2011 Halloween Workshop!

Quote: Originally Posted by Thistle Xandra @Bonjela: lol at the grammar Nazi pic XD (BTW, plug for GuildMag if you enjoy editing since I think they're looking for editors ) Your piece looks like it's off to a great start, but it's super dark on my comp D: Did you mean it to be so dark? I had a problem with one of my pics where it seemed normal on my comp, but then it was super dark when I switched comps D: Thanks! And yes, it's supposed to be dark; there isn't really any light source to illuminate it, other than weak, reflected light from the ground, so the plan is to use lanterns and such as secondary light sources once the main shape is blocked out. You're right, though, it's dark enough that it may not show up too well on other monitors. Is there any way I can check how it looks on other computers without actually using lots of different computers?

As for editing, I do quite enjoy it, but I've never studied English so I'd feel uncomfortable editing in a more professional context. Having said that, I will now nitpick your story.

In general, I think this is a fantastic beginning. Razah's description of his birth is chilling -- I actually shivered at "I howled into emptiness as The Mists held me with noncorporeal arms" -- and you did a good job of showing his inability to understand the world around him.

However, I think there was too much telling and not enough showing, particularly in the first half. This is a Halloween story, so take advantage of oppourtunities to describe horror! Instead of hearing "my birth was, like, so traumatic, you guys", I want to experience the panicky, sick feeling of having to force his virgin lungs open with a gasp of cold air, or the claustrophobia he feels when he's clothed for the first time.

On to specifics:


Quote: I was not born.

Even now, I have no words to describe the creation of my existence, except it was a mistake, a rare error regretted by The Mists. Bolded: I think this would sound better as "except that it was a mistake".

Quote: The closest word I can think of to describe my existence prior to that fated moment is ‘dream-like.’ I was part of The Mists, whole yet not whole, everywhere and nowhere, a tiny piece yet infinite at the same time. Bolded: Does Razah know what it's like to dream? Would it really occur to him to use this analogy? I can see why you used it: it's the easiest way for a human to describe this sort of state, but coming from Razah it just doesn't feel right.

Quote: I do not know how or when the dark God Abaddon found out about my existence. I only know that his Margonites found and took me with them.

Then, the true torture began… Bolded: I'm nitpicking, but I think a period would be more effective here. The ellipsis makes it sound as though he's fishing for sympathy or thinks his story is the saddest thing ever, whereas a period would make him sound more innocent, as though he didn't realise how sad his story is.

Quote: The accidental curse from The Mists had ravaged my senses had driven me mad as my body suffered under the strain of countless new stimuli. Underlined: One of these is a typo.

Quote: The purposeful curse from Abaddon was far more sinister and left me silent and motionless as my mind struggled against an onslaught of knowledge. The Dark God wished to imbue my mind with all the knowledge in the universe, and he was succeeding. Information from the start of time and across time was injected into my mind as my body laid still and motionless. Underlined: Should be "lay".

Quote: As I absorbed the information, the Margonites fought around me, occasionally trying to damage my motionless body in jest. They joked about the new vessel and how it was in a weak human form. Despite the wealth of knowledge building in my mind, I did not understand it nor what the Margonites spoke of. Bolded: I might be wrong, but "in jest" is usually only used to describe pranks or jokes that the victim would find funny, whereas the Margonites are just being bullies here.

Quote: As in my first prison, I did not know how much time had passed as I stayed motionless while my mind absorbed the secrets of the universe. Bolded: You keep using this word. Let's feel what it's like to be trapped in his body instead of being repeatedly told that it's lying there.

Quote: Yet, my escape meant I had traded one prison for another. Once I had left Abaddon’s domain, I found myself in yet another terrifying and confusing land. My jumbled mind strained to make sense out of what I was seeing and experiencing; yet I could not understand any of the wealth of knowledge I had been damned with. Underlined: "Yet" is superfluous next to a semicolon. And you already used it in this paragraph.

Quote: Still, others attacked viciously before fleeing from my confused presence. Underlined: Remove the comma.

UnOrthOdOx: having 300 skulls... thats totally normal!. Your like a MM in rl

Quote: Originally Posted by bonjela

Thanks! And yes, it's supposed to be dark; there isn't really any light source to illuminate it, other than weak, reflected light from the ground, so the plan is to use lanterns and such as secondary light sources once the main shape is blocked out. You're right, though, it's dark enough that it may not show up too well on other monitors. Is there any way I can check how it looks on other computers without actually using lots of different computers?

As for editing, I do quite enjoy it, but I've never studied English so I'd feel uncomfortable editing in a more professional context. Having said that, I will now nitpick your story.
<snip> 1) You can try recalibrating your comp so you can select brightness, contrast, etc and see if that helps When you do that, make an image and then if you do have access to another computer, even briefly, you can check to see if the image looks way different or still good. Plus, you have all our computers in a way, since we can tell you if it looks too dark

I bet it'll look way different when you add in the lanterns and additional lighting, and I'm excited to see it!

2) Aww, if you like editing and want to get better, then I totally recommend checking out a GuildMag editor position since it's a fan magazine, and it's for fun, no pressure

3) Thanks so much for the story feedback! You touched upon many of the things that I already had concerns about (like the dream-like description and the sadness analogies), so it was great to have the second opinion on those! I should have pointed out ahead of time I was looking more for general feedback like that and not really editing specifics since this is still a super rough draft (as you could tell by repetitive words).

One of the challenges I'm facing is that I want to be as vague as possible in the intro while still grabbing the reader's attention. The start of Razah's life is supposed to be mostly foggy, and he's not supposed to be remember the exact details (parts 1 and 2). When he first wanders into Elona (part 3 start), again, the descriptions are supposed to be murky, because he doesn't know what anything is so he vaguely remembers wandering around. Time right now is supposed to be undefined.

When he meets Zinka, this will be the start of when the world starts making sense, when the descriptions start getting more specific and he becomes aware of time. He's looking into his memory like a cross between a massive encylopedia in another language and a baby dictionary. Some words make sense, others don't, and he's mostly getting spotty info. He doesn't know what sadness is, but he knows that crying happens when a creature is sad. He knows that crying means losing water even though he doesn't know exactly what water is. However, his innocence makes it so he doesn't register that the sky lacks the ability to cry, which is why Zinka's explanation of the sky is sad so it cries makes logical sense - even though it doesn't make sense instinctually. Your feedback convinces me I'm not showing this properly, so I need to fix this up to make it more clear

As the story progresses, I'm planning on it becoming more and more descriptive as Razah becomes aware of the world around him, but I'm definitely concerned about getting through the first parts and that I'm losing/boring readers before the story really starts D:

*Enters pressure*

What Thisle said is true, we, GuildMag, are slowly starting to look for new editors, if you're interested drop me a pm

*pressure ended*

I really would love to see what you all come up with for the Halloween contest, it's always quite fun to create something yourself - I did it before and became a honorable mention at some point

Will not be participating this year due to the start of university though, guess I'll need to see and make some time throughout the year to start up my wintersday 2012 creation though Future planning is always fun!

@Dutch: Lol. Well, I'll think about it, but I probably won't have time to contribute, since uni is starting for me soon and I want to get my contest entry done.

@Thistle Xandra: Whoops, sorry for diving into nitpickery so early. I'm still a noob at workshop. ^^ Also, thanks for the monitor suggestions.

Quote: Originally Posted by Thistle Xandra

As the story progresses, I'm planning on it becoming more and more descriptive as Razah becomes aware of the world around him, but I'm definitely concerned about getting through the first parts and that I'm losing/boring readers before the story really starts D: I could sense that this was the direction you were going in, so the beginning is actually quite strong. It's not boring, per se; it just needs more flavour. Razah clearly remembers being overwhelmed by stimuli, so why not let him attempt to describe what he felt?

I don't think that letting Razah use description early on would necessarily ruin the dream-like feel of this section: just keep it internal. Consider your own memories of dreams or early childhood: the images are vague and disconnected, but the emotions are as clear today as they were when you first felt them.

Quote: Originally Posted by Thistle Xandra

As the story progresses, I'm planning on it becoming more and more descriptive as Razah becomes aware of the world around him, but I'm definitely concerned about getting through the first parts and that I'm losing/boring readers before the story really starts D: I'd go the other way around. As Razah doesn't know much, he must describe everything in details using non-complexe words because he doesn't know the meaning of large or non-native (to him) words, but later on he needs to describe less as he learns more things, like what dreams are.

Since its a self recounting, you can get away with some telling rather than showing under the pretense of it being Razah's words, not some omnipotent view which has to show all.

I'll edit your piece later when I have access to a computer.

@ Bonjela: lol, noob or not, you're doing a fabulous job for feedback for Konig and I Usually, the lit pieces don't get that much attention, so the fact that you actually spent the time reading and editing really means so much to me (and I bet to Konig, too). I'm so happy you're taking part in the workshop I just wish I was more upfront with what I was looking for (Konig was) so you didn't have to go through with a fine tooth comb yet D:

@Konig: thanks for the feedback! And just to give you a heads up, I'm looking for general feedback rather than specific edits

@Thistle Xandra: Haha, don't blame yourself for my mistake. You did actually make it clear that this was an early draft; quote -- "Here's my first rough draft ... I may end up completely rewriting it based on feedback." I just went into editor mode because grammar corrections are easy.

I'm glad that I was able to help, anyway. ^^;

Quote: Originally Posted by Thistle Xandra @Konig: thanks for the feedback! And just to give you a heads up, I'm looking for general feedback rather than specific edits Well, my feedback on your stance is this: As I'm in a similar situation as you (two projects with a close-together deadline), I'd suggest you do as much work on this as you can, which means taking even the most minute of edits or feedback right off the bat. You have 2 weeks to wait for the fabric, from your previous post, so you should put the effort you would of spent on that onto this so you can finish this sooner and have more time for that later - plus, if you're rushing to finish them both near the end, rather than working on just one, both will come out less than they could be.

Furthermore, you say that you'll likely change things soon, but what if you don't? Or what if you do and you miss things? Would you rather change more things now and less things later, or less things now and more things later? I would be of the former and as such always welcome even the most critical of edits/feedback comments. Even if its of something I did purposefully.


Now then, onto your actual story, outside what I mentioned before about starting out with descriptive but simple words and ending in more of a telling form to show Razah's learning things, there are a few things that strike my ire.

Firstly, Razah named himself (or at least had a name before he was freed), but I recall saying you're doing a retcon of his story so that's fine. Same with a couple other lore errors - though lesser to the average GW fan - that I spotted. For instance, Razah is a demon, he just looks like a human (and is mechanically treated as one I think).

A grammatical error in the beginning is that you're capitalizing "god" - this isn't talking about a "one and only God" but a "one of many gods" - in polytheistic cultures, god is always lowercase. You're also inconsistent with capitalizing "dark" before it - first time, it's lowercase, second time it's capitalized. If you capitalize both, it's a different matter than prior, as it becomes a title - Abaddon, the Dark God; rather than a/the dark god known as Abaddon. Though since he isn't the only dark god (Dhuum!), he can't really have such a title to one who is non-Tyrian (I don't think Tyrians know of Dhuum, tbh).

Second, who is Zinka? Or rather, what is Zinka? Yes, Zinka is Zinka as she points out, but what is she? A child? An asura? The description makes me think asura but the attitude is definably that of a child. And if its a child, what kind of child? Human? Heket? Harpy? For all the description given, it could be an eldritch abombination formed out of the unholy union between Cthulhu and Brad Pitt - and hey, Razah comes from a realm of ultimate torture and nightmare, so such a sight wouldn't be odd to him, so it's completely plausible!

Other than specifics which you asked not for, and what was said already, abid-abid-abid-a-that's all folks!

Thanks for the super in-depth feedback, Konig!

Quote: Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes plus, if you're rushing to finish them both near the end. rofl, sadly, this is soooo me as you can tell from my last few workshop entries with the mad dash to finish at the end. XD


Quote: Furthermore, you say that you'll likely change things soon, but what if you don't? Or what if you do and you miss things? Would you rather change more things now and less things later, or less things now and more things later? I would be of the former and as such always welcome even the most critical of edits/feedback comments. Even if its of something I did purposefully. The problem with this (and why I didn't really put my drafts up for the other workshops) is because I do change stuff a lot, and I'd hate to have people spend time reading stuff that I completely decide to get rid of or reread and miss tiny changes that completely change the story. I posted this intro, because I'm not 100% comfortable with it and wanted to get feedback on it My original plan was to complete the whole thing and just release slowly over time at the start of Oct as a finished story. With your and Bonjela's feedback, I think I've spotted the weaknesses in this writing style that I want to fix so thanks again to both of you for helping me on this

Quote:
Firstly, Razah named himself (or at least had a name before he was freed), but I recall saying you're doing a retcon of his story so that's fine.
Don't worry, this will make sense in the end. I'm also going to explain the variable profession, the visible head armor, and why he hasn't gone mad when imprisoned without a purpose. This is actually the back story prior to the quest "Finding a Purpose."

Quote: Originally Posted by Thistle Xandra

How close do you try to get your costume to the actual game costume? I was thinking of substituting Danika's necklace and earrings for different ones so I could use jewelry I already have, but I'm wondering if I should try to make something closer to what she has. I've already changed the lace gloves to black satin gloves and the backless brown shows to backed black shoes, so I'm starting to worry that I'm deviating too much from the game model D: Cosplayers have different views on this in my experience; most seem to agree that accuracy is important, just how important it is compared to to wearability and aesthetics tends to vary from person to person. Personally I think accuracy is very important, but you have different levels of accuracy you can adhere to:

1) Similar silhouette: The overall shape and dimensions match, but not necessarily the pattern or colour. Examples: An A-line dress , knee-high boots.

2) Similar colour or hue: The colour or hue matches, but not necessarily the silhouette, and the details may be off. Examples: a red wig, a golden necklace.

3) Similar detailing: The details, pattern or decoration on the items match, but not necessarily the colour or silhouette. Examples: a filigree ring, floral pattern on a dress.

If you think of this list as graded from most important (1) to least important (2), you know you should always try to fulfill the first, preferably the second, and then the third if you want to be perfectly accurate. You can still adhere to one level more than the other, and you still have artistic freedom even if you do strive for accuracy. According to this, about your necklace I would say you should consider if the silhouette of Danikas necklace can be imitated by the necklace(s) you own, and then decide. It's always more important to get the large parts of the costume right than the small ones though, I'd say as long as you get that recognisable dress down I don't think even the most devoted fan would notice a change in gloves- or necklace-design.

Eep, wall of text again, hope it helps anyway. :/

Quote: Originally Posted by Thistle Xandra This one will make sense as the story continues It hadn't even crossed my mind that readers would think anything other than a human child D: I thought of an asura as well, but the dialogue made it pretty clear that Razah was speaking to a child (though "asura child" did run through my head a couple of times -- it's the name, I think. Sounds asura-like.)

However, I would make the argument that it's safe to let this one remain ambiguous. Offering a puzzle to the reader is always a good way to get them invested in your story... just be sure to include the solution somewhere!


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Speaking of asura, I thought I'd post a teaser from my piece while it's still asura week:

Quote: Originally Posted by Penguin oO UnOrthOdOx: having 300 skulls... thats totally normal!. Your like a MM in rl I have felt like Palawa Joko after Halloween.

"no no no, Human skulls go over there, animal skulls go over there. How many years we been doing this boys?"


Not contest related, but a commission piece for a local haunted house.

Okay! Updated the first post I'll try and be on for a bit today and tomorrow to pick up stuff.

Ok, well I'm going to sign-up. But I'm ditching the robot unicorn attack idea, I just couldnt figure out a way to make it work without not fitting the theme. :|

Name: Death By An Arrow
Art Form: Not sure... either Digital or Traditional. I havent made up my mind.
Idea: I... don't know D: I'm trying to think of something awesome to do now that I've ditched my plans, but I just cant think of anything.
Progress Gallery: http://deathbyanarrow.deviantart.com/gallery/32687600
Official Contest: [x] (tick this if youre submitting your entry to the official contest at www.guildwars.com)
Workshop Awards: [x] (tick this if you want to compete for the workshop awards (you forfeit your chance to be a judge)

So I need help generating ideas. Not giving me ideas persay, but topics/things to look into to inspire me. I went through some of the lore earlier but nothing jumped out at me :|

I'm planning on either a) trying a digital paint again. To see where ive come since last workshop (which is... no polished digital pieces >.<).
b) a grid-painting (Acrylic, not watercolour) on old cardboard binder inserts.
These:

I need help!

I've managed to hit myself into a roadblock - I need names for characters, specifically the royal family. Usually I'd go to behindthenames.com or some other name site but I'm not sure what would make up a good Primeval Dynasty Elonian name (we're given so few!), and I just suck overall.

I need names for the princess and two princes.

@DeathArrow: I dunno about a theme, but a multi-panel using the cardboard would look awesome I'm sure!

Hmmm, perhaps you can go the route of Nightmare before Christmas (aka "Bad jokes before Wintersday")? Best I can think of atm.

@UnOrthOdOx: Is that a bone minion? Looks pretty badass, either way!

@Death By An Arrow: Seeing those chunky blocks of cardboard immediately made me think of sticking ripped up pieces of paper (torn from magazines, newspaper, and origami supplies) to create an image. I know you were planning on painting, but if you go browsing through magazines and newspapers looking for cool images or colours you could use in this kind of artwork, that might help generate ideas that you could translate to a medium you prefer.

On generating ideas in general: try taking an obvious concept to its logical conclusion or combining two together in an unusual way. For example:
- Dressing up as Guild Wars characters is a popular choice for contest entries, so what would GW characters dress up as if they were to enter a Halloween art contest?
- Given that sylvari are plants, how would they approach pumpkin carving?
- What would happen if King Thorn was allowed into the Costume Brawl?


@Konig des Todes: I suspect you've already seen this page, but here is a list of Primeval royalty names. It looks like there's quite a mix of different name types, but I can see the underlying pattern: the first half are intended to sound Christmassy, since those NPCs were introduced during the 2005 Wintersday celebrations in TotPK; the other half sound more Elonian, since they were introduced in Nightfall as part of Istani lore.

I would stick with the more Elonian sounding names, for obvious reasons. They seem to use a lot of syllables that end in "-eh" or "-ah", and common letters are a, b, d, e, h, i, j, l, and n. I'm afraid I have no idea what real-life culture they're based on, but Ancient Egyptian might be a good starting point.

@Tzu: Thank you! I love, love your advice!

@bojela: doh... that shows you how terrible I am at picking out names XD
Awww, cute asura pic! I like how he's using the pumpkin as a stepstool to yell at someone XD

@UnOrthOdOx: wow, how long does it take you to make something like that?! That looks amazing! The glow looks so wicked :O

@DBAA: Hmm... kinda confused, are you planning on using the boards side by side so it's like 1 huge single painting (i.e., making it easy to make a huge painting since you're working on tiny bits) or making it an actual grid like spacing each board apart by an inch or so, much like looking through a grid window or putting the boards at random depths on top of each other so it's like a 3D effect? As for whether you paint directly on the board, I'd test a little corner just to see if it soaks through or turns out a different color Also, I liked your digital piece with the pumpkins from last year so I'm glad you're not counting digital out


@Konig: I just did a quick search and found from TotPK: King Elswyth, King Kole, King Millius, and King Wenslauss as the only Elonian monarchs and Queen Nadijeh being a sunspear. Are those the only ones around or are there more? Because if that's it, then wow, how are you supposed to make a naming pattern from that D:?!

Kole is Slavic meaning victory of the people, Elswyth is a female anglo-saxon name meaning elf from the willow trees, and assuming Wenslauss is from Wenceslaus, it's also Slavic meaning 'greater glory' (I couldn't find Millius from a quick search). My advice is:
1) follow the slavic trend and find something that has successful and leadership connotations (from a baby name site, you can sometimes list by origin... I'm not sure on that other naming site you mentioned)
2) follow part 1 and change possible names you dislike only slightly slightly as with Wenceslaus to something you like.
3) Go the LotRO route and pretend there are actual common naming conventions like -slauss and -wyth

But yeah, I'm terrible at picking out names, too, and that totally stinks that there aren't any more naming examples to help out D:


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These are my super boring updates brought to you with a copy pasta from my blog

Lit update: (lots have already been said on this board already)



Razah’s Development and Awareness of the World

September 17, 2011

One of the things I LOVE about writing Razah’s backstory is trying to figure out how he would see the world given that he literally has all the knowledge in the universe basically downloaded into him thanks to Abaddon. The Wiki likens him to Data from Star Trek. I like to think of Razah as having the strengths of both humanity and the demons spawned from The Mysts (plus some other bonuses). He’s sentient, of course, and has the abilities of humans (senses and emotion) in addition to pseudo-immortality (kind of like LotR elves, they can live practically forever in a happy and safe environment, but they can die when seriously wounded) and the ability to access mystical abilities from the universe.

So, with this in mind: who is Razah when he first ‘wakes up’ and given all the knowledge of the world? I imagine it as a sensory overload, which is why he spends to first part of his life in essentially a coma. When he wakes up, he’s much like an amnesiac. He can communicate, but he can’t access the knowledge that was implanted within his mind. When he finds triggers, it’s like an avalanche of information, because there’s just too much information that he doesn’t have context to. It would be like sitting in a class of astro-physics armed with ten-thousand reference books behind you. You look in one reference book for the answer, but then have to go to another and another… In the end, you’ve read about it and have the information, but you don’t really understand. Another example is memorizing a German passage, when you don’t know German. Sure, you can recite it perfectly, but you don’t know what it means. You need a dictionary to parse it bit by bit, but because of idioms, your self-translation probably makes even less sense!

Given Razah’s background, how will he develop and gain awareness of the world? In my version of his backstory, I like to think that he couldn’t do it by himself, all alone in the Heart of Abaddon area. He would need external help and exposure to outside stimuli to give him that push to grow. Specifically, he wanders Elona and meets Zinka, a 6-year old orphan girl. From here, the plan is to follow Piaget’s Theory of Intelligence and Intellectual Growth along with some of Erikson theories. According to Piaget, during the Preoperational stage, children use symbolism to understand the environment around them. In other words, the sun moves, so therefore it is alive. For Razah, seeing through the eyes of Zinka gives him the basic building blocks to understand the world around him in very simple cognitive schemes. Through assimilation, new experiences are put into pre-existing simple schemes and whenever there is conflict, or disequilibrium, the schemes are altered in order to accept the new schema.

After the preoperational stage comes the concrete operations stage where children can start inferring things by seeing other’s behaviors. Finally, the last stage for Razah, which will be the very last part of my story, is the Formal Operations stage. He doesn’t need purely logical thinking to understand the world around him. He can now ponder hypothetical situations and form - what I believe is the most important part of what makes him human – an imagination.

Anyway, this is probably going to be the only non-story update I write, so I hope this update wasn’t too boring and you’re all looking forward to reading about Razah’s Tale and his personal journey.




costume update: (lol, no costume pieces yet... I feel like all I talk about is shopping)

Quote: Originally Posted by Thistle Xandra

@Konig: What is the typical naming style for the Primeval Dynasty Elonians that you know? I'd be glad to help you come up with some hoity-toity royal names

@bonjela I actually did something like that for last years wintersday, and then ran out of time and flopped on painting the background :| But i know exactly what you mean with the collage, they can look pretty amazing when theyre finished. Last years wintersday took quite a big chunk of time, which I only had because I had a two week holiday break to work on it, so i don't think it'll be an option while school is in full session before halloween :/

Those are good ideas for generating topics. I'll see what I can backtrace and combine and everything. I tried doing the halloween in guild wars idea (fusing hellhounds with robot unicorn attack), so I might try something similar to that idea of combining what halloween would be like for the characters.

@Thistle What I'm thinking right now is that each board is going to be a grid square of one larger painting. So when all 6 are as pictured, they make one huge image. Grid projects, imo, are really fun because you dont have to worry as much about asthetic detail after you get a good original down pat. Then its all about telling the story with value, lighting, and all the fun stuff :3 I think I'll most certainly test out on one of my bad/unusable boards (when the plastic peeled off my binders and exposed the boards, I tended to draw and doodle and colour ALL over the cardboard. So those cant be used ;p).

If it doesn't turn out well on the board, does anyone have any suggestions for what to put ontop of them? I know canvas is usually used for the thicker paints and paper for watercolour, so I don't know if there is a paper used for thicker paints as well :S

If I can't figure it out soon (going to Currys [art supply store] tomorrow anyways, so ill buy supplies) I'll just go digital, then use this stuff for wintersday. I could do both this way, I've got enough boards, so we'll see