Make Zei Ri available after NM WoC

Why shouldn't he be mass unlocked on all characters just like the other heroes? There is nothing special about Zei Ri, I think he is ugly in fact but still he is one of the 3 rit heroes that we have been awarded.

If you want to talk about a really special hero, I think Razah would be a lot more special than Zei Ri because he can at least change his primary profession. I don't see why Zei Ri should be harder to get than Xandra as he doesn't give any more in-game advantage over Xandra. At least you can obtain new armor for Xandra and display her in your HoM. She even comes with a new quest and quest reward. Zei Ri doesn't. The reward should commensurate with the degree of difficulty of obtaining said reward.

Besides, in terms of my point of making the game fairer between people with real world money who can buy merc slots vs those who don't, rit and mesmer heroes should be made more readily available.

You are totally entitled to run your own builds, hell, I know a lot of team builds myself that are probably better then the meta. However, to determine if something is hard or not, I load some standard 3 nec/3mes/1 rt bars, and rush into the mob without pre-casting,micro, or flagging.
If I can do that, and everything around me melts, and no deaths, I consider it not to be hard.
Don't say you require a brain simply because doing it with your builds make it require one.
I run whatever gets me the result I want.
if thats my own team I run my own team.
if it happens to be meta I run meta.
If you find it to be hard, but refuse to run meta builds that can complete it you are gimping yourself, and only you are to blame, not the content.

And sure, not everyone has 4 campaigns.
But then they should not play woc/say woc is crazy in the first place.
WoC is the first new content designed to give a challenge for those with 7 heroes, and is meant for playing AFTER one has finished all campaigns.

Not everyone Leeroys, true.
But why shouldn't you when you can do so without getting punished for it?


Also, I do not "think" woc requires no brain, I just stated why that is.
So why don't you stop saying it DOES require a brain because YOU think that way.

Your flawed argument works both ways.

If you've done WiK you shouldn't have the feeling of WoC NM being difficult at all. In fact it is quite boring and brainless easy.
I still remember doing the "clear shenzun tunnels" staying right in the middle and lasting almost all waves (only wiped because of energy stress+not flagging heroes away from damage efficiently).
Same thing for "what waits in the shadows" and "tracking the corruption", i didn't care much about agro at all. On tracking i just stood in one of the spawn points and blew up everything that came near and fighting several groups at a time with little to no drawback.

Now in HM it was quite different.
On "clearing shenzun" and "what waits in the shadows" i carefully picked a mob at a time and took them away from the other groups. And as you can imagine i didn't agro the whole map on tracking.

Not everyone has all 4 campaigns: though luck, with the age of the game they should have them or they'll have a natural disadvantage no matter what content they tackle. Not because they might miss the heores, but because they need the skills.

Not everyone loads meta builds: doesn't seem so, the number of people who seems to be unable to learn keeps rising solely due to the hero setups that do all the work for the player. Besides like Wielder stated meta isn't the same as most efficient, sometimes you need to adapt.

Not everyone goes leeroy on WoC: only in HM, and even so i bet some players would still be able of doing it the for most quests and succeed. While in NM it's fairly easy and brainless the HM content will make full use of your skills and your brain to adapt to the particularities of each quest. (that's how i felt at least)

Merc slots give some advantage but the current hero setup has no problems with 99% of the game and that was why anet released them in the 1st place.
I don't have mercs nor i feel that i need them and actually i don't think anyone that owns them as any real advantage over me.

They can do UW NM/HM because of a 5th necro/4th rit/4th mesmer and i can't? I don't care since the time they'll take is much higher than current SCs. Same for DoA and any other elite area that requires real players instead of heroes.
They can easily vanquish and do all missions? So did I and half of them were before the 7h update, before rits were op and when mesmers were useless.

Giving the last rit hero with little effort isn't making the game fairer, it's just turning easy mode into easier mode (if that's even possible anymore).

Everyone should be able to form their own team the way that they want it after completing the content once just to be fair to those players who are poorer in real life. Besides, we can access Thackeray after completing WiK so there is no reason why we need to complete WoC twice just to access Zei Ri, who is just a normal rit hero.

Sure you don't need mercs in most parts of the game. Mercs are just an added dimension of fun if you like tinkering with builds, like I do. The fact that we all know there is more than just a cosmetic advantage to having mercs, is a sign that something has gone wrong with the original design philosophy of only selling cosmetic advantage in the store, not game playing advantage. What's next for the store? Special swords that you can buy in the store with 1000-10000 damage for $50?

Is that the kind of design philosophy you want to support? We should put a stop to this and equalize this advantage before things spiral out of hand.

It is making it fairer because you are giving the same ability to the rest of the players, without requiring them to go through huge amounts of grinding, as those who can already afford mercs.

I don't see why Zei Ri should be so much more tedious (i.e. not harder) to obtain than Thackeray.

Doing missions again in hard mode or hard mode versions of quests is not grinding.

SCs, farming, the last ranks of each reputation title. That's grinding.

If you find those quests boring, you don't do them, and you don't get the rewards.
You find Nightfall boring, you don't do it, you don't get Razah.

Its basically the same.

Like I have said, I don't need Zei Ri. I already have all the other heroes plus I can afford merc slots.

Thankfully there is no reason for me to do the same 35 quests, 2 (for both NM+HM) * 20 (for the 20 playable characters that I have) = 40 times just to equip all my characters with a new rit hero. If I view them in terms of the number of quests that I would need to complete to achieve this, I would have to perform 35 * 40 = 1400 quests total!

If that is not tedious, I don't know what is. And guess what? Just by paying $10 in the store, I could avoid all that and have a new rit merc for all my characters right away. How is this fair to those players who do not have the cash? And we have already established how having mercs translates to an in-game advantage. This is a disturbing trend for the game where real world money now gets turned into in-game advantages and not just cosmetic changes.

To reiterate what I just said, new rit and mesmer heroes should be made more available to the general playerbase because we are given so few of them for free while money-spending players can get them without a single tedious grind. How is that considered fair?

i'm back for a bit, i just wanted to let people see their results:

so people who think it should NOT be a NM hero, say its "NO" cuz the game is too easy on NM to them, which is why anet gave them HM, and even HM quests and rewards (not just WoC btw)

if you want a challenge, then you do HM, so you dont need a hero for HM, as you already got the challenge you wanted
getting a hero as reward for a challenge you also wanted makes you want a reward for your reward, get it? you want a hero for a challenge you want as reward

should i go shopping, buy 1 game, and ask for another game to be free, as i need a reward for buying a game? maybe not that accurate example, but smart people should get it (uh oh, now people get offended) and if you dont, take your time to do so

people who wanted a challenge got HM as challenge and more money, z coins etc. as reward, but now they have the challenge THEY WANTED, they ALSO ask for a reward for that..... makes 0% sense

ALL other heroes are on NM, yet having xandra and razah (not 100% rit) isnt special, so why should yet another rit hero?
merc. heroes arent special, they are an extra from the store, like char slots and such

soon people ask anet to sell the new rit hero, but if they would, let everyone who has gotten that hero from WoC, lose it, so its fair to everyone

anyway, if you want your challenge, do HM, and dont ask for a bigger reward than what you get already, as YOU are the ones who wanted that challenge, and getting a reward for something you wanted, thats asking for more twice in a row

tell me this:
what would go wrong if that hero would be a NM reward, while HM is made for challenges and already have bigger rewards than NM in money and items (ministerial commendations and Imperial Guard Requisition Orders and even Imperial Dragon's Tear)
and when done everything in NM and HM, you have way more than just NM or HM, and you say NM is too easy, so you dont even need to do much to get 1 group of rewards, you just gotta do HM, which you think is easy enough, to get even more of those

so NM + HM done = lots of stuff you can get nice weapons and such with, and maybe even mini's and SPOILERpandaSPOILER as pet
and that on each char, isnt that enough rewards?
if not, ask anet to let NM-ers get the hero, but HM-ers get maybe twice as much from these as what they get now.... still sounds greedy, but you wanted bigger rewards for HM and you wanted HM for challenges

btw, even i tried my own stuff, like doing easy quests in any campaign on HM instead of NM, and this was BEFORE the HM versions of the few quests we got
like for example: i once said to some i know from GW "hmm, with 7 hero i may try titan quests on HM, just for fun" they didnt see a good reason why i'd do that, but i wanted to see if i could, and now they got those quests made for HM

ohh, i know something
if you think NM is way too easy, start WoC on HM with NM quests, that way you do them on its hardest as possible, after that do HM quests, and you didnt need to do that "easy mode"
hey, YOU wanted a challenge, right? and anet gave you the possibility to do so, by turning on HM
HM got titles, but as i gave my examples of doing sidequests on HM, you can also use it as an optional challenge.... not bigger rewards, but more challenge, which was something you wanted in the first place, right?

another example would be the WiK storyline quests on HM, and do all sidequests which spawn more enemies on HM, just for fun and your challenge
there's so many challenges you can make for yourself, even i did that.... and still do that, so why cant you?

1 more example? ok: farm nicholas items on HM every week, and if its materials, dont even buy them, just get them from drops or dropped stuff like armors from enemies

ps. i can make millions of challenges, so can you

EDIT: 1 more to give you something pretty (or very) hard:
make a proph char LDoA, or use a low lvl and DONT use heroes just get to lvl 20, then start over from proph without doing any quests in post searing, do ALL sidequests and primary quests on HM with henchies, and only use the armors at places you got the quests from

am i good at doing this? no
am i good at making challenges? i think i am pretty good at that

just whisper me for more ideas, or make them yourselves
small one then: do all vqs without heroes, just hench and no upgraded armors

Ayuhmii Shanbwa, I made a picture about you ... then I realized it is way too much. Instead I'll try different approach. Please do tell us what is difficult for you. You keep saying you have some sort of disability but you've never said what exactly disables. If it is strategic thinking - wiki, gwpvx. If it is the clicking itself - macros(as long as you don't reach 1k apm they can't prove anything).

WoC is tedious - yes, boring - yes, hard - hell NO. Is it supposed to be that way? - Hell NO. I've done it on HM with my assassin.Will I do any part of it on my other chars? - Hell NO. Will I appreciate having 3rd rit on my other chars w/o having to go through all this BS - YES!!! But **** all those who can't do this on HM even once. They don't deserve Zei Ri!!!

P.S. I actually love the 1st part. It's the perfect place to test builds.

ugh. why cant this community debate without sinking to personally attacking each other -_-

hmm..i dont think comparing WoC to beating NF to get Razah is a good comparison. because for one, razah truly IS a unique "reward", and two, as you progress through NF (which IS "brainless easy"), you also unlock a multitude of other heros, skills, armors, and title points as you go. and lastly, you don't have to beat NF on NM and then again on HM to get him. what if we were instead to compare getting him to the other "normal" rit hero? things change just a bit then.

i personally do think there is too much involved to get this hero if you want him on more than one character. this post:
^basically says how I feel about it. The HM might not be TOO hard (sadly for me it is), but for those that don't have merc slots and want the option of another rit hero, it becomes very grindy. So if he is gonna be a reward to show that you conquered HM WoC, why not make him a unique one...like making him unlocked on other chars on the account. As others said, there's nothing "special" about him. In fact, he's the least special of the three (can't be profession switched, can't be put in HoM, no armor upgrades). And it's not like they haven't done account-unlocked heros before (M.O.X.).

If they are gonna keep the difficulty the way it is, some of the stuff NEEDS to be fixed (take away the need to relying on AI glitches to finish certain quests (lagoon), and make the grind/effort more worthwhile (adjust the drop rate of the commendations, especially in HM).

i admit that i can't finish it in HM. i've gotten to the one that takes place in dragon's throat, and i just can't do it. ive tried meta builds. ive tried my own builds. i just gave up. guess i dont have a brain, lol. maybe ill eventually find someone that can drag me through it, but until then, im stuck. so yeah, not everyone can do it. just putting that out there. >.>

i dont want to get gang-jumped and my head bitten off. just trying to put in my two cents. "I COME IN PEACE!!" >.>

Well, my position is, awarding Zei Ri at the end of the HM quest line is stupid regardless of whether or not the content is too hard. He's a resource to use in play, and it's useless to get him when you're done playing.

I feel ambivalent about that issue.
On the one hand, yeah, i agree that doing NM+HM on every character you want to get Zei Ri with is too much. Requiring NM once and then unlocking HM for all other characters would surely be a good idea (and after finishing only HM, Miku would be unlocked as well).
But on the other hand... it was already said here, but i'll repeat: if you want to get something done on 10 characters because you're an altoholic and can't decide on one-two main char(s), well, that's your problem. If having 5+ 'main' chars is what floats your boat, then cope with such a big chunk of content as WoC.
Or simply change your attitude and stop perceiving getting Zei Ri and/or beating WoC HM as something you have to do for some reason, but as another goal to achieve while playing the game for fun. The fact is that we need goals in games, whether they're self-imposed ('i want to get all armour sets in the game') or external (titles). This is a perfect external, yet still completely optional goal to fulfill if and when you feel like it. There's simply no reason to rush it with several characters in one week, especially given that everyone was fine without Zei Ri.
It's like you wanted to have all skill points available for every sub-sequent Paladin you create in Diablo II after getting max level with the first one. It's like you had that new armour set unlocked and readily available for every next Necromancer you roll after you obtained it with your initial character here, in GW. Yes, Guild Wars doesn't promote grind, and this mindset is retained here - it's still all optional, not game-breaking if you decide not to follow this goal, and rewarding if you do. If you want to split your play time on more PvE characters than two, however, that's your own decision and your own issue.

You forgot to mention Person D - still whining about nonsenseous issues that may be actually perceived as features, even when confronted with logical counter-arguments of the other side.
Seriously, some people in this thread do point their fingers and say 'stop whining, WoC is supposed to be hard, shut up and live with it', but even more people keep repeating their own mantra - 'it's not fair it's so long and i have to do it with all my characters (so stick to one or two main chars), it's too hard for an average casual player (so get better at it, not every content on the highest difficulty level in any game is meant to be readily available for casual players), i'm such a helpless player and no one wants to help me for free, wasting their time (so get into a PvE guild, and i won't mention getting better at playing with heroes), it's so much grind, it's not what GW was supposed to be about (if you call WoC, or optional consumable titles 'grind', then you haven't seen any real troublesome grindfests in MMO; play Lineage 2 for a month or two and we'll talk again)'.
I could ramble on and on.

In short, the only logically inclined change would be to let us play HM WoC after beating NM WoC only once with any character, pretty much as it is with the campaigns right now. It could be done for WiK, too. After beating HM that way, a character would get both Miku and Zei Ri.
Other than that, all the 'arguments' are merely opinions; more so, opinions that are confronted by equally valued opinions as well as factual data.
WoC HM too hard? Okay, i'm not saying that you're a noob or an idiot if you can't complete it, or that it's not hard at all and you should have no problems; all i'm saying is that having some hard content, a real challenge, is a feature of nearly all serious games out there, from Starcraft with its difficulty levels to God of War with Titan Mode, to Fallout, to good old Doom (i couldn't beat Nightmare level in Doom 2, never ever, though i wasted long hours for it). It's always optional, usually yielding higher/more/new rewards if a player manages to beat it. And, well, that's a staple of video games, and it's actually a good thing - and it's a good thing that GW finally got some 'hardcore' content.
Repetitive? Yeah, the first part of WoC is repetitive and boring, and it's an example of slappy design. We all agree on that. But in general, what is repetitive to you, may hold a replayable value to someone else. Someone who's not so stressed to get Zei Ri, but gives himself more time for it, takes breaks when needed.
Too long? Again, most of us agree HM should be available outright after beating NM with any character. This would let you get Zei Ri and Miku for everyone without the need to waste time for NM again, yet still retaining the challenging aspect.

You're assuming that beating WoC HM is the last thing to do in the game.
What about people who still have elite zones to complete and would like to tackle them with heroes? What about dungeons? What about people who still have some VQs or missions to do? For them, getting Zei Ri is a substantial resource, indeed, that is still of use and probably will be used during completing other goals. And if you roll a new character and kinda start with WoC HM as soon as you're done with Factions, you will also benefit from unlocking the hero.
So no, it's not useless to get him. If it is, this means you're sitting at 50/50+GWAMM (or a satisfying equivalent for you) already and don't intend to play any more, or too much. Yeah, then getting Zei Ri is kinda useless (unless we get new parts of Beyond), but then... why bother doing WoC HM in the first place, or even why bother about getting any new hero? Imagine you could get Zei Ri by beating a very short and easy side-quest, like talk to this and that NPC, and poof, Zei Ri is yours. Why would you complete it if you don't plan to use the new hero at all after WoC? Just because he's available? So is he now... Or to beat WoC HM with an additional pair of ritualist hands? This creates a very circular logic with a downward spiral pointing right towards a vicious circle - change WoC HM rewards so that you can get Zei Ri before doing WoC HM so that you can do WoC HM easier so that you can get its rewards. And that's kinda silly.

Didn't forget him, he just doesn't fit in the demonstration of double standards that I used Person A and Person B for. I wasn't trying to characterize every oddball in this thread, the alphabet doesn't have enough letters.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but we're talking about a game that hasn't had a substantial expansion in 4.5 years. (Yeah, it's been that long.) It's safe to assume there are plenty of people with nothing new to do and no intention of diving back into old content, after they complete WoC on a character. I've gotten Zei Ri on two characters so far, and both are back out to pasture. (And ironically, I didn't do WoC again on a second character for Zei Ri, but to get some extra lockboxes, and to see how all the rebalancing affected the difficulty.)

Finding a guild isn't an option for me. Maybe if this was 2005 and there were still many good ones to choose from, I'd consider leaving my small guild of several close friends (who are also...honestly not very "hardcore" players). I'm not sure where the "nobody will help for free" thing came from...I couldn't find anyone complaining about that. And if it came to it, hell I'd pay someone to drag me through it. Honestly it's likely what will end up happening. :/ "Get better at the game"...teach me the ways of the master?!? I have played many other MMO's, and know what grind and repetition is and isn't. So yeah...

Not everyone is here just to whine. Some of us are just inputting our opinions. Sadly, some people don't like to see other people having ones different from their own. :/

Oh, i hear you, sitting at 50/50 and GWAMM i'm only waiting for GW2, but... in the meantime, i'm working on my Luxon title. For no real reason; i still like GW1, but as everyone, i need a specific goal in mind to play it rather than just wander aimlessly. I don't really play often, my uptime is below 10h/week right now, with longer breaks as well, but when i do, i do it because i feel like it at that moment, and it's fun to me.
Now, what Zei Ri has to it? Well, an additional ritualist seemed helpful for VQing Mount Quinkai with heroes (but my previous build proved superior and i don't really use my Zei Ri now). Still, i had an incentive of getting him not only because i kinda craved a challenge in GW (after i got used to modified discordway, the game has become way too easy), but i also hoped he'd cut a minute on my MQ times. He didn't, but still, you get the idea - the goal was there.
Now, it's completely different if you have done everything in GW, PvE-wise, or that you simply don't find the remaining content (or options, as in rolling another class) fun to do/get, even remotely. Then yeah, getting Zei Ri is useless, but then again - playing at all kinda doesn't make sense if it's not fun.
So we're, again, down to the point that if you still enjoy the game and have something to do in it (even unnecessery, self-imposed stuff that you still find fun from time to time), getting Zei Ri is not useless. Being a reward for beating a considerably harder content (not commenting on the design, especially of the first part of WoC, or the NM requirement) has its own reasons, mainly introduces a challenge that feels even more rewarding because of its difficulty rather than Zei Ri, and that appeals to a quite big part of the playerbase - especially those bored old veterans who, like me, more or less desired such a challenge. However it may seem completely unrelated, the teamplay part of the game is also a major factor here - harder content naturally makes people more likely to group up (even if within their guilds rather than PUGs), and people who managed to get Zei Ri might be more desired to group with because of an additional rit hero. It would require a quite big digression from the thread, and i already am barely touching it at some points, so i won't continue here, but just think a little about possible (and maybe even planned by ANet) social effects of the current state.

Sure - get a hang of more or less basic mechanics and use them to your advantage (be careful at pulling, corner-block or at least use corners to block ranged projectile damage and ball up melees, etc), experiment with builds (i provided an example of using a trapper for HM Rragar's back when i had problems there, worked wonders even though wasn't too fast or stable), use PvX, use everything the game offers you to help you (consumables, including personal cons, PvE skills). If this isn't enough, exploit the AI, starting at using two mesmers with interrupts and ending with dragging escorted NPCs to a safe place.

I have a nasty habit of treating everything i read on the internet as an opinion by default, unless based on some factual data or research, with provided sources and examples. That's why i not only ramble about other games having their own hardcore content, but also point at some to provide a fair comparison material. Other than that and such cases, everything here is merely an opinion, and it doesn't change at all whether you state it clearly or not; more so, i observed over the years that people who clearly finish their posts with 'and please don't take my post too hard, i only posted my opinions' have a variety of reasons to do so, whilst it still changes nothing if you're aware of basics mechanics of semantics and interpersonal communication. But that's going off topic way too much now.

@down
Most certainly Just as every opinion may, and very often even should, be confronted with (1) factual research and (2) other opinions. That's a constructive dialogue, when two or more equal mindsets clash after non-factual and unreal claims are ruled out.

my case being that i read this whole topic and didn't want to be reamed out/ganged up on because i dislike arguing, and dislike stressful situations in general. i just wanted to input my opinion in a way that didnt cause the defenders to stab me with their pitchforks. >.<

ive tried most of those techniques (balling, terrain exploiting, etc) and had no luck. like i said if it comes to it i will beg/pay someone to hold my hand through it, but i'd rather be able to do it by myself. for me doing it once will be tough/impossible. doing it more times....meh. thats why my opinion stands that id like to have SOME alternate way to get him. doesnt have to be a handout/"mindless" way....just....another option. That's all. Even your suggestion of doing it once in NM then HM is opened for the other chars would help. then id only have to ask for help with the HM "grind" (term used loosely), instead of doing NM, asking for help, doing NM, asking for help, etc. anyway, i made my points. and im not here to argue with anybody. i just feel that everyone with an opinion should be able to be heard.

Well now, i can't leave for a while and the thread just got bigger and bigger so lets start.

Even though i wrote that i feel the same.
I'm in gw just waiting for gw2 while completing some of self imposed achievements. I'm 82/100 on the extended HoM (88/100 when i decide to put the tormented i bough a few months ago) missing only gamer, pvp titles and some minis.
At the moment i'm only thinking of two more things, finishing the minis and if i still have time maybe max zaishen title.
I never thought of doing PvP titles since i kinda suck at it (i do surprisingly fine at jq though) so i figured it would take a longer time to actually get decent at RA, as at this stage of the game any sort of organized pvp (GvG/HA) is barred to me.

Still i figure that for those that like to tinker with their hero setups they shouldn't have the hassle of going through NM+HM multiple times. After demonstrating they're worth of Zei Ri theu could chose to take the full challenge again or take a shortcut.


To another point now.

You're referring to "what waits in the shadows" right?
The trick for that one is just pulling away the groups and bringing PI.
The real hard part is the first 2 groups, sometimes they're close, but if you manage to kill them the rest is just all about agro control.

An ST rit might help (micro him to set the spirits b4 pulling) and an SoS (if it's you might be easier to manage) to make spirit walls as well as an MM for taking the heat of your party.
Use the tunnels to make the enemies clump together and set the spirit wall so they don't get past (the summon spirits skill helps with this). Also don't forget to use the corners/height to block projectiles.

PI target priorities changes depending on the mob composition.
Eles if they bring aoe (you even might consider put the old spirits there just to finish them faster). Other good targets are the warriors because they can spike your team down with splinter weapon. So PI them just after they cast it and either put your spirits near them or let them target the minions.

It's also critical to control of enemies aoe, you can use them to hurt them (like explained before), but also to not stress you healer. So flag you party behind the spirit wall when pulling and be sure to get them away from enemy aoe.

Again don't forget to pull them far away from the other groups. This way the other team's monk won't come to the rescue, bringing their team with them, and it's easier to run away since you're already far from their patrolling zone.

On the last boss, the rit, hit him from afar with longbow to pull him. This way he'll set the spirits and then come to you. PI him and watch him blow himself while he targets your minions and spirits with his aoe. Just be sure that your whole team is flagged properly or it will be an almost 1 hit kill from spirit rift.

Hope this helps.

I'm going to close this for three reasons.

1 - It turned into a gigantic off-topic flamefest.

2 - I think we've said everything there is to say.

3 - This is getting out of scope of Sardelac. If you want to discuss builds and tactics, do it in Explorers or Campfire, for example. If we're not being directly constructive about the main idea (and not just the same old arguments for and against, which isn't super useful anyway) then we're not really getting anyway.

As always, anyone who wants to officially submit an idea to ArenaNet or PM me about moderation is welcome to do so.

Closed.