Elementalist #1: 12+4 Energy Storage, 12 Protection Prayers, 3 Healing Prayers.
Bar - Ether Renewal (e) - Aura of Restoration - Aegis - Spirit Bond - Protective Spirit - Convert Hexes - Shield of Absorption - Shielding Hands
A fairly standard E/Mo, Infuse is optional. I use Convert Hexes to stack hex removal, but it is entirely optional and Reversal of Fortune is a good substitute. He/she is oftentimes the most optional person in the team, but provides good single target protection and backup on the pressured teammates when shelter fails.
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Ritualist #1: 11+3 Spawning Power, 10+1 Communing, 10 Restoration.
Bar - Soul Twisting - Shelter - Armor of Unfeeling - Boon of Creation - Soothing Memories - Spirit Light - Protective Was Kaolai - Flesh of My Flesh
A healing ST bar, essentially. I keep the rez disabled typically. The runes aren't altogether picky, I use a major rune on SP, but I honestly should use a minor rune on Restoration. Shelter provides the spirit for the copies of Spirit Light on the team, and it can stay on full time generally.
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Necromancer #1: 10+2 Soul Reaping, 8 Blood Magic, 12 Restoration.
Bar - Blood is Power - Weapon of Warding - Mend Body and Soul - Spirit Light - Protective Was Kaolai - Rip Enchantment - Foul Feast - Flesh of My Flesh
This is my battery, and I run him with an enchanting Spear/Shield set, Herald's Insignia's, and vitae runes. He generally stays alive pretty well. Typically, only the mesmers need much in the way of energy, though the ST sometimes does, so he stays in the clear. He adds in major condition removal between MBaS and Foul Feast. I added in Rip Enchantment over Life, because in battle, you should always have Shelter up.
Edit: As mentioned later in the thread, I leave the rez disabled on this character. Rezzing mid-battle is usually inadvisable for the BiP. I disable the rez on the ST in a lot of areas, too, but that one isn't usually a problem.
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Monk #1: 12+3 Smiting, 12+2 Divine Favor.
Bar - Ray of Judgement - Reversal of Damage - Smite Condition - Smite Hex - Heaven's Delight - Divine Healing - Castigation Signet - Smiter's Boon
More damage, party heals (shelter and party heals goes well), and secondary healing, condition removal, and hex removal. I underestimated this bar when I first looked at it, but it packs a lot into a single package. No wonder Smiter's was nerfed in PvP.
Summary
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This is a defensive build that packs a punch, while having significant amounts of healing and protection. Therefore, it's used in more difficult areas, which is why I posted up a screen of the DoA. I can certainly say it doesn't need any more healing.
To use this for easier areas, there's one simple thing you can do - drop the E/Mo, run two healers, and either run 2 invoke ele's (dropping the smite monk), or two RoJ smiting monks. This of course, depends on the areas in question. For melee, I recommend the monks due to the addition of melee support. In addition, I would modify the ST Rit to splinter/AR/etc instead of healing, because the two monk's DF should more than cover the extra. I provided variants for those of you interested to look at.
For casters, it can go either way - if you need the condition/hex removal, take the monks - for more direct damage, take the Ele's. Again, there is variants to show how I intend it to be used.
This build is primarily intended towards any sort of spiking build, anything with the intent to dish out damage. It is not for someone to play healer with (exception is possibly the dual-invoke dillway), or protection, or even support, degen, and other types of play. I do not recommend a minion master build, though it can be supported quite well by any generic SoS build. Calling targets is not mandatory, but is generally well received, and pulling in elite areas is still necessary at times. No other micro is needed, though I do stick Shared Burden on a hotkey in case I want to have it on a healer. It takes fairly little skill to manage this team.
I welcome any input, questions, criticism, and ideas, as long as they are worded politely. Obviously, I put a lot of effort into this, and I've been playing with this idea for a while - I would appreciate some respect towards that work when given criticism.
18 Aug 2011 at 05:53 - 2
Can you show me some screens from Vloxen Excavations HM with your bar empty? Thanks!
18 Aug 2011 at 05:58 - 3
I like the potential. Too me it will either flop or be big. That's what it looks like to me. Here my 2 cents. Put it on PvX under trials and see what happens. It could be the next sabway or the next big joke. I'll be testing it myself but that is what I recommend.
18 Aug 2011 at 06:32 - 4
There are quite a few things that immediately catch my eye. The first thing is that I think you could easily get away with less defense. You have an ER prot ele, an ST/healer rit, a BiP healer, and a RoJ/Smiter's Boon semi-healer. Those first three that I listed aren't doing any damage apart from wanding. Why run ST/shelter when you have an ER prot ele? Your ele should be throwing out more than enough Prot Spirits. I also think that taking ST as your elite when you only have one spirit on the bar is a bit of a waste. ST prot rits are very strong when you don't have minions, so I'd suggest choosing between a full ST prot rit and your ER prot ele. If you chose to keep the ST rit, I'd suggest bringing some paragon support on it like "Stand Your Ground!" and "Never Surrender!". Whichever you choose to keep, you see yourself with one free character slot and still plenty of defense.
BiP is nice because it lets you stay away from Inspiration on your mesmers, but I'm not sure if mix and matching the attributes like that is optimal. I realize that's basically the whole point of your build, but have you tested these mesmers against full dom and full illusion mesmers? It is a nice idea to free up the attribute points that would normally be spent in Inspiration by running BiP which then allows you to run three copies of the best mesmer spells (Sig of Clumsiness, Mistrust, Wandering Eye), but I'd want to make sure there is a clear benefit from running the mesmers in a hybrid form like you have.
One thing you seem to have completely skipped over is enchantment removal. I normally run a few copies of Drain Enchantment on my mesmers, but that seems out of the question for your build idea. I would try to throw some enchantment removal into your teambuild somewhere.
My last criticism is that I think you have too many res's. You should easily be able to get away with three, which will free up some slots for some nice utility skills on a few of your hero bars.
I tweaked the build a little bit while trying to stay true to your general philosophy. These are the changes I would make before leaving an outpost and some changes reflect my personal preference.
*I meant to fit Enfeebling Blood onto the Curses necro
I'd really like to make that FoC bar a PoD necro, but I'd run MoP and Weaken Armor on that bar which isn't very helpful to the rest of the team (I play a Warrior though  ). That whole character just came out of my idea that the build could do with less defense than you had present in the team. These are just my suggestions of how I personally would alter the build! For the record, I think "dilling" is a neat idea.
18 Aug 2011 at 06:48 - 5
Can you post some screens from Vlox HM dungeon? Thanks!
18 Aug 2011 at 07:02 - 6
I appreciate the suggestions/criticism! One thing I'd like to make sure you know, as you may have missed it (it's a long post), is that I use this for the DoA. That's is generally the reason to why I have so many rezzes, and why I would run rebirth on my own character, though that's not said. I also, as a matter of fact, wanted to prove that those 3 mesmers could dish out damage, too. As the build shows, they provide generally all of the damage. I've done extensive experimentation with mesmers, and I've found that the split mesmers perform at least as well as specific mesmers, but with the extra flexibility it provides to counteract both melee and casters alike. I wouldn't have posted it up if I thought otherwise.
Reflecting on the changes for any normal area, you are entirely correct - there is way too much healing/defense. In the DoA, having a backup prot spirit is quite helpful when rage titans hit the group, but that doesn't go on in day to day vanquishes.
You did hit on one thing I missed - enchantments. Enchantment removal never struck me, and it's completely viable to include shatter, and other skills, in the build. Thinking on the spot here (and bear in mind it's 2am), I would run something similar to what you have - however, I would leave the healing on the ST. I would probably also run a second shatter enchant, instead of a second shatter hex, and drop the FoC necro. I would at first glance add a second Smiting monk, and run dual fall back on the monks (the monk adds in a second set of hex removal) or run dual invokes to tag into my own invoke build. What you have is a reasonable approach, too, so don't take my thoughts otherwise!
In short, the core of it revolves around the 3 illusion/dom mesmers, a BiP battery (which tends to run easiest as a resto, imo), and the ST for protection. Among the remaining, taking direct damage and any extra healing needed.
Btw; the reason for only one spirit with ST is that it means shelter can be put up 3 times in 15 seconds - which means about 24 contacts of >10% hp damage need to happen before any full damage hits get in. Considering the inadequacies of AI prioritization, I've found it a beneficial change to have a permanent shelter vs an almost permanent shelter, chancing a recharge, and displacement or union.
@above - I can run it if you'd like, not entirely sure why though.
Edit: Grammar and stuff. Eww 2am edits.
18 Aug 2011 at 07:06 - 7
Going to try this on my mesmer, making some sweet balls as /e should make the spike dmg eaven better.
18 Aug 2011 at 07:11 - 8
When I get up tomorrow, I'll put together a full team that would be intended for regular play. Otherwise, anyone who wants to use it for that should bear in mind that it's going to be ultra-defensive for that, or they should read my summary and note my thoughts there. And a couple posts in the thread, too. :P
18 Aug 2011 at 16:55 - 9
I made some significant edits to the original post, that people may be interested in. I'd love to see what people say!
18 Aug 2011 at 16:56 - 10
Is BiP alone enough e-management for the mesmers?
18 Aug 2011 at 17:00 - 11
Yep, it's more than enough for most situations, and in a prolonged battle it gives a lasting source of energy to the party. The core team can sometimes have troubles with multiple good monks (read: two-three margonite Ki's), if the monks stay spread apart - especially if there's a lot of pressure, but there's rarely a time when they ever run out. However, running some additional energy helps - I sit them at 33 energy, and I wouldn't go any less. That is because the AI uses BiP when a caster is <50% energy, and that gives them a higher baseline at 50%. They'll have more energy when it's getting prioritized on them to last until they get it. You can't run a mesmer at 25 energy and expect it to go as smoothly.
18 Aug 2011 at 18:52 - 12
Have you tried it, without cons, in HM?
Not requesting screens per se, but looking for HM experience with it.
Looks great so far.
18 Aug 2011 at 19:31 - 13
Interesting idea, dual-tasking your mesmers. I'll definitely be trying that out.
Curiously, why does your ST have 14 Spawning and 11 Communing? Is it for the BoC breakpoint? Otherwise, it seems like you'd be able to get an extra trigger out of Shelter by speccing something like 10+1+2 Com, 11+1 Spawning.
18 Aug 2011 at 19:36 - 14
I like the builds, I wonder if the invoke or the RoJ does a better job in DoA overall...
Will shelter be up enough to support the spirit lights? How often does the AI use spirit light without a spirit present?
18 Aug 2011 at 20:40 - 15
I like the idea, working on it to fit to my Rt. Do you think the use of superior runes is worth the loss of 75hp on many chars?
18 Aug 2011 at 21:03 - 16
Had a hard time doing Frostmaw hard mode with this. Trying to change a few things so it works but still wiping at least once per level :/
18 Aug 2011 at 21:55 - 17
Isn't an Emo + ST kind of overkill?
19 Aug 2011 at 00:08 - 19
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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine
Isn't an Emo + ST kind of overkill?
It is. In 99% of areas, it's pretty overkill. That's why I put variations with less defensive capabilities - it shows all three areas, very high defense/medium offense, high defense high offense, and medium defense (maybe low) with very high offense. It also shows the firepower of the trio - it made it through Jadoth's group with no more assistance than a RoJ and a couple smiting skills.
It grew out of my desire to do the DoA barless, and here I am. :P
Well, I'll start with other questions.
drkn; I've tried it barless in HM to no avail, but I've done it in HM with success. Of course, this really depends on the area you're talking about - in the DoA, it'll have some success, but how much can depend on your skill, too.
itiscurtains; the ST rit doesn't have too much rigidness in the runes. As it stands, it goes for 5 solid hits without AoU, more with it. It barely makes that, though. I haven't done the math, another rune combination may be better! I'll check it and get back with it. Yay for constructive criticism.
Illion; either the core build with a solid player damage build, or the monk build would be best for DoA. The invoke's will likely be too light to make it through, unless you're careful and ball pulls of single mobs, and in that case RoJ might be superior, too.
As for Spirit Light/Shelter, yes. If shelter is down, assuming you're using the dual-smite variant, then you are probably in trouble anyways, because it'll be up 95% of the time. When you're recovering out of battle, it's generally not so critical to deal with the sac. Moreover, it's easy to pre-cast, and the n/rt doesn't lag behind, nor deal with energy issues from the lack of minions trying to cast Life.
Tirzan; Yes, I do. Since you are running on perma-shelter generally, having 500hp doesn't necessarily hurt. There's enough party-healing to deal with degen, so the health detriment doesn't matter so much. Nevertheless, I recommend having higher armor/health on the BiP so he's less of a target - which is why I specify the equipment for him/her.
teh bestest is here; If you can tell me what you have troubles with (which mob types, etc), I might be able to give a more clear answer. Frostmaw's has some unique hexes (read: wurm bile) which prove difficult, and Stormcloud Incubi can be frustrating in HM. I'll give it a try later (probably not tonight, but maybe - I'll have to see), I haven't done it with this build. I'll respond with my experience for it.
mage767; the core build doesn't work barless for Vloxen's, merely because there isn't enough damage to manage the 3-4 healer groups. I gave it a try last night, and went about 3/4ths of the way through level 2 before I got stuck on a 4-monk group. If I ran an invoke bar, it'd be a clear run through - the team held it's own quite thoroughly, but the numerous healers were frustrating, more so as they kited a lot. Going barless, I'll try the smiting or invoke variants and include results.
Thanks for the responses!
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Went through Vloxen's with the core build + an extra shatter for unnatural signet. Was working okay, but my internet disconnected me completely out towards the end of floor 2, and conveniently right before I was going to grab a screenshot, so I'll try again later. Vloxen's can be annoying, I'd never done HM in it. Slaver's seemed easier, but then again, I never tried slaver's without a player bar. <_<
19 Aug 2011 at 02:09 - 20
Ah, the extra defense makes sense if you're doing an elite area like DoA. I still think ER prot and ST prot is a bit redundant, but your ST does only have one spirit as well as a few heals. Any particular reason you chose the ST prot and no MM or offensive spirit route? I really like spirits/minions because they provide offense and defense at the same time. I'm thinking something like this (which is basically exactly what I run, except I run non-hybrid mesmers and no Bip):
(I realize this teambuild requires a mercenary. If you don't have mercenaries, just image an RoJ monk or an Invoke ele or something in there instead )
19 Aug 2011 at 02:48 - 21
Mainly because of all the hype involving spirits/minions :P They've been a staple of so many builds, that I wanted to do without, and show that difficult content can be done without them. An MM as you have is a great substitute for the E/Mo, but the build lacks defense that is only made up by SY - a feature that I want a build to not require, thus I use ST. I use it with only one spirit to make sure that spirit is always up, because it dies fairly fast. Otherwise, your build is great - but it'd only be for a melee that can maintain SY.
Also, ghostmirror should work well on a BiP, I'll try that ^^
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Upon request - Vloxen HM barless. One modification was made - I put in backfire for unnatural signet, because the healers were too difficult to put down without any assistance on the normal builds. It made me think outside the box, because normally I would've just taken technobabble and been done with it. In a way, I appreciate that - made me be more creative. :P
I pulled only in cases where I would've pulled a double aggro, and I wiped once in the case of a double aggro in an area about a third of the way through floor 2. It was a difficult run through, and this was my third try (the others I deemed failures after I wiped 2-3 times), so I would truly recommend people take a bar for it. :P
Edit: I should note that during the time I had a significant morale boost, it went much, much smoother. Enough that I'd consider popping two honeycombs and saving myself some pain if I was to do it over. Not entirely sure why it made such a difference, however.
For below, I kinda got sidetracked and forgot to screen, so I have no 'proof' I didn't use cons, you'll have to take my word on it. First and last level are proven, and for good measure I went back and took on a stone summit mob here just to help my point 
I'll take a look at frostmaw's, and hopefully see what may work for it. My guess is that it'll be one dungeon that takes a bit more tweaking.
19 Aug 2011 at 10:29 - 22
great job..love the idea of losing the mm 'cause i can't stand minions, will be sure to try this out in some simple vqs, does the rit put up shelter and use armor of unfeeling effectively? last thing, do you use any particular equipment on the heroes, i suppose a 40/40 for the mes', survivor insignia where one can seeing as e-management isn't a problem?
edit-just noticed the templates you posted have double bip (one without life and with the enchantment strip), and is missing the rt(only in the first team)- just a heads up
19 Aug 2011 at 11:39 - 23
Well done Plutoman! Doing Vlox HM with several handicaps such as no player bar, no cons, no MM, no SY, and no offensive spirits is indeed worthy of praise.
One can overlook what "tactics" such as player positioning were used, or how many DP removals were burned.
Obviously including a player bar will only improve the times you posted.
Final verdict: Even in the hands of a normal player, "Dillway" will fare quite well.
19 Aug 2011 at 18:50 - 24
3x mistrust without micro is pretty terrible in my experience. Even 2x is generally a waste, and that's assuming you are fighting nothing but casters. AI just does not chain it together very aggressively on a sinhle target for whatever reason. I'd watch your hero bars closely and see how many of their mistrusts just plain aren't recharging.
19 Aug 2011 at 20:55 - 26
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Originally Posted by FoxBat
3x mistrust without micro is pretty terrible in my experience. Even 2x is generally a waste, and that's assuming you are fighting nothing but casters. AI just does not chain it together very aggressively on a sinhle target for whatever reason. I'd watch your hero bars closely and see how many of their mistrusts just plain aren't recharging.
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I've been doing that. Generally, the biggest problem I see is them not using Power Spike, and being very eager to use Wandering Eye over everything else. However, the firepower they bring gives them a lot of utility - they do use Mistrust, and often enough to warrant the three copies. I'll be sure to watch it specifically, though, and see if anything else works better.
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Originally Posted by Jk Arrow
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