Heroes' Ascent - Make it random

/ Not\signed\at\all

Boy..all the flaming. Wow.

But as someone who hates playing IWAY and is having a hard time building up the fame (I'm at 140 now after a good run with my new guild..my old guild never played HoH..not once), this isn't a bad idea. I wouldn't give fame rewards for it...keep it seperate.

But I think that a different rating system for this would be good. Base it on the ELO system of sorts. People drop? Doesn't matter. They still lose points. You'd gain/lose points depending on the combined rating of your team vs the rating of the other team. Only have one monk? Adapt. You should be focusing fire fast enough to take the other team down fairly fast.

And about builds in modern HoH, once you get above the IWAY level, things get more interesting Rainbow Spike, Wa/R's are replaced by Gale Warriors, and something that hit for the first time (and prevented us from winning HoH with a timely Blackout), Blackout warriors.

I believe that there ARE problems with the GW community right now. However, from what I see Factions should take care of quite a bit of it. Forming Alliances of guilds to get enough people together to form groups, at any time will help a big deal. It'll be hard to FIND a PUG eventually. As well, the second type of competition that'll be launched, the Alliance based Faction Wars, probably with it's own rating and how it will meld PvP and PvE will help a lot.

pls..read the topic carefully

its about another tomb arena separated of the essential one...in other words its about another random arena for 8vs8 not to be replaced by the 1st tomb arena

I used to be in a guild that only played 3 nights a week for 2 hours each play seasion (times layed out to meet work scheduels). They were a rank 208 guild last I checked. You don't have to get into random groups to get ranked. You just need to find a guild who have expirienced members, or, atleast, intelligent ones.

Also, being meek is a key factor to Guild Wars. I know alot of people have these strange, nearly religous ideals that they were born or are now in a mentally perfect state: But, please, swollow the pride and accept counsul.

I can see a random tombs, but make tombs totally random just to 'nerf' IWAY and other FoTMs?Sure, its a pain that all those people are playing as them and that's all thy want to do.
Look at it this way, though: if they weren't IWAY, they would be W/mos with Mending.

I think you got this a bit backwords. I'm sure the thread went off topic at some point, but if you didn't notice, the thread's title is: The OP also said: This is obviously a suggestion to convert the only HoH areana (Tombs is now a PvE area) into a random areana. The OP even admitted that in the reply to me.

You guys seem to think that he wants to keep tombs random. That's not what hes saying at all. He just wants an 8v8 random tournament in addition to tombs where you can fight other random 8v8 teams. Some people don't like waiting an hour to join a group and then losing in the first round. Some people don't like not being able to find a group other than iway because they are not r6+. It would just offer another arena where casual players can go and find an alternative to the usual lame random 4v4 arenas where you get minimal rewards

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at this thread and tell what he is talking about.

Heroe's Ascent is the only HoH Tournament in the game (No more Tombs. Its not comming back.) Making Heroe's Ascent random would make HoH random.

Look at the thread's name. "Heroes' Ascent - Make it random"

I'm just saying, this was the OP's original intent. Its plastered all over the place.

I think a random, seperate gateway might be fun(ny). Something you also have to take into account, though: there is only one Hall of Heroes. Random players would have to fight guild groups. Essentially 'Invite The Whole District' builds vs [pRp] or [MATH]. Whose going to win?

I think the solution to all of our problems is to 'nerf' the IWAY build, disheartening them and making them disband. Exactly like putting down a rebellion lead by peasents with angry dogs.

Hopefully, the Samurai warlords will be here after this GWWC thingy is over.

Not signed.

Make your own build, get friends, and there you go. OR, you can make a guild, get good players, and then GvG. We don't need a random Tombs/8v8.

Random arena/Team arena works well for what it is. I don't see why the same combination can't with teams of 8. Perhaps they can have a random 4 level "pre-tombs" where rank is harder to come by. This would require a better system for random matching, but would be better introduction for new players or slow guild nights. Nothing wrong with adding more options for PvP.

I really think there should be fame in GvG. There are plenty of players and guilds that play high level GvG, but are rank 2 or 3. Give players 1 fame for gvg wins, 2 for top 200 wins, 3 for top 100 wins, 4 for top 50, 5 for top 25 and 10 for top 10 wins (you get the idea). In the end, rank means nothing since a guy who got rank 6 playing an IWAY warrior could be worthless as a monk or mez.

My biggest laugh--ranked IWAY... please, what about IWAY requires me to be rank 6? I could run any of the IWAY builds while watching TV and talking on the phone (note sarcasm). Yeah, IWAY is the easiest quickest random build... there is no reason to nerf it since it has little use in high level GvG.

Yes, but IWAY has been clogging up tombs for six months now... we want something different. Being only rank 3, it takes me about half an hour just to find a non-iway build, and then another hour just to get that group going. Then when we finally get in, we face iway after iway after iway. They are even the majority in ID1 now...

Replacing Tombs/HoH/Heroes Ascent with random 8vs8 HoH is bad idea. Making separate 8vs8 arena could be a good idea. Except I can't figure out a single reason why I would want it.

I got my rank 3 just a couple days ago and I haven't had too hard time finding a group never. Finding a good group is a different story. If you want to experiment some new builds I suggest you to make team by yourself instead of trying to find a team who would accept your build without any changes in it. I see lots of people to "LFG, can be anything". Just ask them to join your team and tell them what you want them to be.

If you want to find a nice group of people to play with and can't find any guild which is exactly you want a guild to be, why you simply don't make a new guild? I tried to find guild and couldn't find a guild i wanted so i made a new one with my friend. Finding new people to new guild isn't too hard and when you have a guild you like, you don't even have to find people to test your builds. You have them in your guild.

I also love to figure out builds of my own and I have found random arenas to be excellent place to test new builds because of very low skill level. A few tries in random arena tell if my build can work or if it can't. If I can't get 5 consecutive wins there with my build it is very bad one. If it can't help random team to get those wins it won't help your team almost at all. It wont tell if it will have any success in 8vs8 but it tells it might be worth of to try it in tombs.

I kind of find iway teams to be a good thing. They absolutely owns bad builds/teams in tombs. If your team can't win iway it probably can't win any decent team. And when you make a team/build that wins iway you will most likely win your first 3-4 matches in tombs and get that 6-10 fames. And then you can play against different and better teams in tombs. Besides I find it relaxing to play iway sometimes by myself too.

To those who still think 8vs8 random arena is a good idea, think why you want it, then read my post again and if you still think you can't do things you would want to do in random 8vs8 in any existing pvp arena (including HoH and GvsG) then mayby it would actually be a good idea.

Sorry for my awful english.

giving fame for GvG's is dumb.

Fame and rank shows your experience and successfulness in HoH. so what if your good at GvGs, doesnt mean a thing if you have no idea how the HoH metagame works.

*evil grin*

reset rank...fame farmers will bitch...those playing for HoH won't really care and then make it so only winning HoH gives fame...as many have said before

Tombs is about wanting to get to HoH not get some silly number as high as possible to impress other players.

IWAY = over without having to change anything

Trapper groups(unless very skilled) = over

simple *hides in anti flame bunker*

meh...50/50...running IWAY into the first 2-3 maps over and over hardly means you're good at 8man afterall HoH is the point


GvG has guild ranking they don't need fame from tombs.

Sorry, I guess I've been out of school longer than you and must have forgotten what a real debate is (of course, I can't really prove that):-)

I don't recall pausing a debate to write up a proof, but again, I'm no expert debater either. It always seemed to me like it was just a bunch of people arguing their opinions before an audience with judges/moderators calling bullshit on things that may have gotten out of hand (especially informal forums). Remember, presidential debates have been won without having to show proof during that debate. Its a matter of logical persuasion. You may be thinking of a lawyer in a courtroom (though I have no proof that may be the case :-).

Of course in a good debate, all parties are supposed to be non-deceptive, which is where the moderators come in. After all, they've nixed many of those threads concerning the supposed underworld shield because they thought it may be fake. In that case, they said they would re-open the thread if there was proof. Again, they are the moderators/judges (people who do call bullshit on really outlandish claims/flamebait). If you think the OP is wrong/dead wrong, offer the reason why you believe he is wrong. You offered nothing to the conversation for either side really.

I believe that he may be exaggerating a bit. I think I made my opinion clear in a prior post concerning this (concerning both sides actually). After reading the forum, I believe that enough people have posted opposing opinions to effectively reign in his extreme view of the tournament system, all without requiring an html link to proof. You, my fellow debater, have wasted the readers time with two non-conductive (to the subject at hand) messages, and because I couldn't resist, have wasted about half a message just talking about our debate.

If you feel that his claims require some kind of proof (and don't want to offer a counter-opinion), well then just leave it alone unless you think the rest of the forum readers are too dumb to arrive at that conclusion as well. Otherwise, let the moderator tag him as flamebait/bullshitter as they have in other forums I've seen closed (no proof, but I promise I've seen them).

Thank you :-)

p.s., have I said I really like the new changes lately :-)

EDIT: You should learn from Manic Smile. He appears to be same (level? whatever its called) as you and always offers a countering opinon. We've gone at it in a forum or two I believe and minus the aggressive posts sometimes, I don't think I've ever seen him sit there in a message and post 'Proof Plz, Proof Plz' lol. I'm not saying I agree with you Manic...at all...on anything lol. You do have your technique down though :-)

For someone INITIATING a debate (because that's what this is) he can't just come out here and say "this is a fact and this is a fact and this is a fact because i say so".

He stated what he thought was the truth, and I kindly asked for some evidence to back up those claims. This is how things go.

lol, I like the way you quoted me :-)

Yeah, I think he had some valid points, but blew some things out of proportion. After looking through the forums, I'm surprised the mods didn't merge this into another thread. There have been a few others along the same lines as this I think. Of course they are probably playing the new content right now instead.

I don't mean to come across as a hard ass if I did. I just get out of control sometimes with certain things (kinda like when I read technical forums and see RTFM all over the place, that really drives me up a wall lol).

Fame and rank currently show your experience and success in only in HoH. I feel this is a failing since GvG is the primary form of PvP for many players. While the metagame's are slightly different, there isn't this huge gulf you would imply in your statement. Ranger spike very similar, the warrior/orders combo exists in both, degen is the same, smite is the same. If anything GvG is more complicated since you have more area to cover, NPCs and split options. Unless you split constantly, straight up fighting is basically the same as most tombs battes. Relic running is similar to flag runs and altar holding and seiging is like holding at the guild lord. Obviously individual maps are different, but ignoring a players entire GvG experience is "stupid". 90 GvG wins is at least equivalent to Rank 3.

Many GvGers have given up on tombs, which is sad. The "rank rift" in the community is not productive. Calling me stupid for wanting to change this, is less productive. GvG already has guild rank, but when was the last time someone used their guild name to get into a random group. An iq new player may be horrible, but be a friend of someone founding the guild (for example).

I thought I'd post this since it relates to both sides of this topic. If you have no rank, or if you have a ton of rank, consider doing a few runs in the tombs with n00bs just so that they get a chance to look at it. I know its kinda late for the event this weekend, but it's an idea for regular players as well as future events.

I went to team arenas to help new players get some wins so they can open the heroes' ascent. I also went to heroes ascent (again, I'm only rank 2 so this is no big burden) and announce4d that anyone that wants a taste of 8v8 play can invite themselves to my party and I'll take them on an intro run. This wouldn't be a bad idea for people even with high rank/fame to do every now and then (and those without any - don't be picky because you're going to have a hard time yourselves getting into a group).

They never made it past the Underworld (usually killed the AI test), but at least they got the 'shock and awe' of a big battle :-) I think that goes a long way. Plus, who knows... maybe there's such a thing as karma lol..

/signed I've always agreed with this, but, take it one step futher and have two HOH type arenas for 8x8. One for the organized teams and one for random teams.

I too believe the FUN factor would be greater and more and more people would play PVP if they could get into something more exciting than 4x4's (i'm bored silly with 4x4's). I wish there were 16x16's and 32x32's myself. A real war a real random war of fun and laughter and even something like BF1942 where you respawn when you die and jump right back into it again. BF1942 had the best MP pvp feature of any game I've played and I always used to hate pvp.

THEN if one 8x8 team were to win 10 in a row they get to goto organized HOH battlefield (not specifically HOH, but, in the tournament ladder), like they do random 4x4 to team arenas when they win 10 in a row.

Sounds like instant chaos and a whole load of fun for casual players like me.

/signed

Doesn't anyone find it ironic that one of the reasons people want this 'random tombs' is so they can get Fame casually?

If you are against elitism, why do you want Fame at all? If all you want is the "fun and chaos of random 8v8", then you shouldn't need Fame. But if what you really want is some cheap Fame so you can get a cool emote to show off to your PVE only guildmates (which is what I suspect this is all about) then I have nothing good to say about you at all.

I don't want fame & I don't have a opinion either way whether or not HA should go random but...it sure would be nice if there was a 8v8 RA.

Okay, proof on the population that is playing less tombs: There is way less districts then there was at the beginning (I remember 10+ districts on game launch) and they had to reduce the number of teams to 2 because the game found it hard to six or three teams to face each other.

Look at the guild ladder and you'll see the same guilds at the top. Surely if there was many people PvPing that we would be seeing new competition, right?

Yep I have to agree HoH pvping has gone way down. When I first started districts were packed, but, now they have thinned out a lot and PUGs are practically a rarity. Too many picky people and everyone is only concerned with winning (or thinking they can) I get so tickled at these must have vent and/or ts and they're getting their butts stomped just like those that don't have ts or vent. laffin In fact I won all of my fame in groups without ts or vent, never won a single time in a ts or vent group. Silence is better because you can concentrate better. I even turn down my sound when in arena's. Just like a blind or deaf mans other senses increase when they don't have the function of those others, they become more keen to hearing in the case of being blind and more keen on seeing in the case of being deaf.

This may be a half-truth, though I do recall Gaile Gray (or some other Anet admin) posting here refuting logic like that--that they'd come up with a more efficient way to deal with district size and creation and such. I'll see if I can find the post.

because every single guild in the top 10 has been there since release i no rite

We -do- see new competition. Perhaps not in the utmost top of the ranks very often, but from what I can tell (which is just guild names, mind you, I'm not personally familiar with who's a smurf and such) we see new people all the time.

And for the record, that is pretty much the dumbest thing I have ever read.

Edit: Also for the record: MarkyX, I have nothing against you. Also, as I stated when I found you in the Comp Arena (: D) I have nothing against the idea of a random 8v8 arena. But there's honestly no legitimate reason to replace HA with one.

i stopped reading after page 2 so excuse me if I'm repeating someone.
sounds like the OP's real problem is PUG's not wanting him because he wants to avoid FOTM's or he wants to play with sub par toons based on the current meta-game and his only imagined solution is a random 8v8 in hopes of the randomness will allow him to win a higher percent of matches.

Hero's Ascent is a place where you have to think of builds containing 64 skills and a strategy of using the skills to complete an objective and this is an absolute minimum requirement to be competitive. iway is a perfect example of this, you can have some success by just bringing the correct 64 skills and have no strategy, teamwork or coordination. this is exactly what makes iway so prevalent in tombs. IWAY is not overpowered since its effectiveness hardly changes regardless of the skill of the players using it, the strategy or coordination.(IMO this makes iway a tier 3 build) some builds that may seam sub-par to less experienced players can absolutely dominate when used by skilled players using a well thought out plan and proper coordination.

back to the OP's real problem.
find a like minded guild that is willing to keep trying fresh and exciting builds or start your own guild with that thought defining your guild.

and stop thinking of HA builds 8 skills at a time, designing a 64 skill (any 64) build that has some type of theme even random (IE: ready for anything), work on a strategy to use the build to its maximum potential and make sure your group can communicate during the battle and all will be well.

making Hero's Ascent random?

the only positive i can see out of that is that the mass of newbies who would otherwise be unable to get into groups will be able to play

however, making it random will make it into another newbie arena
the standard in hero's has, for a long time now, been at a low and this will kill the competition in it completely... leaving only, GvG? i don't think ANet will ever do that

and umm all the decent PUGs are usually smart enough to be in international districts now, American Districts are IWAY/newbie havens

overpowered? hahahhaha.... and the reason why people copy builds is that they are unable to come up with good ones themselves. they see a successful build and immediately want to copy it, however it's rarely the build but how you play it that wins for you

ie. newbie fest. enter monk casting... ownage spells like retribution, holy wrath, symbol of wrath. enter 55hp monk to annoy everyone because you know they aren't smart enough to bring enchantment removal

do you honestly think that 'veterans' will stick around if it became random? lol... considering how frustrating CA is already, imagine the frustration doubled with 7 other players on your team who are most probably clueless, tactically and strategically


hahahahaha CHALLENGING hahahahaha

/signed

I have alot of experience, but i have a low rank. Its harder to get into good groups with low rank. I just dont do hoh enough to build my rank up. There is plenty of fun stuff that i like in the game, so i never worried about trying to buld my rank up. So when i do want to do hoh it just makes it harder. Thats why they should have a random area for ppl like me.

As has been said 1000 times so far in this thread: If you can't get a PUG in what you consider to be a timely fashion, then I suggest asking your guildmates to form a team. If your guild isn't active enough, or your guildmates don't want to Tombs as much as you, might I suggest you find a guild whose goals are closer to your own. And if you don't want to join a guild, might I suggest you find a different game.

I said i cant get a GOOD group. I can get a group, but i always end up with idiots or retards. Every now and then i do get a decent group. My guild is mainly pve, so alot of them dont do hoh a whole lot. I also said that i didnt do it that often either, thats why im in a pve guild. Its just hard to get a GOOD group when i do feel like playing hoh. THats why i think this is a good idea for people like me who only do hoh occasionaly and are in a pve guild.

Making Tombs (let me call it like that, it's an old habit :P ) become random is awfully bad idea. One's ability to form a team VS one's luck to be in a good team? ANOTHER kind of Tombs for random 8vs8 would be good, as soon as it doesn't influence divine favour.

BUT!!

I totally agree with the part about Tombs (HoH) losing points!!!
I experienced it too.
I consider myself to be a rather good and quite experienced PvP player. And, well, I stopped doing Tombs looong time ago. Why? As it was said, it takes hours to form a barely acceptable team, and they you get owned by some iway spammer team. No fun at all.
The only players who can enjoy Tombs are those in PvP based guilds that do mostly that kind of challenge. What is left for people like me, then, who do not wish to enter a PvP guild (I'm one of those who originally bought GW for the PvE, alas!) but who would like to do some Tombs every now and then? That's why I completely cancelled the HoH from my GW options, and that's why I only stick to GvG as a guest for other guilds or to 4vs4 arena PvP with my own guild members.

So, the point of all my blahblah is: HoH really really needs a restyling. It's one of the most important things of GW yet it's the one that the minor number of players can really enjoy.

So let me get this right. You have trouble getting a good group, so the solution you advocate is making other groups worse by randomizing teams. Does that make sense to you?

While this might be a solution for those players who mainly want to do PvP in general or HA in particular, there could be a thousand reasons why changing guilds is not on option or not desireable. It's particularly a problem for players loving both PvE and PvP. Most guilds seem to be either leaning towards PvE or towards PvP but not both. Some people don't want to give up one for the other. Also, sometimes people are in guilds made of real life friends. And so on. Telling people to change guilds is like curing the symptoms while not addressing the true source of the problem. The problem is not the guilds, it's the fact that HA is quite closed to unranked people who want to do it in PUGs. Which is completely legit. HA is not meant to be another version of Guild vs Guild combat. HA is also not meant to be for hardcore PvP players only. THAT problem really needs to be addressed, IMO.

On game launch their district spawning code was much weaker. You'd oftentimes have a dozen districts, but only 3-4 of those had anyone in them - district 1 and 2 are usually busy, and the highest numbered one with organized teams trying to avoid the traffic. The number of districts continued to increase until it was reset by a patch - the number of active districts never really changed.


They never needed to reduce the number of teams on that map. It was reduced to 2 because a sizable majority of players had never gotten past that map. Even if they did they'd usually get crushed on the other 6-way. Basically the lower tiers of tombs were concentrated upon a couple of maps, and they wanted people to be able to see different maps more often and gain fame faster (the 30 minute matches on those lower tier 6-ways really hurt the mediocre teams who often wasted a lot of time just to die there), so they reduced the numbers. It was certainly good for building up fame, though it has made some of those maps rather boring.

Peace,
-CxE

Ok, I'll play the bad guy. Players who are members of PvE guilds but can't bear to leave, who don't take PvP seriously and just want to drop by now and then, who want to play their pet characters instead of fitting into a build, are not the kinds of players that make up good teams. They are players that teams often win despite, not because of, and it is absolutely rational and fair that the 'good' teams avoid randoms like the plague.

When a team of weekend warriors goes into tombs with their pet builds and minimal, if any, coordination, and gets smoked by iWay, well, that's what is *supposed* to happen. The better team with the better build won, what's wrong with that?

I'm not going to pretend that the rank system is perfectly fair, and there are some very good, unranked players out there. But, reality check time - if you're in that PvE guild and can't bear to leave, if you won't change your character to fit a team build, if you don't even spend enough time in PvP zones to make friends and contacts for organized groups, then *you probably suck.* If you can't or won't to put the time or effort into being good then why should anyone care when you're not picked for the team?

We understand that you have different priorities. I can sympathize with wanting to stick with your friends in a guild that you might even have ties to outside of Guild Wars. We know that 'real life' gets in the way and you have a job to do during the day and a family to take care of and other, more important things to worry about. We're aware that you've put a lot of time into your unique character creation and are very proud of him. I, at least, respect all of that. What *you* need to understand is that I don't care about any of that in the slightest. When I am forming a group, I am looking for players with the talent, experience, and attitude that gives us the best chance to win. If we're not on the same page, you're not getting an invite, and you're going to have to stick with a team that has the same kinds of hangups as yourself.

You might not like your peer group - hell, it's obvious that many of you don't - but if you can't make the effort to change that for yourself, why should anyone else make it for you? Tombs isn't so competitive that you need to be a great player to be successful. Indeed I know of several mediocre players who have done fine and gotten themselves into good situations simply because they were persistent and wanted to be there. You can too - if it's what you want.

Peace,
-CxE

<On the subject of making Heroes' Ascent random 8v8 - while I think it would be hilarious to watch 8 random players try and run relics, or flail to form a coherent strategy on the dais maps, I feel that would grow old quickly and we'd be left with a PvP area even more worthless than random 4v4 arena.>

To the meat of the matter as usual, Ensign.

Thats totaly me, i consider myself a mediocre player with a maxed out frinds list to overcome my shortcomings.

because of my huge friends list i seldem have to do pug's and my rank is proof. i've only been doing tombs for about 3 months and i'm allready spamming a wolf.
i have however spent a lot of time in random and team arena's where i added lots of people to my frinds list.

we have a group now of about 15 mediocre people who do HA regularly playing from a small list of mediocre yet well thought out/well practice builds. using a meciocre strategy and really great comunications. and just 2 weeks ago we held hall 5 strait.

anyways, if pve is your thing and you only plan on doing HA ocasionaly a friends list is the way to go.

This quote might be accurate before Faction was implemented, before Spirit Spam got 'nerfed', but now-a-days the ladder is constantly changing. The Valandor weren't there a month 2 months ago. Girls On Top [BoA] came into the top 20 about 1 week before the ladder got locked.

The ladder is constantly changing. It sounds like you don't look at it.

Infact, I'm pretty sure numbers 11-20 haven't been in the top 20 before this current month. Or, atleast, I've never seen any of them there.

Also, the only guilds currently on there who were also on the top 20 'Pre-Season', War Machine and ZPZG have atleast 12-1 win ratios (both over 100 games played).

An 8v8 random arena may be a good idea. But turning the only organized non-guild PvP into a double sized random arena is a

I can never understand how adding a little randomness can hurt the level of competitiveness in HoH. What OP wants is one simple way to team up random players who don't have a team, NOT taking away the current option of forming a team on your own. If your pvp guilds are so good, then there's nothing to fear from PUG's, right? Or are you so used to same enemy build types that you fear something unpredictable showing up at your door step screwing your "perfect" battleplan?

And stop denying access to newbs in this game. They have as much right to every part of this game as veterans do. The best pvpers in the world won't save a game in which no newb is coming. And unfortunately I can only see the rank threshold going up, not coming down. Guess how many new players will come to Heros Ascent if the minimal requirement for joining is rank 9. Don't worry, if nothing changes now, that day will surely come.