We aren't really going far now, it would be nice to stop having posts with people who keep saying the opposite without really valuable arguments( " i'm sure " , " i don't like" isn't an argument). Then, it will turn into the same , people will go on with troll posts, the last post will be entirely right and noone will post after.
I think the thread should be renamed, except if i didn't understood the OP point. I guess it's about being able to do something in PvP, so it should more likely be renamed to " Heroes Somewhere For PvP". If the idea is just about replacing 4 henchmen by 4 heroes, the idea won't lead anywhere since it won't change anything towards activity( still need to find other humans anyway), and the thread should be closed..
bring back HEROs to pvp
Missing HB
MithranArkanere
The problem was NOT what heroes couldn't do as well as players. It was what heroes could do way better than player.
It is irrelevant that a player can do some things better than heroes, if heroes still have several things which they do way better than most players (players not using skill bots, that is).
That problem is still there, and it will probably be, specially since they (supposedly) improved hero AI to make them use more skills better. So heroes won't go back anytime soon.
Heroes were supposed to fill gaps. But people use them instead for what they can do better.
It is irrelevant that a player can do some things better than heroes, if heroes still have several things which they do way better than most players (players not using skill bots, that is).
That problem is still there, and it will probably be, specially since they (supposedly) improved hero AI to make them use more skills better. So heroes won't go back anytime soon.
Heroes were supposed to fill gaps. But people use them instead for what they can do better.
Missing HB
We could also use the same argument about facerolling PvE content then.. But like you mentionned, the problem is filling gaps on empty hours..
superraptors
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jeydra
Auron, posts like that that claim "everyone who did PvP on a regular basis" wanted the removal of heroes evidently exclude me from doing PvP on a regular basis, even though three years ago I played like 9 hours a day or something ... also I know plenty of people who quit because of a lack of opponents. Some friends and I even tried making a guild named "Awaiting a worthy opponent once" as a lament, but the name had already been taken.
This post hit the bull's eye. |
the 'new' people who started pvp late, started in an era where heroes was used as the norm.
Quote:
| also I know plenty of people who quit because of a lack of opponents |
lack of people because the 'people' got bored and that is all there is to it.
the "bored people" would rather stop playing then play heroway bullshit all day. its not just heroes they got bored of(although a major factor), they get bored because of repetitive, stale formats & balancing.
people aren't just going to suddenly return even if the best changes are made to pvp.
Jeydra
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by superraptors
how did you manage 9 hours a day in 2009 when pvp already started to die after 07 drastically.
the 'new' people who started pvp late, started in an era where heroes was used as the norm. |
Quote:
|
you think? lack of people because the 'people' got bored and that is all there is to it. the "bored people" would rather stop playing then play heroway bullshit all day. its not just heroes they got bored of(although a major factor), they get bored because of repetitive, stale formats & balancing. people aren't just going to suddenly return even if the best changes are made to pvp. |
EDIT: Oh yeah I just played a 3-round AT and played zero games, big whoop. Do you think we really prefer to do nothing for 80 minutes as opposed to facing heroes?
Daesu
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
The problem was NOT what heroes couldn't do as well as players. It was what heroes could do way better than player.
|
If these noobs can't even beat a stupid computer AI such as this, what chance do they have against good players? These must be the same people who even have problems beating PvE content since PvE monsters use the same AI.
Missing HB
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Daesu
That is because most people don't use their brains. I beat heroes easily simply by going behind a wall, they wont even know when they are not hitting you. The problem is, heroes are TOO EASY to beat in pvp.
If these noobs can't even beat a stupid computer AI such as this, what chance do they have against good players? These must be the same people who even have problems beating PvE content since PvE monsters use the same AI. |
Unfortunately, what people( not me) are debating about is how boring facing heroes is. Something that can be understandable, although it's not much diferent from facing the same build and tactic over and over. That's why some suggested to have codex arena only with heroes..
MithranArkanere
AI doesn't detect properly when they are blocked. They sometimes move to some other location to try and hit you, but that's rather rare, so using projectile spells and attacks with heroes and henchmen in PvP is not a good idea.
But that is irrelevant.
As I said before, their flaws were not the reason to remove them.
It was their strengths. They DO have strengths.
Give them a spammable build that does not rely on using skills in a certain order, and that can't be blocked by walls, and they'll use it better than the average player.
If you can still use that build better than them, congratulations, you are better than the average player, but that still doesn't change anything.
No matter how many flaws they still have, and how easy it may be to beat them in average, GW is a game with HUGE gaps between "the worst builds" and "the best builds". And the best builds you could give to certain heroes were too much.
It doesn't matter how bad the bad builds were.
But that is irrelevant.
As I said before, their flaws were not the reason to remove them.
It was their strengths. They DO have strengths.
Give them a spammable build that does not rely on using skills in a certain order, and that can't be blocked by walls, and they'll use it better than the average player.
If you can still use that build better than them, congratulations, you are better than the average player, but that still doesn't change anything.
No matter how many flaws they still have, and how easy it may be to beat them in average, GW is a game with HUGE gaps between "the worst builds" and "the best builds". And the best builds you could give to certain heroes were too much.
It doesn't matter how bad the bad builds were.
Daesu
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
AI doesn't detect properly when they are blocked. They sometimes move to some other location to try and hit you, but that's rather rare, so using projectile spells and attacks with heroes and henchmen in PvP is not a good idea.
But that is irrelevant. As I said before, their flaws were not the reason to remove them. It was their strengths. They DO have strengths. Give them a spammable build that does not rely on using skills in a certain order, and that can't be blocked by walls, and they'll use it better than the average player. If you can still use that build better than them, congratulations, you are better than the average player, but that still doesn't change anything. No matter how many flaws they still have, and how easy it may be to beat them in average, GW is a game with HUGE gaps between "the worst builds" and "the best builds". And the best builds you could give to certain heroes were too much. It doesn't matter how bad the bad builds were. |
We face the SAME AI in PvE, if the AI is too "intelligent" for you to beat, then you should just drop PvP, go back to PvE, and learn how to beat them first before attempting to beat other players. Predictable AI like that can be easily fooled if you are experienced.
I just find it funny when people exaggerate how frightening and "smart" the monster AI is. The monster AI is so bad that they have to "cheat" to bring the monster levels to >20 so that they can be of some challenge, hero levels however, are capped at 20. Comon, compared to good players who can strategize and adapt, the stupid AI is easy peasy. If they can't even beat PvE (i.e. what the game AI actually is) then don't bother to PvP.
Reverend Dr
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Daesu
Predictable AI like that can be easily fooled if you are experienced.
|
They apply protective spells including weapons with a reaction time that is simply not possible for a human to achieve, the AI predictably prots every spike with higher than normal efficiency.
That is the old tease hero bar. Interrupts and weapon spells, nothing more. Where is the "predictability" of the AI that we can exploit?
The stupid AI in PvE is less about the AI being stupid while being more about Anet making terrible skill selections for the monsters.
superraptors
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
The predictable AI, predictably interrupts my 1/4 skills with no margin of error. It cannot be faked out, unlike even the interrupt bots that people have run which can be faked out.
They apply protective spells including weapons with a reaction time that is simply not possible for a human to achieve, the AI predictably prots every spike with higher than normal efficiency. That is the old tease hero bar. Interrupts and weapon spells, nothing more. Where is the "predictability" of the AI that we can exploit? The stupid AI in PvE is less about the AI being stupid while being more about Anet making terrible skill selections for the monsters. |
MithranArkanere
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Daesu
[...]
|
AI can SEE your skill bar, HP, Energy, effects you have on and your weapon equipped.
They KNOW your skills. They will often ignore the "lowest threat" skills like flare and save their interrupts for the "highest threat" skills in your bar like meteor shower. 'Faking out' is sometimes useless against heroes and HM enemies because of that.
When HM enemies are easy to beat it's because things like they not having "the best build" they could have, they not having healing and support as good as yours or you outnumbering them with party size, minions and/or spirits. Not because using 'PvP strategies and techniques' against them.
The reason why they replaced heroes with henchmen instead removing AI party members altogether from PvE was the builds that exploited the AI.
Jeydra
Why didn't you guys whine for nerfs to hero AI instead of removing them completely then?
superraptors
cuz the point is the majority of the veteran pvpers didn't want to play against repetitive 'AI' shit, its not competitive, period.
Daesu
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
The predictable AI, predictably interrupts my 1/4 skills with no margin of error. It cannot be faked out, unlike even the interrupt bots that people have run which can be faked out.
|
Furthermore, I have also pvp with human interrupters who can interrupt with deadly speed and AI DOES miss with interrupts sometimes so their interrupts are not always successful.
If heroes are so impossible to beat like you guys said, then we must be SUPERB players to be able to beat level 20 to 30 monsters in HM with their even faster casting, and attack speeds! Are you saying PvEers > PvPers? Because fighting the AI IS PvE which you seem to have problems beating.
I think you guys should post a thread in "Questions and Answers" on how to beat the game AI. Many PvEers would be happy to help you there.
@superraptors: That is a different issue than was brought up. The issue in discussion right now is that the hero AI is too difficult to beat in PvP. And I am sure you didn't interview all the veteran pvpers.
Missing HB
We should change the topic to " allow players to have 3 henchs to codex ". It's not like anyone here will change his opinion anyway, although players against heroes don't show so many arguments...
Fact is the game is going to be farmed by bots and syncers in a few months when GW2 will be out, and we need at least 1 format to have easy activity on GW1 and that could bring back players from time to time.
I'm logging on GW sometimes, and i rarely see any team in codex or HA when it's not quest day( and even when it is, there will be opponents on euro evenings only..). Plus, like Jeydra mentionned, GvG tournaments tend to get boring( and long) when there is noone to face between rounds apart of a bunch of cheaters on hunter's isle.
I'm not even going to mention Alliance Battles..
Fact is the game is going to be farmed by bots and syncers in a few months when GW2 will be out, and we need at least 1 format to have easy activity on GW1 and that could bring back players from time to time.
I'm logging on GW sometimes, and i rarely see any team in codex or HA when it's not quest day( and even when it is, there will be opponents on euro evenings only..). Plus, like Jeydra mentionned, GvG tournaments tend to get boring( and long) when there is noone to face between rounds apart of a bunch of cheaters on hunter's isle.
I'm not even going to mention Alliance Battles..
Reverend Dr
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Daesu
I'm a troll
|
If your human interrupters are good enough to be compared to a bot, then they are botting.
And again, the monster bars in PvE are atrocious. I'd love to see every group in PvE have a tease bot in the middle of it. That would be absolutely hilarious.
There were two major problems with hero bars. Firstly, there was almost no variance. There were 2-3 builds that were good on heroes those were all that was being run. And since a team must base themselves around the heroes there was almost no variance in team builds between teams that ran heroes. Secondly, heroes play effectively better than a large number of players. This is what we have been discussing. Many bad teams got carried by heroes. They never learned how to play, they never got better, they just added gwen and dunkoro. We're not getting better since we are effectively playing against AI and they aren't getting better since they rely upon it. Its incredibly unhealthy for the game.
superraptors
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Daesu
Then why did you cast your crucial spell when you know you are going to be interrupted? Why can't you just cast something else and let them waste their interrupt before casting your crucial spell?
Furthermore, I have also pvp with human interrupters who can interrupt with deadly speed and AI DOES miss with interrupts sometimes so their interrupts are not always successful. @superraptors: That is a different issue than was brought up. The issue in discussion right now is that the hero AI is too difficult to beat in PvP. And I am sure you didn't interview all the veteran pvpers. |
no one can rupt 1/4 skills unless:
1. botting
2. random
3. pre-emptive
4. you can see into the future
Quote:
|
If heroes are so impossible to beat like you guys said, then we must be SUPERB players to be able to beat level 20 to 30 monsters in HM with their even faster casting, and attack speeds! Are you saying PvEers > PvPers? Because fighting the AI IS PvE which you seem to have problems beating.
|
Jeydra
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by superraptors
im 100% sure you never played tombs or even gvg when heroes were rampant.
no one can rupt 1/4 skills unless: 1. botting 2. random 3. pre-emptive 4. you can see into the future |
People have DShot Infuse before, and heroes cannot interrupt 1/4s spells on demand. And you have not addressed why the solution is not simply to nerf hero interrupts.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Reverend_Dr
And again, the monster bars in PvE are atrocious. I'd love to see every group in PvE have a tease bot in the middle of it. That would be absolutely hilarious.
|
superraptors
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jeydra
5. lucky
People have DShot Infuse before, and heroes cannot interrupt 1/4s spells on demand. And you have not addressed why the solution is not simply to nerf hero interrupts. Even if every group in PvE had a Tease bots they'll still die easily. You don't wan to challenge Daesu on this. I'm 99% certain he has more knowledge about PvE than you. |
ok lets say we nerf heroes to oblivion, are you still going to enjoy steam rolling ai and feel satisfied?(im guessing yes) if so you should stick to pve because that is basically the same thing.
also im 100% sure you started pvping in 2009 and onwards where the game has already deteriorated.
Jeydra
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by superraptors
5. lucky? being lucky and random is the same thing.
ok lets say we nerf heroes to oblivion, are you still going to enjoy steam rolling ai and feel satisfied?(im guessing yes) if so you should stick to pve because that is basically the same thing. also im 100% sure you started pvping in 2009 and onwards where the game has already deteriorated. |
If I respond to you more I'll be getting trolled (in fact I already am getting trolled - this is like the third time in this thread you've claimed you know more about me + my friends than I do). Whatever.
Missing HB
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
...
|
You can already have 2-4 henchs in parties today, replacing them by heroes won't do anything towards inactivity..
Then, if i guess dealing with a party of 7 henchs won't be luch a matter vs a team of 8 humans.. If the guy is good with controlling henchs, he has a chance. If the guy isn't, he will get facerolled.
And i think we should seriously stop talking about the past... It used to be at a different time, with more activity, diferent metagame, etc...
RA is terrible for years and is still played today. Same for FA, although it's completly flawed. Yet, those formats that are still balanced are mostly inactive( i'm right now alone in HA id1 although it's quest day...)
bhavv
I stopped playing HA when they removed hero teams as it was no longer fun for me. I used to highly enjoy just being able to add 3 heroes and two henchies and clicking enter battle and winning a few rounds. I managed to win the final level too with 1 other player and 4 heroes, which was in fact the single only time I've ever won HoH and I'm rank 7.
I hate waiting to find a group. I hate the elitism from other players. I don't mind losing as long as I can simply make up any randomway and just go go go and enjoy playing the damn game. That's why I only RA now because there's no waiting for a group. You just go in, click enter battle and you're right into the fun. Even if I lose I've still enjoyed playing because I've gotten to play a format that I enjoy. I thoroughly despised HB because the flag capture stuff was crap. I just want fast and easy all hero teams PVP and one that lets me progress my hero title.
I hate waiting to find a group. I hate the elitism from other players. I don't mind losing as long as I can simply make up any randomway and just go go go and enjoy playing the damn game. That's why I only RA now because there's no waiting for a group. You just go in, click enter battle and you're right into the fun. Even if I lose I've still enjoyed playing because I've gotten to play a format that I enjoy. I thoroughly despised HB because the flag capture stuff was crap. I just want fast and easy all hero teams PVP and one that lets me progress my hero title.
Lycan Nibbler
replace pvp with hero battles! 
tealspikes
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by superraptors
no one can rupt 1/4 skills unless: 1. botting 2. random 3. pre-emptive 4. you can see into the future |
superraptors
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by tealspikes
Heroes nor bots can interrupt 1/4 skills. 'Rupts take 1/4 seconds to cast, so even if it is activated immediately after the opponent's 1/4 cast skill, it will miss. What most people experience is lucky collateral 'rupts from CoF/Tease. This is easily observed, even with Panic in pve many monsters get their 1/4 casts interrupted.
|
Auron of Neon
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by tealspikes
Heroes nor bots can interrupt 1/4 skills. 'Rupts take 1/4 seconds to cast, so even if it is activated immediately after the opponent's 1/4 cast skill, it will miss. What most people experience is lucky collateral 'rupts from CoF/Tease. This is easily observed, even with Panic in pve many monsters get their 1/4 casts interrupted.
|
It doesn't make sense, but not making sense doesn't stop it from happening.
Surgo
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Auron of Neon
It's possible for heroes and bots to hit them. They do it all the time. The ghostly hero NPC in halls dshots quarter second casts fairly regularly, and that even has travel time.
It doesn't make sense, but not making sense doesn't stop it from happening. |
Missing HB
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Auron of Neon
It's possible for heroes and bots to hit them. They do it all the time. The ghostly hero NPC in halls dshots quarter second casts fairly regularly, and that even has travel time.
|
Let's assume we had teams of mesmers with 7 rupts . Basically, you'd say the wouldn't let the opponent use any skill. Pretty strange those teams didn't rule the ladder in HB isn't it ? Pretty strange that there wasn't any guild using it in GvG isn't it ?
So, we come to say that npc's are rupting some skills and not others. If they were failing half interupts, everyone would say " waaa npcs suck, can they get better?? ", which would lead to everyone complaining again...
side note : heroes were removed from PvP about 3 years ago, how do you know that heroes are " doing it all the time " ???? I thought talking about the past was not making sense..
Reverend Dr
The ghostly misses rupts because of flight time. I've seen the ghost d-shot infuse on several occasions. He is still a beast. If you were running rspike in HB then you were microing your heroes and they won't use other skills until after they are being microed. This also brings up another reason to avoid large numbers of heroes, back during the 3 hero day it wasn't uncommon for someone to bring three heroes with spike skills and micro a perfect spike every time, with more heroes it could only become more obnoxious.
Heroes very rarely miss spell based interrupts and only then because the interrupt is used immediately after another spell such that the computer thinks it has enough time but with aftercast it does not.
We are talking about the way heroes acted in PvP, while it has been a long time since heroes have been in PvP, to think that these things have just fixed themselves is absurd.
Heroes very rarely miss spell based interrupts and only then because the interrupt is used immediately after another spell such that the computer thinks it has enough time but with aftercast it does not.
We are talking about the way heroes acted in PvP, while it has been a long time since heroes have been in PvP, to think that these things have just fixed themselves is absurd.
Jeydra
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Auron of Neon
It's possible for heroes and bots to hit them. They do it all the time. The ghostly hero NPC in halls dshots quarter second casts fairly regularly, and that even has travel time.
It doesn't make sense, but not making sense doesn't stop it from happening. |
superraptors
im pretty sure any one who played backline back then had their infuse or rof dshotted multiple times.
tealspikes
Yup that happens when you queue up spells as backline love to do. Ghostly misses the Woh due to flight time or other factors as Reverend mentioned and hits the patient came right after. I seen it happen soo so much.
Auron of Neon
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by tealspikes
Yup that happens when you queue up spells as backline love to do. Ghostly misses the Woh due to flight time or other factors as Reverend mentioned and hits the patient came right after. I seen it happen soo so much.
|
And as other people have mentioned, he hits infuses and stuff too. It's not a fluke, his AI is just really that good; too good, honestly. And heroes were the same with interrupts. That's why people ran heroes with 3-4 interrupts and enchant removal or smites - and why PvP against heroes was such a shitfestival. People didn't try to run balanced builds on them, they ran gimmicks that exploited the ridiculous AI. Trying to juke out a human playing ranger by cancelcasting and forcing them to waste dshot was fun, quality gameplay; getting half my skills interrupted (no matter what I did) was not.
superraptors
pretty much what auron said and they basically know your client-side commands in an instant.
also
heroes know exactly what you are doing(pretty much what some bots did showing who was being targeted), if you played warrior during tease heroes were rampant every time you targeted a new person(even without calling it) within 1 second a weapon spell would be applied on to him/her.
also
heroes know exactly what you are doing(pretty much what some bots did showing who was being targeted), if you played warrior during tease heroes were rampant every time you targeted a new person(even without calling it) within 1 second a weapon spell would be applied on to him/her.
Jeydra
I got a question for you Auron. PDrain casts in 1/4s, not including Fast Casting. DShot casts in 1/2s, not including flight time. How can the Ghostly Hero possibly reflex PDrain?
Missing HB
Let's just bring back heroes in PvP for a week and see the results on activity i guess... We'll be able to see also if heroes are so OP as they're supposedly are...
I'm sorry, but with all due respect, i'm 99.9% sure i used heroes in PvP probably at least 5 times longer than anyone here, and i won't trust someone who just makes arguments based on the result of a few hours against heroes...
And seriously, stop using the " fun " argument... It does happen when it gets repetitive and boring, which is the case for anything in the game today... You can also add the fairness problem( syncers/cheaters/1v1 halls/ dc's at 0.01 in mat/etc...)
I'm sorry, but with all due respect, i'm 99.9% sure i used heroes in PvP probably at least 5 times longer than anyone here, and i won't trust someone who just makes arguments based on the result of a few hours against heroes...
And seriously, stop using the " fun " argument... It does happen when it gets repetitive and boring, which is the case for anything in the game today... You can also add the fairness problem( syncers/cheaters/1v1 halls/ dc's at 0.01 in mat/etc...)
Auron of Neon
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jeydra
I got a question for you Auron. PDrain casts in 1/4s, not including Fast Casting. DShot casts in 1/2s, not including flight time. How can the Ghostly Hero possibly reflex PDrain?
|
Jeydra
The mathematics say it is impossible. You can't argue with mathematics, unless you are implying that either 1) the Ghostly Hero has the ability to read your mind and act 1/4s before you do, or 2) skills don't work the way they should on AI.
I've had 1/4s casts interrupted by RA Rangers. It happens. I remember Trojan boasting once that his team spiked out rawr because he DShot Awowa's Infuse. Doesn't make him a bot or some magical mind reader.
I argue that you are selectively remembering the times when you get DShot on 1/4s casts and neglecting the times when the Ghostly DShots nothing.
I've had 1/4s casts interrupted by RA Rangers. It happens. I remember Trojan boasting once that his team spiked out rawr because he DShot Awowa's Infuse. Doesn't make him a bot or some magical mind reader.
I argue that you are selectively remembering the times when you get DShot on 1/4s casts and neglecting the times when the Ghostly DShots nothing.
DRGN
I was under the impress Ghostly knew and acted on your inputs before your character actually started using the skill or something dumb like that. The worst I've had was him dchopping an axe Bull's(Which I thought was kind of bullshit but I chalked it up to ghostly hax) and dshotting song like an asshole through a pillar I thought was obstructed. I've never had one of my 1/4s casts interrupted though since I lagged too much to play mesmer in HA 