Rune Farming - Ettin exploitation
holden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murder In China
I prefer farming Forest Titans, it seems to me they give better gold drops than Ettins nowadays.
are you saying you solo these things?
are you saying you solo these things?
Amsterdam
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdhoney44
You dont have to be a warrior to farm ettins in this area..I take my MM all the time through here and use the mergoyles and avicara at the begining for raising minions. I also use the overabundant amount of lvl5 lynx for bodies. Makes things very simple as long as you pack at least one dmg skill to start out with.
You can farm these guys with Rangers, Necros, and warriors, other builds may be possible as well, trapping works for rangers. I have done it with MM build, I just find the warrior to be faster.
Murder In China
Quote:
Originally Posted by holden
are you saying you solo these things?
Not with a warrior, but yes.
Ken Dei
W/Mo Titan Farming Build:
Skills:
1. Adrenal attack skill
2. Watch Yourself!
3. Mending (Yes the noob skill)
4. Dolyak Sig, or Endure Pain if you don't have the Sig.
5. Balthazar's Spirit
6. Mark of Protection (Elite)
7. Healing Breeze
8. Shielding Hands
Attribute Pts:
Weapon Skill: 13 (or whatever req. you have)
Tactics: 7
Strength: 8
Healing Prayers: 8
Protection Prayers: 7
Upon leaving town, cast Balthazar's Spirit on yourself, wait for energy, then cast Mending. You should have anywhere from 10-15 energy now.
Wind Born Titans: These are a matter of sheer endurance, they blind you and you'll just have to endure it. The good news is eventually they cast Chain Lightning to much and exhaust themselfs to no energy, therefore they stop blinding you and you can kill them quickly. Kill these, first.
Water Born Titans: These are a matter of focus. Watch them carefully, even if they are not targeted. Be sure to identify when they're about to cast the skill Maelstrom, it appears as a water crystal in front of them. Then do one of the following things
-Move, move away or to the side till you're out of range of the attack point.
-Tank, if all your defense skills are charged, not likely, use them and maelstrom dmg is reduced to 0. Or if you have Mark of protection charged, use it, good tactic for a fast health+energy regen is to stand in a maelstrom with this on.
Kill these Titans, 2nd
Earth Born Titans: These are a matter of defense and healing. These Titans spit out dmg fast, using Stone Daggers, but if you keep your defense up by alternating skills, and keep healing breeze on you, they become an energy regen factory. Kill these Last.
Combos:
Titans are easy to kill individually, but in groups they can be lethal to the unfocused or unpracticed player. It's best to take on only groups of two and three to begin with, then when proficient with the build try four.
Key points:
-2-3 second glances: watch your skills, health and most of all your mini map, patrols are lethal.
-Watch Water Borns: Practice this skill at all cost, most deaths are because of a surprise Maelstrom.
Loot:
-Titan Armor, usually Normal or Purple. (1 Steel, 6-7 iron)
-Wands, Staves, Bows, usually blue (1 Steel (wands), 9-11 wood (staves and bows))
-Molten Claw, salvages to granite slabs, I just like them as trophies.
-Magmas Shield, Strength Sheilds, Awesome Design, usually normal, req. 9, 10
-Magmas Arm, Hammer.
-Gold, usually 100+ per pile
-Other Random Loot, usually anything that deviates from the list above is very good in mods, req., etc.
My best record is 4 titans at once:
2 Wind, Water, Earth
2 Water, Wind, Earth
Skills:
1. Adrenal attack skill
2. Watch Yourself!
3. Mending (Yes the noob skill)
4. Dolyak Sig, or Endure Pain if you don't have the Sig.
5. Balthazar's Spirit
6. Mark of Protection (Elite)
7. Healing Breeze
8. Shielding Hands
Attribute Pts:
Weapon Skill: 13 (or whatever req. you have)
Tactics: 7
Strength: 8
Healing Prayers: 8
Protection Prayers: 7
Upon leaving town, cast Balthazar's Spirit on yourself, wait for energy, then cast Mending. You should have anywhere from 10-15 energy now.
Wind Born Titans: These are a matter of sheer endurance, they blind you and you'll just have to endure it. The good news is eventually they cast Chain Lightning to much and exhaust themselfs to no energy, therefore they stop blinding you and you can kill them quickly. Kill these, first.
Water Born Titans: These are a matter of focus. Watch them carefully, even if they are not targeted. Be sure to identify when they're about to cast the skill Maelstrom, it appears as a water crystal in front of them. Then do one of the following things
-Move, move away or to the side till you're out of range of the attack point.
-Tank, if all your defense skills are charged, not likely, use them and maelstrom dmg is reduced to 0. Or if you have Mark of protection charged, use it, good tactic for a fast health+energy regen is to stand in a maelstrom with this on.
Kill these Titans, 2nd
Earth Born Titans: These are a matter of defense and healing. These Titans spit out dmg fast, using Stone Daggers, but if you keep your defense up by alternating skills, and keep healing breeze on you, they become an energy regen factory. Kill these Last.
Combos:
Titans are easy to kill individually, but in groups they can be lethal to the unfocused or unpracticed player. It's best to take on only groups of two and three to begin with, then when proficient with the build try four.
Key points:
-2-3 second glances: watch your skills, health and most of all your mini map, patrols are lethal.
-Watch Water Borns: Practice this skill at all cost, most deaths are because of a surprise Maelstrom.
Loot:
-Titan Armor, usually Normal or Purple. (1 Steel, 6-7 iron)
-Wands, Staves, Bows, usually blue (1 Steel (wands), 9-11 wood (staves and bows))
-Molten Claw, salvages to granite slabs, I just like them as trophies.
-Magmas Shield, Strength Sheilds, Awesome Design, usually normal, req. 9, 10
-Magmas Arm, Hammer.
-Gold, usually 100+ per pile
-Other Random Loot, usually anything that deviates from the list above is very good in mods, req., etc.
My best record is 4 titans at once:
2 Wind, Water, Earth
2 Water, Wind, Earth
berko
Farming Titans with a Warrior would be hard as hell, since Windborn Titans blind you a lot and we all know how usefull warrior is when he's blinded.
Galrash
I farmed the ettins for four days and pulled out six or seven superior vigors as well as a bunch of other superior runes no superior absorbtion though...
Amsterdam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galrash
I farmed the ettins for four days and pulled out six or seven superior vigors as well as a bunch of other superior runes no superior absorbtion though...
Nice on the vigors, I found one last night teaching someone.
Nice on the vigors, I found one last night teaching someone.
Charr Killer
ok here's mine(ettins):
Any axe will work (I don't like Vamp)
i have a nice shield (+38 enchanted/-2 enchanted)
12 axe
8 healing
8 tactics
~8 strength
Cleave {E} (4a) / Eviscerate {E} (5a)
Distracting (?a)
Penetrating (5a) / Executioner's (8a)
Cyclone (5e)
Heal Sig (0)
Mending (<10e)
Sprint (5e) / Healing Breeze (10e)
Balthazar's Spirit (<?e)
I like Penetrating if you have Evis
Executioner's if you have Cleave
If you can get tactics and strength to 8 raise tactics a bit
If your using Breeze bring strength to about 2
Any axe will work (I don't like Vamp)
i have a nice shield (+38 enchanted/-2 enchanted)
12 axe
8 healing
8 tactics
~8 strength
Cleave {E} (4a) / Eviscerate {E} (5a)
Distracting (?a)
Penetrating (5a) / Executioner's (8a)
Cyclone (5e)
Heal Sig (0)
Mending (<10e)
Sprint (5e) / Healing Breeze (10e)
Balthazar's Spirit (<?e)
I like Penetrating if you have Evis
Executioner's if you have Cleave
If you can get tactics and strength to 8 raise tactics a bit
If your using Breeze bring strength to about 2
Thannis
Can an W/N farm ettins?
berko
yes, any warrior can farm ettins. I'm mostly W/N or W/Me and personally I don't even use my secondary proffesion skills.
My stats are
Strength 11+1+3=15
Tactics 10+1=11
Swordsmanship 10+1=11
skills are:
Sprint
Distracting Blow
Dolyak Signet
Watch Yourself
Healing Signet
Desparation Blow
Sever Artery
Gash
15 Strength pretty much gives me constant Dolyak Signet, use Healing signet when necessary and Distracting Blow when Ettins use their healing. You wont be able to stop thier healing signet every time but that doesnt matter, they hould technically die it 30 sec or less.
Yes I don't hava an Elite in there since it really isn't necessary.
PS: this build was based on Kapper's IDS farming build.
My stats are
Strength 11+1+3=15
Tactics 10+1=11
Swordsmanship 10+1=11
skills are:
Sprint
Distracting Blow
Dolyak Signet
Watch Yourself
Healing Signet
Desparation Blow
Sever Artery
Gash
15 Strength pretty much gives me constant Dolyak Signet, use Healing signet when necessary and Distracting Blow when Ettins use their healing. You wont be able to stop thier healing signet every time but that doesnt matter, they hould technically die it 30 sec or less.
Yes I don't hava an Elite in there since it really isn't necessary.
PS: this build was based on Kapper's IDS farming build.
glove1038
is it possible to farm ettins with my 55 monk??
Kaguya
Quote:
Originally Posted by glove1038
is it possible to farm ettins with my 55 monk??
Ettins don't break enchants nor have health degen, so I'd suppose.
IF you get to the ettins that is, coming from Beetletun are mesmer tengus who break enchants and give nice health degens... Heading north from Bergen has mesmer tengus.. Alternate route from Bergen has some skales with health degen+some other spells...
Tho, not sure on how 55 monk works, but those might pose a problem.
IF you get to the ettins that is, coming from Beetletun are mesmer tengus who break enchants and give nice health degens... Heading north from Bergen has mesmer tengus.. Alternate route from Bergen has some skales with health degen+some other spells...
Tho, not sure on how 55 monk works, but those might pose a problem.
ShazBo
yes it will infact it's pretty easy to farm with them there. you can also do it with MMs as well.
glove1038
ok, thank you i will give it a shot tonight and tell you how it worked out
Former Ruling
Why waste a 55 monk on Ettins >_>
Rhuobhe
If you head out of Lions Arch, up the east side you can get to the ettins with a 55 monk/necro
I'd say it's a lot slower than a warrior, but I haven't tried it since the death of Area-Effect spells on 11/10
Try scourge healing, it might cancel out thier healing signets.
I'd say it's a lot slower than a warrior, but I haven't tried it since the death of Area-Effect spells on 11/10
Try scourge healing, it might cancel out thier healing signets.
ShazBo
Ya but what if he doesn't have a warrior that can handle the pressure ie: W/E or W/N then a 55 will do. I mean yes a warrior is the fastest for this type of farming. But there are other builds that can handle this job if needed. MM, SS, 55 monk and acouple of others.
And why are you saying "Why waste a 55 monk on Ettins". What is there a expiry date on his account for his monk? If he's going to spend the time farming for runes and then going to UW afterwards he might as well use his 55.
And why are you saying "Why waste a 55 monk on Ettins". What is there a expiry date on his account for his monk? If he's going to spend the time farming for runes and then going to UW afterwards he might as well use his 55.
curserwigger
Hello. I have been farming the ettins and have gotten many minor and major runes so far but no sups. My question though is I have those dang titan quests on my warrior and the ascalon settlement has titans everywhere. Anyone know if the ettins still spawn in the settlement area or am I stuck farming the first area by beetletun until I finish the defend kryta quest? Thanks in advance.
sledgeunderhill
You can always abandon the Glint quest and get it again.
Regarding the 55 monk question. I farmed ettins with a high-health Mo/W using axe skills - a mirror of the W/Mo build, except that I could get mending to 4 pips. It's definately slower than a warrior, but you can spam energy skills with abandon due to your higher regen.
Since I developed a warrior on my second account, I don't have to do the Mo/W thing.
Regarding the 55 monk question. I farmed ettins with a high-health Mo/W using axe skills - a mirror of the W/Mo build, except that I could get mending to 4 pips. It's definately slower than a warrior, but you can spam energy skills with abandon due to your higher regen.
Since I developed a warrior on my second account, I don't have to do the Mo/W thing.
berko
I did this again today, got another Superior Vigor and also Unlocked Superior Expertise, Hammer Mastery and Swordsmanship.... over all not bad for 1 hour work.
Gafgarion
In the past 3 days I've farmed a lot trapping with my ranger and some with my warrior - managed to find 1 Sup Vigor 1 Sup Absorption, and several other major/superiors that needed unlocking.
What really annoys me is the drop fatigue >.< 2-3 runs and the rares just plain disappear !
What really annoys me is the drop fatigue >.< 2-3 runs and the rares just plain disappear !
sh4ft3d
Got superior swordsmanship first run.
glove1038
I tried my 55 monk farming the ettins tonight, and it didnt work out so well, heres why. i could get to the ettin fine without a problem, and then i'd cast all my enchantments and am ready to go. so i'd cast prot spirit and get surounded by ettin. then i'd use shield of judgement and they would get down to half health. but while SOJ was recharging they would use healing sig, and get back to full health, making it impossible to kill them.
Eclair
Gosh, you guys are so lucky =P
So far only a Superior Beastmastery (T_T, why oh why?) and a major vigor and major absorption.
So far only a Superior Beastmastery (T_T, why oh why?) and a major vigor and major absorption.
Batou of Nine
My farming story:
Well ive been playing GW for quite some time now, probably close to when it was first released in stores. And starting my second week of playing, i was sucked into farming. I got real good and farmed numerous locations for nearly 3 months straight! In that time i made a real killing selling great amounts of gold weapons, dyes, etc etc. i stopped for a couple months, out of pure boredom, then got swepted back into things when SF opened up.
After another month of staying away from all forms of farming, i realized i havent EVER found a Superior Vigor or Superior Absorption! I started ettin farming today, and have done it for 4 hours straight now. i admit the rune drops have been frequent but still no Sup Vig or Absorb!!!!!!!
I have gotten lots of superiors so far, everything from A to Z, even tons of major vigs and absorbs.... ARRRRRGH!! You people and your "first try i got XXX" LOL I just wanna be able to unlock it and have a set for my warrior! I guess i have hours and hours ahead of me... Wish me Luck
Hmm maybe ill try that Titan farming idea...
Well ive been playing GW for quite some time now, probably close to when it was first released in stores. And starting my second week of playing, i was sucked into farming. I got real good and farmed numerous locations for nearly 3 months straight! In that time i made a real killing selling great amounts of gold weapons, dyes, etc etc. i stopped for a couple months, out of pure boredom, then got swepted back into things when SF opened up.
After another month of staying away from all forms of farming, i realized i havent EVER found a Superior Vigor or Superior Absorption! I started ettin farming today, and have done it for 4 hours straight now. i admit the rune drops have been frequent but still no Sup Vig or Absorb!!!!!!!
I have gotten lots of superiors so far, everything from A to Z, even tons of major vigs and absorbs.... ARRRRRGH!! You people and your "first try i got XXX" LOL I just wanna be able to unlock it and have a set for my warrior! I guess i have hours and hours ahead of me... Wish me Luck
Hmm maybe ill try that Titan farming idea...
Apple
Yes, it is possible to farm with a 55 hp monk. And quicker than with a w/mo, I think. Yeah, it must be, as you can take out a group of 8 in 2-3 SoJs....
Anyway, build :
Attributes
16 Smiting
9 healing
10 prot
12 divine (this isnt actually needed that much)
Skills
Prot. Spirit - Standard 55hp setup
Healing Breeze - Again, standard
Scourge Healing - Removes the need to interrupt signets. Spam on all surrounding targets.
Shield of Judgement - Your prime damage dealer
Mending - Three pips should do you fine (especially with breeze)
Balth Spirit - Energy
Essence Bond - More energy
Blessed Aura - Lengthening Shield of Judgement
Route
Ok, this is pretty simple. Start from Bergen Hot Springs. Run straight into the skele rangers to your right. Cast prot spirit, breeze and SoJ when you have the energy. Stay alive while SoJ is up, basically. Collect loot. Continue through this valley killing everything, until you reach a SECOND turning to your right. Follow this through, then immediately turn left. You should be seeing Bog Skales. You can't kill these, so do what i do and stick on your second (non 55hp) armour set, and run past them...
The first turning to your right you see, take and you will come up against some Ettins! Try and lure as many as you can (don't worry, you'll be able to kill them ). Kill these, using the battle strategy below. Then continue around the groups of ettins, killing as many as possible in the same fashion, and enter north kryta province. Continue through this district, killing all the ettins (and mergoyles, if you like) in the same fashion, and enter the next district. Just re-enter North Kryta Province from there and do the same run in reverse! I'd advise just entering and re-entering North Kryta Province after you've killed the ettins in Nebo Terrace once, as the drops there DO seem better... I'll put up a map if folks request it...
Battle Strategy
Put up Prot. Spirit, SoJ and breeze. When you have free energy that isnt being used,(you should have a lot, if you have many ettins hitting you) spam scourge healing on surrounding ettins.
By the way, the credit for using Scourge Healing in this build should not be given to me, but to my guildmate (genius by the way )
Edit : By the way, be sure to kill everything ON THE WAY to the ettins, as they often yield REALLY good drops. Gold Dead Bows, Skele shields etc... And runes, too!
Rhuobhe, just so you know : I didnt steal your idea for using scourge by the way
Anyway, build :
Attributes
16 Smiting
9 healing
10 prot
12 divine (this isnt actually needed that much)
Skills
Prot. Spirit - Standard 55hp setup
Healing Breeze - Again, standard
Scourge Healing - Removes the need to interrupt signets. Spam on all surrounding targets.
Shield of Judgement - Your prime damage dealer
Mending - Three pips should do you fine (especially with breeze)
Balth Spirit - Energy
Essence Bond - More energy
Blessed Aura - Lengthening Shield of Judgement
Route
Ok, this is pretty simple. Start from Bergen Hot Springs. Run straight into the skele rangers to your right. Cast prot spirit, breeze and SoJ when you have the energy. Stay alive while SoJ is up, basically. Collect loot. Continue through this valley killing everything, until you reach a SECOND turning to your right. Follow this through, then immediately turn left. You should be seeing Bog Skales. You can't kill these, so do what i do and stick on your second (non 55hp) armour set, and run past them...
The first turning to your right you see, take and you will come up against some Ettins! Try and lure as many as you can (don't worry, you'll be able to kill them ). Kill these, using the battle strategy below. Then continue around the groups of ettins, killing as many as possible in the same fashion, and enter north kryta province. Continue through this district, killing all the ettins (and mergoyles, if you like) in the same fashion, and enter the next district. Just re-enter North Kryta Province from there and do the same run in reverse! I'd advise just entering and re-entering North Kryta Province after you've killed the ettins in Nebo Terrace once, as the drops there DO seem better... I'll put up a map if folks request it...
Battle Strategy
Put up Prot. Spirit, SoJ and breeze. When you have free energy that isnt being used,(you should have a lot, if you have many ettins hitting you) spam scourge healing on surrounding ettins.
By the way, the credit for using Scourge Healing in this build should not be given to me, but to my guildmate (genius by the way )
Edit : By the way, be sure to kill everything ON THE WAY to the ettins, as they often yield REALLY good drops. Gold Dead Bows, Skele shields etc... And runes, too!
Rhuobhe, just so you know : I didnt steal your idea for using scourge by the way
xxreaper008
I enjoy my own build .
its for a W/E
i use
Hundred Blades
Conjour Flame
Helaing Sig
Dolyak Sig
Armor of earth
those are my ownly skills needed. You can certainly add to make this build better, but i like doing stuff my way
its for a W/E
i use
Hundred Blades
Conjour Flame
Helaing Sig
Dolyak Sig
Armor of earth
those are my ownly skills needed. You can certainly add to make this build better, but i like doing stuff my way
Crome To Crimson
instead of flurry what about "Berserker Stance"
dont feel no pain
well......in my build i keep flurry on all the time , and berskerer stance is a strength skill + ends when u use a skill.
infective
Just curious, as a W/Mo must we buy any skills or will quests give them all? I guess that goes for any class..
And where the hell can a W/Mo learn healing breeze without buying? Guessing you have to buy.. =/
And where the hell can a W/Mo learn healing breeze without buying? Guessing you have to buy.. =/
berko
I believe you get Healing Breeze as you initial skill, if you switch from another proffesion....
dont feel no pain
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Apple]
Anyway, build :
Attributes
16 Smiting
9 healing
10 prot
12 divine (this isnt actually needed that much)
Skills
Prot. Spirit - Standard 55hp setup
Healing Breeze - Again, standard
Scourge Healing - Removes the need to interrupt signets. Spam on all surrounding targets.
Shield of Judgement - Your prime damage dealer
Mending - Three pips should do you fine (especially with breeze)
Balth Spirit - Energy
Essence Bond - More energy
Blessed Aura - Lengthening Shield of Judgement
Route
Ok, this is pretty simple. Start from Bergen Hot Springs. Run straight into the skele rangers to your right. Cast prot spirit, breeze and SoJ when you have the energy. Stay alive while SoJ is up, basically. Collect loot. Continue through this valley killing everything, until you reach a SECOND turning to your right. Follow this through, then immediately turn left. You should be seeing Bog Skales. You can't kill these, so do what i do and stick on your second (non 55hp) armour set, and run past them...
The first turning to your right you see, take and you will come up against some Ettins! Try and lure as many as you can (don't worry, you'll be able to kill them ). Kill these, using the battle strategy below. Then continue around the groups of ettins, killing as many as possible in the same fashion, and enter north kryta province. Continue through this district, killing all the ettins (and mergoyles, if you like) in the same fashion, and enter the next district. Just re-enter North Kryta Province from there and do the same run in reverse! I'd advise just entering and re-entering North Kryta Province after you've killed the ettins in Nebo Terrace once, as the drops there DO seem better... I'll put up a map if folks request it...
Battle Strategy
Put up Prot. Spirit, SoJ and breeze. When you have free energy that isnt being used,(you should have a lot, if you have many ettins hitting you) spam scourge healing on surrounding ettins.
By the way, the credit for using Scourge Healing in this build should not be given to me, but to my guildmate (genius by the way )
Edit : By the way, be sure to kill everything ON THE WAY to the ettins, as they often yield REALLY good drops. Gold Dead Bows, Skele shields etc... And runes, too!
Rhuobhe, just so you know : I didnt steal your idea for using scourge by the way to be perfectly honest i dont think a 55 monk using smite is faster than a warrior on ettins so if your going 55 (making this build up now)
for just ttins heres one i just made (LOL blue peter)
55 monk/w
12 axe
13 healing (9+3+1)
12 prot (9+3)
rest on devine
zealous axe of enchanting
flurry
disrupting chop
evciarate
prot spirit
live vicasouly
mending
balthzars spirit
sprint
cool thing is u dont acauly have to cast anything but prot spirit
flurry + the live vicasuly = 12 health per sec
should work nicely and can be ran from beatltun
forever
Yes, this is true. Do the change secondary profession quests in desert and when you change to monk, you will get Healing Breeze.
Sir Skullcrasher
using the build from the first page. I got around 16 ettins armor. 5 were gold, 6 were purple, 3 blue and 2 white. The gold armors turn out to be superior fire, superior healing, and divine power. The rest were major runes. I have to say, for my first ever ettins farming, it was fun!
Esuna
I'm doing a few runs myself - and the drops are decent for the ease of the trips. I just have a concern about the anti-farm code. Is it safe to just do once zone between the two groups? Right now I do double zoning: once between the 2 groups, then into Scoundrel's Rise and back, just to be safe. I'm still getting superiors, and the drops seem normal. Is this how you guys do it?
Johno77
I've spent quite a lot of time farming both ettins and griffins and, personally, griffin runs work out far better in terms of time spent and money made/items gained. I suppose it can vary, but consistently i'd say grifs was a better option.
berko
Ettins worked out better for me than griffons. While I didn't get much money from Ettins, I got 3 Superior Vigors, Superior Healing, Superior Protection, Superior Swordsmanship...Hammer Mastery...Expertise...and Death Magic. Also got many major and minor runes and I think I have around 30 Leather Squares, 20 Steel Ingots and 500 Taned Hide. So overall it's more profitable in my opinion.
But I guess it all depends on your luck.
But I guess it all depends on your luck.
Mr.Style
Anyone know if there is any way to trick the anti-farming code (if there actually is one)? I'm not sure if there actually is one, but it seems that on the first run I always get at least two golds and then after that I hardly ever get anything, not even purples our blues. So...does anyone know how to make sure I can get a decent number of good drops each time?
ShazBo
Welllll W/N isn't the best to farm Ettins with. What's you build? Maybe you got something.
Arkantos
Awesome guide, I really like the maps
I usually farm griffons and mount. trolls, which gets very boring. Im going to try ettins soon. Jw, do ettins only use physical attacks?
I usually farm griffons and mount. trolls, which gets very boring. Im going to try ettins soon. Jw, do ettins only use physical attacks?