tier.)

Not only does this make /rank meaningless (as it is more a representation of how much one plays, not necessarily how well one plays,), but it also allows for "newer players" to get in and play as it allocates them against players of a similar "skill range."

It would probably take longer to get matches going (especially with the number of active players in HA,) and would require a few different "tiers" of the HoH.

Problem is, there are only two tiers. Inexperienced and experienced. No middle ground, therefore, transition into the higher tier is incredibly difficult.

The only way to "fix" organized team formats is to make the game easier to play.

these all are very true if you ask me again the transition from pve to pvp

pve--> fa--->jq--->ra--->ab--->ca--->hoh--->gvg--->pvp

the pvp population is too wide spread

fa till ab have enough players but they are the lower form of competitiveness of pvp

ca is the middle and

hoh-->gvg is the highest of pvp

the population in ca till hoh, which is the middle form of pvp are little ....and there are a few top groups in gvg.. that are competitive.....

I don't know whether dumbing down making the game easier is a good choice, because as a higher form, you need that dynamics to make the game competitive and interesting, to be distinctive in the market......and whether a game is easy or not is very subjective.....

I would rather try to shorten the time for new players to be competitive by using what is in the existing and encouraging them to prepare in a higher form of pvp.. than dumbing down the existing format...

sometimes if the pvp lost such dynamics, it goes stale really fast..and player will demand for a deeper pvp experience, like from c spacing to a point where you can capture points.

I think giving more different types of pvp titles, can be a solution to reduce such ambivalence of a single type of pvp rank elitism.....like giving rank in fa/jq/ab/skillz/pvp in pve..etc...... it can help elite to see, and let "non-elite" to show that they have a bit of pvp experience, than jumping directly from pve.

in a way turning this into a pseudo-elo system...using different form of pvp from low to high to classify their ability..

I don't think any of you would like my fix to the PvP problem. Simply make PvP go away, and hopefully it will take most consumables and heros with it.

Let the flaming begin.

but gw has a good pvp system, that other game doesn't really have this layout of different format from low to high all in one game...

when you are playing pve.. you are also playing pvp... but just as a very very small scale in comparison to gvg, because you are learning how to use 8 skills.

so I don't understand if you are saying make pvp go away.. does it mean not playing gw at all??

That's here you make the mistake... Learning how to use 8 skills in PvE is diferent than in PvP because you more likely wanna mash all in order to deal the most damage, whereas in organized PvP, you will prefer to find the synergy in the team...

( Well ok, today it's also about buttonmashing in PvP but w/e.....)

I wouldn't say overall that it's skills OPness and stuff fault, but more likely the way PvP was designed, which lead to terrible because of no updates...

1- There are too many formats for a dead game, but the problem is that you can't know how many players are in one format... I'm pretty sure people would all go to the same place if they knew....

2- Most active formats are only about killing whereas competitive formats( GvG.. i could also include HB) are about splitting/capping and killing.... where do you learn those skills today when you waste your time in RA spamming invoke or using 123 on sin/dervish?

3- Codex could have put everyone on the same level the way it was designed. However, 0 update means 0 players.

4- Not enough competitiveness easy to access.... HB was too easy to enter and GvG is too hard.... linked to point 3, CA tournaments would have been cool...

5- the biggest problem in my opinion : the reward... Basically, it has turned into :
- the reward is crap i won't do this format
- the reward is good, let's go farm dead hours and abuse poor players
And i can't think of anyway to reverse it to be honest....

6- PvP anyway doesn't get enough care and won't be fixed in my opinion, if it doesn't concern GvG( check forums, number of views for serious threads and number of views for anything related to PvE-- don't take this as offense since it's not my intention)


The only way to make a better access would be, at the point of the game, to make a permanent Costume Brawl Arena so that people learn how to play a given bar( which isn't too OP), learn splitting and tactics,...

You sound like buttonmashing in PvP is something that has not existed for five years.

The biggest problem in my opinion is that PvP and PvE doesn't need eachother and both formats are actually two different games.

The only solution would be to change both PvP and PvE in such a way that both have to work together.

Or you could give new PvE characters a +20 armor bonus, which is reduced by 1 for every win. Like a handicap.

Button mashing in pve ?
Omg is everyone running something like sabway/discordway ?
Pve gives us the chance to use what builds we want , join or not join teams , use heros instead of players but in pvp you dont always get given a choice of builds as teams want a set build and profession in - tho exceptions are speedclears and often elite areas but usually its for a reason ( like not taking a 55 monk in the team ).
Heck ive even been in guild teams that are so unbalenced ( in the way of no team synergy and just any professions thrown in for fun ) any normal players would lol at the team.
The actual problem is a simple thing - alot of veterans and good players dont want to teach players and thus making the split even wider.On one hand they want gd players etc and other hand they dont want to teach which eventually means the amount of good players dwindle and those wanting to learn cannot.
I was always told - if you want to achieve something then get off your rear end and do it even if it means spending time teaching players who may in time actually be an asset to use in different things be it pve elite dungeons/zones to doing ab/ra/gvg.

this is what happens when you make pvp optional.

wtb: world pvp and ganking.

Then how did the good players get good? Obviously there is another way.

You guys are talking about PvP and the difficulty to play with other random people, that is the biggest problem to short and compeitive games like areans, HA, etc.

When you look at longer games that are random (FA and JQ) where you get on random teams with many people it's not really an issue.

The smaller and more compeitive places is where people are fusterated and angry at the pvp system.

The best way to fix it is by fixing it's how it works and that would be WHO you play with and how to get started. By making something extremely popular like GvG and give amazing rewards or cool armor sets (earned only from let's say how far up the ladder you are - to avoid people joining guilds to get the armor(like the gold capes) all you need to do is implement a system where your character would have to contribute so much or something along the lines, it would have to be reformatted obviously) or something else would get PvE players to want to get into PvP too. By making PvP just as popular as PvE you get everyone in GUILDS (who have friends etc.) that would PvP on a regular basis when asked. Then you don't need to deal with all this randomness crap that's irritating everyone like lack of players, title ranks, random groups, playing with bad players etc.

It's all about the structure. World of Warcraft has a good example of this. You have "Battlegrounds" which you can do random or with friends which is similar to FA and JQ. The only differance is "pre-made" groups get queued up with other pre-made groups, assuming PvP was that popular they could split the two groups. Then you have the guild mates who do Arena's together. It all forms around guilds or being a newbie in a guild and making friends.

If you want lots more players, and less irritating system. You need to give people a GREAT reward system and structure things around Guilds, not solo play or playing with randoms. The game is so dead it needs some motivation by ANET.

reward is arbitrary to the solution, players don't necessary like the reward, strongbox is the example

even you get all people in the guild, there will still be the elitism problem....because I agree to the post someone suggested that everyone is an elite...

and I can firmly say that nobody will teach any new player how to play pvp.. because the teacher himself is not competitive enough.....there is no qualification required to be a teacher...

and how can you make pvp popular as pve.. they are so different that the gameplay of 2 extremes are so wide in gw.....

The elite-ism isn't restricted to pvp its in pve too in fact any game where players team up has the same problem its just more blatant in GW.

Pugs are part of the problem and mixing everyone into the same area is the other part.

The pvp game should force players and teams that win a certain number of games to move up a tier leaving that area to those still trying to learn.
I do not know if it could be achieved in the current game but they should try.
It might work if the tier you play in depended on a pvp title track.

I cannot think of a negative aspect to the idea, we all start off bad at pvp those who learn the ropes fastest win more often and are then removed from the pool and forced to compete against each other away from the newbies.

Win a few more and your moved up again and so on, very experienced players would never get an easy match against newbies so if that is considered bad then tough get used to it.

points that I want to add is to encourage "move on" to a higher tier pvp..

say for example.. you don't need to finish whole pve things to move on to fa then play 10000 fa games to move on to ra... then play another 100000 ra games to move on to ca.. then another 1000000 games to HA etc.. go on

these all should be done by a less grinding structure in the lower form of pvp to earn such a title.. so that those player can move on to a higher form of pvp faster.....

sometimes I feel that gladiator 4 is already enough to be in ca....you don't need to be a g12..but in ha you may need a g8-9 or a codex 4-5 as a min requirement...

however player just do not move on from this format due to the fact that they need to grind them...

so....encourage competitive plays in pve, + adding more pvp titles + reducing grinding in lower form of pvp to encourage player to move on to higher form pvp ... can be done easily by anet to make the higher form of pvp more populate perhaps?

I think the whole eliteism problem can be solved by looking at why people are so selective.... PvP is a reward focused format... and to get those rewards are based on wins... people don't want to take you if they have the slightest feeling you might screw them... just like in UWSC... its not about the fun of the format or participation... the focus is rewards.

If you want to draw more players in AND keep rewards... you need to reward something more common than wins... IE titles of repective pvp formats should be based on kills, caps, or whatever action u need to perform to win the format.. that way you can have players gain rank and you can still have your win based rewards such as strong boxes and HoM chests that are purley astetic in nature...

This wont completely stave off elietism but atleast you give players a means to rank up even if they are losing... there getting some credit for attempting to learn.

faction in itself is quite rewarding...but people usually overlook, and there is nothing more..

It is over looked because faction can't help you get into a pvp group.... and you only get significant amounts for wins. Maybe in guild wars 2 they will make a comprehensive pvp title based on something simular to balth faction... but its already to late for this in gw1...

Let's say old iway and bspike come nowhere close to actual triple derv or invoke spike... nowhere really....

Well I've only pvped maybe just a handful of times in the 5+ years that I've been playing GW, and I didn't have good experiences,so I never went back,but what if we had like some kind of a practice mode within your guild/alliance in your Hall, kinda like the DANGER ROOM in X-Men where simulated elite gvg, RA etc.. you go up against, and you can set level or work your way up to certain level from training to Hell Mode, then after Training for awhile you can go try the real PvP. just an idea maybe stupid but I'm noob at PvP.

And when they were tied together Americans were on their hind legs because Europe held the Favor almost exclusively.


Man I miss that QQ.

Personally I don't think there is anything Anet can do to make PvP more enticing to either new or old players wanting to get back into PvP'ing.

I've given up doing high end PvP until GW2 comes out.

Like cataphract I miss the good old days sitting in TOA watching the QQ over who has 'favor' and getting excited when the Americans started to win lmao

The only solution to remove elitism would be to remove the rank system, but its never going to happen at this stage, after people spend years building their ranks.

At this point the only way i see for a PVE player to join the a high end PvP format is:

1- make their own group of 8, steady and constant team of friends who are playing in the same time, all willing to do the transmision, learn and try again and again.

2- Somehow meet a PvP player that would be able to get them into a PvP guild. That player should have enough influence in the guild to actually persuade them to teach the new guy and accept him in the guild. The problem is that most people who are serious about PvP would not hang out in places where PVE or lower grade PvP players do


Another thing that could be done is Enable a personal title system, that would allow a player to type in his title "looking for PvP Guild" or "new PvP guild looking for player" , and perhaps get noticed by someone in the lower range PvP arenas. Example would be someone from a GVG guild who sees a player with such title in CA and sees him in action later. Make that title a different color one (to not mix up with people displaying ranks and diffrent titles)?

GW pvp community could benefit from a gank type arena i think. IMO a new format could be implimented, something like a hunters arena.

It could be a huge and complex map taken directly from PVE (like one of the maguma jungle maps maybe) or even 2 big maps merged together, and make it a ganking arena.

put in some pve mid-difficulty mobs with a chance for some epic EXCLUSIVE to that format stuff that could go for a title (like a weapon that can be dsplayed in HOM or some un-tradable between accounts exchange tickets for something) and make it so you go in with 3 people, and 8 teams of 3-4 go in per map. Also, no reward for afk! If your team didn't get any kills or drops from mobs you get 0.

The map should be big enough for the players to have to search for opponents (or your own team if you die) and allow only a small amount of deaths per team (like 3 death each person), and there could be a rotation of several maps.

It would not draw allot of resources, it would basically have the programming of the Factions arenas, but a much much bigger area that does draw all attention to 1 location, and allow more teams in. All the teams would be hostile to each other. It would also not require additional design, just take one of the huge maps in prophecies in a place where people don't go to anymore (Jungle?) and some random mob from the game that would fit the requirement.

I think it would add some new dynamics into the gameplay, maybe new strategies and some excitment. Perhaps it could also draw in the PVE crowd?

I can't believe people actually still believe this.

I started playing when GW came out, 3 years solid, a year of poping in once a week, and 2 year solid break. Been back now for like, a week.

I still read the exact same shouts in HA, only the build names changed. Deny it all you want but its the reality, most PVE players with no rank are either auto turned down or dont even try because they know 90% of groups will not take them. Past experiences on both sides.

actually I feel gw2 will have something similar to what current gw would have..

the population and elitism...
you see any pvp games, will have elitism nature...even lol/hon/dota/wc3/sc2/sc/ whatsoever....

elitism is only a term that pve gives to pvp....

pvp themselves seldom give pvp a elitism, because they are already part of them.

and in gw2 pvp, wvww.... I heard it last for 2 weeks... it actually is an obstacle for player to join the game, if he does not have that 2 weeks to expends...as you know there must be someone willing stay there for 2 whole week, making them elite, and some may just meh play for 1 or 2 hours within the whole week...make them newbie type...... then the whole elite vs newbie will come out again

It's a symptom, not a cause.

-Yes, elitism will be a problem to those trying to play WITH randoms who don't care about you, and if you have lots of friends or guildies to play with you don't need to play with elitism or around them. Elitism will always exist so what's your point?

-Are you being arrogant minded? Hell.. if I had lots of guildies or friends to play with I'd teach or explain how to do things to people so I would have more inner circle people to play with, with no problem and so would 1000's of others, it's better to play with people you know than random people, you should try to play other MMO's before you try to say something like that... It's 1000x easier to do things over voice chat then a chat box while in a event.

-They are, but giving PvE rewards in PvP would motivate them to play obviously, having really sweet armor sets rewarded to players for GvG Ladder rank would get lots of guilds and PvP players wanting to join in. Strongboxes are a crappy reward, the chances of getting rich off one is so slim to try for. Only good to SELL and therefore you might as well farm Ectos' eh? Bad reward honestly, that's only a bonus to people who want to actually PvP, it doesn't bring people to PvP lol.

Either way... I know how things work, I've played many MMORPG's and it's all about the structure and what there is to offer. As far as I can tell PvP dosn't offer PvE anything so those who play the game to PvE(pretty much what 99.9% of ppl do when they buy the game) probably won't get into PvP much when they love PvE.

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It's true, it would make things more guild based and random. When you go to places like RA people are asking for rank titles just to get into a group, honestly it's ridicious. Titles are a bad mistake because most of the PvP places ease at the moment is playing with random groups because guilds are dead in general and so is most of the PvP population.

there is no any kind of reward can be justified in pvp.. because how hard to get the reward is various upon what opponent you will face... it is not like you kill dhumm to get the scythe in pve that every time the difficuty is the same....

so when you put good armour set in pvp...someone will think wow .. it is easy to get that armour so I play pvp, and he will consider that is a good reward....and someone will never able to get the armour because every time they play pvp they get stomped, and will always consider that is a bad reward to get in pvp because is too hard..

so how do you say what reward is good or what reward is bad.....something you think is good, may be bad to other..

the reward in pvp is the pvp itself, that you can vs other.. not what any pve reward you can get...

and, if you have a lot of guildies and friends, you will teach them.. but there is not enough of "you" or someone like you making a lot of guildies and friends in gw.. to make pvp populated.....

you see, that's not true.
codex arena requires a much higher understanding of the game, of how skills interact between each other and how team builds synergize between each other. there is no pvx wiki to check for builds, and if you wish to be successful start on you cant wait until a meta forms and copy it and still lose to those who have been running the build for 20+ matches.

HA, on the other hand, requires far less game understanding as well as a far lower skill level, simply because there's more people to make up for one's mistakes. and because ha is MUCH more like pve than codex is (ganks, anything with aoe farming balls at altars).

so yes, ca does need a fairly exped player, so that can go up to g9+ (ex g8), while HA will easily be doable with someone that can follow orders properly and nuke ball-ups. what's more important about codex is you not only need to have a proper game understanding, but also need to be an all-rounded player, because playing your favourite profession (as the grand majority of players chooses to do) can often be a horrid decision it because the skills available are too horrible for that class to be considered.

as anet realised and will implement in gw2, competitive pvp will have everything unlocked start-on. little reason why not do the same for gw.

and all the elitism care bears around here...spare us the whine how pvp is filled with elitism. where there's a will there's a way. if there's little to no will, then there's only guru complaining left. most start from 0 (or at least thats how it usually went) and play their way up, not post-complain their way up.

and for the record, pve often has its share of 'elitists' (which is often even bigger than in pvp) and it is absolutely retarded how you're considered 'less' because you dont have this or that specific high end armor or weapon set, or because you aren't part of a high-end pve guild (read: despite having a good understanding of the game as well as your character, so despite being a good player) because of the above (and because you aren't buttbuddies with some of the members). i had a nice demonstration of that in lotro aka legion of total retards online.

Our difference is on what I think managing people is so much harder than managing skill bars.

and I feel ha is harder and required higher skill level than ca solely because you have to manage 8 players but disregarding the skill bars ,which mostly the current skill bars are based on meta, I think once the meta shift faster, and hopefully more fluxes affecting the meta, ha will always be more competitive than ca in all sense because there are 8 players.

if ha is tuned down back to like team arena 4v4.. obviously ca will be harder and required much higher level of skill...because the extra ability as a player to decide build is required more in ca...

you see that all the pve elitism is about managing people instead of the skill bar...because people is harder to be managed than the skill bar...especially in all those pve 8 players elite areas, or even the deep/urgoz, 12 players...it is not really so much on what you have to bring or what is on your skill bar.. but more on the players themselves, that they won't rage quit/ afk/ fooling around/not using useful skills in the middle of the game that can destroy all efforts.

I like how you basicly call people complaining about pvp elitism QQ-ers then turn around and QQ about pve elitests and how retarted they are... why is it ok for pvp because if you don't have the "will" get over it... and for pve its retarted to require such things....? Those people started at 0 and worked thier way up... whats the difference?

you can swap "pve" and "pvp" and replace "armor" and "weapon" with "rank" and "emote" in your statement and you have the opposing arguments point...

its not ok in either, but its at least understandable why one prefers exped to non exped players in pvp.

do I REALLY have to name the reasons for that again?

nope, but from high end things like speed clears can use the same reasoning for discrimination as pvpers do.... that reason is that players don't want to lose efficency of earning rewards..... neither types of discrimination are very condusive to a healthy player population...

Pvp is more negitivly effected because it requires determiniates (rank) for all formats where player participation is required to earn those determiniates... So if you don't have rank you nobody will take you in to earn rank because you don't have the rank to determain your efficency.

The key difference with pve is that determiniates (armor, weapons, titles, stones) can be earned by means other than the discriminitory activity. Discrimination is equally as harsh on both sides but theres higher pve population because players have reasonable means to earn determinates outside of a discriminatory format. Which makes pve vastly more popular than most pvp formats.

After viewing suggestions on this fourm over the years... one should be able to conclude pvp titles are the direct cause of pvp inactivity. Removing titles all together is not a option given they been around for so long and it will upset people that have earned them... making them easier to get by rewarding something more common than wins.. like kills or completing pvp objectives... seens more feasable to me... even if a player is losing he is gaining rank WHILE learning, so he has something to show for his effort... not just perpetually stuck at r0 because he doesnt know a group willing to take him... an alternative would be to make a comprehensive pvp title... so that experiance from RA, CA, HA, and GvG can be used to determain experiance accross formats.

I realize that making titles related to kills and objectives would open it up to exploitation or create opinions that its to easy to earn... if thats the case you can always require wins for title points after X rank.

I like this too... perhaps including jq/fa/ab with a lessor percentage...

so more player will be able to enjoy pvp more if they like title grinding..