Make Zei Ri available after NM WoC

while the WoC content IS hard (people complained about battle for la and it was scaled down quite a bit, and imo that quest really paled in comparison to some of this stuff...just noting that)...i think most people that are complaining, are actually complaining about how much of a repetative slog it is (having to do it twice on every character they have, if theyd like the benefit of having him). I like the idea of having to do it once in HM (like i said i dont want everything just handed to us). but i feel like after we finish it on one character, he can be attained on other chars on the account by talking to him in kaineng center, or doing a quest, or something. people complained razah was too much to get....so it was changed. people complained about bfla being too hard...it was changed. odds are...a lot of the WoC content will be changed too, no matter how many people you gang up on/chase off the forums. :/

I wasn't referring to you in particular.

On the whole "multiple character" thing:

Has it never occured to some people that maybe they are not supposed to finish the whole game in NM and HM on 10 chars? There's no game out there in which completing the whole game on 10 chars is easy or fast. Also, every piece of content is a repetitive slug if you do it 10x2 times, not just WoC. So I see no problems there. Nothing should be changed, those who want to have WoC finished on every character, should play through it on every character.

Which would be the exact point of finishing it on one character and having him unlocked for the account.

That would be good but i would prefer some kind of quest that the requirement is have zei ri on another character.
This way no amount of wealth could unlock him and people with a whole lot of chars wouldn't have to go through the boring part 1 again.

I know, just referring to most of our forums posters. The community isn't bad at all, in general its still one of the friendliest forum communities out there.

I agree with you on the general principle, but ANet gave many pointers that they, in fact, would rather avoid making their game a repetitive and boring slug. I'm not only talking about their words or the fact that farming is totally optional (serves only getting non-obligatory titles rather than gearing/exping up just so you're able to tackle the next location of the game), but also how they handed the HM issue. Just to recap: once you've beaten a campaign in NM on any character on your account, HM is unlocked for every character that reached max level. You don't need to go through the whole NM in order to unlock HM on your alt characters.
The same could apply to WoC - making it possible to start with HM, and complete the whole chain in HM only, after you've beaten NM with any of your characters would certainly help, wouldn't be game-breaking, wouldn't take any challenges away and, overally, would make sense.

WoC: HM is challenging not "insanely hard". There should be a great reward for those who did it.

/notsigned

I finally got him after a week of misery.

It does feel rewarding now.

Agree. Sort of.

I found most HM quests not really "hard", but rather poorly designed and usually frustrating, and that doesn't qualify as "challenging" to me. Only the completionist in me motivated me enough to clear all HM quests currently available, WoC included.

That said, Zei Ri looks like a vending machine with a wigged human head on top. The perfect reward for a stupid questline...

Hey comon now, i was frustrated like hell, but i never once blamed the developers for my inability to progress. I will definitely put that rit to good use.

Not blaming them for my inability to progress - when it comes to WoC, I rarely got stuck - but rather for not making HM something really stimulating to me.

There are multiple ways to increase difficulty in games. Pumping up the numbers is the easiest one, and it's just what they did: HM foes are as idiot as most foes in the game, it's just that they also carry the ability to quite amusing feats, like, wiping your party in an eyeblink.

Once you've found some way to stay alive - more often than not with some trick or environmental exploit - it's just a matter of time before you overcome difficulty.

When it comes to WoC, i found the presence of variable team compositions with smart builds and sinergies quite brilliant, but it's not HM-exclusive.

I don't understand you already got DOUBLE reward for all HM quests and still asking for so called "great reward"?

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35 quests=not putting effort into the game?

Some of the people are still not getting it, nobody said HM should be toned down and you already got double reward for everything. Finish WoC NM by spending at least 3-5 hours to get a hero is fair. Do you have to finish NF/EotN to unlock some heroes? NO, then why should WoC make an exception?

We got rewarded for 10+ heroes when we finish NF or EotN, you got a question about it?

These people claimed they are not elitists, but 1 sec later they are saying spend at least 3-5 hours finish NM WoC is not putting effort.

As i said before even if the rewards were 10x higher it probably wouldn't make up for the lost time.

Now lets go at this by phases:
1)NF was made to be centered around heroes so they should be easily unlocked for obvious purposes. Only razah as an additional quest since he's not exactly directly related to the story.

2)The main EotN heroes are also all related to the story progress and the other still need some kind of work to get.

3)Regarding WoC: 35 quests is putting effort and you're rewarded an hero for it. In NM you get an assassin which is pretty much useless and in HM you get a rit which can be abused and hence all the ruckus in this thread.
The main reason of this thread is not that WoC HM is hard, or too hard as some apparently claim, but that it takes more time and effort to actually get the rit hero after the useless assassin.
We already have enough firepower from all the other easily obtainable heroes so use them to get the rit that you all seek.

4)I don't know exactly how you define elitist but i see myself as a casual old player. With all this i'm not saying you didn't put effort on those 3-5h you spent on WoC NM but i think Zei Ri is a well deserved reward for the extra effort of doing the task in HM.
Take it as a test of your skill and you'll find a rather pleasing feeling after finally getting him the 1st time after all that work.


Couldn't say better myself. WoC can be done if people just think and are able to adapt.
Like you said, difficulty is created either by numbers, level and the enemy build (AI behavior rarely changes much).
For numbers and level it's just a question of packing a bit more defense and holding strategic advantageous position (pull groups away from each other, use building to avoid projectiles, ...).
Regarding builds it's good to know that the enemies are using some of the overpowered builds we created. Since anything that we create is to counter the mobs, now we just need to create a setup to counter our-selfs.

Then don't do it if you think it's not worth the time




NO, Jin/Sousake, Goren/Norgu, Olias, Zenmi are also optional. That makes 7 of them total.

NO, Xandra, Kahmu, Haydra and Anton got nothing to do with the main story process, that makes 4 out of 10. Also, Zei Ri is important with the main story of WoC.


Actually WoC NM already took much more time than most of the other heroes, a useless sin hero is not good enough as reward.

Zei Ri should not be require more than 10 hours per char to unlock it's simple.

We're playing semantics now just because i didn't point some heroes...
Yes some NF heroes are optional but easy to get for the reason stated before.
If you want me to state the obvious i should also correct that Olias and Zenmai aren't NF heroes, they're multi campaign and since they're not directly story related they also need a side quest.


This time you probably didn't read everything i clearly state that some heroes require extra work to get, i just didn't point them.

QUOTE=Slowpokeking;5649802]
Actually WoC NM already took much more time than most of the other heroes, a useless sin hero is not good enough as reward.

Zei Ri should not be require more than 10 hours per char to unlock it's simple.[/QUOTE]

Why shouldn't Zei Ri need all that time to unlock?
This is the final part of the game, the least we could hope for is rewards matching the effort.
NM reward is useless and HM is not and you said it should be the other way around, seems logic... (/end sarcasm)

The only thing i can agree is with the 10h per char part. 10h to unlock him the 1st time it's not a problem, but for every other char after that i completely agree that we need some changes.

Zei Ri is related to the main story, why should he require HM to unlock? That does not make sense if you want to talk about the story. I look at all other heroes and it's fair to say spend 3-5 hours finish WoC to get Zei Ri is totally reasonable.

No other hero require HM, both Xandra and Razah don't require that much time.

Well, guess that makes him special then huh? Perhaps he isn't intended to be mass unlocked on all your alts? Perhaps at this stage in the game one would hope you have a main character for a larger portion of content? If you really must have him on all your characters, then you really must be prepared to go through it all again. Remember, no one is forcing you to get it on every character you have. Hell, even the way titles work is that you put the effort on one focused character, not on every single slot you own.

Exactly. Was just about to say something close to that.

Having done WoC HM on 3 characters I can say this... the quests in terms of design and difficulty were done poorly. They were either too hard for the common folk or too easy and the design flaws such as using BiP to lure the NPC from danger in the quest Cleansing Haiju Lagoon and same thing can be done with minions and the luxon NPCs in another quest later in the storyline.

Unfortunately I must /notsign because you don't just get a second rit hero, you get a hero of your choice. You only need 2 rits and this allows you to free razah from his ritualist duties to another mesmer, necro or ele.

This is nonsense. Razah has no duties he needs to be freed from. You just simply get a second dedicated rit hero. If it was a hero of my choice, it could be a fifth necromancer, a fourth mesmer, etc.

You obviously fail to see the point.

Was Swingline trying to say that by getting Zei Ri, u can make Razah the "fifth necromancer, a fourth mesmer, etc. "? xD

No, I see what you're trying to say, but it's nonsense.

How is it nonsense? Zei Ri can take Razah's ritualist duty in a hero setup then the player can choose w/e profession they wants Razah to be.

BTW this pertains to people who kept Razah as a Ritualist in their primary hero setup which is something most people did because SoS/resto and ST/shelter builds are meta hero setups.

It's nonsense because you're projecting a self-imposed restriction upon everyone who plays this game. You might as well claim that getting Miku allows me to have another Dervish hero because I can now store the two greens I store on M.O.X. on Miku instead, freeing M.O.X. for use as an actual playable hero.

I suppose that makes me the only one that simply made razah a 3rd mesmer and ran sos on a necro?

On a sidenote, perhaps it is time to close this topic.
Everything relevant has been said, and now all of us are simply repeating what we have said earlier.
Those who have Zei Ri want him to remain special,
Those that don't have Zei Ri want him to become so easy to accquire they won't require a brain for it,
And both sides won't reach any form of agreement.

I disagree with your afirmations.
I have Zei Ri on my main char and I want to see another way to get it on my other chars dispate the fact that I don't need a 3rd ritualist hero, the fact that I don't use 3 paragons heroes didn't stopped me to do wik on all of my pve chars. WoC is boring for me and having to do it in nm and hm to get Zei Ri is just crazy from my point of view. I have no problem on doing WoC in nm or hm (but only one of them not both of them) on the rest of my chars.

********** (here ends my answer to Wielder Of Magic, to avoid some potential misunderstandings)

I consider WoC and WiK as campaigns (from my point of view wiki consider wrong those quests as secondary and the arguments i saw to sustain the idea that those quests should be secondary are completly stupid again from my point of view) and compared to Prophecies, Nightfall, Factions, Eye in WoC i have to do the entire chain in hm until i got to the quest i want to do (and the bad part is that i'm forced to do the entire chain to get to last quest to get Zei Ri).

There is just no other hero that require you do to a quest in HM to get it, not to mention that in Zei Ri case there is not only 1 quest to do in HM there are 35 quests to do in HM.

There should be a balance between the reward and the effort required to do that quest and WoC has quests that are completly broken when it comes to balance the reward and the effort required to do it:

- Cantha Courier Crisis (HM) damn hard to do it (at least as a caster), if you don't believe me then try to do it in HM as a caster without using a single consumable and then come and post here how many time you failed and how much time it took you to do it (you count the time lost while failing also) with a ridiculous low reward: 5k exp, 2p, 2x Imperial Commendation
or
- When Kappa Attack (HM) damn hard to do it with a ridiculous low reward: 5k exp, 2p, 2x Imperial Commendation

compare to:

- Family Matters (HM) extremely easy to do it with a better reward as the 2 above: 5k exp, 2p, 1xImperial Commendation, 1xImperial Guard Requisition Order (better reward cause 1xImperial Guard Requisition Order = 3 xMinisterial Commendation = ~3x2k=6k > 1x Imperial Commendation= ~300g (I use the lowest price for Ministerial Commendation and the highst price for Imperial Commendation based on argos-soft) )

or if you want a quest from main chain:

- Ministry of Oppression (HM) you only need to run so the only thing u might have to do it is to micro fallback on 1 hero with a way way better reward then any of then 3 above quests: 5k exp, 2p, 1xImperial Commendation, 2xImperial Guard Requisition Order

You might say what's with the crap about the quest rewards. My point is that they didn't balanced the dificulty of quests and the rewards. If you ask me a player will give up on trying to do Cantha Courier Crisis (HM) and When Kappa Attack (HM) due to the fact that in the end it will not get a decent reward and same will happen with WoC in HM the effort required to do the entire quests chain to get Zei Ri make it not attractive (I don't talk here about player that can spend 100-200k without a problem on cons, items for them for their heroes, cause those player are not many and are actually exceptions I talk about average player that in my opinion should be able to do the entire content of the game (and the average player will not be able to do it cause: 1) the hero he has don't have decent builds (he needs more then decent builds to do it only with heroes in hm) 2) some of the hero he has are don't have the right runes/items (and he will kinda need an almost perfect rune/items combination) 3) he can't find people to do the quests (quests that he fails to do with his heroes; and to be honest this last problem is the most important of all cause GW is not an offline rpg it's an online game and you supposed to play with player not with npcs as you ca do in offline rpgs) ))

My personal opinion is that we have several categories of players and I will name some:
1) elitist players that don't really care about the others and cause of this they think that only above average players should be able to do the entire game content (if posible only if he can do it it's ok more profit for him, someone that don't care about others care about his profit) (they will not really admit it but this is what they actually think)
2) elitist players that will notice if some parts are hard, the rewards are not really balanced and will say it hoping they will not be ignored (they will know that the above category will not be happy about what they said but they got used to be ofended by the above category)
3) above average players but not elitist they will notice that the quests are hard but will not be sure if the quests are to hard from design or only to hard for them (we can argue here as much as you want they are above average players and not elitist so they managed to understand that some quests are just to hard for them)
4) average players that will say quests are hard for them, they will not really be able to say right why the quests are to hard for them (basicaly cause in some cases they will just not realise that the team setup is bad)
5) under average players (no need to say something here)

I think you are still supposed to do HM with player teams who have pve skills and that is what everything is balanced for. Heroes really don't compare and are just an emergecy measure added to the game because Anet underestimated peoples desire to solo. It's the main design flaw GW has since day one. Of course dealing with lots of AOE is going to be hard if you always need to interrupt your attack to flag your ball of heroes away. Unless you are some kind of micromanaging god some HM quests will never go smooth with a full AI team.

Ive never seen a bunch of cry babies over a hero that you have to do WoC in HM for. Seriously, you all need to actually grow up and play the game. You know why you have to do WoC in HM? to get a challenge in the game. Im not going to do WoC in HM just to get two Dragon Tears, im glad they put Zei Ri as a hero because it makes me realize that i worked hard to get him. If you guys want to keep crying over it, i insist you uninstall the game because life doesn't revolve around what you want. I hope i dont see people like you in GW2 because i dont wanna see in guild wars guru 2 'Omg they should fix this quest cus its too hard to do by myself'. You want a challenge? players wanted a challenge after WiK. And so arenanet gave us one. Dont take out MM out of MMO. You join a party with your friends and do WoC HM with them if you cant seem to do it yourself. Theres nothing stopping you guys from doing WoC HM. It has great rewards like rubies and sapphires, and a cool hero who has a customized green weapon at the end. now stop QQing and play the game.

Just checked all the towns/outposts from where you can go do WoC quests there was exactly 1 player looking for an WoC quest: Raid on Kaineng Center HM.

Someone said about go and play with your friends but well what u can do when u look at your friends list and you see that they are never online, you looked for an active & helpfull guild for 3 years and never found one, you tried to make an guild and you saw how people leave dispate the fact that you help them and as I said above people are not looking for WoC quests. You can say post in this forum, well you think selfish cause that don't solve the big problem, most players don't even know about this forum. And regarding posting in this forum I don't see a single reply in this topic http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...t10503313.html just an example how posting in this forum may actually have no result.

L.E.:
People never learned the real effect of discrimination, not even when ha died cause well we don't want u cause u are not r5, r7, r10 but we have no problem to wait hours to find one r10, the real effect of discrimination killed the game "that build is bad change it or kick" without saying what is bad without giving an advice on how to change it and i can go on with "show rank", "show stones" and so on. You can see the discrimination when reading post in this topic also you see how people actually sugest that not everybody should be able get Zei Ri (cause reading several posts in this topic this is what I understood: people want to see how others are not able to get Zei Ri and find it right that other are not able to get Zei Ri).

Heroes were also created for the Hero Battles format. Heroes are an extension of the henchmen, which were designed so players could choose to play more effectively with (good) players or alone if none were present. Call it(AI team) a design flaw if you want, but many will disagree, because they would not have played as long or at all. Heroes were not an emergency measure.

Your sentence is so true and yet so damn sad...sometimes I forget how stupidly things are balanced around a bunch of stupid op pve skills...but these things take me back to reality.
You know, there's still a lot of people who consider pve skills on par with consumables on the exploit side, so I think the problem lies more in not using those two things than heroing rather than grouping, even if persons are better than AI anyway.
-end of a quite OT rambling sorry-

As someone said before, this doesn't hold true at all.

I have Zei Ri, but I'd have liked it if I got him before I started on the HM quests. I'd have done the HM quests anyway. (I make a point of doing everything there is to do on my main and some things on spare characters if it's something I enjoy doing again.) Now that I finished WoC on my main, what am I going to do with Zei Ri? I'd have liked to replace Xandra with Zei on my HM playthrough, to see his combat and idle chat lines, and just to see something new in general.

But no, I get him after I complete the only content I'm interested in playing on my main, and if I want to see him in action, I'm going to have to play through content I already completed years ago. And don't get me wrong, there is still content I enjoy playing, but I do that on alt characters that haven't done it before.

Wouldn't the same hold true for Razah? A hero that was only attainable after completing NF. Lets be honest, if the complaint is that you can't use the hero through HM, what would you do with the hero once you completed HM WoC anyway? You may be a rare exception, if you only play general content once and never return to do anything there again.

Not really, there was still NF HM to go through, and most importantly, GW was still 'alive' back then, in the sense that we had significant new content to look forward to. (Which turned out to be nothing much beside EotN, but still, the point stands.)

Nothing. But at least I'd have done something. Anyway, it's just stupid to award us with a hero at the very end. A hero is a tool to be used in play, not a prestige thing you should get when the credits start rolling. A monument would be a more proper reward, if you feel a special reward is needed at all, like we got for Kanaxai, Urgoz, Mallyx, etc.

You'd be surprised. I know plenty of people that prefer starting new characters when they complete what they want to complete on their existing characters.

And those who can afford merc slots don't really care either way. Even though I don't need Zei Ri, I still think that Zei Ri should be opened up after doing NM for people just like what they have done for Thackeray in WiK.

People with real world money can already afford to create the team that they want. ANet should provide an alternative for those who can't afford to buy merc slots, the alternative of the same amount of "power" in the game. This has always been the design philosophy in the GW that I know of, not to grant an in-game advantage for real world money. They should only grant cosmetic advantage from money, not game playing advantage.

It is just silly to see people fight over a rit hero like that when people like me can already equip all my characters with a new rit merc if I choose to without all these grind and quarrels. I think everyone should be allowed to create their own "dream" team like I do, at least after playing through the content ONCE.

Since I have 20 playable characters, can you imagine how long it would take for me to get Zei Ri on all of them? I have to first complete NM to get Miku then complete them again in HM to get Zei Ri, then repeat on all the characters. This is just too much grind just to form my "dream" hero team for all my characters which is why I never regretted my decision to buy merc slots even after Zei Ri became available as a hero. Besides, I also have 4 mesmer heroes in my team but that is another issue altogether...

It's not fair, why should he require 10x times than others? Razah was not different but ANET chose to change it, same for Zei Ri.

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WOW, finish WOC NM does not require brain(and at least 3-5 hours)? Then all other heroes don't require brain to get.

If that's not elitist, I don't know what is.

Its the simple truth.
Before 7 heroes all heroes were easy to obtain, brainlessly, and after 7 heroes you needed even less of a brain to get the few heroes u were still missing.
And sorry to break it to you but woc does not require a brain in NM since you can just load a random meta build ( we all know "meta" builds aren't top of the line) and then leeroy in without micro ( and thats no false claim as for woc NM I did that myself).
Only Hardmode is challenging to a certain extent.

So, no WoC NM does not require a brain.
There is nothing elitist about stating that fact.

So stop being so butthurt.

That's totally nonsense, WoC NM is not hard for sure, but not easier(a bit more difficult) than the main campaigns and require 3-5 hours, I will say it's more difficult than most of the PVE stuff in NM. You don't even have full party in some of the quests. Not everyone load meta build, I don't do it. When it just came out there is no walkthrough.

So, stop saying WoC NM does not require a brain just because you think that way. And most of the other heroes got less difficulty than that.

Not everyone got all 4 campaigns.

Not everyone load meta builds.

Not everyone go through WoC leeroyly.