Heroes' Ascent - Make it random

Yep, you read the topic right.

I'm sick of entering into this 'new' area and see the same builds used over and over. You bring an assassin or ritualist? They won't need you. Got a warrior using shouts? Won't take you because you *need* tiger's fury. And you must bring a pet, otherwise you lose.

So I'm making a suggestion that will probably not be very popular: Make heroes' ascent into a huge random 8 team fighting tournament, much like random arenas.

Why is this a good thing?

No more FOTM - How can you have builds like IWAY or ranger spikes or trapper spikes when you cannot organize everyone to perfection? It gets rid of the screwed up overpowered builds that *everyone* demands for. There is no diversity in heroes' ascent, only conformity.

Allows players to use their own builds - Want to be a shouting warrior? A ranger with a pet? Hell, my latest creation, the sword assassin? No one will stop you at all.

Gets rid of rank barrier - Newbs can join in with veterans, and vice versa. No more 'rank' checking. Ranking serves no other purpose but as a badge of time and creates a barrier among the community. Now new players can join the ranks of old.

Random gameplay - The problem with Heroes' ascent is everyone uses the same type of character template. That axe warrior will be the same as the last one, using tiger's fury and the deadly combo. With people able to create their own builds without some sort of mythical force to stop them (aka other players), people should expect all sorts of freaky builds to be used against them. Your team will change. You might have a lot of monks, or you might have very few, you might get that guy who specializes in interrupts, while the others specalize in enchantment stripping. There is nothing to stop you to become 'really bad' or 'really good'. A W/Mo not actually be a bad thing here.

It's quick - No more spamming "R200 mes/necro/jesus LFG". No more spending half an hour after half an hour of looking for a group that will crumble within one battle because everyone has their high horse. You get into the game QUICK, which is what a game should for 'casual gamers'

Before people say "What about organization?" There is thing game mode called GvG, go there instead if you want some organized tactics. Heroes' Ascent would be a much more interesting, diverse, and most of all CHALLENGING place to be in. It will also be quick and allow players to explore other options, instead of following the basic plain vanilla template.

Yeah, I made a thread about making one of these before, but it didn't go over too well. They should have made the new one random and kept tombs the way it was, or at least nerf iway so we have some originality in tombs.

/signed

/signed

lol nerf iway... *waits for the iway noobs to start flaming*

yeah.. i aggree that it would be fun to have an organized Tombs and a random heroes ascent or something like that... one reaon i don't do Hall of Heroes anymore is because you spend an hour forming a group, then someone has to go, and it starts all over again.

/signed

dont nerf iway its not overpowered... i do agree with the topic poster but not nerfing iway

"ZOMG IWAY is the w1n, j00 n00bs!!!!shift111!!1!"

/sarcasm

Honestly though, do you *really* want a random team in HoH match? You want to leave it up to pure, stupid luck of getting a good group to determine favor? Imagine if CA (or RA I suppose it's called now) determined favor ... I suppose you could have the option to do both (pick out your group or do "enter random") but you'd get alot of quitters on random teams that didn't end up with a monk: "ZOMG no monk, i'm outta here!", or you'd get the random teams slaughtered even worse by the organized ones ...

It's a nice idea in theory, but I don't think its practical ... feel free to tell me i'm stupid

/not signed

To the OP:

Join a guild.

"It's a nice idea in theory, but I don't think its practical ... feel free to tell me i'm stupid"

So you rather have the same thing such as IWAY or ranger spikes then diversity and a bit of challenge?

Why do you think there is such little number of people playing in tombs? New players can't get in because of rank, no one accepts unique builds, and it takes at least an hour to form a group only to watch it fall apart.

This is fun to you? Go back to WoW or EQ please.

Just so I have to follow THEIR builds ? Nice, but I'll pass. I had bad experiences with them already.

I suppose I'll rephrase: Join a good guild.

And your refusal to join a guild pretty much invalidates your argument.

"I don't want to find a good guild and play with them and eliminate all the problems I mentioned above, I want things to be my way and that's that."

Also, character attacks don't help your argument in the least.

You sound like a team player. I'm sure your guildmates considered you a wonderful asset.

If you want organized game play, there is already an option called GvG. Why do those of us who want to play in a PUBLIC area are forced to comply to your way?

That's like saying in order to join a counter-strike server, you need to find 15 people to play with you. Talk about arrogant guilds.

Bad Idea

Not signed

The game is called GUILD Wars. FYI.

Yes and there is an option for that already: Guild versus Guild. Heroes' Ascent isn't GvG, neither is Team Arena.

Nevermind the fact that GW was designed from the ground up to be a team-based game, that characters were designed to act more as pieces to a whole than anything else--as opposed to Counterstrike, where everyone can be as self-sufficient as they please, and again nevermind the fact that CS and GW shouldn't even be compared in the first place.

I think this would be a good idea, but it should be a seperate arena, and Heroe's Ascent should stay as is.

So you're saying, keep all 8-man tactics to GVG? No thanks.

/nevereversigned

This post alone shows how little you understand PvP. Rangerspike overpowered? Definately very powerfull if you run it well, but not overpowered. IWAY overpowered? LOL.

And by making it random you hope to avoid FoTMs? Have you never played in random arena? Ranger touchers, thundreclap eles, IW mesmers.... ring any bells?

Not to mention denying people of the ability to run builds makes it completely retarded. Tombs will basicly become a battle of who manages to group with the best combination of people. A team that just happens to land with 3 monks, a couple of warriors, some eles and a mesmer for example could probably take halls with very little difficulty at all. Is that skill right there? Is that being paid off for running a good build? No. Not to mention the siege of ragequitting it will cause my people who don't get good groups.

How tombs is at the moment is a bit silly. Yes IWAY is everywhere, but its far from overpowered. It is just a good build to farm the first few maps for fame, not to hold. Any decent team running something serious should not have any problem beating IWAY.

What you are suggesting will basicly turn tombs into 8 vs 8 RA, a cess-pit of horrible horrible builds and people quitting out.

Running a build of 8 random characters from people who are just playing what they feel like, is going to get you absolutely nowhere. End of discussion.

Coming from someone who very much dislikes the rank system, I still disagree. Rank does serve a purpose, it does not serve that purpose very well, but it works. If I go into tombs, it's to win. This is the reason why I do not PuG as a rule, but if I was to you are damn right I would want people over rank 3 at least. It IS an indication of how well you know tombs. Yes I could just be picking up someone who IWAY'd their rank, but it's less of a risk than taking someone who has no experience at all and will be a liability to the group.


The quality of teams would take an absolutely catastrophic nose dive to the point that nobody decent would play there anymore. Did you even consider all of the tombs guilds? The ones that get a kick out of holding halls with a decent build? Oh noes, they would all just disband and find a new game. Not to mention anyone else who likes to tomb and actually do WELL. Not just play around with solo builds and end up on a team with five monks, a paladin, a ranger with meteor shower and a stance tank.

Random arena for the win. If you don't have the time for a long game with a well planned build designed to actually have success and many consecutive wins, why even bother?

The difference between tactics in Tombs and GvG is absolutely vast. And Heroes Ascent would be much more boring, depressing and sad than it already is. Challenging? Not really. What group you mapped in on would pretty much determine your success, not playerskill. Let alone group skill, which would be non existant.

It sounds to me like you go to tombs, and stand around LFG with whatever character you decide to run that day. Eventually maybe you score an invite to a random horrible PuG that doesn't care, you go in and you get wiped by IWAY. Do not try and ruin tombs for everyone who enjoys it and takes it seriously, just because you don't seem to have the patience or skill to actually run a build with a serious group. And no, I do not mean IWAY or Rangerspike.

In short: Not a chance.

That's all fine and dandy but...

How do you explain the lack of new players in tombs?

The low number of people being involved?

The same builds being used over and over?

While it's great that they decided to stick to the plan, Anet needs to realize that this shit isn't working. Just because something sounds good on paper doesn't mean it works quite well, otherwise they wouldn't be need for nerfs.

Look at this way: I'm rank 7, have many skills unlocked, and starting to get the hang of the assassin class. Yet if I don't make a trapper, IWAY, or tainted necro, I cannot join ANY groups whatsoever. If I make a fire nuker, no one wants me. If I make a shouting warrior, no one wants me. Hell, if I make a shutdown mesmer, no one would want me.

There is hundreds of skills in this game and lots of new players interested in PvP, however they won't get to experience the joy of creating that awesome build or going through some insane battles I went through because other players are denying them this. The system is flawed. If people were really serious about organized game play, serious tactics, awesome builds, there is a place called GvG already for that specific purpose. Tombs always catered to the organized guilds, while people who are new to the game (no rank) or don't have many contacts are left aside and screwed over.

How, again, is this a good thing? Don't give me "join a guild" or "this is called guild wars" logic. Give me a real answer.

The system needs to be changed.

I'd like it if they put random 8 vs. 8 in a seperate arena, but there needs to be an organized 8 vs. 8 arena that's not just GvG. JR has a great post above me, I highly suggest you read it, excellent points.

Does random arena have king of the hill, 8 people, and relic runs? Does it reward you for kicking ass? Does it even give you fame?

ROFLCOPTER

Make the character you want to play RIGHT now. No "tainted flesh" necro or W/R with tiger's fury. Your own personal thing that you created.

Now try to find a group. Right now.

You won't.

BWE had random 8 on 8 and it was one of the most insane battles I had. Too bad they didn't put in retail.

What serious group? All the groups that are serious are running IWAY or ranger trappers.

If the game design was good, I could make my own character and play with it. Currently, I'm forbidden by the other players that I cannot play Assassin, my interrupt ranger, or numerous other builds I fooled around with.

Proof please.

Proof please.

It's called the metagame. It will shift in time.

It works fine. I certainly hear more praises than complaints. Nerfs, by the way, are for a completely different purpose and bear no weight to your argument. Nerfs occur due to unforseen strength between multiple skills--Anet only has so many playtesters, they're bound to miss some things.

GUILD GUILD GUILD

GvG and Tombs are two radically different arenas, by the way. They may seem similar (8-man tactics) but they're very, very different. Builds that work in GvG may not work at all in Tombs, and vice-versa.

Join a guild. Or stop playing. Or get over it.

Not really, no.

... am I the only one that finds this sentence absolutely hilarious? Serious groups running IWAY? You've *GOT* to be joking

That aside, once you make a few friends (or like Kakumei said, a guild) you'll have no problem at all getting a balanced or experimental group together. I never have had this issue, and my guild doesn't do tombs ... just find some folks that want to run different builds. Hey! You might even make a post on these forums asking for volunteers, and I might even join up

Oh, and never played WoW or EQ, just so you know. Assumptions can get you in trouble

All the back and forth flaming aside, I think both parties have a point. But it really shouldn't be in tombs. Look at it this way:

I am a player that likes to experiment with builds. That's why I'm leading a guild that tolerates unorthodox playing methods. We like to think up crazy things (like a "Fear me!" energy denial build, based on the UW phantoms <---that was sweet). However, where do we test a build that we intend to use for GvG? Sure, you can issue an unrated challenge to a willing guild, but how many guilds are willing/have time to help? You could try a rated match... but it's a heavy price to pay for an experiment. That's just one reason that, following your logic, tombs should stay the way it is.

Are you seriously suggesting that we give people Fame for a victory in a randomly assigned team? Talk about making Fame worth less than it already is.

I think you're whole arguement about "getting to bring the build you want" is flawed. What you would be doing is rewarding new people for playing poor builds. War/Mo's with Healing Hands don't need any more encouragement, thanks.

We ought to be rewarding people for playing good builds. For example, how quickly will a new monk in your random tombs discover that Infuse Health is a good skill? Probably never. Bottom line, your change would be a step backwards in terms of pvp skill levels as a whole.

Why not make it an option then? If they have time to make a snow event, I'm sure they can make a random 8v8 tournament.

Why not give guns to 8 year olds? Because it's dumb and doesn't help them.

In general, you shouldn't give bad options to people that aren't educated enough to make smart choices.

This is why I don't join guilds and why people leave GW.

The elitist attitude of the GW community, right here.

Read my post...

So I'm an elitist because I think Healing Hands is incredibly dumb for a warrior to bring? Because I think Infuse Health is a good skill? Because I think Gale is the best interrupt in the game? If that is the criteria, consider me an elitist then.

You can call me whatever names you want, but it doesn't change the fact that your idea is counterproductive to creating a skill based pvp experience.

It's hard to make the game skill based when new players are denied playing the game and they are forced to use ONE build.

/signed

there r many kids brains but adults flesh

ur suggestion will fix their brains.....atleast some of them

to got my rank3 i had to play as iway war and it was funny but i dont want to play iway war whole my life in this game...i have many other builds but i cant play them in tomb because i have to be 1 of iway members or spikers or balanced build which is not balanced in fact

because u have to be mesmer or kd/as war or prot with specific skills

its time to make another separated tomb arena for a random teams

i wouldnt mind having 2 tombs type places. the original tobms is where you do the favor and the nomrla tombs stuff. Hero's Ascent would be like TA, but with 8 instead, so you could still form a group, and you could still be a group of 1-3 and just hit enter and get into a team.

If you feel there are all these people with the same thinking as you, then go to tombs, and start a group.

This is my position against this idea and the reasons why. I think that a game based on randomness such as the one you describe is weak because it discourages the participation of individual players, specially those who are r9+ because those are the only ones who do not care about fame anymore(ironically). The result will be an homogeneous population of ranked people. Where all the players will belong to the 3-8 range, therefore it wouldn't be fun to play anymore because obviously there's no tangible reward.

This gameplay style you describe doesn't enforce teamwork as a winning factor. Mostly because it will take insane amounts of planning (in a very limited timeframe) to find out what the build is gonna do, who is gonna lead the strategy, get all the people into vent/ts and most definitely, what is each and everyone going to do in case of X (where X is each of the maps in the way to the HoH).

This will also bring to us the most feared fear of the well known competitions arenas, and this is: "No monk = no win". Now, the only thing I see will encourage is for everyone to bring that famously named skill "I Will Avenge You" because it's the only self-heal that gives you a competetive ofensive advantage against other teams.

And it is true that it breaks rank barriers for everyone shall have the same emote, mainly because higher ranked players will be forced to play with less ranked/more unexperienced players. Welcome to comunism (that a joke of course).

In any case, the people who has earned high ranks in this game is because they have been able, not only to create cooperative/competitive team builds, but also because they have been able to outplay other cooperative/competitive builds with them, throughout teamwork coordination and individual skill level.

I understand your concerns, that a set-in-stone gameplay style, builds and skillbars have been set in the minds of most players for a long time now and will continue to be so until the end of Guild Wars. However, it is in each of you to set up the next metagame. And Anet has given you plenty of ways to do so (faction, observer mode, fan sites like this, etc). If you don't do it, it is your own fault.

To the OP-

I need this answered with yes or no: are you basically saying lets let the noobs in with horrible builds and force the decent players to group with them.

Second this wont eliminate the rank barrier. People that are high rank will go and and say "rank plz" and if everyone isnt above a certain rank, they will quit.

You will also get people who give a ts or vent and tell people to get in to be organized. if everyone doesnt join /quit

You will get people who if they see a w/mo use mending /quit

along with many other reasons to /quit

All I see your idea doing is letting the noobs play whatever they want and not leave a tombs type options for the players that have been playing longer than the people who just joined and who know what they are doing.

/unsigned
now I saw somewhere else in this thread a comprimise: make it like TA, you can have 5 people in you group and hit enter and get put with 3 others, but still allows an organized 8 player team to play.

in that case /signed.

All i think this idea needs to work is a comprimise of both organized groups and fast groups.

I agree 100% the system of rank has to be changed. While i dk if random areanas is the way to go here but it is a good idea that shouldnt be just thrown out the window. I also agree 100% that IWAY MUST BE NERFED to allow creativity to return the the Halls. I mean all IWAY has caused is good players like myself to either drop the game or simply refuse to go tombing. Until Iway is nerfed then tombs is basically no fun and the casual gamer is basically on his own to find a r3+ group while only being r0 himself. Also id rather take a r2-3+ player who earned his deer without iway than a r9+ iway player. But i do not believe random tombs will solve the problems of rank and iway. ANet plz do something to ALLOW CREAVITITY AND FUN RETURN TO TOMBS (or hero's ascent whatever you wish to call it)

A good and a bad idea, in certain ways...
They should make different districts, for beginners (rank 0 to 1), for advanced players (rank 2-4), and so on...
Players with rank 0 will not be able to join districts with rank 2 or 4, or higher...
And players with rank 2 or higher, will not be able to join the rank 0 districts.

There are too many people that dont want to let the beginners join their party, i mean, come on. They are new, atleast give them a chance.

Anyway, this might have been suggested before, and if this is impossible, please let me know.

but then that alienates friends that are r9 and r 2, they cant play together. I wouldnt mind if they had rank assigned districts as long as they keep some districts for all ranks. I see the OPs idea working as long as they keep the original heros ascent after they add a random option to it.